FROWN Hi guys, what an awesome site! Could anyone tell me whats going on with my stereo installation? I am from Australia, and drive an 87 Holden Commodore. I have installed my HU, 6x9;s, 5", and my amp. I had a pair of 250 watt 8" subbies screwed to the parcel shelf between the 6x9's. I had them hooked up to my 2channel "Alltech" amp, which is 2x 300 watts or 1x 800. This was all good for about an hour or so, then the subbies siezed to perform. I blamed them being a cheap brand, and went and forked out the bucks for some good Clarions. These new subs are 300 watts max. I hooked them up in the same fashion, but wasnt too happy with the results. I fiddled around a bit, and was slightly happier. Then (lol) GRIN i decided to hook the 6x9's up aswell, (yes, to the same amp.) all i heard was crackling, and a couple of thuds. I switched the pwr off, and went up back to see smoke coming from my brand Clarion's!!!! MAD What have i done wrong? Why have i thrown money down the drain? Sorry it's so long.
Thanks in advance guys. THINK
Aaron
Replies (19)
Swez on 07/19/2003 06:40:45
Not an idiot Aaron, just not understanding of what physics are involved here and how to do the job well.
See if you can take the new Clarion's back for a warrantee exchange. Most places will provice that service.
Here's the issue... mounting speaekers to the parcel shelf and using the "boot" for an enclosure will work for speakers designed for "free air" applications. But when using any speaker in free air (no real enclosure) mode, the power handling and sound quality of the speakers are going to be reduced.
Speakers need a certain amount of back pressure to keep the cone from going out of controlled limits. Smaller drivers will also need to be protected against too much bass energy, as this too... can destroy a speaker (sub or otherwise).
WHAT TO DO:
1. Re-access your intentions here first
2. Get the proper gear for the application you need
3. Learn as much as you can about this subject, before you dig a bigger hole and bury more dead speakers
If you want some real bass, plan on buying a real sub(s) to take the power your amp can deliver. You will need to install the sub into some sort of enclosure. The enclosure size will be dictated by the space you have for the box and the physical characteristics of the sub (Thiel/Small parameters) Sealed enclosures are the easiest to work with and a good balance of space VS performance.
We can help you match up your system well to the amp you have now.Just need to know more about the amp you have now (brand, model and specs) a web link will suffice. Then determine how much space you have for your sub enclosure. Then we can help you sort out the details and have a great sounding bass system when done.
Sound good to you? Smile
Swez
PS Not sure what brands and models are common in your area and do you buy retail or off the web? If we know what is available in your area, we can go from there.
azaufc on 07/19/2003 11:52:01
Wow! That was quick Swez, thanks. You know your stuff pretty damn well dont you? First i will say that your friendly help is greatly appreciated by me, and i'm sure all others seeking your wisdom. SMILE
I will start by aksing you why it was that the subbies blew, only after i hooked the 6x9's up to the amp aswell. I would have thought this would mean less power going to the subbies, therefore giving them a break of power input.
The reason i have the 2 8" subbies up on the parcel shelf is because that was the idea i got in my head, and i was determined to do it. I spent many hours making it perfect, and looks great too! I would hate to have to abort my mission now, you should see the job i did Swez, very nice work (shucks)! So is there any way in future to build some type of enclosure under the parcel shelf around them? Is it necissary to put a similar enclosure around speakers?
Also, could you tell me what you mean when you say "bass energy"? Everything i know, and have done is from trial and error, plus help from great guys such as yourself Swez! SMILE So i may seem dumb at times, but maybe a little knowledgable at other times.
As for buying my products, well i am a bargain hunter from hell! I search high and low for the best price i can get things. That be it the web, local paper, chance occasions etc.. I did however get the Clarion subs from an audio retailer at cost price apparantly, so maybe he wouldnt be too happy giving me a warranty on the subs, but i will hope.
The amp i have now is an "Alltec" mosfet power amp, i dont know much about it, other than it is 2 channel 800 watts x1 max and 300 watts x2. I dont know what the dials and knobs do, i just fiddle and listen. On the amp, there is 2 speaker outputs, and one sub out put. I had both subs hooked up on the single sub outlet, was this ok to do? Please let me know guys. Once again, i appreciate all the help i can get and thanks to everyone!!! SMILE
Aaron
p.s Does any one know of any cheap stereo or computer components i could check out?
Swez on 07/19/2003 13:33:04
Well Aaron, I have been in the audio Biz many years... so you do pick up a lot as one goes along.
