I have just purchased 2 MTX 8500 4ohm DVC 12's, I'm getting them from an authorized dealer w/ full registered warranty for $448 O.T.D.(cheaper than any bogus online store selling altered equipment...so much for the "it's cheaper online" theory!!) I'm considering one of 2 amps to drive these, my first choice is the Diamond Audio D61000.1, my second choice is the Crossfire VR1000D, and of course matching 4 channel amp( Diamond D6600.4 or Crossfire VR804).
For my front stage, CL-641 - CDT Audio Classic 4"/6.5" 3-Way Component Speakers,and for the rear fill Boston Acoustics SL80 5x7 component's.
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm working this upgrade on a strict budget.
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Replies (44)
UKinstaller on 06/22/2005 23:12:40
a great way to save some serious money and to make your system sound better is to not run any rear speakers. just run a nice set of components up front with a modest two channel amp with a high pass filter and you will be golden.
i don't know how many other people on this site don't use rear fill, but i don't and it sounds sooooo much better.
-UK
compvr15s on 06/23/2005 00:14:13
i agree. rear fill is not needed, especially with an amped set of comps up front. i have just stock 4x6s in the front of a lumina and it sound fine imagine a good set of seperates would be spectacular.
ttocs on 06/23/2005 00:46:43
i am still a fan of rear fill myself. Doesn't have to be much but I want a little.....
montego_27 on 06/23/2005 05:48:55
Your set-up is very similar to mine, Less. I'm running CDT 3-ways up front off a Kenwwod 2-channel (150x2) Alpine Class D running two 10' Alpine type R's in trunk.But I have a third amp (Alpine 50x2) running my rear deck, which is two Audiobahn 6x9 2-way (mid and mid-woofer) with separate tweeters mounted up in the rear pillars. I ran for a bit w/ just the front stage and then decided to experiment w/ the back, first with the 6x9's, it sounded better so then decided to try some tweets.What a difference! Being in the front seat the rear sound comes to you on a few milliseconds delay. This creates an incredible surround effect.Others that hear it say they've never heard anything like it. Just make sure you've got some protection on the back of the 5x7's or they will get beat up.I also have my trunk ported similar to yours, and there's a lot of air being pushed around back there.As for the amps, I've heard some good things about Crossfires but I think I would go with the Diamonds.You've had them before and were happy with them so I would go with what's tried and true. Nice upgrade, Tego
lessismorespl on 06/23/2005 20:31:33
Personally, after many years of attending shows and listening to many cars, if everything is staged properly and tuned correctly, rear fill can really enhance the overall SQ of a car. MECA is probably on of the strictest in competition and most the world finals winners have rear fill. I gave it some thought in doing this upgrade, and decided I would go w/ the rear fill.
I decided I'm definately going w/ the Diamonds, after talking to several people on other forums, there have been some problems running the Crossfires at 1ohm, I presently have the D3 Diamonds and run the 600.1 @ 1ohm and have never had a problem, so my experience w/ them tells me the D6 can only be a step up.
I will have to modify my rear deck again b/c it is ported, and all the calculations and specifications will change b/c the 8500 is a far more superior sub when compared to the W3. All in good time.
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I was mainly looking for feedback about my choice of equipment...good experiences, bad experiences...etc...
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Victor on 06/24/2005 10:46:03
Well.. Less..
Your years of experience in car audio is very well reflected in the choice of equipment you have made.
Those Diamond amps are really trustworthy and clean as well as powerful.
Give a thought to Focal 3-ways , am not saying the CDT's are weak in any ways, they are awesome too. but if i had a good budget focal would be at a higher priority on my shopping list.
About the rear fill, I would not ask you to ignore it cause a rear stage is very important to create a sense of space. But the front stage always has a higher priority and I usually do 1:3 power ratio on front :rear fill.
Also with some modifications you can put in 2 way 6.5" components instead of those 5x7" , much cleaner and will give you lot of flexibility to handle the rear staging.
I have stopped suggesting the use of coaxials in high end car audio system, simply because of the staging and imaging limitations they have and also because i have never digested the idea of an oval speaker cause they tend to loose the surface integrity on certain points on its circumference on higher excursion.
Also you can think of a MB driver in the centre console to get the bass upfront, if a MB driver is handled well you can get a good boost in the front stage and the left-right transition and imaging will enhance amazingly.
I guess i do not need to tell u all this as you are far more experienced then most of us out here..
Anyways. your choice of equipment and the suggestion on equipments you have been giving on the forum has greately changed the view of many on certain products and people have started adopting different brands then the usual ones which were rampant everywhere..
Would take a chance to appreciate your help and expertise and wish you luck on your new upgrade.
Victor..
Victor on 06/24/2005 10:48:54
eeeeeks.. sorry if i made up a mess on the front : rear ratio, was going thru my reply and it struck me....
what i meant to say was that if the rear stage is powered with 50wrms the the front would be 150wrms..
VictorGRIN
lessismorespl on 06/25/2005 07:54:10
Well noted Victor. The Boston 2-way component is not an oval speaker, it is a round midbass w/ a tweeter, however when you think about staging, they are mounted in a plate much like a coaxial, so staging may be difficult. I plan on fiberglassing my rear deck this time around, nothing fancy, just fiberglass and then covering it w/ matching interior carpet. The purpose of this is not for looks, it for getting better staging on my rear fill. Lets face it, car manufacturers do not place the speakers in the best places; e.g.: rear speakers usually face towards the front or straight up. I feel they sound best aimed towards the rear window, especially the tweeters, so they reflect off the glass. Remember, it is not the actual sound reproduction from the speakers that we hear, it mostly the reflection and since sound only has one point of direction, reflection is very important when stagin your speakers.
I have looked at Focal, A/D/S, JL Audio, and the Boston Acoustics 3-ways, dollar for dollar the CDT 3-ways are very close to the Focal 3-ways, but are $200 less. That is why I decided to go w/ the CDT's.
Same w/ subs, everyone talks MTX down, well I have used MTX since the Terminator series, and the only amps & subs I was ever disappointed with were the Thunder 4000, 6000, 8000 series, and the same series of amps. Looking into their new lines just shows that MTX tightened up and made drastic improvements on their products. I decided on the Diamond amps over the new MTX amps due to cost also, the D61000.1 diamond is $150 less than the same wRMS rated MTX amp, the MTX amp is 1200 wRMS @ 1ohm.
http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/technology/subMyths.cfm
That pretty much explains some of the technology.
As for my enclosure, I'm building another ported enclosure, this one will have slightly more volume, I want to achieve a nice medium between SQ and SPL.
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swez on 06/25/2005 08:28:06
This is a very good set of threads... a guy who knows what he wants, why to do it a certain way and thinking all the elements through. (including the price)
Tend to agree with the idea of bouncing tweets off the rear window and same with the front stage. This expands the coverage area of the highs a lot, rather than "beaming" highs toward the listener or having them dampened immediately by firing into a headliner or other sound absorbing surfaces. MR/MB are not as much an issue on "beaming". They blend into the car better and have less problems with absorbtion. Better SQ this way based on my own experimentation and live sound experiences.
As for the bass engine phase of the install, you have more experience in this area then probably anyone on this board. Even on a rough install, the outcome is likely to be well above average. (due to experience and a well trained set of ears) Trust that and go with your instincts and experience.
Hey, take plenty of pics and document the work in progress. This may be very helpful to others later. Keep up the good plan. (adjust as needed) This project sounds way cool already.
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/25/2005 09:50:29
Yes, I place much thought into every install I do, even the most basic ones. The install I presently have is pretty basic, as well as inexspensive, but the SQ is very good and the SPL is 140+. I used the Kenwood eXcelon coaxials b/c out of all the coaxial speakers I have used and installed, their SQ is hard to beat, even when compared to coaxial speakers 3 times their price. I have used Crystal Mobile Sound, Boston Acoustics, JL Audio, Pioneer, Memphis, JBL Power Series, etc... the eXcelons sound the best, this can be backed up w/ my own experiences and the fact that I usually scope my vehicle when installing the speakers and we all know the scope does not lie.
I staged my speakers, which most people thought was a waste of time b/c they are coaxials, but the results made them all begin to consider staging even coaxials. I used XTC baffles(this was before I figured out how to make my own) reinforced w/ eDead V1 on the inside, even though my speakers fit directly into the factory holes, I made special brackets out of MDF, so rather than the speakers firing directly to the front, the tweeters fire @ a 90 degree angle towards the back window. As for my front speakers, I opted to use 6.5's rather than the 5x7's b/c I do feel a round speaker give much better SQ and I felt my front stage was more important. I made several brackets, 4 or 5 all together until I found that spot that made the speakers come alive, they angle slightly up and towards the front, and they are also inside reinforced baffles.
I'm building the enclosure w/ 1" MDF vs 3/4", and will be using a router to make slots to set ea. connection point 1/8" into the 1" MDF, no screws or staples, I will be using high quality wood glue, and once the enclosure's sides, top and rear are complete, I will run a coat of spray-on bedliner(apprx. 1/8") over the interior of the enclosure and port area. The inside of the enclosure will also have no rough edges, it will all be sanded and rounded off for smooth edges. All this should, if my calculations are correct, give my enclosure less flex, and give the illusion that the subs a firing from the center of my car, which aiming will come into major play here.
As for my Head Unit, I'm sticking w/ the Panasonic MXE line, this install I will going w/ the 9901. This will be my 3rd, I have used the 883U, and the 8400 in the past. After using Clarion Pro Audio, Kenwood eXcelon, Pioneer Premier, Alpine, and Eclipse, I will stick to the MXE line. it has been the most reliable line I have used and the ease of use is good....also other than Eclipse, they have the most honest preout voltage ratings(5.0 volts), I have tested every other head unit and even the 8 volt Pioneer Premier is only 3.4 volts at certain frequencies, you must rermember how these ratings are achieved....they test these specs at the most optimal settings under the very best settings @ the factory...much like a cars MPG rating, this is recorded under the best possible conditions, not @ everyday driving.
I'm going to 0/1 ga wire, Streetwires. People can argue all they want, I've read people's opinions on the subject, but I have done personal tests using a variety of measuring devices, there is a difference, it is not "blowing smoke" as some like to say. Their opinion is not based on fact, mine are....strand count, the quality of wire used, etc... all play a role, Streetwires, in all of my tests, has proven to have the least resistance per ft, as well as the highest strand count, w/ the exception of KnuKonceptz, but the Knukonceptz has higher resistance.
My selection of amps is final, I have used everything from lower end Lanzar to the highest end Tru Technologies, I have even used various European amps which are not available here, Braxx and Hertz to name a few, hands down, $ for $, the Diamond amps are some of the best on the market today, True 1ohm stable(no cutoffs or gong into protect when running @ 1ohm like other amps), very honest RMS ratings(my 600.1 claims 600 wRMS @ 1ohm 14.4 volts..... when it was board tested @ 13.8 volts it produced 586 wRMS. Going to the D6 can only be an improvement.
As for porting my rear deck, this will be one of the more time consuming parts of the install, due to the fact I'm building a new enclosure, so my trunk volume will change......the subs will be different, therefore different specs and tuning, and i'm glassing the rear deck, so all some of the angles on my rear deck will be changing, so I will have to do many calculations and break out the scope again.
I feel this install will be kind of basic, but will produce competition level SQ, and great SPL.
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Victor on 06/25/2005 14:48:12
This is becoming a very good post for all to read, one must realise what level of planning goes into making a good car audio system.
One cant just dump in set of speakers amps and a pounding sub, it has to be planned, designed and calculated.
( IF LESS.. CALLS THIS A BASIC INSTALL , ONE MUST REALISE THAT IF SUCH AMOUNT OF PLANNING AND HARD WORK GOES INTO A BASIC INSTALL , HOW DIFFICULT IT WOULD BE TO CREATE AN AUDIOPHILE GRADE COMPETITION LEVEL SYSTEM )
Less...
I guess your choice of equipment is specifically what u want and i dont see a reason to argue on it, but now how your car sounds will purely depend on the install.
Regarding porting the rear deck, I have my own theories on it and I feel that porting the deck will of-course boost up a few db's but the overall performance shall go down, the sub system will perform good only in a specific pass-band ( the pass band for which the rear deck port is tuned for ) and not on all bass frequencies.
