HI there everyone
i know it's been a long long time since i asked for Help ..... the reason for that the pro's are always there for you .. have left nothing for ?
i build kickpanels befor with the help of u .. from step one ..
noe i'm thinking to build centerspeaker panel on the dash .. so need few ideas and how it's effective ?
many thanx
Replies (17)
swez on 07/19/2005 17:49:21
Hey Tuning,
Good to see you back at CK again.
Personally, I have not had any experience with center channel speakers in a car environment. I guess, if you have a DVD video system in that ride, it can be done... but am not sure why to do it?
A large Van or similar might be a neat gadget to have. But if in a smaller car or truck, the interior listening space is so limited in space. Audio cancellations could be a notable issue. Not sure I see the benefit to such an ellaborate, multi-stage approach in a mobile format.
Why? Look at the seating arrangement in a vehicle VS Home theater applications. In HT applications, we have a large space to view and listen to surround sound 5.0, 6.0 etc. But in a car, we have no real center seating position. Everything in a car in off center, except in a bench seat or rear bench seat configuration.
Not trying to disuade you from pursuing the idea with gusto if that's what you desire. Just don't know how to help you get there at the moment. Perhaps others here have some inputs on such matters.
Good luck and keep coming by,
Swez
ttocs on 07/20/2005 00:39:05
clarion makes a neat 1/2 din center channel with an onboard amp....
lessismorespl on 07/20/2005 07:47:26
It can be very effective for larger SUV's, Vans, RV's, etc... but in a vehicle such as a car or small truck it is not very effective. Used a Panasonic MXE 7500 which had the surround sound in a full size Envoy, the results placed a nice sound. As Swez said it woyuld not make much sense in a smaller vehicle, whether there was video or not. However, if you have a full size SUV or something w/ large cabin space, it is nice for watching movies.
That Clarion unit is nice.
less
MrBrownstone on 07/20/2005 14:30:19
unless you are listening to DVDs in your car, the center speaker is somewhat futile. the problem is that there is so little space between the left and right side, that you end up with MONO!!! kinda like having 'front fill'
:-)
I wouldn't waste my time on surround sound in a car--probably not a van either. If you are listenting to DVD movies, why not just go home?
only_tuning on 07/20/2005 17:23:43
Thanks for support
i'l tell you the story ...... one of my friends installed /////Alpine component type R 6.5 inch ..... he blowed one of the speakers so he was forced to exchange them ... so i decided to make use of the other pair .. so i tried it with my Alpine 5 ch amp as i also got the same components already in kickpanel .... the sound stage was excellent cause the under kickpanels gives you the feeling of midbass ... and the center speaker just provide better highs this was only for test .. then thought to ask the pro's before i do the FG work .....
just needed more ideas .
thanks
swez on 07/20/2005 19:21:32
Hummm, sounds like you have a result that was better than expected. That's a good thing and for my part in shooting holes in the idea, I apologize for setting the stage for others to follow. Mind handing back my hat so I can chew on it a while? ;-)
So, instead of me telling you why it was not a good plan, would you mind telling me/us why/how it worked, so I can learn something from your experience and efforts?
BTW, it never hurts to swim up stream from the crowd. That's where innovatation and new ideas are spawned. Say more about your results OK?
Respectfully yours,
Swez
only_tuning on 07/21/2005 17:29:14
Thanks for support
i'm not triying to act like a pro or somthing ... i'm always learning and will be a biggner ..... anyway
the kick panel that was build in a sealed FG ... so the movment of the woofer will be less which will result kind of tighter beats if i can say so .
about the center speaker .. tried many aimings angels:
1. i took it put in in the center of the dash
2. let it face the driver side
result was perect ...
the only problem is that i should do one of the two things :
A. choose either one of the left or right channel
B. do it mono so i wont get left . right problems in front stage.
but the thing is only thing is to reduce the gain cause it's will suffer
any further comments ?
many thanks
Victor on 07/21/2005 17:33:38
you dont need to select one channel , the center spk shud play mono and change the phase of anyone channel, either the left or the right.. that should hopefully solve your front stage problem..
Victor...
PS.. I never thought that a center speaker wud be a problem or would not give better results.. if installed properly it sounds great..
Also since you have aimed the speaker the way it sounds best to you , now for finer tuning and avoiding sharp highs.. you should try aiming just the tweeter .. it should help you customise the sound to a great extent..
Those alpines should have a crossover with adjustable Xover freq slope ( or a phase selector ,, dunno which one).. try switching over between those and see what sounds best..
swez on 07/21/2005 17:48:54
Am also wondering, since you have dual speakers (I think that's what was said earlier?) for center channel, have you tried wiring them stereo where the center/left is playing right channel audio, center/right is playing left channel?
