Auto girlies here... seems to be interesting....GRIN
http://www.girliegirlracing.com/shop/gallery/index.asp
Replies (18)
swez on 07/29/2005 09:43:20
Hubba hubba, girls on steroids!
Interesting note here, very few American vehicles seen in these pics. Wonder why that is?
Interesting site though,
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/29/2005 14:12:08
Because they don't like being stranded on the side of the road.
swez on 07/31/2005 10:06:59
Hehe... I hear dat!
Do you think Toyota will buy out GM in the near term or wait for the fire sale prices?
Swez
MrBrownstone on 08/1/2005 14:01:34
You know, I think if GM, Ford and Chrysler should get together, and have 3 brands:
Pontiac
Cadillac
Viper
The rest of the brands could be eliminated as noone is buying them anyway. Saturn is just a girl's Pontiac, Buick is an old people's Cadillac, and the only products Chrysler or Ford make worth owning is the Viper, Crossfire, GT and Mustang...and they could do without the Mustang.
Toyota is in a position to buy one of those companies, but why not just wait and watch them fall by the wayside and swallow up their market share? Toyota is everywhere GM is, and so there's no need to increase dealerships. Similar with Honda...although I believe Honda would probably benefit from more dealerships as it's quite smaller than Toyota in the US...although growing rapidly.
MrBrownstone on 08/1/2005 15:03:48
Swez & Co
I just read this on switching from Rebates to lower prices
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/01/Autos/gm/index.htm
GM actually believes that their cars are less competitive because imports are less expensive?!?!?!? The Accord, Camry, Corolla, Civic are ALL more expensive than Anything GM makes. Yet they outsell GM's comparable products because:
"...GM officials acknowledged indirectly that they were losing sales by having higher list prices and large cash-back offers to compete with the lower cost vehicles from overseas automakers, because many consumers start the the car buying process by comparing only list prices...."
When will GM get it? Your cars are selling fewer models because you sell unreliable crap? Gosh. They REEEEALLY need Ross Perot back at that company to give them the upheaval that they need. That, or You and I can go there and take it over.
By end of 2007, we'd have the most reliable cars on the market, or the most unemployed engineers and marketers in the world. Car sucks? Give 'em Rebates? Care is unreliable? Sell them a warranty?
END RANT
swez on 08/1/2005 16:32:50
Hummm, after living in "Car Town" USA a goodly portion of my life, I am convinced that the "Big 3" just don't get it yet. They are building very complex vehicles with many good safety features that do work.
However, when it come to dollars & sense, they think it is only dollars that make a difference. That's only part of a true bargain! The rest is "value". Things like...
1. Have the car 1 year and already back to dealership 4-6 times for some kind of repairs or fixing a factory snafu
2. Will the car last 5 years or more in normal driving conditions?
3. What is that vehicles' relative worth after 2-5 years of use?
4. The "sticker price" is only for idiots to read an complain about (anyone who pays sticker price for a US car, is outta their minds)
5. Bonus round... engineers are working harder than ever, to shut down the backyard mechanic and DIY'ers When's the last time most guys changed their own spark plugs, fuel filter or other basic components? It takes an 8 cf tool chest to work on most newer US made cars today. (All those specialty tools, designed by engineers, to assist Mr. Goodwrench?)
Anyway, if we are going to miss the target, might as well make a big bang out of it. Who knows... the shell may spray just enough to do some good???
Swez
MrBrownstone on 08/1/2005 17:45:34
What I was getting at was that I can go from 100k miles to 200k miles in my 'Yotas and Hondas with less repair than I ever could through the Oldslowmobiles, Chevrolets, Pontiacs, etc.
I still have friends that believe that it is imperative that you sell off a care before 75k miles because they 'all fall apart' after that point!!! Of course, they all drive FORD and Chev and Dodge products.
Some day, the legendary reputation of an American car will be reliability...just not until a foreign company takes it over. Sad, very sad.
ttocs on 08/1/2005 19:40:03
just clicked 104k on my ranger. So far I have had to replace some ac part, and the radiator hose.......
gearhead on 08/2/2005 00:40:44
Hmmmmm? Let's see.
1961 Impala, original engine rebuilt at 158,000mi.. Cost of rebuild= less than $1100. It currently has 218,000mi. on it, and has never left me stranded as long as I've owned it (8yrs.)