Your 8" stubbies probably blew due to too much power and cone excursion to these modest woofers. Same thing with the Clarions. When you added the 6x9's to your sub amp, the resistance to each channel dropped by some amount an allowed more power output from the amp, to the speakers. More than they could safely handle in a "free air" install.
Yes, I have heard of guys using the parcel shelf for subs and just building an enclosure that fits the sub and space you have. Tricky... but if you are creative and cleaver... can be done! I have heard of guys using moderate gage plastic serving bowls and just glued them with silicone, onto the bottom of the parcel shelf. Light weight, cheap, small space to give up. Just need the proper airspace in the bowl, to allow the woofer to work its best. If you still plan to use 8's for woofers, about 0.5 - 0.7 liters per sub should be pretty close.
When you replace your 6x9's, they can be "free air" or do the same deal... enclose them as well to prevent excess bass power from over pressurizing your x9's.
As for your amp, am not familiar with that brand. But if like most 2 channel amps, it has high and low pass filters. You'll use the low pass one set somewhere between 80-120 Hz. There are gain controls that convert HU power (1-4 volts) to speaker power which varies with where the gain controls are set. Usually, midpoint is a good place to start and then go louder until distorting is heard, then back off on the gains a tad.
Some amps have a bass boost feature (~45 Hz... up to +12 dB boost) and I rarely recommend using them. Too much low end bass power (bass energy) will destroy smaller woofers.
Not sure what the bass output jack means. Would need to read the manual (or tech notes) to see what this is for. Depending on the function and load parameters of that amp... it may or may not be a good thing to use here.
Now, let's figure out what you can do next to replace the damaged speakers and get a better setup on the next go round. If you find stuff you are interested in, give a weblink and I can review it and make suggestions on if suitable or not, for what you really need... strong 8" woofers... Figure you need something rated for over 200 watts (peak) to each woofer. Much less, and you'll wind up replacing them too.
Swez
PS You are talking to Dr. Cheap when it comes to finding quality products at big discounts. What fun is it to have the great gear if we paid through the nose to get it retail? I too am a real bargain hunter and can really stretch that good ol US green back. We are kin in that sense.
Relax_The_Mind on 07/20/2003 01:15:30
hmmm smoke coming from speaker usually means one thing...
You fried the voice coils....which can happen several ways. being underrated (turning volume up to max with not enough power can fry a coil). The more common way too much power. Hooking up a common ground or common power in a 2-channel (or 4,5,6) setup.
To learn a little more about the basics of car audio and audio in general I have always liked the MTX education section that can be found by clicking on this link http://mtxaudio.com/caraudio/education/.
And yes if you want help on finding good gear to fit just about any reasonable budget you are definately in the right place.
RTM
xplicitblitzboi on 07/21/2003 02:49:40
another great site for basic car audio knowlege is eatel, i've used it many times before and recommend it all the time.
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm
Swez on 07/21/2003 02:59:26
Yep, Eatel is a great site for experienced techies, but for the newbie... may be a bit of a challenge in some advanced sections of the site. But great diagrams and active animations in some of the topics.
So, what have you been chewing on since your last report? Any progress or new thoughts pending?
Swez
azaufc on 07/21/2003 05:11:03
Well, i got the two subs out of the parcel shelf and took them down to the guy and he said "Oh, you've cooked them!" I said, "yeah, they are stuffed can i get a warranty or anything?" He told me that he will ring Clarion and he will test them, and that Clarion dont give refund or warranty if i have cooked them inside. Probably dont like my chances .
I have decided to scout around and look for another two 8"s, and chuck them back on the parcel shelf, but i will endeavour to build some type of enclosure under them, thanks for the tip! Oh and Swez, lol @ your comment about stretching the ol green back, and that we are kin in the bargain aspect, i will keep that in mind.
I have been thinking for future installation guys, how do i know if i have too much power going into the speakers or subs from my amp? I dont really understand what eg: 300 watts @ 4 ohms means. Anyone give me a quick run down on hertz, ohms, watts etc..?
I'll let you know if i can or cant get a warranty.
Thanks again
Aaron
Swez on 07/21/2003 06:35:15
The Eatel site noted earlier is a great place to learn information you have mentioned. It gives both short and detailed info as needed.
When picking out your new subs, you do need to take consideration about how much power you try to feed them. Like goldfish, feed them too much.... they blow up!