If it has to be a system more towards the SQ side i would go for nothing except a sealed or a Quater wavelength TL enclosure for a mix of excellent SQ and good SPL.
A ported enclosure in a ported trunk will kill a lot of SQ. ( cause in basics it is simply going to be a 6th order bandpass system in architecture. And 6th orders have noted poor transients which is bad for SQ systems. Yes the kind of sound re-inforcement one can achieve in such manner is amazing ( count anything from 5-10db rise ) but the trade off is going to be loss on SQ.
About building the enclosure.. i have stopped using 3/4" , i usually prefer the 1" boards.
About staging and imaging, you will need to do a lot of experimentation and spend a lot of time in your car listening to the music you know.
Please document this install well so that it can be helpful to many other car audio enthusiasts for refrence.
Victor..
swez on 06/25/2005 20:18:34
Like your idea on edge lip fit on the sub box. My brother has done a number of his Pro boxes that way and used a staple gun only to secure the joints physically until the glue cures. These have more surface area for glue to net a very strong joint. The only joint I know to be stronger is the dovetail. That is very time consuming, but used in high end furniture and Pro line boxes too.
Interesting info on RCA voltage output reading at different frequencies. Where are the volatage readings the largest and smallest, based on freq? (just curious... assuming all tone controls are set flat and no loudness controls are activated) Does your tone generator deliver a true 0dB reference level.
Finally, am very curious about how you determine the trunk port dimensions. A sub in a box, inside a pretty well sealed trunk seems to behave similar to a psudo-bandpass enclosure. However, if we have a sedan w/ flip down seats, that's more like a hatchback. Am wondering how you can determine the proper size opening in the rear deck to avoid undesirable bandpass effects?
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/25/2005 22:56:28
Victor,
I believe you may be correct about porting the rear deck, also, I think I want to spend much of my time on the scope w/ the comps I plan on installing. As for being a basic install, for me, this is a basic install. I'm very detailed in every install I do, be it my car, or some-one elses. When I use to compete, dB Drag and a few IASCA, I probably spent several weeks calculating, designing, and restructuring the vehicles interior for optimal SPL(dB Drag Racing) and/or SQ(IASCA). After everything was figured out on paper and the equipment decisions were finalized, I would spend probably 12 hours a day for 4 or 5 days getting everything right, for IASCA even more.
Most people, even most installers do not take the time to double check the tuning on a system, many use prefab enclosures, or take 6 pieces of wood and screw it together, and they seldom take the time to actually set down, relax, and listen to their car using a variety of music. When I do an install, I will roll down all the windows, open the doors, and stand 4 or 5 ft away to listen to my system, it is some excercise and it is time consuming....but can you actually properly tune a car while setting in it w/ the volume even halfway? I believe it is not possible, true clarity and the crispness of the highs comes from standing away from your. I do this all the time, a guy says he thinks his system sounds fine, so I say, open it up and come over hear....do you hear that...that is what I and eveyone else hears when you roll up.....most are amazed at how distorted and grinding their music sounds.
I'm still going ported on the enclosure, and it will not have any divider(all of my calculations tell me when using 2 subs on a class D amp, it is the way to go, it makes the subs more efficient. It will most likely have the corner port(for no other reason than I like that style of enclosure).
I'm presently debating 2 issues, the first is my choice in sub amp combo, I know I'm going w/ the MTX line, but for $175 more I can get 2 9500 12's, which means more power, so I'm considering the Diamond D61500.1, which is $129 more. I think the only gain here would be SPL, educated estimate 2 or 3 dB's, so is it worth $100 per dB????? Not sure yet, will make the final decision when I nuy the equipment. 2nd is my comps, the CDT Classics 3-ways are definate, but would I be better off going w/ something other than the Bostons for rear fill, I'm thinking yes, possibly the CDT Classic 2-ways, the wRMS ratings for the 3-ways is 150 wRMS and the 2-ways is 90 wRMS, I'm running a 75 wRMS @ 4ohm amp to them, I'm just thinking the CDT's may give me more of the overall SQ I'm seeking....something to think about and no difference in price.
Swez,
Here is the deal on RCA's, power cable, etc.... some use inferior wire, some use inexspensive insulationing materials, etc... from my tests, my top 3 choices are 1st Streetwires, 2nd JL Audio, and 3rd Knukonceptz. As for preout voltage, eXcelon claims 5 volt on their higher end models, @ certain frequencies it is under 4, some itr is down to the low 3's, Pioneer is really notorious for this, as is Alpine, none of the decks I tested, from thw lower end ones to the top-of-the-line models produced their rated preout voltage under various conditions...Eclipse and Panasonics MXE line did, Eclipse produced it across the spectrum, MXE produced it across most of the spectrum, but not all, but $429 compared to $599 for the Eclipse, I will save my $170 for a slightly lower spectrum.
So now, the rear deck porting is out, but will be reconsidered if I decide to do a dB Drag vehicle next season. I'm pretty much down to digging out my cabin volume measurements and trunk volume measurements and putting all on paper, then comes buying the equipment, and preparing my car for the install.
Last is my electrical system, the Big 3 is going to 0/1, I already use a Red Top 1000 CA 850 CCA 110 RC battery, but I'm getting a local shop to build a 180 amp, it will produce 90 amps @ idle(900-1000 RPMs). This should be sufficient to operate my system. I'm considering a possible 2 alt. concept like I do in dB Drag vehicles, the 110 for my car and the 180 for my system, but I truly do not want to go through all the hassles of regulators, isolators, and extra batteries, I mean this install is my everyday driver....so why waste time and money on that...I'm sure a 180 will operate my car efficiently.....I have a 110 now and it operates very well, my voltage stays in the range of 13.4-14.0 @ the dash, and 13.2-13.6 in the trunk.
Thanks for all the input on this thread, I do know what I want, and what equipment I want to run, but all the other technical suggestions and enclosure suggestions are very helpful. I have been doing this for over 23 years, and still feel the input of other professionals and fellow audiophiles is priceless.
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swez on 06/26/2005 10:18:49
I dunno Less, seems to me... you are the most well rounded guy on this board to date. Some of us "specialize" a bit in certain areas, but all that experience in car audio you have accumulated, makes for a very solid tech team on this site.
Ttocs has a solid background in installs as does UKInstaller. Kittle is also very proficient on installs and system packaging. (when he's available... working too hard) Comp VR is getting a good feel for things while Victor has been working very hard on Component placement and sub enclosure designs.
Swez... I'm just my kids' Dad and more of a generalist. Enjoy system design and integration primarily. (planning out the nitty gritty details) Have build a few boxes too, but mostly been focused on Pro Audio and some HT of late. Have a box full of gear to install by now... just wanting a newer vehicle to do it in.
Anyways, sure am glad you came to this site to help out. Have earned the respect of all and it takes some of the load off others too. Yippie!
Swez
PS There are many other talented folks here, not mention. Don't feel slighted OK? I'd be here all day... kuddos to all! USFLAG
lessismorespl on 06/26/2005 11:48:51
I appreciate the compliments. Over the years, I noticed most people into car audio would concentrate on one or two aspects of the audio system. Lets make a comparison to a dB Drag Competitor and a MECA Competitor:
A dB Drag competitor wants the produce as much SPL as possible out of their system, so they make themselves knowledgable in building high output enclosures specifically for SPL, they educate themselves on amps, subwoofers, sound dampening, etc....all specifically pointed towards maximum SPL.
Now we look at a MECA Competitor, this person is extremely detailed in speaker imaging, SQ qualities of amplifiers, enclosures that will produce the cleanest most accurate SQ of the system. They study sound enhancement(crossovers, epicenters, EQ's, etc...). It is nothing for a MECA Competitor to change what kind of speakers they use several times before they finally achieve the sound they want, they take great steps in aiming the subwoofer(s), tuning, and sound dampening also, but more to prevent road noise vs the dB Drag competitor who wants to seal his vehicles as best he/she can.
In shops, you have installers who just want to get the cars in & out(the "it's just a job" installer), you have the installers that spend much of their time on fabrication(the "it's all about how it looks" installer), the SPL installer that spends his/her time making the car as bass heavy as possible, and then you have the SQ installers that take a little more time and detail into how a car sounds(the "I can even make the lowest-end equipment sound good" installer).
I see myself as a good all around installer, being both a dB Drag competitor, and IASCA competitor, I believe I have learned a learned a little of both. Many places I have worked will say "he is a great installer, just slow", or "he does great installs that have incredible sound, he just spends too much time on the low-end people", although I feel low-end equipment is inferior to some of the higher-end equipment, it does not mean that it cannot sound good, or produce SPL, whichever the customer is seeking. To me, it does not matter if the person comes in and buys out cheapest subs, a prefab enclosure, and some low-end coaxials and low-end amps, if some time and detail is taken in the install, it can sound fairly good. I feel too many shops concentrate on the "Big Baller" customer and rush the hard working "Blue Collar" customer out of the store w/ a quick install. I feel all are equal, just b/c some0-one does not have $2K-$4K to spend on a system, does not mean they do not deserve the best install possible, regardless of how long it takes.
There is some very qualified individuals on here, I will be honest and say I do not agree w/ some of their views towards equipment, installs, and technical aspects, but as I said earlier in this thread, I find all feedback and suggestions priceless, even after over 23 years. If a person thinks he is the best, knows everything, and does the best installs, I welcome him to attend a IASCA or MECA competition......it will humble even the most arrogant installer or audiophile real fast.
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swez on 06/26/2005 14:47:05
Funny comment mentioned... "he's great... but kinda slow" was the jist of it. Am the same way with most thing important. It's about quality, not quantity to guys like that. Can't rush a great job, no matter what level the customer can afford.
Unfortunately, a lot of shop owners get antsy when too much labor goes into a "Joe Six-pack" install. But, what they don't see... is that Joe has many friends and will bring plenty of new biz if he is treated right. (Is that true or am I just wishing?)
On the other hand, how many shops frequently get new biz from Mr. Suave Audiophile? Or, for that matter, how many Mr. Suave's do most shops get in a season? Sure, it's a nice sale and plenty of profit for the owner and sales guy... but how many do most typical shops see of this caliber? Depends on locale right?
Also, realize that there are many here that have a different spin on what they are learning. Anyone who thinks they know it all.. doesn't... (that includes yours truly). There is also room for "opinions" based on (albiet, limited) experience. But hey, that's how we all start out right? I hope that our betters cut some slack and pull us off to one side and set things straight when we miss the mark. Some have and hope they continue to do so. That's how we learn the nitty gritty IMHO. A few well directed comments can change many a mans' outlook. the trick is getting the message across in a way others can "get it".
Finally, we all have a sense of what sounds good or trash in our own minds. What I consider pretty good, a MECA Comper would smile and say... "Bud, you're missing a few fries in that Happy Meal". But hey, it sounds good for the time and budget I have available... so, "to each their own".
Yadda, yadda, yadda,
Swez
PS Gotta make plans to head up to "Saginasty" this Fall and meet you for a coffee and chat. Hope to do some trout fishing then and would be going right past that zone. We'll see how things work out eh? If you like to fish, we can do that too! I'm game...
Am most familiar with spinning gear to date, but now hooked on fly fishing. Whole new concepts on presentation, delivery and technique... I am a newbie on the fly rod... but putting in as much time as possible to hone those skills. Wanna feel an 8-12 pound Sreelhead or Brown trout on my rigs. Don't have the gear or skills to land a 20+ lb Salmon yet... in time, perhaps?
lessismorespl on 06/26/2005 23:03:33
Don't fish much Swez, but there is a great COFFEE shop right downtown, which is where I live, in fact, I live right above it....they buy fresh cured coffee beans and roast them right in the shop....great smell to wake up to in the morning....and none of the beans are genric....Brazilian, Maya, Ethiopean, etc... very good stuff, I'm into coffee like I am my sound systems.
I agree w/ how it sounds, but when you show someone how it really sounds by standing away from the vehicle, and how easy it is to tune here & there to make it sound good, they are shocked....they will be "how much?" I tell tehm nothing, all I have to do is tune it in, just take a couple minutes, shop owner don't mind too often.