1986 Dodge Aries SW. 139,000 mi. on the original engine. Replaced head due to a burned valve at 110,000mi.. Cost = less than $200. Uses less than 1/2 qt of oil between oil changes. Car has never left me, or my parents stranded as long as we've owned it (19yrs.)
1986 Dodge Aries 4dr. Had 189,000mi. on the original engine when a cam seal let go and lunched the engine. An AC/Delco reman engine cost $450 delivered to my driveway. The A/C took a dump 2 months ago. Cost to repair= $400. The car left my Parents stranded 1 time in 14 yrs (when the cam seal let go.). The car has 210,000mi on it currently.
1987 Plymouth Horizon. over 237,000mi. on the original engine. Lost an auxilliary shaft bearing at 212,000mi. Replaced the bearing and the oil pump (heck, I already had the pan offso why not?). Engin holds 30lbs of oil pressure at idle (hot) and 65-70lbs at 75mph. This car has left me stranded 1 time in 15yrs. (timing belt snapped at 160,000mi.. Cost to repair= $12.95.
I can do a complete brake job on any of the Mopars, using all brand new parts (discs, drums, calipers, wheel cylinders,master cylinder, and brake hoses) for less than $200. Try that with any import. I get really tired of hearing people ragging about how "bad" US cars are and how "great" imports are. All of the imports have some real lemons. Just do a search for problems with imports.
"Toyota recalls 345443 Sienna minivans - Jul. 21, 2005"
"May 18, 2005 - Toyota Motor Corp., in one of its largest safety recalls ever, said Tuesday it is recalling more than 750,000 pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles because of problems with the front suspension that could hinder steering."
That's 1 MILLION vehicles Toyota has recalled in the last 3 months.
Honda Accord, Acura, Odyssey, Pilot
Recall Date: APR 15, 2004
Component: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
Potential Units Affected: 1,099,796
Nissan Murano
Recall Date: NOV 17, 2003
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Potential Units Affected: 630000
Infiniti Q45
Recall Date: NOV 17, 2003
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Potential Units Affected: 630000
Yeah, those imports are just so well biult, they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You can do a search for just about any import (or domestic for that matter) and get the same results.
MrBrownstone on 08/2/2005 14:10:24
I don't want to get this to be an import vs domestic dispute, but the repairs per 1000 cars is triple of GM and FURD VS Toyota or Honda. Of course cars have repairs and recalls.
The difference is that Honda and Toyota proactively recall their vehicles in order to protect their reputation and to prevent the inconvenience of their customers. Chev and Furd (and Dodge) recall them after the government threatens to take them off the road. Chev would make you PAY to repair your transmission...the imports, they pay for them.
Do a search of recalls from 1990 to 2005 on Toyota (corolla and camry are models that have lasted throughout that duration), then do a search of the Regal, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Cutlass Supreme...and you'll see what I mean. Try the Accord, it's fresh today!
USFLAG
gearhead on 08/6/2005 13:15:11
Imports are better than domestic is just an old perception. 2005 J.D. Powers Vehicle Dependability Study. The Vehicle Dependability Study measures problem symptoms experienced by original owners of three-year-old vehicles (2002 models). The vehicles are scored based on the number of problems per 100 vehicles (PP100). Note where Honda, Acura, Infiniti, & Toyota are. Let the rationalizing begin.
Lexus 139 PP100
Porsche 149 PP100
Lincoln 151 PP100
Buick 163 PP100
Cadillac 175 PP100
Infiniti 178 PP100
Toyota 194 PP100
Mercury 195 PP100
Honda 201 PP100
Acura 203 PP100
swez on 08/6/2005 18:55:36
Hummm, interesting stats there GH. Based on my own experiences which are limited to 2 imports (87 Toyota Tercel/80 Datsun 310 GX) and countless GM, Ford & Mopar products, the imports were most cost effective to maintain and operate. Neither imports needed any major maintainence other than oil changes, plugs, fuel/air filters and brakes and one flakey carburator in the Datsun. Both cars were donated to my church after 135,000 miles and were doing pretty well even then.
Cannot say the same for most American cars I have driven.
1990 Old's Trofeo' (offed it at 145,000)
Engine & trans and coolant systems good
Front and rear suspension shot at 85,000
Electrical component failures in dash info system were common as dirt in this vehicle. Typical repair cost, $1,200 - 1,500. I did mine for $400. ($300 for the display module, $100.00 for the repair manual) Only took about 60 hours to research the problem, determine the at fault devices and read the manual for hours to figure out the computer diagnostics trees. Oh, 3 ALTs and 2 BATs for this car as well. AC refit to R134a was also a big help... DIY kit was under $75.00.