A basic review:
Ohms: a unit of measure that indicates how much resistance there is to the flow of electrical current
Watts: a measure of electrical power a device can produce or draw in a circuit. The math... Volts x Current = Watts (power) We often discuss powe ratings of a device in terms of RMS or Peak power. RMS is amount of continous power an amp can put out at a given resistance load (ohms) or how many watts a speaker can take before it reaches the danger zone.
Hertz: Hz for short is a reference to frequency a given device can operate within The higher the Hz numeric value, the higher the tone pitch will be
In your case, getting subs that can produce decent bass at reasonable volume levels may prove a bit more expensive then what you have used to date. It will be important that you choose your next subs based on how much power the amp can put out.
If I recall right, you have an amp that is rated at 300 watts per channel and 800 watts when bridged. I cannot tell if that is a Peak watts number or RMS. If you can tell me the fuse ratings used in that amp, I can calculate the approximate RMS power and Peak watts too. Then , picking up the right power rated subs will be easier... but you have to make an air tight enclosure system for them or you will be right back at the trash can.
At first blush, I would guess you'll need a pair of 4 ohm subs that can handle 300 watts (Peak) or 150 watts (RMS). That's a lot of power to ask from an 8" woofer and it probably will not be cheap either.
Fuse info on your amp please....
Regards,
Swez
azaufc on 07/22/2003 01:13:14
Hi again, the amp is actually 3 channell, sorry about that. It is an Alltec 3300, i have searched for this on the net but cant find anything. Their are two 25 amp fuses on the amp. Could you also tell me if this amp is likely to be able to take the 2 subs, and 2 speakers, or weather i will need to hook another one up?
Thanks alot! SMILE
Aaron
azaufc on 07/22/2003 01:21:11
Me again, i forgot the full model of the amp so here it is in full from what i can read on it. It is Altec AC- 3300. 3 channell mosfett power amp. 2x 300 watts or 1x 800 watts max. two 25 amp fuses on the side of the amp.
Swez on 07/22/2003 06:51:47
Really, Altec is a well known brand of gear for Home and Pro audio gear here in the USA. They use to be called Altec-Lansing, a sister company of JBL. (If it is the same Altec brand)
OK, if this really a 3 channel amp, it looks like you have about 350-400 watts RMS total output from all channels combined.
If this is actually a true 3 channel amp, you will see 3 sets of inputs and outputs, gain controls and crossover filters.... one for each channel. Is this what you see on this amp?
From the information you have presented so far, it appears this amp is either a 2 channel stereo (300 x 2) or can be "bridged" to a single channel output (MONO: 800 x 1) for sub applications. This is a common way to explain a 2 channel amp and its power capabilities.
If a true 3 channel, you can use this amp to power a pair of full range speakers and sub(s) as well. Not a huge amount of power to subs unless in MONO mode.
Can you comment on the number of outputs, inputs and controls mentioned above?
Swez
azaufc on 07/22/2003 23:16:17
I certainly can! GRIN On one side of the amp, their is 1 sub output, and 2 speaker outputs. (Each with L+R) On the other side of the amp their is two RCA inputs, one says: Sub input, the other says Low inout. I have mine in the sub input. Their are three dials on here that say: Bass boost 0db-12db, Sub freq, and the other says low input. Their is also a switch that says sub phase 0deg-180deg. Also button that says Hi pass- On, Off. I dont know what all this stuff means, once i know that i am definately well underway!
Thanks
Aaron
Swez on 07/23/2003 07:25:36
Atta Boy! Now we're getting somewhere. It sounds like this amp is designed as a 2 channel amp for full range use or it can internally bridge the 2 channels for 1 larger sub output application. Without full amp specs, hard to say if it can be used as a true 3 channel amp..
Meaning, channels A & B for full range and a separate channel for a sub applications.
The bass boost will add more bass to the amp output by adding several dB of Low end bass (~45 Hz) . I generally avoid this feature if the system is well designed and installed well... not needed. Set this feature to ZERO.
The Sub frequency dial is your LP filtering crossover. Set this between 80-100 Hz. All frequencies above that, are filtered out.
The phase switch is used to adjust how well the bass hits with the rest of the speakers in the system. A little tweaking of this control can help dial in the best bass match possible. Use the position that makes the bass sound full and deep.
HI Pass off is to disable the HP filter for full range speaker applications. If you use the amp for sub only applications, turn the HP feature off.