Don't know why I say that, but intuitively speaking, it may give a nice front stage presents to both driver and passenger if the time alignments and SPL are balanced well. Dunno, just hit me in the head to mention that option and see what comes out of it.
Keep learning and share as ya go,
Swez
Victor on 07/21/2005 17:57:20
they are not dual spks dave.. its just 1 single component with one MB and a tweeter.. , the centre speaker should ideally play mono and the left and the right should be out of phase to give him good performance.. thats how i see it..
Victor...
swez on 07/21/2005 18:17:36
Ahhh, just 1 speaker there... OK, disregard my comments than.
Swez
ttocs on 07/21/2005 20:33:25
left and right out of phase?
Victor on 07/22/2005 02:19:44
ya.. as we are using the center speaker in mono, hte left to right transition in music will be a bit lost since a car is a very small room.
with the right and left out of phase, there will be smoother transition and definition of the right and left channel.. usually.
actually in absence of the centre speaker if we go to see what wud happen if the phase was reversed...
there will be cancellation more on the lower MB freq... right..?? that means the highs will be more prominent ...
high frequencies are better at giving a sense of direction.. so in this case when we have a component centre speaker, lets see what would happen..
The center speaker gets mono signal, so MB from both the channel is going to be played from it.. which will be a signal similar in nature to the Sub ( mono signal ) also the cross over freq will help the bass sound upfront..
now for the left and right since the out of phase relation will cancelout some lower MB freq, the MR and the highs which become more prominent would give you a better sense of direction , and hence better left to right definition of sound.
I have done this in a few cars, including mine and it has worked well for me, this cant be generalised for every setup , but in this case its worth giving it a try.
Victor...
ttocs on 07/22/2005 03:52:07
oh heck I dunno you are way over my head now..... I have never heard of wiring left and right out of phase, maybe the center.
Victor on 07/22/2005 07:37:01
It's important to understand the difference between a reversal in "polarity" and a reversal, or change, in "phase." Polarity problems are usually caused by the positive and negative speaker wires being hooked up backwards on a speaker. They should be corrected by connecting the speaker wires properly.
Phase switches on crossovers are meant to deal with a change in signal phase caused by a crossover. A crossover will alter the phase of the output signal by 90 degrees for every "order" of slope that the crossover uses (i.e. a 6 dB/octave, or 1st order, crossover will skew the output phasing by 90 degrees, a 12 dB/octave slope, 2nd order, will skew it by 180 degrees, and so on).
The phase switch on a crossover usually changes the phase of the output signal by 180 degrees. Depending on the interior dimensions of your vehicle, how the speaker is mounted, and where it is mounted, the bass may sound better if the phasing switch is utilized. Sometimes it will sound better if it is not used. The higher the crossover frequency between the subs, mid-bass, mid-range and tweeter the more noticeable the difference caused by phase switch position.
You should realize, too, that crossovers induce a phase shift in the
signal of 90 degrees per order. In a second order filter, then, this
can be corrected by simply reversing the polarity of one of the
drivers, since they would otherwise be 180 degrees out of phase with
respect to each other. In any case with any crossover, though, you
should always experiment with the polarity of the drivers to achieve
the best total system response.
Since a car is not an ideal surrounding and there is no center sweet spot , the sound system has to be caliberated according to the necessity of the driver.. usually the drivers seat is used for refrence..
now the distance of the left and the right speaker is different from the listener.. so there is a time lag before the sound from farther speakers reaches the listeners ears.. this time delay can also be solved by changing the phase of the non-lagging sound wave ( ie. the nearer speaker ) as necessary anywhere between 0' to 360'
this will move the sound image in such a way that the person sitting on the drivers seat will feel as if he is sitting in the centre of the sound field , a similar thing can also be done to caliberate the rear stage.
Victor...
ttocs on 07/22/2005 13:39:50
I have had theory in crossovers in tech school where we covered most of what you said. I tend to keep things simple and not over think them. when do you start to think you are thinking too much?
Victor on 07/22/2005 14:59:07
lol.... just trying to dig a bit deeper...will not think that i think too much atleast as of now, till i am learning , and i guess i shall never be able to stop learning since this vast field of sound dynamics and acoustics keeps on developing everyday with new tech and researches..
Like all serious audiophiles .. I dream of creating the ultimate sound system..and will keep on moving towards it step by step.. slow and steady never missing out on the least possible detail.