3 Olds Cutlass Supreme's (Company cars)
Replaces Mass Air flow boards on each car at under 60,000
3.8 engine and trans were good
Brakes and tires lasted until car was returned from leases at 75,000
Terrible handling vehicles... light rear end got very skiddish on hard turns and braking
2 Ford Taurus (1990, 1993 Company cars)
Sluggish 3.0 but very reliable engine and tranny
No major maintainence on either in 75,000/ vehicle
2 Mercury Villagers (1995, 1998 Company cars)
These were great vehicles to drive and no major repairs needed on either with 75,000 + on each. (errrr, these are actually Nissan Quest twins)
1992 Buick LeSabre (105,000 current)
Nice engine and tranny package (stong engine for such a large boat)
Front suspension and brakes are pretty well shot. The rear shocks need replacement soon too. All electricals are in good working order to date. Good MPG for a large car too. (19 City, 26 Hwy)
The paint job is one lousy piece of workmanship however. One winter in Florida and the roof is peeling paint, better than most bananas I have eaten. Other than that, pretty reliable car... just 2 ALT's and 2 BAT's in past 105,000 miles. No big amps or audio in this ride either.
Anyway, that's a brief summary of what I can recall since 1980. Prior to 1980, all GM and Mopars back to 1966 Caprice and 66 Fury III. These cars were a tinker's delight. Always had something to fix on them. Mostly heads, carburators and ignition issues. Everything else was pretty much routine maintaience.
In short, would opt for a Rice Burner anytime over GM or D/C products. I have had good luck with later model Fords and my brother has had very good luck with GMC's. His last work van was sold at 150,000. His previous Chevy C-20 cargo went 200,000 + miles. But he did have a fair share of maintainence work done on both.
Swez
gearhead on 08/6/2005 19:53:50
I must be missing something.
Engine & trans and coolant systems good
3.8 engine and trans were good...Brakes and tires lasted until car was returned from leases at 75,000
Sluggish 3.0 but very reliable engine and tranny
No major maintainence on either in 75,000/ vehicle
Nice engine and tranny package....Good MPG for a large car too...pretty reliable car...
These were great vehicles to drive and no major repairs needed on either with 75,000 + on each. (FYI- Mercury's Villager and Nissan's Quest are a joint venture between the two companies. They are produced at Ford's Avon Lake, Ohio, assembly plant using Ford-supplied components.)
Which vehicles were "unreliable" and "broke down"? Which vehicle had the worst driveability? (It wouldn't have been the Datsun with the flakey carb, would it?) That kind of makes my point. People will overlook a problem/defect on an import and/or attribute it as a fluke, but come to the conclusion that domestics are all junk even if they don't have any major problems with them.To each their own.
swez on 08/6/2005 20:48:20
What I noted was that GM D/C and Ford have made some obvious improvments in QC/QA and better designed componets. They are not as bad as what we saw in the mid 70's and early 80's.
The Datsun carb issue was created by ethanol use in US gasoline formulations of that period. It was a simple fix and very easy to do as well. (throttle pump washer didn't like e-nol as I recall)
Remember the old Quadrajets, Holly's and Rochester carbs of that era? Yes, rebuilt a number of them as well. I dunno, mayby 10-12 of them over 15 years... The Holly was easy. The Quads were a bit more per-snick-ity.
Anyway, am not debating the issues here. Just made a brief summary of the vehicles I have owned/driven for extensive periods of time and what my perceptions of them were. We all know every car maker has had a few winners and some real dogs too. The Pinto, Vega, Maverick, Audi 5000, Granada were some real dogs right? (come on, give me a few nods will ya)
But then again, The Mustangs, Vette, Chevelle SS, Buick Stage I & II, Torino GT, Galaxay 500 were pretty fun cars of old too. Am sure there are many I did not mention. (GTO, Nova SS, Baracudda, Super Bee, Charger & Hornet)
But hey, this is a friendly exchange... not an all out debate or brawl right? GRIN
Swez
danielm87 on 08/6/2005 21:49:07
My father is the original owner of his 1989 Toyota Cressida with the 3L I-6 supra engine. Last month he clocked in 250,000 miles and, (literally and factually), each and every component of the engine, drivetrain, suspension, valvetrain, you name it - RUNS PERFECT.