Does that cover it all? Also, have you come up with any new 8" sub options yet? One thing we have not discussed, is what ohms these new subbies should be. If you use the amp in bridged bass mode, probably need a pair of 8 ohm subs, wired in parallel to the sub amp output section. These should be easier to find as most home stereo subs are 8 ohms and better brands can handle high power as well.
Just a though... how much space (height) do you have between the parcel shelf and boot flooring? (under the sub lips) I have an idea on how to isolate your subs in an enclosure using 8-10" diameter tubes, sealed under each sub. Just need to know how long the tube can be to get the proper air space for each sub.
Please advise...
Swez
azaufc on 07/23/2003 09:12:08
You are a hero Swez! Is their no end to your help and wisdom? Do you feel like a doctor, that saves people's lives, and then feels good? You should!
Everyone needs help at something, it's just a matter of WHO is willing to spend the time and help. So thankyou, and thanks to all the admins! You should all feel great for your deeds.
I will measure the distance for you at next chance, i look forward to hearing your ideas. I have a few myself, i may be able to combine yours, mine, and any other ideas to suit my needs.
Aaron
ttocs on 07/23/2003 17:49:09
also I have to ask. Did you cut a hole in the shelf for the speakers to "breath" through? You could have also done damage to the speakers if you had them mounted to a solid area of the shelf.
How did you tune the amp? The best method is to turn the amp all the way down, and then turn the deck up to 3/4 full volume. Now adj the gain on the amp, While playing a cd you are familiar with. Tune it so that the speaker us almost clipping(popping or generally starting to sound bad). I say this as alot of people thing the gain is just a volume, and crank it all the way up...
Swez on 07/23/2003 20:00:08
Thanks for the kuddos there Aaron... nice to get positive feedback as we all try real hard to help people here on the board. Sometimes it actually works too.
Hey, get creative.... look outside the box for solutions and dare to be different. It does help to get outsider opinions at times. We all have our limits.
Also, ttock made a key suggestion for setting up your gear. The goal is clean, clear sound at a volume the system can tolerate. Knowing how to get this right takes practice and a good ear.... but most get it right in short order.
About subs in your area... what brands are typically available to you? Do you have online shopping and product search engines to research items of interest. If yes, flip a few web links back and I'll poke around and see if I can find you a few subs that might fit your needs.
ttock: FYI... He did cut holes in the parcel shelf and ran a pair of 8" subs in "free air" install. The first set of subs died as a result of over excursion and too much power while the second pair could not take the power and smoked the coils. Has a 2/3 channel Altec amp, ~400 RMS when bridged.
Evilsizer on 08/5/2003 05:25:55
hey swez,
so far as to what i have found is that the "Altec Lansing" car amps have the names as i have type with the modle starting with ALA i have a few of them..... im tring to put together a system but not sure what subs to get... As for what azaufc if his amp just says Altec on it with a cirlce around the c it is not Altec Lansing. i know cause i have found some on ebay...... i hope yall might be able to help me figure out what subs to get .. im looking at some not sure which ones though...... here is a quick list of the amps i have (3) Altec Lansing 200 watt amps (as far as i have found the wattage rating on older amps is in wattage RMS so im looking at 200watt rms) (1) Altec Lansing 20 watt amp..... i use the 20watt amp to push a single 8ohm 10inch rated at 100watts max and it pushed it quiet well to my suprise.. im looking at an infinity 10inch or 12 im thinking the reference series... or a rockford fosage HE series 10 or 12.... i was looking for 8's but cant find the RF HE's and infinity does not make them anymore.... any suggestions for subs or will the amps be able to power the infinity's...... Note the 200watt amps 100x2@4ohms or 120x2@2ohms or 1x200@4ohms... at wattage rms pulls 17amps im not sure though if it means in brigded mono or in 2channle mode as the box does not say and there is no manuel as i got these 3 off ebay quiet cheap under $50 for each....the amps have (2) 20amp fuses... so im thinking its in 2channel mode...... i want good tight and clean bass so i plan on using a sealed box...
Swez on 08/5/2003 08:06:07
Yeah, seem like you found some of the older A-L's that were around a few years back. Good find at those prices.
If you are only planning to use a single sub here (recommended) you can bridge this amp to MONO and run it to a single 4 ohm sub.
If the amp is good at 2 ohms in 2 channel mode, it will only take a 4 ohm load (or higher) when you bridge the amp MONO. Figure about 240 watts RMS this way and yes, Infinity Refs 10 or 12" will take that much power in the right enclosure design.