We get 3 or 4 baler installs a month, but not b/c of word of mouth. Many of our customers that come from word of mouth are from the Blue collar budget guys, "hey they did me right, go check them out". The baller guys always want something nobody else has, louder and more flashy than everyobne else, so they are not going to say much to their friends b/c they want to be Mr Slap Happy SPL on the block....amazingly enough, they often say "I want it louder than that guys over there...(pointing at me), and just as clean too....but louder ..... ya know!"
I really do not make many opinions, most of my post come from experience, be it in one of my cars, or some of the cars I have did installs in. Also,THINK I like to keep myself occupied, so I always play w/ stuff, board test amps, take manufacturer rep's sample subs and see how long they last being pushed to xmax @ 20 hz, DMM power wire and RCA's (we get them all the time...big money in installation accessories), I document all my little tests and experiments, like running the fusion 400 wRMS sub @ 300 wRMS free air @ 30 hz for less than 7 minutes, that is how long it lasted....the rep claimed it would change our minds about affordable equipment's quality....and it did....LOL....
less
P.S. I may change my name to "THE MaD INSTALLER".
Victor on 06/27/2005 02:54:45
I have noticed one thing about MAD audiophiles..hehe... al of em' love coffee..
Victor on 06/27/2005 02:56:39
I have noticed one thing about MAD audiophiles..hehe ( me too )... al of em' are as mad and particular for coffee as they are for their music and music systems.
Victor on 06/27/2005 03:17:20
lol... hey guys i am not angry... I just wrote "mad" in caps ...hehe..
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 08:11:14
Coffee is what keeps me going, especially when I'm upgrading my car and have some new ideas..........
And not just any coffee.....has to be fresh, strong, robust, and flavorful!
swez on 06/27/2005 09:52:44
This thread has been very illuminating. It's like new friends getting to know each other on a deeper level. (me likey... hehe)
Tweaking a system is so important and many try to do it from inside the vehicle at 125dB or more. That's just plain nuts. No one can do much at that SPL level and get great results. Learned that one day while working on a night club install.
Had a few minutes to kill before the team showed up, so I opened the doors, trunk and got out my tool pouch. Stood back of the car about 15 feet and just listened to the whole thing as is. Sounded good in the car, but when I was behind it, the mid/highs were a bit off. (too shrill, some minor clipping noted) Tried a few EQ tweaks, adjusted amp gains, trunk closed, trunk open a few inches etc.
After 5 minutes of back and forth, was very pleased with what I was now hearing both inside and outside the car. It was not a dramatic difference, but enough to say... "Hummm, that's more like it"! That was a few years back and that day, I knew this was a good practice to remember.
COFFEE is the jump-juice from heaven. Have tried many kinds and appreciate the robust flavors common to many South American beans. The finer the grind, the more flavor and caffine we get.
Same with a good beer... like the full and robust flavors of European beers and Indian Pale Ales. This, the Germans' seem to have mastered very well. But when they came to America, something changed. Bud, Papst, Coors, Miller... all have a pretty watered down taste. No punch, no zip, not even a great taste. Thank God for the new Micro-brews. Now we can have our cake and eat it too.
Anyway, coffee with Less (THE MAD INSTALLER) sounds like a great way to spend an hour or two chatting about stuff. If ya don't fish, no biggie... I enjoy it enough for two guys. We'll see how things go as Fall approaches.
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 12:45:11
Cool, I'm hoping to have my upgrades done by then, it all depends on my finacial situations over the summer......
I think it is hard to tell the difference, unless it is a completely true audiophile SQ system to tell the difference @ anything over 110 dB's.
As for my comment on an arrogant installer or some-one that thinks they have the "ultimate system"(I personally do not believe that the "ultimate system" exist....it's like saying I have the ultimate computer when we all know tomorrow will bring something new), I worked w/ this guy that thought he was "all that", nobody could tell him anything, he was always right...etc... I took him w/ me and my friend to a MECA comp, I had done the install on his car, he said nothing all the way home, just before we got to the shop, he was like "I have never heard a system sound that good in my life" and "did you see how that guy had his comps installed, they sounded great".....etc....etc....my friends car had taken 4th place in it's class, which made him look at me much different afterwards.....for the next several months it was "what do you think of this?" "How would you do this?".......as I said, some people are way over confident, they have this paranoid illusion that all car audio shops, all car audio manufacturers, etc...are out to put them in the poor farm while getting rich......trust me, when a mkanufacturer states something can do this or is capable of that, there are 100's of installers(like myself) out to prove it fact or fiction. I made $100 bet w/ another installer one time, w/ the Eclipse rep as witness, he said there was not way the 8454 could produce 8 volts across the spectrum b/c no other deck we had tested could, this included top-of-the-line eXcelon, Pioneer Premier, and Alpine......in short, I made $100 that day!
I have no problem calling out something, the JL Audio slash series amps, they boasted these amps could produce their RMS rating at even 10.5 volts.....IMO this had to be proven to me...guess what, the 500/1 putout 500 watts at not only 10.5 volts, but at an even 10 volts also, it came in @ 684 watts @ 13.8 volts.....ok, I was proven wrong, but what about being able to do this different impedances, again, it was all proven by my personal tests and various technical equipment.
When some-one tells me the only difference in a head unit is the name and preout voltage, I can pretty much argue by my own personal tsting of almost every unit on the market.....there are major differences, not only in true preout voltage, but in RMS ratings, CD Player quality, sound reproduction, and other features, such as crossovers and EQ's....my MXE has a 7 band fully programable EQ, how many others decks have that...most are presets, the Eclispe 8454 has a parametric EQ, the eXcelon has a feature which is great for dB Drag, you can actually turn the speaker outputs off and just run the sub out...displays and such are really not important, but I prefer my HU to be able to adjust to the sound I want, not to the sound they think is good.
Enough rants...back to my upgrades.
less
Victor on 06/27/2005 14:57:03
Less ..
you might want to have a look at this..
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE0C18A9-51E9-41F5-8B4F-14B76A2E3744/3576/BremenMP74.pdf
comments...??
Victor on 06/27/2005 15:05:23
oooops..!! thats the product manual.
Here's the express sheet..
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE0C18A9-51E9-41F5-8B4F-14B76A2E3744/4226/BremenMP75.pdf
comments...??
Victor..
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 16:33:18
That is my point Victor, how can some-one say that all head units are the same, other than # of preouts and the preout voltage?
I have found in my experiences that many of the corssovers in HU's are more accurate than the ones they use in most low-end to mid-range amplifiers. There are major differences in HU's, my 8400 has 5V preouts, which produce 5V's over a large spectrum, not just a small fraction of the sound spectrum, it also has excellent Xovers and SQ features, it cost me $319, to find all these features in a Pioneer Premier, Alpine, or eXcelon would cost me $150-250 more......I prefer Eclipse, but I am seriously looking into this unit, have never really been fond of Blaupunkt's product line, but this does seem like a very accurate HU. I will find a dealer close to me and see if I can't do some testing and play w/ one for a few days to see if it is all that it says it is. I'm pretty stuck on the new 9901 MXE, but am also looking at the Eclipse 8454, the price is about the same.
I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, I just know from experience that there is much more to various components of the audio system than manufacturer hype. As w/ power and ground wire, I can prove Streetwires has the least resistance of any other wire on the market, JL Audio is running a close second, and so is Knukonceptz, as for the rest they are all a step behind to these 3 manufacturers. I can also prove there are major differences in amps, Crossfire claims a 1ohm stable amp, I have ran both the VR and the BMF, both would go into protection after being run @ 1ohm, same w/ Hifonics, Kenwood/Kenwood eXcelon, Audiobahn, and several others. Kicker, Diamond Audio, Memphis, and Tru Technologies are the only amps I have used that do not cutout or go into protect @ 1ohm, now I have heard from various dB Drag competitors that the Finnish SPL Dynamic amps can actually handle a 1/2 ohm impedance, and the higher end Braxx can handle the 1ohm, but most amps that claim 1ohm stability cannot carry it for very long.....the new PG Xeon and the new JBL Power Servo amps can also, but I do not have hands on.
This thread is very fun, so much good stuff, it may take me longer to choose my equipment that I first thought.
less
Victor on 06/27/2005 17:37:08
well less.. That HU is surely way ahead of most HU's i have worked till now.. Pioneer premiers, Kenwoods, Alpines... have not had an experience with Clarion, Eclipse or Panasonic and many other brands.. but if its better tehn most alpines and pioneers then it definitely packs a punch..
You should really give a look to it and try it if u get a chance to..
Blau has such a good range now, dunno why they dont do wel in /US..
They are doing fantastically well in the Europe and the indian sub-continent.
Victor..
Here are a few more blau products worth giving a look to..
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/BlaupunktUSA/Products/ReceiversChangers/BestOfClass/Seattle+MP74.htm
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/BlaupunktUSA/Products/ReceiversChangers/BestOfClass/Los+Angeles+MP74.htm
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/0A308197-8A7D-43E1-B53C-83CF5C58C093/3315/ODw_Subwoofers.pdf
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/1204E93F-12F5-49B1-8111-9BD4DA272F22/3311/ODc_components.pdf
http://www.velocity.de/downloads/VELOCITY-E-2004-72-DPI.pdf
( Have a look at the specs of "Burning Desire II monobloc amp )
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/BlaupunktUSA/Products/Video/
Well.. i guess thats enuf to give you the idea how blau's progressing..It has a very different Image tho, not many like the executive looks and simplicity of their products.. they are high priced too..But i gues they are worth every penny
Victor...
swez on 06/27/2005 19:42:16
Totally agree, 100dB is even a tad too much for accurate tuning inside a vehicle. (90-95dB seems best from my personal experiments)
Once we get a few minutes af SPL above 110, the ears begin to attenuate certain frequencies for protection. If we have an RTA, SPL meter and a well calibrated mike, yes... can do it at higher SPL. But our ears tend to overload above 100dB in just a few minutes. So, accurate tuning by ear is practically null & void. (useless)
That Panasonic MXE HU sounds like a wonderful product. What do they cost at a decent discount? Got a detailed link?
Are we having fun yet?
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 22:01:24
I'm not sure it is still available, this years model is the 8401, I plan on getting the 9901 for my upgrade:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-8hj4mqzcvWr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=62700&id=features_and_specs&i=133C9901
But I noticed Crutchfield has last years 9700 on special for a very good price, it would save me close to $300:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-8hj4mqzcvWr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=62700&id=features_and_specs&i=133C9700
I'm very impressed w/ Panasonic's MXE line, here is the URL to their website w/ all of this years models:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelList?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&catGroupId=25028&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702
another good point, if you are into video, is that Panasonic video is incredibly clear, even when compared to Eclipse and eXcelon.
less
Victor on 06/27/2005 23:45:50
Weel I have never had an experience with any of panasonic products, but if less says the new MXE line is awesome i gotta believe him..
But if I look at the panasonic website without any influence.. and see this.
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=63071&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702
&surfModel=CJ-HD303&catGroupId=25033&surfCategory=Subwoofers&displayTab=S
the way they have written down the specs for the sub.. I would never trust them.
Its funny when sometimes different companies try to feature their product in absurd way using different terms. I dont say that sub is bad, but after reading that page i would not trust them. They got a funny peak input power spec on all speakers and no rms values..
Large dual dampers - yes.
Maximum power handling low distortion - yes.
Wide rubber edge - yes. ( how much is "wide" .???..lol)
Diaphragm with large center cap - no.
hehehehehe.,,,, are these called specs..lol
And they have done this on each and every driver they make and sell, wether it be components, coaxials or subs.. now that is not what is expected of such a reputed company.
And look what they got to say about the centre dust cap...this is the funniest..lol
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=61876&catGroupId=25033&modelNo=CJ-SW46&cacheProgram
=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702&surfModel=CJ-SW46
"""In addition, the large center caps effectively operate as acoustic high-cut filters, helping to remove spurious mid to high-range frequencies that are beyond the proper range of subwoofer reproduction.""""
Less i am not trying to prove u wrong or something, I trust that the MXE line HU's must be really good, but when looking at the rest of the products i dont see good stuff packed in it..THINK
comments...