My personal bias leans in favor of old chevrolet pickup trucks, but, in reality, you can only judge honestly if youve owned a vehicle of the make and model that your bashing, and i havent had experience with everything.
What i CAN say is that the number one thing to think about before judging a vehicle is MAINTENANCE.....how well the driver took care of changing oil, ATF, filters, driving style, etc. etc.
The lifestyle/mindset of the owner of a chevrolet or ford pickup truck would definitely not be as maintenance-friendly as that of a small honda/toyota vehicle owner...........
.......something to consider
Dan
gearhead on 08/6/2005 22:25:56
Friendly debate is always good. :) Yeah, all makes have had their dogs. I just get kinda piqued when folks make blanket statements that are more opinion/perception than fact. I know that many times what constitutes a relatively minor repair on most domestic cars can be a major and/or ridiculously expensive repair on an import. I'll shut up now.
swez on 08/7/2005 10:01:42
Import repair parts are higher than domestic brands. Vehicles are like women... some run on for ever w/o stopping while others are very high maintainence. (yes, that was a blanket statement) Knowing when a few tweaks under the hood are needed or pushing the car off a cliff, is a personal judgement call. Other than that, I'll just shut up now too.
Swez :-)
MrBrownstone on 08/8/2005 13:55:13
Even the argument that 'imports are more expensive to fix' doesn't hold water anymore. Dealership vs dealership, possibly, but jobbers are running the same. I had my starter get damaged and it cost me $190 for a new one or $105 for a rebuild. Besides, when it's so rare that you have to fix them, who cares about another $20 or $30? Import shops charge the same labor charges.
With respect to cars, I've had a Corolla get me 190k (before being stolen), a Honda Prelude 225k, a Nissan Altima 193k (before upgrading to a newer Accord.
My cousin got 255k on a Camry and Accord go him 228k before it was just too embarassing to drive to work. Here in MN, we have road salt all over our roads and cars tend to rust out quite handily if you drive them in the winter. His engine was fine, but it was 13 yrs old and an eyesore. At any rate there should NEVER be a time you have to rebuild your engine. Your engine should outlast the body, frame, axels and transmission of your vehicle. Unless you are a taxi driver or a cop--that idles 8 hours a day.
My point on cars is that any repair before 150k miles is unecessary. Fuel injectors are like a steering wheel--they aren't parts you should ever repair or replace. Main computers, ignition modules, ignition coils, climate controls, digital dash clusters, alternators, starters, water pumps--all of them, should go you 150k without a repair.
After 150k, you start to get to the point where if you've done mostly highway driving, you should expect fewer repairs. While if you've done a lot of city driving (stop N go, taxi, pizza delivery, etc.) you should expect more wear.
Cars below 150k miles should not burn a drop of oil--unless they are a taxi/cop cruiser and are idling all the time. From the 8 US products I've owned, not one of them made it 100k without a massive repair. Fuel inj, computers, coils, alternators.
What's funny is, I drove a Toyota Corolla 100k miles--the last 100k and had a 2kW system in it. It never needed an upgrade for the alternator, nor did it fail!!!!
Each day, a US driver buys a Toyota or Honda, and never buys a US car again. Why is that? They cost more, don't have attractive financing options (like 0%). They don't boast LONG TERM warranties...although noone is afraid of them breaking down?
Do yourselves a favor. Go to the Library. NO!!! not the one where strippers wear thick-rimmed glasses! The one with books.
Each year Consumer Reports (APRIL) puts out the results of their auto reliability. They rate every model that has a minimum of responses. Basically, CR surveys their subscribers and asks them about repairs, the year, make and model of car, and the cost of repairs. This data is compiled and cars are given 1-5 ratings.
What's great about CR is that it's a Non-profit magazine driven by subscribers. They don't take advertisers like Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Low Riders or Big 'Uns...so their results are not swayed or influenced by brand loyalty--merely, the data from their drivers.
I've been following this since about 1997, and I'm certain all libraries have at least 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, and 2001 available if you ask them. Look at your car, then look at the cars of Toyota, for example. Toyota/Lexus has had 4 models in the top 10 most reliable for 10 years running. Honda/Acura, 2.