Have a look at: http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/Infinity/infinity_Reference.htm
Cannot beat the price huh for Infinity grade subs?
Swez
Evilsizer on 08/6/2003 00:58:04
yea its funny since one of them still had the retail tag on it priced at $299.... i was like wow.... but about the infinity ref. i was looking at the new ones that look like the perfects ...... also though are there any 2ohm dvc subs that you know of i have not been able to find any was looking at those since that would give me 120x2=240 instead of 200 with a svc 4ohm... thanks for the help
Thanks in advance guys. THINK
Aaron
Replies (19)
Swez on 07/19/2003 06:40:45
Not an idiot Aaron, just not understanding of what physics are involved here and how to do the job well.
See if you can take the new Clarion's back for a warrantee exchange. Most places will provice that service.
Here's the issue... mounting speaekers to the parcel shelf and using the "boot" for an enclosure will work for speakers designed for "free air" applications. But when using any speaker in free air (no real enclosure) mode, the power handling and sound quality of the speakers are going to be reduced.
Speakers need a certain amount of back pressure to keep the cone from going out of controlled limits. Smaller drivers will also need to be protected against too much bass energy, as this too... can destroy a speaker (sub or otherwise).
WHAT TO DO:
1. Re-access your intentions here first
2. Get the proper gear for the application you need
3. Learn as much as you can about this subject, before you dig a bigger hole and bury more dead speakers
If you want some real bass, plan on buying a real sub(s) to take the power your amp can deliver. You will need to install the sub into some sort of enclosure. The enclosure size will be dictated by the space you have for the box and the physical characteristics of the sub (Thiel/Small parameters) Sealed enclosures are the easiest to work with and a good balance of space VS performance.
We can help you match up your system well to the amp you have now.Just need to know more about the amp you have now (brand, model and specs) a web link will suffice. Then determine how much space you have for your sub enclosure. Then we can help you sort out the details and have a great sounding bass system when done.
Sound good to you? Smile
Swez
PS Not sure what brands and models are common in your area and do you buy retail or off the web? If we know what is available in your area, we can go from there.
azaufc on 07/19/2003 11:52:01
Wow! That was quick Swez, thanks. You know your stuff pretty damn well dont you? First i will say that your friendly help is greatly appreciated by me, and i'm sure all others seeking your wisdom. SMILE
I will start by aksing you why it was that the subbies blew, only after i hooked the 6x9's up to the amp aswell. I would have thought this would mean less power going to the subbies, therefore giving them a break of power input.
The reason i have the 2 8" subbies up on the parcel shelf is because that was the idea i got in my head, and i was determined to do it. I spent many hours making it perfect, and looks great too! I would hate to have to abort my mission now, you should see the job i did Swez, very nice work (shucks)! So is there any way in future to build some type of enclosure under the parcel shelf around them? Is it necissary to put a similar enclosure around speakers?
Also, could you tell me what you mean when you say "bass energy"? Everything i know, and have done is from trial and error, plus help from great guys such as yourself Swez! SMILE So i may seem dumb at times, but maybe a little knowledgable at other times.
As for buying my products, well i am a bargain hunter from hell! I search high and low for the best price i can get things. That be it the web, local paper, chance occasions etc.. I did however get the Clarion subs from an audio retailer at cost price apparantly, so maybe he wouldnt be too happy giving me a warranty on the subs, but i will hope.
The amp i have now is an "Alltec" mosfet power amp, i dont know much about it, other than it is 2 channel 800 watts x1 max and 300 watts x2. I dont know what the dials and knobs do, i just fiddle and listen. On the amp, there is 2 speaker outputs, and one sub out put. I had both subs hooked up on the single sub outlet, was this ok to do? Please let me know guys. Once again, i appreciate all the help i can get and thanks to everyone!!! SMILE
Aaron
p.s Does any one know of any cheap stereo or computer components i could check out?
Swez on 07/19/2003 13:33:04
Well Aaron, I have been in the audio Biz many years... so you do pick up a lot as one goes along.
Your 8" stubbies probably blew due to too much power and cone excursion to these modest woofers. Same thing with the Clarions. When you added the 6x9's to your sub amp, the resistance to each channel dropped by some amount an allowed more power output from the amp, to the speakers. More than they could safely handle in a "free air" install.