For me, its always going to be a quest for perfection and excellence
SMILE
Victor..
hehe.. i just got carried away... did i say too much..??
i know it's been a long long time since i asked for Help ..... the reason for that the pro's are always there for you .. have left nothing for ?
i build kickpanels befor with the help of u .. from step one ..
noe i'm thinking to build centerspeaker panel on the dash .. so need few ideas and how it's effective ?
many thanx
Replies (17)
swez on 07/19/2005 17:49:21
Hey Tuning,
Good to see you back at CK again.
Personally, I have not had any experience with center channel speakers in a car environment. I guess, if you have a DVD video system in that ride, it can be done... but am not sure why to do it?
A large Van or similar might be a neat gadget to have. But if in a smaller car or truck, the interior listening space is so limited in space. Audio cancellations could be a notable issue. Not sure I see the benefit to such an ellaborate, multi-stage approach in a mobile format.
Why? Look at the seating arrangement in a vehicle VS Home theater applications. In HT applications, we have a large space to view and listen to surround sound 5.0, 6.0 etc. But in a car, we have no real center seating position. Everything in a car in off center, except in a bench seat or rear bench seat configuration.
Not trying to disuade you from pursuing the idea with gusto if that's what you desire. Just don't know how to help you get there at the moment. Perhaps others here have some inputs on such matters.
Good luck and keep coming by,
Swez
ttocs on 07/20/2005 00:39:05
clarion makes a neat 1/2 din center channel with an onboard amp....
lessismorespl on 07/20/2005 07:47:26
It can be very effective for larger SUV's, Vans, RV's, etc... but in a vehicle such as a car or small truck it is not very effective. Used a Panasonic MXE 7500 which had the surround sound in a full size Envoy, the results placed a nice sound. As Swez said it woyuld not make much sense in a smaller vehicle, whether there was video or not. However, if you have a full size SUV or something w/ large cabin space, it is nice for watching movies.
That Clarion unit is nice.
less
MrBrownstone on 07/20/2005 14:30:19
unless you are listening to DVDs in your car, the center speaker is somewhat futile. the problem is that there is so little space between the left and right side, that you end up with MONO!!! kinda like having 'front fill'
:-)
I wouldn't waste my time on surround sound in a car--probably not a van either. If you are listenting to DVD movies, why not just go home?
only_tuning on 07/20/2005 17:23:43
Thanks for support
i'l tell you the story ...... one of my friends installed /////Alpine component type R 6.5 inch ..... he blowed one of the speakers so he was forced to exchange them ... so i decided to make use of the other pair .. so i tried it with my Alpine 5 ch amp as i also got the same components already in kickpanel .... the sound stage was excellent cause the under kickpanels gives you the feeling of midbass ... and the center speaker just provide better highs this was only for test .. then thought to ask the pro's before i do the FG work .....
just needed more ideas .
thanks
swez on 07/20/2005 19:21:32
Hummm, sounds like you have a result that was better than expected. That's a good thing and for my part in shooting holes in the idea, I apologize for setting the stage for others to follow. Mind handing back my hat so I can chew on it a while? ;-)
So, instead of me telling you why it was not a good plan, would you mind telling me/us why/how it worked, so I can learn something from your experience and efforts?
BTW, it never hurts to swim up stream from the crowd. That's where innovatation and new ideas are spawned. Say more about your results OK?
Respectfully yours,
Swez
only_tuning on 07/21/2005 17:29:14
Thanks for support
i'm not triying to act like a pro or somthing ... i'm always learning and will be a biggner ..... anyway
the kick panel that was build in a sealed FG ... so the movment of the woofer will be less which will result kind of tighter beats if i can say so .
about the center speaker .. tried many aimings angels:
1. i took it put in in the center of the dash
2. let it face the driver side
result was perect ...
the only problem is that i should do one of the two things :
A. choose either one of the left or right channel
B. do it mono so i wont get left . right problems in front stage.
but the thing is only thing is to reduce the gain cause it's will suffer
any further comments ?
many thanks
Victor on 07/21/2005 17:33:38
you dont need to select one channel , the center spk shud play mono and change the phase of anyone channel, either the left or the right.. that should hopefully solve your front stage problem..
Victor...
PS.. I never thought that a center speaker wud be a problem or would not give better results.. if installed properly it sounds great..
Also since you have aimed the speaker the way it sounds best to you , now for finer tuning and avoiding sharp highs.. you should try aiming just the tweeter .. it should help you customise the sound to a great extent..
Those alpines should have a crossover with adjustable Xover freq slope ( or a phase selector ,, dunno which one).. try switching over between those and see what sounds best..
swez on 07/21/2005 17:48:54
Am also wondering, since you have dual speakers (I think that's what was said earlier?) for center channel, have you tried wiring them stereo where the center/left is playing right channel audio, center/right is playing left channel?