These surveys go back 6-8 years, so you'll be able to see something more important than INITIAL quality....RESIDUAL quality. What you have left at the end of your 6-8 years. That should tell you where you'll stand between 10-12 years.
http://www.girliegirlracing.com/shop/gallery/index.asp
Replies (18)
swez on 07/29/2005 09:43:20
Hubba hubba, girls on steroids!
Interesting note here, very few American vehicles seen in these pics. Wonder why that is?
Interesting site though,
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/29/2005 14:12:08
Because they don't like being stranded on the side of the road.
swez on 07/31/2005 10:06:59
Hehe... I hear dat!
Do you think Toyota will buy out GM in the near term or wait for the fire sale prices?
Swez
MrBrownstone on 08/1/2005 14:01:34
You know, I think if GM, Ford and Chrysler should get together, and have 3 brands:
Pontiac
Cadillac
Viper
The rest of the brands could be eliminated as noone is buying them anyway. Saturn is just a girl's Pontiac, Buick is an old people's Cadillac, and the only products Chrysler or Ford make worth owning is the Viper, Crossfire, GT and Mustang...and they could do without the Mustang.
Toyota is in a position to buy one of those companies, but why not just wait and watch them fall by the wayside and swallow up their market share? Toyota is everywhere GM is, and so there's no need to increase dealerships. Similar with Honda...although I believe Honda would probably benefit from more dealerships as it's quite smaller than Toyota in the US...although growing rapidly.
MrBrownstone on 08/1/2005 15:03:48
Swez & Co
I just read this on switching from Rebates to lower prices
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/01/Autos/gm/index.htm
GM actually believes that their cars are less competitive because imports are less expensive?!?!?!? The Accord, Camry, Corolla, Civic are ALL more expensive than Anything GM makes. Yet they outsell GM's comparable products because:
"...GM officials acknowledged indirectly that they were losing sales by having higher list prices and large cash-back offers to compete with the lower cost vehicles from overseas automakers, because many consumers start the the car buying process by comparing only list prices...."
When will GM get it? Your cars are selling fewer models because you sell unreliable crap? Gosh. They REEEEALLY need Ross Perot back at that company to give them the upheaval that they need. That, or You and I can go there and take it over.
By end of 2007, we'd have the most reliable cars on the market, or the most unemployed engineers and marketers in the world. Car sucks? Give 'em Rebates? Care is unreliable? Sell them a warranty?
END RANT
swez on 08/1/2005 16:32:50
Hummm, after living in "Car Town" USA a goodly portion of my life, I am convinced that the "Big 3" just don't get it yet. They are building very complex vehicles with many good safety features that do work.
However, when it come to dollars & sense, they think it is only dollars that make a difference. That's only part of a true bargain! The rest is "value". Things like...
1. Have the car 1 year and already back to dealership 4-6 times for some kind of repairs or fixing a factory snafu
2. Will the car last 5 years or more in normal driving conditions?
3. What is that vehicles' relative worth after 2-5 years of use?
4. The "sticker price" is only for idiots to read an complain about (anyone who pays sticker price for a US car, is outta their minds)
5. Bonus round... engineers are working harder than ever, to shut down the backyard mechanic and DIY'ers When's the last time most guys changed their own spark plugs, fuel filter or other basic components? It takes an 8 cf tool chest to work on most newer US made cars today. (All those specialty tools, designed by engineers, to assist Mr. Goodwrench?)
Anyway, if we are going to miss the target, might as well make a big bang out of it. Who knows... the shell may spray just enough to do some good???
Swez
MrBrownstone on 08/1/2005 17:45:34
What I was getting at was that I can go from 100k miles to 200k miles in my 'Yotas and Hondas with less repair than I ever could through the Oldslowmobiles, Chevrolets, Pontiacs, etc.
I still have friends that believe that it is imperative that you sell off a care before 75k miles because they 'all fall apart' after that point!!! Of course, they all drive FORD and Chev and Dodge products.
Some day, the legendary reputation of an American car will be reliability...just not until a foreign company takes it over. Sad, very sad.
ttocs on 08/1/2005 19:40:03
just clicked 104k on my ranger. So far I have had to replace some ac part, and the radiator hose.......
gearhead on 08/2/2005 00:40:44
Hmmmmm? Let's see.
1961 Impala, original engine rebuilt at 158,000mi.. Cost of rebuild= less than $1100. It currently has 218,000mi. on it, and has never left me stranded as long as I've owned it (8yrs.)