Victor..
PS. It could be that like many other brands out there which are known only for certain products, panasonic HU's could be way better than the rest of their products..
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 09:13:27
So what are you trying to say? I'm kind of taking your rather sarcastic comments personal here! I have never said anything about their speakers/subs, only their Source Units, so where did all this come from?
less
Victor on 06/28/2005 09:33:34
You dont need to take it personally less..
Those comments were never aimed at you, I was just commenting on how panasonic as a reputed company still try's to do al the gimmicks which it does not need to.
As i said that I trust you read on their Hu's but the rest of their line does not seem solid.
This is a general thing now how companies try to fool consumers and those were my personal views and my read on such a company. Panasonic is not the only one in the game.. there are many more which take the road to gimmicks.
there are many companies out there which make certain products way up better then the rest and try to promote other products in the good name of a better few.
Please Dont take it personally it was never ever aimed at you.
Hope that clears the mis-understanding.
Victor...
And by the way , dont u think all that panasonic write about their speakers is really funny.
I know we were talking about HU's but i cud not resist but comment on their speakers after having a look at their site.
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 09:59:28
Well I'm not experienced w/ their speakers, I'm very selective in what I decide to run for equipment. I use to run Eclipse or Clarion Pro Audio, but I read about some of MXE features, then began researching thier HU's and was impressed, then when you figure in the cost compared to other units w/ similar features, I was even more impressed. I have never even looked at Panasonic speakers/subs....IMO there are too many great coaxials and components on the market in the same price range to even waste my time looking at Pioneer, Panasonic, or any other mid-grade speakers. I have always been impressed w/ the eXcelon coaxials, IMO they are hard to beat for SQ when compared to other coaxials in the same price range, just as Eclipse Point Source are hard to beat in that price range. When it comes to components, I have used or had experience w/ several companies; a/d/s, CDT, Boston Acoustic, MB Quart, Diamond Audio, JL Audio, Focal, etc....$4$ the CDT's are hard to beat, but I would prefer Focal, it is a price vs quality, CDT has excellent quality as does Focal, but for a better price IMO.
Point taken, but honestly, I would never use Panasonic speakers, I'm pretty set in what I use for my audio systems, even my budget systems are in the upper spectrums of quality.
less
cybersailor420 on 06/28/2005 12:07:55
Hey everyone. I have been reading along with this post, and it really is quite informative. Less has gotten me intriqued by this new Panasonic line. I used to use Panasonic head units, but for the last couple years I have been using the Pioneer Premier head units. I currently have the Pionner Premier 860. Do you think switching from this unit to the Panasonic 9901 would be beneficial? I the things I like about the 860 are the sub control, the 13 band EQ (I like to be able to tune my set as much as possible), and the cross-overs. I know it comes down to personal preference, but I would definitely like to hear your input/comparisons on these models. Thank you.
-Ian-
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 14:49:31
There are pros and cons on both of these units, the 9901 only has a 9 band fully programmable EQ, it does have the lowpass/highpass xovers, and I know the preout voltage is stronger than the 860(I do not care what the specs say, the DMM does not lie). So I guess you would have to figure in cost, the 9901 is $649, not sure what the 860 cost, but I know it probably right around that price. If you are satified w/ the 860, why change it? The 9901 is a great deck, but is it worth the cost to replace. I know the 860 boast 6.5 volt preouts, but they are actually 3.4 across the spectrum, it can putout 6.5 volts, but only under optimal conditions and perfectly set frequencies. All I see you gaining is a more accurate, as well as stronger signal, the 9901 tested 4.6 volts across the spectrum, 5.0 volts optimal. If you are really interested in upgrading to a better deck, and money is not a factor, try the Eclipse 8454, it is probably the best source unit on the market, it runs $699.99, but most shops sell them for around $599.99, you can find them at authorized dealers sometimes for as low as $509.99. If I was not on a strict budget for this install, I would probably go w/ the Eclipse deck, I still may depending on what I decide to do.
less
cybersailor420 on 06/28/2005 17:42:41
Thank you. That is the information I was looking for. I guess I will stick with my head unit for now, I do like it. Although I'm sure you only buy things from authorized dealers, I thought you might be interested in this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18798&item=7526991200&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
The Panasonic 9901 is also for sale on ebay for $419.
-Ian-
swez on 06/28/2005 18:10:44
Panasonic does indeed appear to have several great Premium HU's in thier play book. Not into car video at this time, but will take your word for it that they get that right too.
As for Victor's comments about Panasonic speaker specs... I agree... pretty lame details and would not entice me to look there for speakers either. Same syndrome with Sony, more hype then substance.
However, Kenwood, Alpine, Pioneer and a few other Japanese based products do perform and are well documented for the discriminating consumer. Wonder why these other companies take such a casual or even deceptive marketing approach in such a competitive market? I refuse to look at Sony websites for any substantial details on a given product. It's all bun and no meat. Have a look:
http://www.xplodsony.com/#
Check out the Xplode series specs??? XM-SD46X
Ad Hoc power @ 4 ohms, THD%, 60x4
Ad Hoc power @ 2 ohms, THD%, 75x4
Not to mention the annoying popups and a noxious audio clip too. Gimme a break!
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 21:42:55
I agree about the spec sheets Panasonic uses for their speakers, very vague, I never really looked at them before b/c I was never impressed w/ their speaker line, we do carry their speaker line, it always seemed kind of low-end and lacking in quality from what I seen in the shop.
If you made a car audio product like Sony, would you want to show off your specs? LOL
Yes, Alpine, Kenwood, and Pioneer are staples in the car audio industry. Pioneer was the first to manufacture the detachable face plate, Kenwood was the first to use the motrized face, remember the D-Mask units, and Alpine was always known for their quality source units, and now even their amps and subs are of decent quality.....I would take their entry-level Type E's over a long list of other manufacturer's entry level subs.
Well, here are my ALMOST final decisions, along w/ O.T.D. cost and MSRP, and all of which is being purchased from authorized dealers. Comments are welcome, as long as they are intelligent and knowledgable:(my cost/MSRP)
Source Unit: Eclipse 8454 $486/$689.99
Front Stage: CDT Audio CL-641 3-way $340/$489.99
Rear Fill: Focal 165CV 6.5" coaxials $198/$289.99
Mono amp: Diamond Audio D6 1500.1 $468/$599.99
4 ch. amp: Diamond Audio D6 600.4 $425/$499.99
Subwoofers: 2X MTX Audio 9500 1244 $740/$1199.98
I will be building the enclosure out of 1" MDF of which I plan on treating w/ a 1/8" coat of spray-on sound dampening, and the inside corners will all be rounded off and there will be no rough edges w/in the internal volume of the enclosure, everything from the port extension to all conrers will be rounded off. I'm going w/ an internal volume of 4.20 sq ft ^3 and will be using my favorite corner port design tuning it to 32hz.
All my speakers will be set in my homemade baffles and staged w/ a scope for optimal SQ, I'm not glassing my rear deck, however I will be redesigning it w/ some 3/8 MDF and doing my best to match the factory carpet, the rear deck ports will gone, I will be completely coating my rear deck in roll-on sound dampening, the 3/8 MDF will get about 3 coats once it is sized in and sanded down to match the original rear deck covering. I'm going w/ the MDF so I can make new opening for the Focal speakers, I will stage them w/ the scope before I cutout the openings in the MDF. The rear deck is completely sealed w/ sound dampening now, w/ the exception of the port holes which will be covered over w/ sound dampening. I will do a cutout of the center section of my rear seat and make it so I can fold it down, I would do the whole seat, but it will be enough work just doing a small 2' X 2.5' section and making it look good.
I'm going to Streetwires 0/1 ga wire for the entire upfrade, including the Big 3 and I have just talked to the Irragi rep and he is givng me a great deal on a 180 amp alt including the voltage regulator. I will continue to use the Red Top 1000 CA 850 CCA 110 RC battery, I will use the Streetwires Zero Noise 2 RCA's I'm using now, as well as the Streetwires Dist. Block and battery terminals, so accessories will cost me little of nothing, I'm also going to use my Audio Control Epic-150.
I'm saving right about $1K on equipment and this is buying from authorized dealers and I am not using any insider discounts, just buying from 2 shops that I frequent quite often and enjoy doing business with.
I'm using roll-on deadener for the floor boards, doors, and hard to reach areas of the trunk. The bumper cover is being taken off, and I will use silicone and eDead V1 for that, I will line the eDead on the nside of the bumper cover and use the deadener on the actual metal areas of the bumper. The bottom of the trunk will get 3 layers of the roll-on deadener, the doors 2, and floor boards 2, the head liner will recieive 1 coat.
I still figure 20 more hours in calculations and paper work on this install, so I'm probably looking at 2-3 months in my spare time to get it all completed. Any comments are welocme, as are suggestions. The equipment is pretty much a final decision, but anyone is welcome to make suggestions on it also.
less
I'm hitting low 140's now, figuring w/ the well built enclosure, and some serious sound deadening, I should be able to get low to mid 150's, and still have excellent SQ.
swez on 06/29/2005 06:12:12
Man, that's a lot of work, time and cash invested... but if/when you get it the way you want it, will be worth every cent and minute doing same. Nice plan of attack here. Very well detailed, organized and some great gear/prices too. This will be a fun summer project huh?
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/29/2005 07:21:54
Yes, it will probably take me all summer, figure a few hours here and there at the shop, plus what I can do at home on my own, it will be a long road. Also I can't afford to drop all that money at once, so the equipment will be purchased as I get the extra money.....w/ having my new son, he can be rather costly, but he always comes first.
Much of the sound dampening will be done in steps also, go in early and do a coat, so it is dry by the time I leave work, then if nothing is in the way the next day, another coat. As for the cosmetic changes, I'm so detailed in what I do, I know that will take forever, and most likely willnot be happy w/ the first go around and will have to do it again..........
less
swez on 06/29/2005 11:25:33
Sounds familiar... perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. But perfect is not always needed. Sometimes, Less is More.... hehe Could not resist that one either.
The sound dampening phase of this project seems most tedious, but will be one of the best factors down the road. Just make sure we take time to smell the roses as we dive in on long term projects. Every stage can be a minor victory worth celebrating.
I gotta go now, my project is calling and I just want to get it done and get paid as well. Back out to the sweat shop for a few hours of tinkering and tweaking. LOL (You want it when?) Back at this later.
Swez
swez on 06/30/2005 09:15:15
Thanks Victor, for that stretched link. Now, the whole page is off the screen again.
Can you try cropping the link into smaller segments? Sometimes this works, sometimes it won't.
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/30/2005 20:36:11
Thanks for the suggestion Victor, but have used Clarion Pro audio HU's before, DXZ725, DXZ925, and the DXZ845MC. I'm not real fond of thier HU's, not saying they are not quality, just not real fond of the cosmetics, the buttons are usually so small, even a baby would have trouble hitting the right one on the first try, the preout voltage is kind of over-rated, (yes, me and my DMM again!), and on my 725 and my 925 had problems w/ the preouts shorting for no reason, just one day turn on my system and here is that annoying wine even w/ the volume tunred all the way down. I went to the Panasonic MXE after having these 3 units, I had the DXZ845MC before it was really released, around the end of 03, I got it from a friend that goes to this huge electronics show based in Hong Kong, he had knew I was running clarion so he bought it back for me. I ran Kenwood eXcelon beofre that, and Eclipse before that, but the older Eclipse were notorious for skipping @ anything over 135 dB's, they fixed that problem so I've decided to go back to them, if I'm not impressed, I will go back to my Panasonic MXE.
Yeah Swez, I made that mistake once myself, I try not to cut n paste the entire link anymore.....LOL......
swez on 07/1/2005 17:38:35
On some of the longer links, have found it will often work by splitting up the link into short segments. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
Victor, am c/p your previous info so I can delete that message and return to a normal screen on this post.
Victor says: "Less... That eclipse is unquestionably an EXCELLENT HU...you may want to give a look to these too..
http://www.clarion.com/usa/products/source_units/DXZ945MP.html
The only difference i see where the Clarion would lack is the Preamp output.. and where it would get a nich over eclipse is the Dolby Prologic II and the AC processors III...