Yes, I have heard of guys using the parcel shelf for subs and just building an enclosure that fits the sub and space you have. Tricky... but if you are creative and cleaver... can be done! I have heard of guys using moderate gage plastic serving bowls and just glued them with silicone, onto the bottom of the parcel shelf. Light weight, cheap, small space to give up. Just need the proper airspace in the bowl, to allow the woofer to work its best. If you still plan to use 8's for woofers, about 0.5 - 0.7 liters per sub should be pretty close.
When you replace your 6x9's, they can be "free air" or do the same deal... enclose them as well to prevent excess bass power from over pressurizing your x9's.
As for your amp, am not familiar with that brand. But if like most 2 channel amps, it has high and low pass filters. You'll use the low pass one set somewhere between 80-120 Hz. There are gain controls that convert HU power (1-4 volts) to speaker power which varies with where the gain controls are set. Usually, midpoint is a good place to start and then go louder until distorting is heard, then back off on the gains a tad.
Some amps have a bass boost feature (~45 Hz... up to +12 dB boost) and I rarely recommend using them. Too much low end bass power (bass energy) will destroy smaller woofers.
Not sure what the bass output jack means. Would need to read the manual (or tech notes) to see what this is for. Depending on the function and load parameters of that amp... it may or may not be a good thing to use here.
Now, let's figure out what you can do next to replace the damaged speakers and get a better setup on the next go round. If you find stuff you are interested in, give a weblink and I can review it and make suggestions on if suitable or not, for what you really need... strong 8" woofers... Figure you need something rated for over 200 watts (peak) to each woofer. Much less, and you'll wind up replacing them too.
Swez
PS You are talking to Dr. Cheap when it comes to finding quality products at big discounts. What fun is it to have the great gear if we paid through the nose to get it retail? I too am a real bargain hunter and can really stretch that good ol US green back. We are kin in that sense.
Relax_The_Mind on 07/20/2003 01:15:30
hmmm smoke coming from speaker usually means one thing...
You fried the voice coils....which can happen several ways. being underrated (turning volume up to max with not enough power can fry a coil). The more common way too much power. Hooking up a common ground or common power in a 2-channel (or 4,5,6) setup.
To learn a little more about the basics of car audio and audio in general I have always liked the MTX education section that can be found by clicking on this link http://mtxaudio.com/caraudio/education/.
And yes if you want help on finding good gear to fit just about any reasonable budget you are definately in the right place.
RTM
xplicitblitzboi on 07/21/2003 02:49:40
another great site for basic car audio knowlege is eatel, i've used it many times before and recommend it all the time.
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm
Swez on 07/21/2003 02:59:26
Yep, Eatel is a great site for experienced techies, but for the newbie... may be a bit of a challenge in some advanced sections of the site. But great diagrams and active animations in some of the topics.
So, what have you been chewing on since your last report? Any progress or new thoughts pending?
Swez
azaufc on 07/21/2003 05:11:03
Well, i got the two subs out of the parcel shelf and took them down to the guy and he said "Oh, you've cooked them!" I said, "yeah, they are stuffed can i get a warranty or anything?" He told me that he will ring Clarion and he will test them, and that Clarion dont give refund or warranty if i have cooked them inside. Probably dont like my chances .
I have decided to scout around and look for another two 8"s, and chuck them back on the parcel shelf, but i will endeavour to build some type of enclosure under them, thanks for the tip! Oh and Swez, lol @ your comment about stretching the ol green back, and that we are kin in the bargain aspect, i will keep that in mind.
I have been thinking for future installation guys, how do i know if i have too much power going into the speakers or subs from my amp? I dont really understand what eg: 300 watts @ 4 ohms means. Anyone give me a quick run down on hertz, ohms, watts etc..?
I'll let you know if i can or cant get a warranty.
Thanks again
Aaron
Swez on 07/21/2003 06:35:15
The Eatel site noted earlier is a great place to learn information you have mentioned. It gives both short and detailed info as needed.
When picking out your new subs, you do need to take consideration about how much power you try to feed them. Like goldfish, feed them too much.... they blow up!
A basic review:
Ohms: a unit of measure that indicates how much resistance there is to the flow of electrical current
Watts: a measure of electrical power a device can produce or draw in a circuit. The math... Volts x Current = Watts (power) We often discuss powe ratings of a device in terms of RMS or Peak power. RMS is amount of continous power an amp can put out at a given resistance load (ohms) or how many watts a speaker can take before it reaches the danger zone.