1986 Dodge Aries SW. 139,000 mi. on the original engine. Replaced head due to a burned valve at 110,000mi.. Cost = less than $200. Uses less than 1/2 qt of oil between oil changes. Car has never left me, or my parents stranded as long as we've owned it (19yrs.)
1986 Dodge Aries 4dr. Had 189,000mi. on the original engine when a cam seal let go and lunched the engine. An AC/Delco reman engine cost $450 delivered to my driveway. The A/C took a dump 2 months ago. Cost to repair= $400. The car left my Parents stranded 1 time in 14 yrs (when the cam seal let go.). The car has 210,000mi on it currently.
1987 Plymouth Horizon. over 237,000mi. on the original engine. Lost an auxilliary shaft bearing at 212,000mi. Replaced the bearing and the oil pump (heck, I already had the pan offso why not?). Engin holds 30lbs of oil pressure at idle (hot) and 65-70lbs at 75mph. This car has left me stranded 1 time in 15yrs. (timing belt snapped at 160,000mi.. Cost to repair= $12.95.
I can do a complete brake job on any of the Mopars, using all brand new parts (discs, drums, calipers, wheel cylinders,master cylinder, and brake hoses) for less than $200. Try that with any import. I get really tired of hearing people ragging about how "bad" US cars are and how "great" imports are. All of the imports have some real lemons. Just do a search for problems with imports.
"Toyota recalls 345443 Sienna minivans - Jul. 21, 2005"
"May 18, 2005 - Toyota Motor Corp., in one of its largest safety recalls ever, said Tuesday it is recalling more than 750,000 pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles because of problems with the front suspension that could hinder steering."
That's 1 MILLION vehicles Toyota has recalled in the last 3 months.
Honda Accord, Acura, Odyssey, Pilot
Recall Date: APR 15, 2004
Component: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
Potential Units Affected: 1,099,796
Nissan Murano
Recall Date: NOV 17, 2003
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Potential Units Affected: 630000
Infiniti Q45
Recall Date: NOV 17, 2003
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Potential Units Affected: 630000
Yeah, those imports are just so well biult, they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You can do a search for just about any import (or domestic for that matter) and get the same results.
MrBrownstone on 08/2/2005 14:10:24
I don't want to get this to be an import vs domestic dispute, but the repairs per 1000 cars is triple of GM and FURD VS Toyota or Honda. Of course cars have repairs and recalls.
The difference is that Honda and Toyota proactively recall their vehicles in order to protect their reputation and to prevent the inconvenience of their customers. Chev and Furd (and Dodge) recall them after the government threatens to take them off the road. Chev would make you PAY to repair your transmission...the imports, they pay for them.
Do a search of recalls from 1990 to 2005 on Toyota (corolla and camry are models that have lasted throughout that duration), then do a search of the Regal, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Cutlass Supreme...and you'll see what I mean. Try the Accord, it's fresh today!
USFLAG
gearhead on 08/6/2005 13:15:11
Imports are better than domestic is just an old perception. 2005 J.D. Powers Vehicle Dependability Study. The Vehicle Dependability Study measures problem symptoms experienced by original owners of three-year-old vehicles (2002 models). The vehicles are scored based on the number of problems per 100 vehicles (PP100). Note where Honda, Acura, Infiniti, & Toyota are. Let the rationalizing begin.
Lexus 139 PP100
Porsche 149 PP100
Lincoln 151 PP100
Buick 163 PP100
Cadillac 175 PP100
Infiniti 178 PP100
Toyota 194 PP100
Mercury 195 PP100
Honda 201 PP100
Acura 203 PP100
swez on 08/6/2005 18:55:36
Hummm, interesting stats there GH. Based on my own experiences which are limited to 2 imports (87 Toyota Tercel/80 Datsun 310 GX) and countless GM, Ford & Mopar products, the imports were most cost effective to maintain and operate. Neither imports needed any major maintainence other than oil changes, plugs, fuel/air filters and brakes and one flakey carburator in the Datsun. Both cars were donated to my church after 135,000 miles and were doing pretty well even then.
Cannot say the same for most American cars I have driven.
1990 Old's Trofeo' (offed it at 145,000)
Engine & trans and coolant systems good
Front and rear suspension shot at 85,000
Electrical component failures in dash info system were common as dirt in this vehicle. Typical repair cost, $1,200 - 1,500. I did mine for $400. ($300 for the display module, $100.00 for the repair manual) Only took about 60 hours to research the problem, determine the at fault devices and read the manual for hours to figure out the computer diagnostics trees. Oh, 3 ALTs and 2 BATs for this car as well. AC refit to R134a was also a big help... DIY kit was under $75.00.