The clarion is priced at a decent $ 599.99 (MSRP).
Victor..."
Edited by Swez
PS Dropped the .pdf link and screen is back to normal again. I could not crop that link to make it work properly.
For my front stage, CL-641 - CDT Audio Classic 4"/6.5" 3-Way Component Speakers,and for the rear fill Boston Acoustics SL80 5x7 component's.
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm working this upgrade on a strict budget.
less
Replies (44)
UKinstaller on 06/22/2005 23:12:40
a great way to save some serious money and to make your system sound better is to not run any rear speakers. just run a nice set of components up front with a modest two channel amp with a high pass filter and you will be golden.
i don't know how many other people on this site don't use rear fill, but i don't and it sounds sooooo much better.
-UK
compvr15s on 06/23/2005 00:14:13
i agree. rear fill is not needed, especially with an amped set of comps up front. i have just stock 4x6s in the front of a lumina and it sound fine imagine a good set of seperates would be spectacular.
ttocs on 06/23/2005 00:46:43
i am still a fan of rear fill myself. Doesn't have to be much but I want a little.....
montego_27 on 06/23/2005 05:48:55
Your set-up is very similar to mine, Less. I'm running CDT 3-ways up front off a Kenwwod 2-channel (150x2) Alpine Class D running two 10' Alpine type R's in trunk.But I have a third amp (Alpine 50x2) running my rear deck, which is two Audiobahn 6x9 2-way (mid and mid-woofer) with separate tweeters mounted up in the rear pillars. I ran for a bit w/ just the front stage and then decided to experiment w/ the back, first with the 6x9's, it sounded better so then decided to try some tweets.What a difference! Being in the front seat the rear sound comes to you on a few milliseconds delay. This creates an incredible surround effect.Others that hear it say they've never heard anything like it. Just make sure you've got some protection on the back of the 5x7's or they will get beat up.I also have my trunk ported similar to yours, and there's a lot of air being pushed around back there.As for the amps, I've heard some good things about Crossfires but I think I would go with the Diamonds.You've had them before and were happy with them so I would go with what's tried and true. Nice upgrade, Tego
lessismorespl on 06/23/2005 20:31:33
Personally, after many years of attending shows and listening to many cars, if everything is staged properly and tuned correctly, rear fill can really enhance the overall SQ of a car. MECA is probably on of the strictest in competition and most the world finals winners have rear fill. I gave it some thought in doing this upgrade, and decided I would go w/ the rear fill.
I decided I'm definately going w/ the Diamonds, after talking to several people on other forums, there have been some problems running the Crossfires at 1ohm, I presently have the D3 Diamonds and run the 600.1 @ 1ohm and have never had a problem, so my experience w/ them tells me the D6 can only be a step up.
I will have to modify my rear deck again b/c it is ported, and all the calculations and specifications will change b/c the 8500 is a far more superior sub when compared to the W3. All in good time.
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I was mainly looking for feedback about my choice of equipment...good experiences, bad experiences...etc...
less
Victor on 06/24/2005 10:46:03
Well.. Less..
Your years of experience in car audio is very well reflected in the choice of equipment you have made.
Those Diamond amps are really trustworthy and clean as well as powerful.
Give a thought to Focal 3-ways , am not saying the CDT's are weak in any ways, they are awesome too. but if i had a good budget focal would be at a higher priority on my shopping list.
About the rear fill, I would not ask you to ignore it cause a rear stage is very important to create a sense of space. But the front stage always has a higher priority and I usually do 1:3 power ratio on front :rear fill.
Also with some modifications you can put in 2 way 6.5" components instead of those 5x7" , much cleaner and will give you lot of flexibility to handle the rear staging.
I have stopped suggesting the use of coaxials in high end car audio system, simply because of the staging and imaging limitations they have and also because i have never digested the idea of an oval speaker cause they tend to loose the surface integrity on certain points on its circumference on higher excursion.
Also you can think of a MB driver in the centre console to get the bass upfront, if a MB driver is handled well you can get a good boost in the front stage and the left-right transition and imaging will enhance amazingly.
I guess i do not need to tell u all this as you are far more experienced then most of us out here..
Anyways. your choice of equipment and the suggestion on equipments you have been giving on the forum has greately changed the view of many on certain products and people have started adopting different brands then the usual ones which were rampant everywhere..
Would take a chance to appreciate your help and expertise and wish you luck on your new upgrade.
Victor..
Victor on 06/24/2005 10:48:54
eeeeeks.. sorry if i made up a mess on the front : rear ratio, was going thru my reply and it struck me....
what i meant to say was that if the rear stage is powered with 50wrms the the front would be 150wrms..
VictorGRIN
lessismorespl on 06/25/2005 07:54:10
Well noted Victor. The Boston 2-way component is not an oval speaker, it is a round midbass w/ a tweeter, however when you think about staging, they are mounted in a plate much like a coaxial, so staging may be difficult. I plan on fiberglassing my rear deck this time around, nothing fancy, just fiberglass and then covering it w/ matching interior carpet. The purpose of this is not for looks, it for getting better staging on my rear fill. Lets face it, car manufacturers do not place the speakers in the best places; e.g.: rear speakers usually face towards the front or straight up. I feel they sound best aimed towards the rear window, especially the tweeters, so they reflect off the glass. Remember, it is not the actual sound reproduction from the speakers that we hear, it mostly the reflection and since sound only has one point of direction, reflection is very important when stagin your speakers.
I have looked at Focal, A/D/S, JL Audio, and the Boston Acoustics 3-ways, dollar for dollar the CDT 3-ways are very close to the Focal 3-ways, but are $200 less. That is why I decided to go w/ the CDT's.
Same w/ subs, everyone talks MTX down, well I have used MTX since the Terminator series, and the only amps & subs I was ever disappointed with were the Thunder 4000, 6000, 8000 series, and the same series of amps. Looking into their new lines just shows that MTX tightened up and made drastic improvements on their products. I decided on the Diamond amps over the new MTX amps due to cost also, the D61000.1 diamond is $150 less than the same wRMS rated MTX amp, the MTX amp is 1200 wRMS @ 1ohm.
http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/technology/subMyths.cfm
That pretty much explains some of the technology.
As for my enclosure, I'm building another ported enclosure, this one will have slightly more volume, I want to achieve a nice medium between SQ and SPL.
less
swez on 06/25/2005 08:28:06
This is a very good set of threads... a guy who knows what he wants, why to do it a certain way and thinking all the elements through. (including the price)
Tend to agree with the idea of bouncing tweets off the rear window and same with the front stage. This expands the coverage area of the highs a lot, rather than "beaming" highs toward the listener or having them dampened immediately by firing into a headliner or other sound absorbing surfaces. MR/MB are not as much an issue on "beaming". They blend into the car better and have less problems with absorbtion. Better SQ this way based on my own experimentation and live sound experiences.
As for the bass engine phase of the install, you have more experience in this area then probably anyone on this board. Even on a rough install, the outcome is likely to be well above average. (due to experience and a well trained set of ears) Trust that and go with your instincts and experience.
Hey, take plenty of pics and document the work in progress. This may be very helpful to others later. Keep up the good plan. (adjust as needed) This project sounds way cool already.
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/25/2005 09:50:29
Yes, I place much thought into every install I do, even the most basic ones. The install I presently have is pretty basic, as well as inexspensive, but the SQ is very good and the SPL is 140+. I used the Kenwood eXcelon coaxials b/c out of all the coaxial speakers I have used and installed, their SQ is hard to beat, even when compared to coaxial speakers 3 times their price. I have used Crystal Mobile Sound, Boston Acoustics, JL Audio, Pioneer, Memphis, JBL Power Series, etc... the eXcelons sound the best, this can be backed up w/ my own experiences and the fact that I usually scope my vehicle when installing the speakers and we all know the scope does not lie.
I staged my speakers, which most people thought was a waste of time b/c they are coaxials, but the results made them all begin to consider staging even coaxials. I used XTC baffles(this was before I figured out how to make my own) reinforced w/ eDead V1 on the inside, even though my speakers fit directly into the factory holes, I made special brackets out of MDF, so rather than the speakers firing directly to the front, the tweeters fire @ a 90 degree angle towards the back window. As for my front speakers, I opted to use 6.5's rather than the 5x7's b/c I do feel a round speaker give much better SQ and I felt my front stage was more important. I made several brackets, 4 or 5 all together until I found that spot that made the speakers come alive, they angle slightly up and towards the front, and they are also inside reinforced baffles.
I'm building the enclosure w/ 1" MDF vs 3/4", and will be using a router to make slots to set ea. connection point 1/8" into the 1" MDF, no screws or staples, I will be using high quality wood glue, and once the enclosure's sides, top and rear are complete, I will run a coat of spray-on bedliner(apprx. 1/8") over the interior of the enclosure and port area. The inside of the enclosure will also have no rough edges, it will all be sanded and rounded off for smooth edges. All this should, if my calculations are correct, give my enclosure less flex, and give the illusion that the subs a firing from the center of my car, which aiming will come into major play here.
As for my Head Unit, I'm sticking w/ the Panasonic MXE line, this install I will going w/ the 9901. This will be my 3rd, I have used the 883U, and the 8400 in the past. After using Clarion Pro Audio, Kenwood eXcelon, Pioneer Premier, Alpine, and Eclipse, I will stick to the MXE line. it has been the most reliable line I have used and the ease of use is good....also other than Eclipse, they have the most honest preout voltage ratings(5.0 volts), I have tested every other head unit and even the 8 volt Pioneer Premier is only 3.4 volts at certain frequencies, you must rermember how these ratings are achieved....they test these specs at the most optimal settings under the very best settings @ the factory...much like a cars MPG rating, this is recorded under the best possible conditions, not @ everyday driving.
I'm going to 0/1 ga wire, Streetwires. People can argue all they want, I've read people's opinions on the subject, but I have done personal tests using a variety of measuring devices, there is a difference, it is not "blowing smoke" as some like to say. Their opinion is not based on fact, mine are....strand count, the quality of wire used, etc... all play a role, Streetwires, in all of my tests, has proven to have the least resistance per ft, as well as the highest strand count, w/ the exception of KnuKonceptz, but the Knukonceptz has higher resistance.
My selection of amps is final, I have used everything from lower end Lanzar to the highest end Tru Technologies, I have even used various European amps which are not available here, Braxx and Hertz to name a few, hands down, $ for $, the Diamond amps are some of the best on the market today, True 1ohm stable(no cutoffs or gong into protect when running @ 1ohm like other amps), very honest RMS ratings(my 600.1 claims 600 wRMS @ 1ohm 14.4 volts..... when it was board tested @ 13.8 volts it produced 586 wRMS. Going to the D6 can only be an improvement.
As for porting my rear deck, this will be one of the more time consuming parts of the install, due to the fact I'm building a new enclosure, so my trunk volume will change......the subs will be different, therefore different specs and tuning, and i'm glassing the rear deck, so all some of the angles on my rear deck will be changing, so I will have to do many calculations and break out the scope again.
I feel this install will be kind of basic, but will produce competition level SQ, and great SPL.
less
Victor on 06/25/2005 14:48:12
This is becoming a very good post for all to read, one must realise what level of planning goes into making a good car audio system.
One cant just dump in set of speakers amps and a pounding sub, it has to be planned, designed and calculated.
( IF LESS.. CALLS THIS A BASIC INSTALL , ONE MUST REALISE THAT IF SUCH AMOUNT OF PLANNING AND HARD WORK GOES INTO A BASIC INSTALL , HOW DIFFICULT IT WOULD BE TO CREATE AN AUDIOPHILE GRADE COMPETITION LEVEL SYSTEM )
Less...
I guess your choice of equipment is specifically what u want and i dont see a reason to argue on it, but now how your car sounds will purely depend on the install.
Regarding porting the rear deck, I have my own theories on it and I feel that porting the deck will of-course boost up a few db's but the overall performance shall go down, the sub system will perform good only in a specific pass-band ( the pass band for which the rear deck port is tuned for ) and not on all bass frequencies.
If it has to be a system more towards the SQ side i would go for nothing except a sealed or a Quater wavelength TL enclosure for a mix of excellent SQ and good SPL.
