i was having fun today installing a second amp just to see what it would sound like rather than having it sitting in my garage collecting dust. its an older amp a clarion apx 400.2 which i had replaced with a alpine mrp m350 to power a pair of alpine type e 10" SVC 4 ohm subs. i hooked up one sub to each amp and stood back to see which amp would push harder naturally expecting my newer mono block amp to out power the old clarion. to my surprise the clarion pushed WAY harder than the alpine i had to dial back the gain and the bass boost so that they would be relatively evenly powered. it was about this time that i started to realize that maybe i was changing the wrong settings because the frequency was set considerably higher on the clarion than on the alpine and when i turned up the frequency on the alpine it got louder (though still not as loud as the dialed back clarion to my intense dissapointment)
alrite well back to my question what effect does the frequency setting have on the loudness and sound of the subs? and also how should i be setting the frequency? and my last question is naturally why was the clarion pushing so much harder than my brand new amp?!?!?! to answer the last one i think i might go back to the store i bought it from and make them find that one out but your opions would still be greatly appreciated
Replies (6)
swez on 06/10/2005 20:18:38
Ol Mazda, think a minute about what was just outlined in your post. If you don't have an electronics background, you have just learned a very good lesson on this test.
The amp difference would be about 4 dB (roughly 200 watts less) between the Alpine and your Clarion when bridged. Why? You mentioned one 4 ohm sub per amp right?
OK, the Alpine is rated at ~350 Wrms @ 2 ohms and ~50% of that, into a 4 ohm load. The Clarion when bridged, will deliver close to 400 Wrms @ 4 ohms. Not a very fair test as ya just compared a small peanut with a larger grape! Interesting analogy huh?
About LPF settings, for sub applications, most of us use 80-100 Hz., as our filtering point. Yes, one can go higher and yes, it will be louder as well. The sub becomes more efficient at higher frequencies and so does our hearing. This is normal for a typical sub, but we lose low end definition and some bump as the higher frequencies are notably louder with the same amount of power.
Problem is, even though it is louder at frequencies above say 120 Hz., we are getting into the Midbass range. That messes up the balance between lows, midbasss and midrange.
This would be a good test for the shop/store guys mentioned. If they really know their "electronics stuff", they'll point out the same reason for difference in loudness. If they give you a dog & pony show display, someone is asleep at the wheel over there. hehe
Swez
PS Seems like the Alpine Type S can hold its own at more power than rated. Now you know what it can take and still remain clean and robust. In all, good review on all products noted.
oldmazda on 06/11/2005 01:04:08
this is what is throwing me off though the clarion amp is supposed to have the same amount of current draw as the alpine and to the best of my knowledge it is not a class d mono block amp. the alpine is and i was told that class d is more efficient i expected there to be a greater output from the class d if i gave them the same amount of power. i think i am still going to take it in and see if they can test how much power i'm putting out.
swez on 06/11/2005 10:03:09
Mental block going on here...let's try again. Stuck on Ohm's Law issues.
1. The Alpine develops full power output at 2 ohm loads
2. The Clarion when bridged, gets to full power at 4 ohms
Different design amps here, so they deliver full RMS & Peak power at different load values.
Class D amps are 85-90% efficient and permits 2 ohm loads. The Clarion is a Class A/B amp. This design is 50-60% efficient, but you need a 4 ohm load for best output.
What that means in plain English, is that Class D amps put out rated power, but only draw 10-15% MORE watts at the input side to obtain the rated output power. A Class A/B amp needs more power at the input side (40-55%) MORE watts in, to get the rated output.
Yes, this can be confusing to the average person with little or no electronics background. The $50.00 answer (Math intensive) is not worth writing as it won't really help. It would be like you trying to explain the virtues of jet propulsion VS prop driven aircraft. (assuming you had a good background in same, but I don't have a clue)
In short, trust me on this one. The Alpine is as strong (at 2 ohm loads)as your Clarion is when bridged. (at 4 ohm loads) However, the power consumed and lost as heat is notably different between the 2 amps. However, if we run the Alpine at 4 ohms, we get a 50% reduction in output that this amp can produce at 2 ohms.
Ohm's Law:
Power = Voltage ^2/Resistance or
Watts = Volts ^2/ohms or
P = E^2/R
These basic equations all same the same thing.
Hope this makes sense to you now,
Swez SMILE
gearhead on 06/11/2005 13:34:14
With only 1 sub connected to the Alpine, it's seeing a 4 ohm load which means approx. 175wrms since it's rated power of 350wrms is at 2ohms.
With only 1 sub connected to the Clarion, it's also seeing a 4ohm load, which means approx. 400wrms, because it's rated power is at 4ohms. Is this correct?
swez on 06/11/2005 20:50:11
Go to the head of the class. You have it exactly! (fully bored out to the sleeves and water jackets) And, pick up your free pail of "Perch" on the way out GH.
Swez GRIN
oldmazda on 06/13/2005 14:07:35
i'm not sure that is the output of the clarion it says on the site's that i've checked say specs something like this:
Continuous Average Power Output,
100 W x 2 into 4 ohms 20Hz-20Khz @ 0.05%
2-ohm Stereo 190 W x 2 @ 0.5% THD 1Khz.