3 Olds Cutlass Supreme's (Company cars)
Replaces Mass Air flow boards on each car at under 60,000
3.8 engine and trans were good
Brakes and tires lasted until car was returned from leases at 75,000
Terrible handling vehicles... light rear end got very skiddish on hard turns and braking
2 Ford Taurus (1990, 1993 Company cars)
Sluggish 3.0 but very reliable engine and tranny
No major maintainence on either in 75,000/ vehicle
2 Mercury Villagers (1995, 1998 Company cars)
These were great vehicles to drive and no major repairs needed on either with 75,000 + on each. (errrr, these are actually Nissan Quest twins)
1992 Buick LeSabre (105,000 current)
Nice engine and tranny package (stong engine for such a large boat)
Front suspension and brakes are pretty well shot. The rear shocks need replacement soon too. All electricals are in good working order to date. Good MPG for a large car too. (19 City, 26 Hwy)
The paint job is one lousy piece of workmanship however. One winter in Florida and the roof is peeling paint, better than most bananas I have eaten. Other than that, pretty reliable car... just 2 ALT's and 2 BAT's in past 105,000 miles. No big amps or audio in this ride either.
Anyway, that's a brief summary of what I can recall since 1980. Prior to 1980, all GM and Mopars back to 1966 Caprice and 66 Fury III. These cars were a tinker's delight. Always had something to fix on them. Mostly heads, carburators and ignition issues. Everything else was pretty much routine maintaience.
In short, would opt for a Rice Burner anytime over GM or D/C products. I have had good luck with later model Fords and my brother has had very good luck with GMC's. His last work van was sold at 150,000. His previous Chevy C-20 cargo went 200,000 + miles. But he did have a fair share of maintainence work done on both.
Swez
gearhead on 08/6/2005 19:53:50
I must be missing something.
Engine & trans and coolant systems good
3.8 engine and trans were good...Brakes and tires lasted until car was returned from leases at 75,000
Sluggish 3.0 but very reliable engine and tranny
No major maintainence on either in 75,000/ vehicle
Nice engine and tranny package....Good MPG for a large car too...pretty reliable car...
These were great vehicles to drive and no major repairs needed on either with 75,000 + on each. (FYI- Mercury's Villager and Nissan's Quest are a joint venture between the two companies. They are produced at Ford's Avon Lake, Ohio, assembly plant using Ford-supplied components.)
Which vehicles were "unreliable" and "broke down"? Which vehicle had the worst driveability? (It wouldn't have been the Datsun with the flakey carb, would it?) That kind of makes my point. People will overlook a problem/defect on an import and/or attribute it as a fluke, but come to the conclusion that domestics are all junk even if they don't have any major problems with them.To each their own.
swez on 08/6/2005 20:48:20
What I noted was that GM D/C and Ford have made some obvious improvments in QC/QA and better designed componets. They are not as bad as what we saw in the mid 70's and early 80's.
The Datsun carb issue was created by ethanol use in US gasoline formulations of that period. It was a simple fix and very easy to do as well. (throttle pump washer didn't like e-nol as I recall)
Remember the old Quadrajets, Holly's and Rochester carbs of that era? Yes, rebuilt a number of them as well. I dunno, mayby 10-12 of them over 15 years... The Holly was easy. The Quads were a bit more per-snick-ity.
Anyway, am not debating the issues here. Just made a brief summary of the vehicles I have owned/driven for extensive periods of time and what my perceptions of them were. We all know every car maker has had a few winners and some real dogs too. The Pinto, Vega, Maverick, Audi 5000, Granada were some real dogs right? (come on, give me a few nods will ya)
But then again, The Mustangs, Vette, Chevelle SS, Buick Stage I & II, Torino GT, Galaxay 500 were pretty fun cars of old too. Am sure there are many I did not mention. (GTO, Nova SS, Baracudda, Super Bee, Charger & Hornet)
But hey, this is a friendly exchange... not an all out debate or brawl right? GRIN
Swez
danielm87 on 08/6/2005 21:49:07
My father is the original owner of his 1989 Toyota Cressida with the 3L I-6 supra engine. Last month he clocked in 250,000 miles and, (literally and factually), each and every component of the engine, drivetrain, suspension, valvetrain, you name it - RUNS PERFECT.