A ported enclosure in a ported trunk will kill a lot of SQ. ( cause in basics it is simply going to be a 6th order bandpass system in architecture. And 6th orders have noted poor transients which is bad for SQ systems. Yes the kind of sound re-inforcement one can achieve in such manner is amazing ( count anything from 5-10db rise ) but the trade off is going to be loss on SQ.
About building the enclosure.. i have stopped using 3/4" , i usually prefer the 1" boards.
About staging and imaging, you will need to do a lot of experimentation and spend a lot of time in your car listening to the music you know.
Please document this install well so that it can be helpful to many other car audio enthusiasts for refrence.
Victor..
swez on 06/25/2005 20:18:34
Like your idea on edge lip fit on the sub box. My brother has done a number of his Pro boxes that way and used a staple gun only to secure the joints physically until the glue cures. These have more surface area for glue to net a very strong joint. The only joint I know to be stronger is the dovetail. That is very time consuming, but used in high end furniture and Pro line boxes too.
Interesting info on RCA voltage output reading at different frequencies. Where are the volatage readings the largest and smallest, based on freq? (just curious... assuming all tone controls are set flat and no loudness controls are activated) Does your tone generator deliver a true 0dB reference level.
Finally, am very curious about how you determine the trunk port dimensions. A sub in a box, inside a pretty well sealed trunk seems to behave similar to a psudo-bandpass enclosure. However, if we have a sedan w/ flip down seats, that's more like a hatchback. Am wondering how you can determine the proper size opening in the rear deck to avoid undesirable bandpass effects?
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/25/2005 22:56:28
Victor,
I believe you may be correct about porting the rear deck, also, I think I want to spend much of my time on the scope w/ the comps I plan on installing. As for being a basic install, for me, this is a basic install. I'm very detailed in every install I do, be it my car, or some-one elses. When I use to compete, dB Drag and a few IASCA, I probably spent several weeks calculating, designing, and restructuring the vehicles interior for optimal SPL(dB Drag Racing) and/or SQ(IASCA). After everything was figured out on paper and the equipment decisions were finalized, I would spend probably 12 hours a day for 4 or 5 days getting everything right, for IASCA even more.
Most people, even most installers do not take the time to double check the tuning on a system, many use prefab enclosures, or take 6 pieces of wood and screw it together, and they seldom take the time to actually set down, relax, and listen to their car using a variety of music. When I do an install, I will roll down all the windows, open the doors, and stand 4 or 5 ft away to listen to my system, it is some excercise and it is time consuming....but can you actually properly tune a car while setting in it w/ the volume even halfway? I believe it is not possible, true clarity and the crispness of the highs comes from standing away from your. I do this all the time, a guy says he thinks his system sounds fine, so I say, open it up and come over hear....do you hear that...that is what I and eveyone else hears when you roll up.....most are amazed at how distorted and grinding their music sounds.
I'm still going ported on the enclosure, and it will not have any divider(all of my calculations tell me when using 2 subs on a class D amp, it is the way to go, it makes the subs more efficient. It will most likely have the corner port(for no other reason than I like that style of enclosure).
I'm presently debating 2 issues, the first is my choice in sub amp combo, I know I'm going w/ the MTX line, but for $175 more I can get 2 9500 12's, which means more power, so I'm considering the Diamond D61500.1, which is $129 more. I think the only gain here would be SPL, educated estimate 2 or 3 dB's, so is it worth $100 per dB????? Not sure yet, will make the final decision when I nuy the equipment. 2nd is my comps, the CDT Classics 3-ways are definate, but would I be better off going w/ something other than the Bostons for rear fill, I'm thinking yes, possibly the CDT Classic 2-ways, the wRMS ratings for the 3-ways is 150 wRMS and the 2-ways is 90 wRMS, I'm running a 75 wRMS @ 4ohm amp to them, I'm just thinking the CDT's may give me more of the overall SQ I'm seeking....something to think about and no difference in price.
Swez,
Here is the deal on RCA's, power cable, etc.... some use inferior wire, some use inexspensive insulationing materials, etc... from my tests, my top 3 choices are 1st Streetwires, 2nd JL Audio, and 3rd Knukonceptz. As for preout voltage, eXcelon claims 5 volt on their higher end models, @ certain frequencies it is under 4, some itr is down to the low 3's, Pioneer is really notorious for this, as is Alpine, none of the decks I tested, from thw lower end ones to the top-of-the-line models produced their rated preout voltage under various conditions...Eclipse and Panasonics MXE line did, Eclipse produced it across the spectrum, MXE produced it across most of the spectrum, but not all, but $429 compared to $599 for the Eclipse, I will save my $170 for a slightly lower spectrum.
So now, the rear deck porting is out, but will be reconsidered if I decide to do a dB Drag vehicle next season. I'm pretty much down to digging out my cabin volume measurements and trunk volume measurements and putting all on paper, then comes buying the equipment, and preparing my car for the install.
Last is my electrical system, the Big 3 is going to 0/1, I already use a Red Top 1000 CA 850 CCA 110 RC battery, but I'm getting a local shop to build a 180 amp, it will produce 90 amps @ idle(900-1000 RPMs). This should be sufficient to operate my system. I'm considering a possible 2 alt. concept like I do in dB Drag vehicles, the 110 for my car and the 180 for my system, but I truly do not want to go through all the hassles of regulators, isolators, and extra batteries, I mean this install is my everyday driver....so why waste time and money on that...I'm sure a 180 will operate my car efficiently.....I have a 110 now and it operates very well, my voltage stays in the range of 13.4-14.0 @ the dash, and 13.2-13.6 in the trunk.
Thanks for all the input on this thread, I do know what I want, and what equipment I want to run, but all the other technical suggestions and enclosure suggestions are very helpful. I have been doing this for over 23 years, and still feel the input of other professionals and fellow audiophiles is priceless.
less
swez on 06/26/2005 10:18:49
I dunno Less, seems to me... you are the most well rounded guy on this board to date. Some of us "specialize" a bit in certain areas, but all that experience in car audio you have accumulated, makes for a very solid tech team on this site.
Ttocs has a solid background in installs as does UKInstaller. Kittle is also very proficient on installs and system packaging. (when he's available... working too hard) Comp VR is getting a good feel for things while Victor has been working very hard on Component placement and sub enclosure designs.
Swez... I'm just my kids' Dad and more of a generalist. Enjoy system design and integration primarily. (planning out the nitty gritty details) Have build a few boxes too, but mostly been focused on Pro Audio and some HT of late. Have a box full of gear to install by now... just wanting a newer vehicle to do it in.
Anyways, sure am glad you came to this site to help out. Have earned the respect of all and it takes some of the load off others too. Yippie!
Swez
PS There are many other talented folks here, not mention. Don't feel slighted OK? I'd be here all day... kuddos to all! USFLAG
lessismorespl on 06/26/2005 11:48:51
I appreciate the compliments. Over the years, I noticed most people into car audio would concentrate on one or two aspects of the audio system. Lets make a comparison to a dB Drag Competitor and a MECA Competitor:
A dB Drag competitor wants the produce as much SPL as possible out of their system, so they make themselves knowledgable in building high output enclosures specifically for SPL, they educate themselves on amps, subwoofers, sound dampening, etc....all specifically pointed towards maximum SPL.
Now we look at a MECA Competitor, this person is extremely detailed in speaker imaging, SQ qualities of amplifiers, enclosures that will produce the cleanest most accurate SQ of the system. They study sound enhancement(crossovers, epicenters, EQ's, etc...). It is nothing for a MECA Competitor to change what kind of speakers they use several times before they finally achieve the sound they want, they take great steps in aiming the subwoofer(s), tuning, and sound dampening also, but more to prevent road noise vs the dB Drag competitor who wants to seal his vehicles as best he/she can.
In shops, you have installers who just want to get the cars in & out(the "it's just a job" installer), you have the installers that spend much of their time on fabrication(the "it's all about how it looks" installer), the SPL installer that spends his/her time making the car as bass heavy as possible, and then you have the SQ installers that take a little more time and detail into how a car sounds(the "I can even make the lowest-end equipment sound good" installer).
I see myself as a good all around installer, being both a dB Drag competitor, and IASCA competitor, I believe I have learned a learned a little of both. Many places I have worked will say "he is a great installer, just slow", or "he does great installs that have incredible sound, he just spends too much time on the low-end people", although I feel low-end equipment is inferior to some of the higher-end equipment, it does not mean that it cannot sound good, or produce SPL, whichever the customer is seeking. To me, it does not matter if the person comes in and buys out cheapest subs, a prefab enclosure, and some low-end coaxials and low-end amps, if some time and detail is taken in the install, it can sound fairly good. I feel too many shops concentrate on the "Big Baller" customer and rush the hard working "Blue Collar" customer out of the store w/ a quick install. I feel all are equal, just b/c some0-one does not have $2K-$4K to spend on a system, does not mean they do not deserve the best install possible, regardless of how long it takes.
There is some very qualified individuals on here, I will be honest and say I do not agree w/ some of their views towards equipment, installs, and technical aspects, but as I said earlier in this thread, I find all feedback and suggestions priceless, even after over 23 years. If a person thinks he is the best, knows everything, and does the best installs, I welcome him to attend a IASCA or MECA competition......it will humble even the most arrogant installer or audiophile real fast.
less
swez on 06/26/2005 14:47:05
Funny comment mentioned... "he's great... but kinda slow" was the jist of it. Am the same way with most thing important. It's about quality, not quantity to guys like that. Can't rush a great job, no matter what level the customer can afford.
Unfortunately, a lot of shop owners get antsy when too much labor goes into a "Joe Six-pack" install. But, what they don't see... is that Joe has many friends and will bring plenty of new biz if he is treated right. (Is that true or am I just wishing?)
On the other hand, how many shops frequently get new biz from Mr. Suave Audiophile? Or, for that matter, how many Mr. Suave's do most shops get in a season? Sure, it's a nice sale and plenty of profit for the owner and sales guy... but how many do most typical shops see of this caliber? Depends on locale right?
Also, realize that there are many here that have a different spin on what they are learning. Anyone who thinks they know it all.. doesn't... (that includes yours truly). There is also room for "opinions" based on (albiet, limited) experience. But hey, that's how we all start out right? I hope that our betters cut some slack and pull us off to one side and set things straight when we miss the mark. Some have and hope they continue to do so. That's how we learn the nitty gritty IMHO. A few well directed comments can change many a mans' outlook. the trick is getting the message across in a way others can "get it".
Finally, we all have a sense of what sounds good or trash in our own minds. What I consider pretty good, a MECA Comper would smile and say... "Bud, you're missing a few fries in that Happy Meal". But hey, it sounds good for the time and budget I have available... so, "to each their own".
Yadda, yadda, yadda,
Swez
PS Gotta make plans to head up to "Saginasty" this Fall and meet you for a coffee and chat. Hope to do some trout fishing then and would be going right past that zone. We'll see how things work out eh? If you like to fish, we can do that too! I'm game...
Am most familiar with spinning gear to date, but now hooked on fly fishing. Whole new concepts on presentation, delivery and technique... I am a newbie on the fly rod... but putting in as much time as possible to hone those skills. Wanna feel an 8-12 pound Sreelhead or Brown trout on my rigs. Don't have the gear or skills to land a 20+ lb Salmon yet... in time, perhaps?
lessismorespl on 06/26/2005 23:03:33
Don't fish much Swez, but there is a great COFFEE shop right downtown, which is where I live, in fact, I live right above it....they buy fresh cured coffee beans and roast them right in the shop....great smell to wake up to in the morning....and none of the beans are genric....Brazilian, Maya, Ethiopean, etc... very good stuff, I'm into coffee like I am my sound systems.
I agree w/ how it sounds, but when you show someone how it really sounds by standing away from the vehicle, and how easy it is to tune here & there to make it sound good, they are shocked....they will be "how much?" I tell tehm nothing, all I have to do is tune it in, just take a couple minutes, shop owner don't mind too often.