Hertz: Hz for short is a reference to frequency a given device can operate within The higher the Hz numeric value, the higher the tone pitch will be
In your case, getting subs that can produce decent bass at reasonable volume levels may prove a bit more expensive then what you have used to date. It will be important that you choose your next subs based on how much power the amp can put out.
If I recall right, you have an amp that is rated at 300 watts per channel and 800 watts when bridged. I cannot tell if that is a Peak watts number or RMS. If you can tell me the fuse ratings used in that amp, I can calculate the approximate RMS power and Peak watts too. Then , picking up the right power rated subs will be easier... but you have to make an air tight enclosure system for them or you will be right back at the trash can.
At first blush, I would guess you'll need a pair of 4 ohm subs that can handle 300 watts (Peak) or 150 watts (RMS). That's a lot of power to ask from an 8" woofer and it probably will not be cheap either.
Fuse info on your amp please....
Regards,
Swez
azaufc on 07/22/2003 01:13:14
Hi again, the amp is actually 3 channell, sorry about that. It is an Alltec 3300, i have searched for this on the net but cant find anything. Their are two 25 amp fuses on the amp. Could you also tell me if this amp is likely to be able to take the 2 subs, and 2 speakers, or weather i will need to hook another one up?
Thanks alot! SMILE
Aaron
azaufc on 07/22/2003 01:21:11
Me again, i forgot the full model of the amp so here it is in full from what i can read on it. It is Altec AC- 3300. 3 channell mosfett power amp. 2x 300 watts or 1x 800 watts max. two 25 amp fuses on the side of the amp.
Swez on 07/22/2003 06:51:47
Really, Altec is a well known brand of gear for Home and Pro audio gear here in the USA. They use to be called Altec-Lansing, a sister company of JBL. (If it is the same Altec brand)
OK, if this really a 3 channel amp, it looks like you have about 350-400 watts RMS total output from all channels combined.
If this is actually a true 3 channel amp, you will see 3 sets of inputs and outputs, gain controls and crossover filters.... one for each channel. Is this what you see on this amp?
From the information you have presented so far, it appears this amp is either a 2 channel stereo (300 x 2) or can be "bridged" to a single channel output (MONO: 800 x 1) for sub applications. This is a common way to explain a 2 channel amp and its power capabilities.
If a true 3 channel, you can use this amp to power a pair of full range speakers and sub(s) as well. Not a huge amount of power to subs unless in MONO mode.
Can you comment on the number of outputs, inputs and controls mentioned above?
Swez
azaufc on 07/22/2003 23:16:17
I certainly can! GRIN On one side of the amp, their is 1 sub output, and 2 speaker outputs. (Each with L+R) On the other side of the amp their is two RCA inputs, one says: Sub input, the other says Low inout. I have mine in the sub input. Their are three dials on here that say: Bass boost 0db-12db, Sub freq, and the other says low input. Their is also a switch that says sub phase 0deg-180deg. Also button that says Hi pass- On, Off. I dont know what all this stuff means, once i know that i am definately well underway!
Thanks
Aaron
Swez on 07/23/2003 07:25:36
Atta Boy! Now we're getting somewhere. It sounds like this amp is designed as a 2 channel amp for full range use or it can internally bridge the 2 channels for 1 larger sub output application. Without full amp specs, hard to say if it can be used as a true 3 channel amp..
Meaning, channels A & B for full range and a separate channel for a sub applications.
The bass boost will add more bass to the amp output by adding several dB of Low end bass (~45 Hz) . I generally avoid this feature if the system is well designed and installed well... not needed. Set this feature to ZERO.
The Sub frequency dial is your LP filtering crossover. Set this between 80-100 Hz. All frequencies above that, are filtered out.
The phase switch is used to adjust how well the bass hits with the rest of the speakers in the system. A little tweaking of this control can help dial in the best bass match possible. Use the position that makes the bass sound full and deep.
HI Pass off is to disable the HP filter for full range speaker applications. If you use the amp for sub only applications, turn the HP feature off.
Does that cover it all? Also, have you come up with any new 8" sub options yet? One thing we have not discussed, is what ohms these new subbies should be. If you use the amp in bridged bass mode, probably need a pair of 8 ohm subs, wired in parallel to the sub amp output section. These should be easier to find as most home stereo subs are 8 ohms and better brands can handle high power as well.
Just a though... how much space (height) do you have between the parcel shelf and boot flooring? (under the sub lips) I have an idea on how to isolate your subs in an enclosure using 8-10" diameter tubes, sealed under each sub. Just need to know how long the tube can be to get the proper air space for each sub.