Don't know why I say that, but intuitively speaking, it may give a nice front stage presents to both driver and passenger if the time alignments and SPL are balanced well. Dunno, just hit me in the head to mention that option and see what comes out of it.
Keep learning and share as ya go,
Swez
Victor on 07/21/2005 17:57:20
they are not dual spks dave.. its just 1 single component with one MB and a tweeter.. , the centre speaker should ideally play mono and the left and the right should be out of phase to give him good performance.. thats how i see it..
Victor...
swez on 07/21/2005 18:17:36
Ahhh, just 1 speaker there... OK, disregard my comments than.
Swez
ttocs on 07/21/2005 20:33:25
left and right out of phase?
Victor on 07/22/2005 02:19:44
ya.. as we are using the center speaker in mono, hte left to right transition in music will be a bit lost since a car is a very small room.
with the right and left out of phase, there will be smoother transition and definition of the right and left channel.. usually.
actually in absence of the centre speaker if we go to see what wud happen if the phase was reversed...
there will be cancellation more on the lower MB freq... right..?? that means the highs will be more prominent ...
high frequencies are better at giving a sense of direction.. so in this case when we have a component centre speaker, lets see what would happen..
The center speaker gets mono signal, so MB from both the channel is going to be played from it.. which will be a signal similar in nature to the Sub ( mono signal ) also the cross over freq will help the bass sound upfront..
now for the left and right since the out of phase relation will cancelout some lower MB freq, the MR and the highs which become more prominent would give you a better sense of direction , and hence better left to right definition of sound.
I have done this in a few cars, including mine and it has worked well for me, this cant be generalised for every setup , but in this case its worth giving it a try.
Victor...
ttocs on 07/22/2005 03:52:07
oh heck I dunno you are way over my head now..... I have never heard of wiring left and right out of phase, maybe the center.
Victor on 07/22/2005 07:37:01
It's important to understand the difference between a reversal in "polarity" and a reversal, or change, in "phase." Polarity problems are usually caused by the positive and negative speaker wires being hooked up backwards on a speaker. They should be corrected by connecting the speaker wires properly.
Phase switches on crossovers are meant to deal with a change in signal phase caused by a crossover. A crossover will alter the phase of the output signal by 90 degrees for every "order" of slope that the crossover uses (i.e. a 6 dB/octave, or 1st order, crossover will skew the output phasing by 90 degrees, a 12 dB/octave slope, 2nd order, will skew it by 180 degrees, and so on).
The phase switch on a crossover usually changes the phase of the output signal by 180 degrees. Depending on the interior dimensions of your vehicle, how the speaker is mounted, and where it is mounted, the bass may sound better if the phasing switch is utilized. Sometimes it will sound better if it is not used. The higher the crossover frequency between the subs, mid-bass, mid-range and tweeter the more noticeable the difference caused by phase switch position.
You should realize, too, that crossovers induce a phase shift in the
signal of 90 degrees per order. In a second order filter, then, this
can be corrected by simply reversing the polarity of one of the
drivers, since they would otherwise be 180 degrees out of phase with
respect to each other. In any case with any crossover, though, you
should always experiment with the polarity of the drivers to achieve
the best total system response.
Since a car is not an ideal surrounding and there is no center sweet spot , the sound system has to be caliberated according to the necessity of the driver.. usually the drivers seat is used for refrence..
now the distance of the left and the right speaker is different from the listener.. so there is a time lag before the sound from farther speakers reaches the listeners ears.. this time delay can also be solved by changing the phase of the non-lagging sound wave ( ie. the nearer speaker ) as necessary anywhere between 0' to 360'
this will move the sound image in such a way that the person sitting on the drivers seat will feel as if he is sitting in the centre of the sound field , a similar thing can also be done to caliberate the rear stage.
Victor...
ttocs on 07/22/2005 13:39:50
I have had theory in crossovers in tech school where we covered most of what you said. I tend to keep things simple and not over think them. when do you start to think you are thinking too much?
Victor on 07/22/2005 14:59:07
lol.... just trying to dig a bit deeper...will not think that i think too much atleast as of now, till i am learning , and i guess i shall never be able to stop learning since this vast field of sound dynamics and acoustics keeps on developing everyday with new tech and researches..
Like all serious audiophiles .. I dream of creating the ultimate sound system..and will keep on moving towards it step by step.. slow and steady never missing out on the least possible detail.
For me, its always going to be a quest for perfection and excellence
SMILE
Victor..
hehe.. i just got carried away... did i say too much..??
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