We get 3 or 4 baler installs a month, but not b/c of word of mouth. Many of our customers that come from word of mouth are from the Blue collar budget guys, "hey they did me right, go check them out". The baller guys always want something nobody else has, louder and more flashy than everyobne else, so they are not going to say much to their friends b/c they want to be Mr Slap Happy SPL on the block....amazingly enough, they often say "I want it louder than that guys over there...(pointing at me), and just as clean too....but louder ..... ya know!"
I really do not make many opinions, most of my post come from experience, be it in one of my cars, or some of the cars I have did installs in. Also,THINK I like to keep myself occupied, so I always play w/ stuff, board test amps, take manufacturer rep's sample subs and see how long they last being pushed to xmax @ 20 hz, DMM power wire and RCA's (we get them all the time...big money in installation accessories), I document all my little tests and experiments, like running the fusion 400 wRMS sub @ 300 wRMS free air @ 30 hz for less than 7 minutes, that is how long it lasted....the rep claimed it would change our minds about affordable equipment's quality....and it did....LOL....
less
P.S. I may change my name to "THE MaD INSTALLER".
Victor on 06/27/2005 02:54:45
I have noticed one thing about MAD audiophiles..hehe... al of em' love coffee..
Victor on 06/27/2005 02:56:39
I have noticed one thing about MAD audiophiles..hehe ( me too )... al of em' are as mad and particular for coffee as they are for their music and music systems.
Victor on 06/27/2005 03:17:20
lol... hey guys i am not angry... I just wrote "mad" in caps ...hehe..
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 08:11:14
Coffee is what keeps me going, especially when I'm upgrading my car and have some new ideas..........
And not just any coffee.....has to be fresh, strong, robust, and flavorful!
swez on 06/27/2005 09:52:44
This thread has been very illuminating. It's like new friends getting to know each other on a deeper level. (me likey... hehe)
Tweaking a system is so important and many try to do it from inside the vehicle at 125dB or more. That's just plain nuts. No one can do much at that SPL level and get great results. Learned that one day while working on a night club install.
Had a few minutes to kill before the team showed up, so I opened the doors, trunk and got out my tool pouch. Stood back of the car about 15 feet and just listened to the whole thing as is. Sounded good in the car, but when I was behind it, the mid/highs were a bit off. (too shrill, some minor clipping noted) Tried a few EQ tweaks, adjusted amp gains, trunk closed, trunk open a few inches etc.
After 5 minutes of back and forth, was very pleased with what I was now hearing both inside and outside the car. It was not a dramatic difference, but enough to say... "Hummm, that's more like it"! That was a few years back and that day, I knew this was a good practice to remember.
COFFEE is the jump-juice from heaven. Have tried many kinds and appreciate the robust flavors common to many South American beans. The finer the grind, the more flavor and caffine we get.
Same with a good beer... like the full and robust flavors of European beers and Indian Pale Ales. This, the Germans' seem to have mastered very well. But when they came to America, something changed. Bud, Papst, Coors, Miller... all have a pretty watered down taste. No punch, no zip, not even a great taste. Thank God for the new Micro-brews. Now we can have our cake and eat it too.
Anyway, coffee with Less (THE MAD INSTALLER) sounds like a great way to spend an hour or two chatting about stuff. If ya don't fish, no biggie... I enjoy it enough for two guys. We'll see how things go as Fall approaches.
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 12:45:11
Cool, I'm hoping to have my upgrades done by then, it all depends on my finacial situations over the summer......
I think it is hard to tell the difference, unless it is a completely true audiophile SQ system to tell the difference @ anything over 110 dB's.
As for my comment on an arrogant installer or some-one that thinks they have the "ultimate system"(I personally do not believe that the "ultimate system" exist....it's like saying I have the ultimate computer when we all know tomorrow will bring something new), I worked w/ this guy that thought he was "all that", nobody could tell him anything, he was always right...etc... I took him w/ me and my friend to a MECA comp, I had done the install on his car, he said nothing all the way home, just before we got to the shop, he was like "I have never heard a system sound that good in my life" and "did you see how that guy had his comps installed, they sounded great".....etc....etc....my friends car had taken 4th place in it's class, which made him look at me much different afterwards.....for the next several months it was "what do you think of this?" "How would you do this?".......as I said, some people are way over confident, they have this paranoid illusion that all car audio shops, all car audio manufacturers, etc...are out to put them in the poor farm while getting rich......trust me, when a mkanufacturer states something can do this or is capable of that, there are 100's of installers(like myself) out to prove it fact or fiction. I made $100 bet w/ another installer one time, w/ the Eclipse rep as witness, he said there was not way the 8454 could produce 8 volts across the spectrum b/c no other deck we had tested could, this included top-of-the-line eXcelon, Pioneer Premier, and Alpine......in short, I made $100 that day!
I have no problem calling out something, the JL Audio slash series amps, they boasted these amps could produce their RMS rating at even 10.5 volts.....IMO this had to be proven to me...guess what, the 500/1 putout 500 watts at not only 10.5 volts, but at an even 10 volts also, it came in @ 684 watts @ 13.8 volts.....ok, I was proven wrong, but what about being able to do this different impedances, again, it was all proven by my personal tests and various technical equipment.
When some-one tells me the only difference in a head unit is the name and preout voltage, I can pretty much argue by my own personal tsting of almost every unit on the market.....there are major differences, not only in true preout voltage, but in RMS ratings, CD Player quality, sound reproduction, and other features, such as crossovers and EQ's....my MXE has a 7 band fully programable EQ, how many others decks have that...most are presets, the Eclispe 8454 has a parametric EQ, the eXcelon has a feature which is great for dB Drag, you can actually turn the speaker outputs off and just run the sub out...displays and such are really not important, but I prefer my HU to be able to adjust to the sound I want, not to the sound they think is good.
Enough rants...back to my upgrades.
less
Victor on 06/27/2005 14:57:03
Less ..
you might want to have a look at this..
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE0C18A9-51E9-41F5-8B4F-14B76A2E3744/3576/BremenMP74.pdf
comments...??
Victor on 06/27/2005 15:05:23
oooops..!! thats the product manual.
Here's the express sheet..
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE0C18A9-51E9-41F5-8B4F-14B76A2E3744/4226/BremenMP75.pdf
comments...??
Victor..
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 16:33:18
That is my point Victor, how can some-one say that all head units are the same, other than # of preouts and the preout voltage?
I have found in my experiences that many of the corssovers in HU's are more accurate than the ones they use in most low-end to mid-range amplifiers. There are major differences in HU's, my 8400 has 5V preouts, which produce 5V's over a large spectrum, not just a small fraction of the sound spectrum, it also has excellent Xovers and SQ features, it cost me $319, to find all these features in a Pioneer Premier, Alpine, or eXcelon would cost me $150-250 more......I prefer Eclipse, but I am seriously looking into this unit, have never really been fond of Blaupunkt's product line, but this does seem like a very accurate HU. I will find a dealer close to me and see if I can't do some testing and play w/ one for a few days to see if it is all that it says it is. I'm pretty stuck on the new 9901 MXE, but am also looking at the Eclipse 8454, the price is about the same.
I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, I just know from experience that there is much more to various components of the audio system than manufacturer hype. As w/ power and ground wire, I can prove Streetwires has the least resistance of any other wire on the market, JL Audio is running a close second, and so is Knukonceptz, as for the rest they are all a step behind to these 3 manufacturers. I can also prove there are major differences in amps, Crossfire claims a 1ohm stable amp, I have ran both the VR and the BMF, both would go into protection after being run @ 1ohm, same w/ Hifonics, Kenwood/Kenwood eXcelon, Audiobahn, and several others. Kicker, Diamond Audio, Memphis, and Tru Technologies are the only amps I have used that do not cutout or go into protect @ 1ohm, now I have heard from various dB Drag competitors that the Finnish SPL Dynamic amps can actually handle a 1/2 ohm impedance, and the higher end Braxx can handle the 1ohm, but most amps that claim 1ohm stability cannot carry it for very long.....the new PG Xeon and the new JBL Power Servo amps can also, but I do not have hands on.
This thread is very fun, so much good stuff, it may take me longer to choose my equipment that I first thought.
less
Victor on 06/27/2005 17:37:08
well less.. That HU is surely way ahead of most HU's i have worked till now.. Pioneer premiers, Kenwoods, Alpines... have not had an experience with Clarion, Eclipse or Panasonic and many other brands.. but if its better tehn most alpines and pioneers then it definitely packs a punch..
You should really give a look to it and try it if u get a chance to..
Blau has such a good range now, dunno why they dont do wel in /US..
They are doing fantastically well in the Europe and the indian sub-continent.
Victor..
Here are a few more blau products worth giving a look to..
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/BlaupunktUSA/Products/ReceiversChangers/BestOfClass/Seattle+MP74.htm
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/BlaupunktUSA/Products/ReceiversChangers/BestOfClass/Los+Angeles+MP74.htm
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/0A308197-8A7D-43E1-B53C-83CF5C58C093/3315/ODw_Subwoofers.pdf
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/1204E93F-12F5-49B1-8111-9BD4DA272F22/3311/ODc_components.pdf
http://www.velocity.de/downloads/VELOCITY-E-2004-72-DPI.pdf
( Have a look at the specs of "Burning Desire II monobloc amp )
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/BlaupunktUSA/Products/Video/
Well.. i guess thats enuf to give you the idea how blau's progressing..It has a very different Image tho, not many like the executive looks and simplicity of their products.. they are high priced too..But i gues they are worth every penny
Victor...
swez on 06/27/2005 19:42:16
Totally agree, 100dB is even a tad too much for accurate tuning inside a vehicle. (90-95dB seems best from my personal experiments)
Once we get a few minutes af SPL above 110, the ears begin to attenuate certain frequencies for protection. If we have an RTA, SPL meter and a well calibrated mike, yes... can do it at higher SPL. But our ears tend to overload above 100dB in just a few minutes. So, accurate tuning by ear is practically null & void. (useless)
That Panasonic MXE HU sounds like a wonderful product. What do they cost at a decent discount? Got a detailed link?
Are we having fun yet?
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/27/2005 22:01:24
I'm not sure it is still available, this years model is the 8401, I plan on getting the 9901 for my upgrade:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-8hj4mqzcvWr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=62700&id=features_and_specs&i=133C9901
But I noticed Crutchfield has last years 9700 on special for a very good price, it would save me close to $300:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-8hj4mqzcvWr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=62700&id=features_and_specs&i=133C9700
I'm very impressed w/ Panasonic's MXE line, here is the URL to their website w/ all of this years models:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelList?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&catGroupId=25028&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702
another good point, if you are into video, is that Panasonic video is incredibly clear, even when compared to Eclipse and eXcelon.
less
Victor on 06/27/2005 23:45:50
Weel I have never had an experience with any of panasonic products, but if less says the new MXE line is awesome i gotta believe him..
But if I look at the panasonic website without any influence.. and see this.
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=63071&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702
&surfModel=CJ-HD303&catGroupId=25033&surfCategory=Subwoofers&displayTab=S
the way they have written down the specs for the sub.. I would never trust them.
Its funny when sometimes different companies try to feature their product in absurd way using different terms. I dont say that sub is bad, but after reading that page i would not trust them. They got a funny peak input power spec on all speakers and no rms values..
Large dual dampers - yes.
Maximum power handling low distortion - yes.
Wide rubber edge - yes. ( how much is "wide" .???..lol)
Diaphragm with large center cap - no.
hehehehehe.,,,, are these called specs..lol
And they have done this on each and every driver they make and sell, wether it be components, coaxials or subs.. now that is not what is expected of such a reputed company.
And look what they got to say about the centre dust cap...this is the funniest..lol
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=61876&catGroupId=25033&modelNo=CJ-SW46&cacheProgram
=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702&surfModel=CJ-SW46
"""In addition, the large center caps effectively operate as acoustic high-cut filters, helping to remove spurious mid to high-range frequencies that are beyond the proper range of subwoofer reproduction.""""
Less i am not trying to prove u wrong or something, I trust that the MXE line HU's must be really good, but when looking at the rest of the products i dont see good stuff packed in it..THINK
comments...
Victor..
PS. It could be that like many other brands out there which are known only for certain products, panasonic HU's could be way better than the rest of their products..