Bridged Power 280 W @ 0.5% THD.
now i can't make sense out of all of this but it would seem as though it has an RMS rating of 200W into 3 ohms if i bridged it which i do. that would make it really quite similar to the alpine for RMS wattage and that is why i was expecting about the same output.
alrite well back to my question what effect does the frequency setting have on the loudness and sound of the subs? and also how should i be setting the frequency? and my last question is naturally why was the clarion pushing so much harder than my brand new amp?!?!?! to answer the last one i think i might go back to the store i bought it from and make them find that one out but your opions would still be greatly appreciated
Replies (6)
swez on 06/10/2005 20:18:38
Ol Mazda, think a minute about what was just outlined in your post. If you don't have an electronics background, you have just learned a very good lesson on this test.
The amp difference would be about 4 dB (roughly 200 watts less) between the Alpine and your Clarion when bridged. Why? You mentioned one 4 ohm sub per amp right?
OK, the Alpine is rated at ~350 Wrms @ 2 ohms and ~50% of that, into a 4 ohm load. The Clarion when bridged, will deliver close to 400 Wrms @ 4 ohms. Not a very fair test as ya just compared a small peanut with a larger grape! Interesting analogy huh?
About LPF settings, for sub applications, most of us use 80-100 Hz., as our filtering point. Yes, one can go higher and yes, it will be louder as well. The sub becomes more efficient at higher frequencies and so does our hearing. This is normal for a typical sub, but we lose low end definition and some bump as the higher frequencies are notably louder with the same amount of power.
Problem is, even though it is louder at frequencies above say 120 Hz., we are getting into the Midbass range. That messes up the balance between lows, midbasss and midrange.
This would be a good test for the shop/store guys mentioned. If they really know their "electronics stuff", they'll point out the same reason for difference in loudness. If they give you a dog & pony show display, someone is asleep at the wheel over there. hehe
Swez
PS Seems like the Alpine Type S can hold its own at more power than rated. Now you know what it can take and still remain clean and robust. In all, good review on all products noted.
oldmazda on 06/11/2005 01:04:08
this is what is throwing me off though the clarion amp is supposed to have the same amount of current draw as the alpine and to the best of my knowledge it is not a class d mono block amp. the alpine is and i was told that class d is more efficient i expected there to be a greater output from the class d if i gave them the same amount of power. i think i am still going to take it in and see if they can test how much power i'm putting out.
swez on 06/11/2005 10:03:09
Mental block going on here...let's try again. Stuck on Ohm's Law issues.
1. The Alpine develops full power output at 2 ohm loads
2. The Clarion when bridged, gets to full power at 4 ohms
Different design amps here, so they deliver full RMS & Peak power at different load values.
Class D amps are 85-90% efficient and permits 2 ohm loads. The Clarion is a Class A/B amp. This design is 50-60% efficient, but you need a 4 ohm load for best output.
What that means in plain English, is that Class D amps put out rated power, but only draw 10-15% MORE watts at the input side to obtain the rated output power. A Class A/B amp needs more power at the input side (40-55%) MORE watts in, to get the rated output.
Yes, this can be confusing to the average person with little or no electronics background. The $50.00 answer (Math intensive) is not worth writing as it won't really help. It would be like you trying to explain the virtues of jet propulsion VS prop driven aircraft. (assuming you had a good background in same, but I don't have a clue)
In short, trust me on this one. The Alpine is as strong (at 2 ohm loads)as your Clarion is when bridged. (at 4 ohm loads) However, the power consumed and lost as heat is notably different between the 2 amps. However, if we run the Alpine at 4 ohms, we get a 50% reduction in output that this amp can produce at 2 ohms.
Ohm's Law:
Power = Voltage ^2/Resistance or
Watts = Volts ^2/ohms or
P = E^2/R
These basic equations all same the same thing.
Hope this makes sense to you now,
Swez SMILE
gearhead on 06/11/2005 13:34:14
With only 1 sub connected to the Alpine, it's seeing a 4 ohm load which means approx. 175wrms since it's rated power of 350wrms is at 2ohms.
With only 1 sub connected to the Clarion, it's also seeing a 4ohm load, which means approx. 400wrms, because it's rated power is at 4ohms. Is this correct?
swez on 06/11/2005 20:50:11
Go to the head of the class. You have it exactly! (fully bored out to the sleeves and water jackets) And, pick up your free pail of "Perch" on the way out GH.
Swez GRIN
oldmazda on 06/13/2005 14:07:35
i'm not sure that is the output of the clarion it says on the site's that i've checked say specs something like this:
Continuous Average Power Output,
100 W x 2 into 4 ohms 20Hz-20Khz @ 0.05%
2-ohm Stereo 190 W x 2 @ 0.5% THD 1Khz.
Bridged Power 280 W @ 0.5% THD.
now i can't make sense out of all of this but it would seem as though it has an RMS rating of 200W into 3 ohms if i bridged it which i do. that would make it really quite similar to the alpine for RMS wattage and that is why i was expecting about the same output.
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