Please advise...
Swez
azaufc on 07/23/2003 09:12:08
You are a hero Swez! Is their no end to your help and wisdom? Do you feel like a doctor, that saves people's lives, and then feels good? You should!
Everyone needs help at something, it's just a matter of WHO is willing to spend the time and help. So thankyou, and thanks to all the admins! You should all feel great for your deeds.
I will measure the distance for you at next chance, i look forward to hearing your ideas. I have a few myself, i may be able to combine yours, mine, and any other ideas to suit my needs.
Aaron
ttocs on 07/23/2003 17:49:09
also I have to ask. Did you cut a hole in the shelf for the speakers to "breath" through? You could have also done damage to the speakers if you had them mounted to a solid area of the shelf.
How did you tune the amp? The best method is to turn the amp all the way down, and then turn the deck up to 3/4 full volume. Now adj the gain on the amp, While playing a cd you are familiar with. Tune it so that the speaker us almost clipping(popping or generally starting to sound bad). I say this as alot of people thing the gain is just a volume, and crank it all the way up...
Swez on 07/23/2003 20:00:08
Thanks for the kuddos there Aaron... nice to get positive feedback as we all try real hard to help people here on the board. Sometimes it actually works too.
Hey, get creative.... look outside the box for solutions and dare to be different. It does help to get outsider opinions at times. We all have our limits.
Also, ttock made a key suggestion for setting up your gear. The goal is clean, clear sound at a volume the system can tolerate. Knowing how to get this right takes practice and a good ear.... but most get it right in short order.
About subs in your area... what brands are typically available to you? Do you have online shopping and product search engines to research items of interest. If yes, flip a few web links back and I'll poke around and see if I can find you a few subs that might fit your needs.
ttock: FYI... He did cut holes in the parcel shelf and ran a pair of 8" subs in "free air" install. The first set of subs died as a result of over excursion and too much power while the second pair could not take the power and smoked the coils. Has a 2/3 channel Altec amp, ~400 RMS when bridged.
Evilsizer on 08/5/2003 05:25:55
hey swez,
so far as to what i have found is that the "Altec Lansing" car amps have the names as i have type with the modle starting with ALA i have a few of them..... im tring to put together a system but not sure what subs to get... As for what azaufc if his amp just says Altec on it with a cirlce around the c it is not Altec Lansing. i know cause i have found some on ebay...... i hope yall might be able to help me figure out what subs to get .. im looking at some not sure which ones though...... here is a quick list of the amps i have (3) Altec Lansing 200 watt amps (as far as i have found the wattage rating on older amps is in wattage RMS so im looking at 200watt rms) (1) Altec Lansing 20 watt amp..... i use the 20watt amp to push a single 8ohm 10inch rated at 100watts max and it pushed it quiet well to my suprise.. im looking at an infinity 10inch or 12 im thinking the reference series... or a rockford fosage HE series 10 or 12.... i was looking for 8's but cant find the RF HE's and infinity does not make them anymore.... any suggestions for subs or will the amps be able to power the infinity's...... Note the 200watt amps 100x2@4ohms or 120x2@2ohms or 1x200@4ohms... at wattage rms pulls 17amps im not sure though if it means in brigded mono or in 2channle mode as the box does not say and there is no manuel as i got these 3 off ebay quiet cheap under $50 for each....the amps have (2) 20amp fuses... so im thinking its in 2channel mode...... i want good tight and clean bass so i plan on using a sealed box...
Swez on 08/5/2003 08:06:07
Yeah, seem like you found some of the older A-L's that were around a few years back. Good find at those prices.
If you are only planning to use a single sub here (recommended) you can bridge this amp to MONO and run it to a single 4 ohm sub.
If the amp is good at 2 ohms in 2 channel mode, it will only take a 4 ohm load (or higher) when you bridge the amp MONO. Figure about 240 watts RMS this way and yes, Infinity Refs 10 or 12" will take that much power in the right enclosure design.
Have a look at: http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/Infinity/infinity_Reference.htm
Cannot beat the price huh for Infinity grade subs?
Swez
Evilsizer on 08/6/2003 00:58:04
yea its funny since one of them still had the retail tag on it priced at $299.... i was like wow.... but about the infinity ref. i was looking at the new ones that look like the perfects ...... also though are there any 2ohm dvc subs that you know of i have not been able to find any was looking at those since that would give me 120x2=240 instead of 200 with a svc 4ohm... thanks for the help
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