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 09:13:27
So what are you trying to say? I'm kind of taking your rather sarcastic comments personal here! I have never said anything about their speakers/subs, only their Source Units, so where did all this come from?
less
Victor on 06/28/2005 09:33:34
You dont need to take it personally less..
Those comments were never aimed at you, I was just commenting on how panasonic as a reputed company still try's to do al the gimmicks which it does not need to.
As i said that I trust you read on their Hu's but the rest of their line does not seem solid.
This is a general thing now how companies try to fool consumers and those were my personal views and my read on such a company. Panasonic is not the only one in the game.. there are many more which take the road to gimmicks.
there are many companies out there which make certain products way up better then the rest and try to promote other products in the good name of a better few.
Please Dont take it personally it was never ever aimed at you.
Hope that clears the mis-understanding.
Victor...
And by the way , dont u think all that panasonic write about their speakers is really funny.
I know we were talking about HU's but i cud not resist but comment on their speakers after having a look at their site.
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 09:59:28
Well I'm not experienced w/ their speakers, I'm very selective in what I decide to run for equipment. I use to run Eclipse or Clarion Pro Audio, but I read about some of MXE features, then began researching thier HU's and was impressed, then when you figure in the cost compared to other units w/ similar features, I was even more impressed. I have never even looked at Panasonic speakers/subs....IMO there are too many great coaxials and components on the market in the same price range to even waste my time looking at Pioneer, Panasonic, or any other mid-grade speakers. I have always been impressed w/ the eXcelon coaxials, IMO they are hard to beat for SQ when compared to other coaxials in the same price range, just as Eclipse Point Source are hard to beat in that price range. When it comes to components, I have used or had experience w/ several companies; a/d/s, CDT, Boston Acoustic, MB Quart, Diamond Audio, JL Audio, Focal, etc....$4$ the CDT's are hard to beat, but I would prefer Focal, it is a price vs quality, CDT has excellent quality as does Focal, but for a better price IMO.
Point taken, but honestly, I would never use Panasonic speakers, I'm pretty set in what I use for my audio systems, even my budget systems are in the upper spectrums of quality.
less
cybersailor420 on 06/28/2005 12:07:55
Hey everyone. I have been reading along with this post, and it really is quite informative. Less has gotten me intriqued by this new Panasonic line. I used to use Panasonic head units, but for the last couple years I have been using the Pioneer Premier head units. I currently have the Pionner Premier 860. Do you think switching from this unit to the Panasonic 9901 would be beneficial? I the things I like about the 860 are the sub control, the 13 band EQ (I like to be able to tune my set as much as possible), and the cross-overs. I know it comes down to personal preference, but I would definitely like to hear your input/comparisons on these models. Thank you.
-Ian-
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 14:49:31
There are pros and cons on both of these units, the 9901 only has a 9 band fully programmable EQ, it does have the lowpass/highpass xovers, and I know the preout voltage is stronger than the 860(I do not care what the specs say, the DMM does not lie). So I guess you would have to figure in cost, the 9901 is $649, not sure what the 860 cost, but I know it probably right around that price. If you are satified w/ the 860, why change it? The 9901 is a great deck, but is it worth the cost to replace. I know the 860 boast 6.5 volt preouts, but they are actually 3.4 across the spectrum, it can putout 6.5 volts, but only under optimal conditions and perfectly set frequencies. All I see you gaining is a more accurate, as well as stronger signal, the 9901 tested 4.6 volts across the spectrum, 5.0 volts optimal. If you are really interested in upgrading to a better deck, and money is not a factor, try the Eclipse 8454, it is probably the best source unit on the market, it runs $699.99, but most shops sell them for around $599.99, you can find them at authorized dealers sometimes for as low as $509.99. If I was not on a strict budget for this install, I would probably go w/ the Eclipse deck, I still may depending on what I decide to do.
less
cybersailor420 on 06/28/2005 17:42:41
Thank you. That is the information I was looking for. I guess I will stick with my head unit for now, I do like it. Although I'm sure you only buy things from authorized dealers, I thought you might be interested in this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18798&item=7526991200&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
The Panasonic 9901 is also for sale on ebay for $419.
-Ian-
swez on 06/28/2005 18:10:44
Panasonic does indeed appear to have several great Premium HU's in thier play book. Not into car video at this time, but will take your word for it that they get that right too.
As for Victor's comments about Panasonic speaker specs... I agree... pretty lame details and would not entice me to look there for speakers either. Same syndrome with Sony, more hype then substance.
However, Kenwood, Alpine, Pioneer and a few other Japanese based products do perform and are well documented for the discriminating consumer. Wonder why these other companies take such a casual or even deceptive marketing approach in such a competitive market? I refuse to look at Sony websites for any substantial details on a given product. It's all bun and no meat. Have a look:
http://www.xplodsony.com/#
Check out the Xplode series specs??? XM-SD46X
Ad Hoc power @ 4 ohms, THD%, 60x4
Ad Hoc power @ 2 ohms, THD%, 75x4
Not to mention the annoying popups and a noxious audio clip too. Gimme a break!
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/28/2005 21:42:55
I agree about the spec sheets Panasonic uses for their speakers, very vague, I never really looked at them before b/c I was never impressed w/ their speaker line, we do carry their speaker line, it always seemed kind of low-end and lacking in quality from what I seen in the shop.
If you made a car audio product like Sony, would you want to show off your specs? LOL
Yes, Alpine, Kenwood, and Pioneer are staples in the car audio industry. Pioneer was the first to manufacture the detachable face plate, Kenwood was the first to use the motrized face, remember the D-Mask units, and Alpine was always known for their quality source units, and now even their amps and subs are of decent quality.....I would take their entry-level Type E's over a long list of other manufacturer's entry level subs.
Well, here are my ALMOST final decisions, along w/ O.T.D. cost and MSRP, and all of which is being purchased from authorized dealers. Comments are welcome, as long as they are intelligent and knowledgable:(my cost/MSRP)
Source Unit: Eclipse 8454 $486/$689.99
Front Stage: CDT Audio CL-641 3-way $340/$489.99
Rear Fill: Focal 165CV 6.5" coaxials $198/$289.99
Mono amp: Diamond Audio D6 1500.1 $468/$599.99
4 ch. amp: Diamond Audio D6 600.4 $425/$499.99
Subwoofers: 2X MTX Audio 9500 1244 $740/$1199.98
I will be building the enclosure out of 1" MDF of which I plan on treating w/ a 1/8" coat of spray-on sound dampening, and the inside corners will all be rounded off and there will be no rough edges w/in the internal volume of the enclosure, everything from the port extension to all conrers will be rounded off. I'm going w/ an internal volume of 4.20 sq ft ^3 and will be using my favorite corner port design tuning it to 32hz.
All my speakers will be set in my homemade baffles and staged w/ a scope for optimal SQ, I'm not glassing my rear deck, however I will be redesigning it w/ some 3/8 MDF and doing my best to match the factory carpet, the rear deck ports will gone, I will be completely coating my rear deck in roll-on sound dampening, the 3/8 MDF will get about 3 coats once it is sized in and sanded down to match the original rear deck covering. I'm going w/ the MDF so I can make new opening for the Focal speakers, I will stage them w/ the scope before I cutout the openings in the MDF. The rear deck is completely sealed w/ sound dampening now, w/ the exception of the port holes which will be covered over w/ sound dampening. I will do a cutout of the center section of my rear seat and make it so I can fold it down, I would do the whole seat, but it will be enough work just doing a small 2' X 2.5' section and making it look good.
I'm going to Streetwires 0/1 ga wire for the entire upfrade, including the Big 3 and I have just talked to the Irragi rep and he is givng me a great deal on a 180 amp alt including the voltage regulator. I will continue to use the Red Top 1000 CA 850 CCA 110 RC battery, I will use the Streetwires Zero Noise 2 RCA's I'm using now, as well as the Streetwires Dist. Block and battery terminals, so accessories will cost me little of nothing, I'm also going to use my Audio Control Epic-150.
I'm saving right about $1K on equipment and this is buying from authorized dealers and I am not using any insider discounts, just buying from 2 shops that I frequent quite often and enjoy doing business with.
I'm using roll-on deadener for the floor boards, doors, and hard to reach areas of the trunk. The bumper cover is being taken off, and I will use silicone and eDead V1 for that, I will line the eDead on the nside of the bumper cover and use the deadener on the actual metal areas of the bumper. The bottom of the trunk will get 3 layers of the roll-on deadener, the doors 2, and floor boards 2, the head liner will recieive 1 coat.
I still figure 20 more hours in calculations and paper work on this install, so I'm probably looking at 2-3 months in my spare time to get it all completed. Any comments are welocme, as are suggestions. The equipment is pretty much a final decision, but anyone is welcome to make suggestions on it also.
less
I'm hitting low 140's now, figuring w/ the well built enclosure, and some serious sound deadening, I should be able to get low to mid 150's, and still have excellent SQ.
swez on 06/29/2005 06:12:12
Man, that's a lot of work, time and cash invested... but if/when you get it the way you want it, will be worth every cent and minute doing same. Nice plan of attack here. Very well detailed, organized and some great gear/prices too. This will be a fun summer project huh?
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/29/2005 07:21:54
Yes, it will probably take me all summer, figure a few hours here and there at the shop, plus what I can do at home on my own, it will be a long road. Also I can't afford to drop all that money at once, so the equipment will be purchased as I get the extra money.....w/ having my new son, he can be rather costly, but he always comes first.
Much of the sound dampening will be done in steps also, go in early and do a coat, so it is dry by the time I leave work, then if nothing is in the way the next day, another coat. As for the cosmetic changes, I'm so detailed in what I do, I know that will take forever, and most likely willnot be happy w/ the first go around and will have to do it again..........
less
swez on 06/29/2005 11:25:33
Sounds familiar... perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. But perfect is not always needed. Sometimes, Less is More.... hehe Could not resist that one either.
The sound dampening phase of this project seems most tedious, but will be one of the best factors down the road. Just make sure we take time to smell the roses as we dive in on long term projects. Every stage can be a minor victory worth celebrating.
I gotta go now, my project is calling and I just want to get it done and get paid as well. Back out to the sweat shop for a few hours of tinkering and tweaking. LOL (You want it when?) Back at this later.
Swez
swez on 06/30/2005 09:15:15
Thanks Victor, for that stretched link. Now, the whole page is off the screen again.
Can you try cropping the link into smaller segments? Sometimes this works, sometimes it won't.
Swez
lessismorespl on 06/30/2005 20:36:11
Thanks for the suggestion Victor, but have used Clarion Pro audio HU's before, DXZ725, DXZ925, and the DXZ845MC. I'm not real fond of thier HU's, not saying they are not quality, just not real fond of the cosmetics, the buttons are usually so small, even a baby would have trouble hitting the right one on the first try, the preout voltage is kind of over-rated, (yes, me and my DMM again!), and on my 725 and my 925 had problems w/ the preouts shorting for no reason, just one day turn on my system and here is that annoying wine even w/ the volume tunred all the way down. I went to the Panasonic MXE after having these 3 units, I had the DXZ845MC before it was really released, around the end of 03, I got it from a friend that goes to this huge electronics show based in Hong Kong, he had knew I was running clarion so he bought it back for me. I ran Kenwood eXcelon beofre that, and Eclipse before that, but the older Eclipse were notorious for skipping @ anything over 135 dB's, they fixed that problem so I've decided to go back to them, if I'm not impressed, I will go back to my Panasonic MXE.
Yeah Swez, I made that mistake once myself, I try not to cut n paste the entire link anymore.....LOL......
swez on 07/1/2005 17:38:35
On some of the longer links, have found it will often work by splitting up the link into short segments. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
Victor, am c/p your previous info so I can delete that message and return to a normal screen on this post.
Victor says: "Less... That eclipse is unquestionably an EXCELLENT HU...you may want to give a look to these too..
http://www.clarion.com/usa/products/source_units/DXZ945MP.html
The only difference i see where the Clarion would lack is the Preamp output.. and where it would get a nich over eclipse is the Dolby Prologic II and the AC processors III...
The clarion is priced at a decent $ 599.99 (MSRP).
Victor..."
Edited by Swez
PS Dropped the .pdf link and screen is back to normal again. I could not crop that link to make it work properly.
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