My personal bias leans in favor of old chevrolet pickup trucks, but, in reality, you can only judge honestly if youve owned a vehicle of the make and model that your bashing, and i havent had experience with everything.
What i CAN say is that the number one thing to think about before judging a vehicle is MAINTENANCE.....how well the driver took care of changing oil, ATF, filters, driving style, etc. etc.
The lifestyle/mindset of the owner of a chevrolet or ford pickup truck would definitely not be as maintenance-friendly as that of a small honda/toyota vehicle owner...........
.......something to consider
Dan
gearhead on 08/6/2005 22:25:56
Friendly debate is always good. :) Yeah, all makes have had their dogs. I just get kinda piqued when folks make blanket statements that are more opinion/perception than fact. I know that many times what constitutes a relatively minor repair on most domestic cars can be a major and/or ridiculously expensive repair on an import. I'll shut up now.
swez on 08/7/2005 10:01:42
Import repair parts are higher than domestic brands. Vehicles are like women... some run on for ever w/o stopping while others are very high maintainence. (yes, that was a blanket statement) Knowing when a few tweaks under the hood are needed or pushing the car off a cliff, is a personal judgement call. Other than that, I'll just shut up now too.
Swez :-)
MrBrownstone on 08/8/2005 13:55:13
Even the argument that 'imports are more expensive to fix' doesn't hold water anymore. Dealership vs dealership, possibly, but jobbers are running the same. I had my starter get damaged and it cost me $190 for a new one or $105 for a rebuild. Besides, when it's so rare that you have to fix them, who cares about another $20 or $30? Import shops charge the same labor charges.
With respect to cars, I've had a Corolla get me 190k (before being stolen), a Honda Prelude 225k, a Nissan Altima 193k (before upgrading to a newer Accord.
My cousin got 255k on a Camry and Accord go him 228k before it was just too embarassing to drive to work. Here in MN, we have road salt all over our roads and cars tend to rust out quite handily if you drive them in the winter. His engine was fine, but it was 13 yrs old and an eyesore. At any rate there should NEVER be a time you have to rebuild your engine. Your engine should outlast the body, frame, axels and transmission of your vehicle. Unless you are a taxi driver or a cop--that idles 8 hours a day.
My point on cars is that any repair before 150k miles is unecessary. Fuel injectors are like a steering wheel--they aren't parts you should ever repair or replace. Main computers, ignition modules, ignition coils, climate controls, digital dash clusters, alternators, starters, water pumps--all of them, should go you 150k without a repair.
After 150k, you start to get to the point where if you've done mostly highway driving, you should expect fewer repairs. While if you've done a lot of city driving (stop N go, taxi, pizza delivery, etc.) you should expect more wear.
Cars below 150k miles should not burn a drop of oil--unless they are a taxi/cop cruiser and are idling all the time. From the 8 US products I've owned, not one of them made it 100k without a massive repair. Fuel inj, computers, coils, alternators.
What's funny is, I drove a Toyota Corolla 100k miles--the last 100k and had a 2kW system in it. It never needed an upgrade for the alternator, nor did it fail!!!!
Each day, a US driver buys a Toyota or Honda, and never buys a US car again. Why is that? They cost more, don't have attractive financing options (like 0%). They don't boast LONG TERM warranties...although noone is afraid of them breaking down?
Do yourselves a favor. Go to the Library. NO!!! not the one where strippers wear thick-rimmed glasses! The one with books.
Each year Consumer Reports (APRIL) puts out the results of their auto reliability. They rate every model that has a minimum of responses. Basically, CR surveys their subscribers and asks them about repairs, the year, make and model of car, and the cost of repairs. This data is compiled and cars are given 1-5 ratings.
What's great about CR is that it's a Non-profit magazine driven by subscribers. They don't take advertisers like Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Low Riders or Big 'Uns...so their results are not swayed or influenced by brand loyalty--merely, the data from their drivers.
I've been following this since about 1997, and I'm certain all libraries have at least 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, and 2001 available if you ask them. Look at your car, then look at the cars of Toyota, for example. Toyota/Lexus has had 4 models in the top 10 most reliable for 10 years running. Honda/Acura, 2.
These surveys go back 6-8 years, so you'll be able to see something more important than INITIAL quality....RESIDUAL quality. What you have left at the end of your 6-8 years. That should tell you where you'll stand between 10-12 years.
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