Recently some-one I bought a CDT 10" sub from on eBay bought some interesting information to my attention.
A person he knows from another forum purchased 2 JL Audio amps and a pair of Alpine Type R subs from onlinecarstereo.com. When he received the items, the serials had been altered and he could not insure them b/c of the altered serials.
He had called onlinecarstereo and they gave him the run around and were not very helpful.
I'm writing this b/c too many online car audio sites by unauthorized products from shady dealers, distributors, etc.. and resell them. the warranties are not covered by the manufacturer, and more often than not the site will not back the item either. It is something we all need to watchout for when a deal seems too good to be true.
I thought I would share this link to give you all some insight about buying online.
http://www.installer.com/tech/buying.html
I think many of you may find this very interesting, and may make you more aware of where and how you buy your car audio.
The shop I frequent has a regional exclusive w/ JL Audio products. If any JL product is purchase online w/ altered or non-existent serials, all I need is a copy of the invoice, reciept, or packing slip and my manager can get the amp replaced w/ a new serial and full warranty, all you would have to pay is shipping. JL is one of the few manufacturers that place several secret serials in many different places inside of their amps, most only know of 2, the one on the backplate and the one inside the board, but there are 4 more inside the amp and JL can trace the amp to the shady distributor or dealer that is selling the amps to these sites.
If anyone has any questions or has bad experiences w/ onlione sites, it is good to share this w/ others so the next guy is not ripped off. I seldom buy online w/ the exception of Crutchfield and Sound Domain.
Replies (21)
Victor on 05/14/2005 02:48:48
If this is true ( am saying this because i dont buy online ) then all you guys buying online need to really beware of this stuff and share your experiences over here, so that problems if any can be sorted out through the right channel, just like lessismorespl said.
I personally hate these Grey marketters and discourage the use of unauthorised products even if they are cheaper.
Victor...
snipe523 on 05/14/2005 09:06:47
Yeah you definately have to watch out who you buy from online. I will say that I have have ha d a positive experience with with an online store. I have bought a couple things from www.thezeb.com and have had nothing but positive experiences with them. I bought my old Pioneer Premier 850 from them and after about a year the thing stopped working. I called them up and they told me to take it in to my nearest authorized repair center and it would be fixed. I did just that and it was fixed no questions under warranty. And everything I have bought from them has had serial numbers intact.
swez on 05/14/2005 09:30:54
Good heads up there Less!
Many e-tail sites do indicate if they are authorized dealers or not. But, even that can be suspect until confirmed by the mfg.
JL is one of the elite few that do not sell online. Am sure there are very good reasons for this too. However, the prices on JL branded gear are inordinately higher than good, but bargain oriented brands. This probably has a lot to to with managed profits to resellers and JL. To my knowledge, pretty hard to get JL products at decent discounts unless one works for a JL reseller or has connections to same. Otherwise, it's mostly a fixed retail price. (correct me if I am mistaken)
Finally, for those who are willing to pay the price and demand JL quality, an authorized dealer is the only route to go.
Swez
asplundher on 05/14/2005 10:15:12
If any particular individual buys online I would hope that they have enough knowledge to know that a vast majority of major or high-end brands do not allow but so many authorized dealers if any.
However, we must not forget that many (a few here too if not more) have at one time or a another ( and still do) bought items off of other sites (including Ebay) that willfully tell you that they are not authorized internet dealers. Some will instead offer a lesser limited warranty through themselves. Not as good either, but when compared to paying some of the ridiculous prices that are inflated even more than regular at other authorized dealers, I can't really blame anyone for trying.
You should not have to pay out of proportion prices for decent equipment. That is why companies like US Acoustics became popular here. If we are going to preach against finding better prices with "unauthorized dealers", then we should definitely offer some better solutions (authorized dealers that offer far better prices, suggesting more underrated brands that perform, and more reliable sources even if not authorized, etc). Because the bottom line is 'money does matter' and paying too much ain't cool!
ttocs on 05/14/2005 12:16:59
they alter the serial numbers as they are probably legitamate dealers, but they are not allowed to sell them online. There is a possability that they could track the amp by the serial number so they change it to keep that from happening. If alpine were to find out any of this they would probably have alpine ripped from them.
I am aware of these problems but I know a guy that can fix my equipment if it breaks. I am not worried about the warrenty.
lessismorespl on 05/14/2005 14:23:24
In most of my experiences, I have found that authorized dealers will deal w/ you on prices. There are the (what I call) high end snobs that will not deal, but over-all I find that most shops will deal. My W3V2's retail are $249, most retail shops sell them for $199, one of the shops I frequent sold them to me for $170 O.T.D., pretty much the same price as a few online stores that sell unauthorized JL products, same w/ the Diamond Audio amps, I actually paid less from an authorized dealer for them if you figure in shipping costs.
I personally believe it is all a matrter of how you carry yourself when shopping for car audio products. You go in there looking and acting like a baller flashing money around, of course no-one is will ing to deal. You go in a look around, talk to the guys, let them know you know what you want, and what kind of price you are willing to pay, they will deal.
It is a matter of personal preference, and not so much a what you know, but who you know type of thing when it comes to buying car audio. I know the shop I deal w/ will pretty much match most online prices within reason. The 500/1's on onlinecarstereo are $425 I believe, I can get them for $449, to me, $24 more and I get a good solid warranty, to me it is worth the $24. Just remember, most authorized dealers will deal if you have the right attitude.
MrBrownstone on 05/16/2005 15:44:39
The serial numbers are scratched off because the seller knows that he'll be cut off by the manufacturer if they catch him selling on the internet.
ttocs on 05/16/2005 17:37:34
exactly, these are regular dealers normally that backdoor the product. You can get these prices, but it does depend on the place. I work part time at a place in a ritzy side of town. I am always amazed at what they can charge, to only have the customer come in and sign the receipt and take off. They got $1200 for labor alone to install a deck amp and 4 spkrs, but it was in a 911 carerra 4......... A shop like this does not need to worry about the people wanting $100 off an amp, not worth their time. I also worked at shops that had to do deals to survive.
lessismorespl on 05/16/2005 20:30:46
The shop I often buy my equipment at has a mixture of both, they are Kenwoods oldest North American dealer, and have been featured in Mobile Electronics as one of the nations best small car audio chains. They deal w/ the small guy, but also have the higher end customer that does not care about the price.
I do not agree w/ some of the prices of high end equipment, but I also feel the customer should get what he/she pays for, which includes a warranty which in some cases can be up to 5 yrs depending on manufacturer.
If you really look at what some of the online sites charge, it is not that much less after shipping than most shops charge. I can see if people were saving 100's of $'s, but in most cases after shipping that savings are minimal.
I buy on eBay, am a preferred customer @ Crutchfield, and have purchased from other online stores, but nothing more than wiring or other accessories.
The bottom line is this, if a person is going to spend several 100 $'s, he/she should get what the manufacturer intended to give, a good solid no questions asked warranty. When the serieals are altered or removed, any manufacturer warranty is null & void.
MrBrownstone on 05/17/2005 12:16:57
I believe that the only thing you should buy in retail store are the things that aren't saving you any money. Warranty is pointless in mobile electronics unless you are a product abuser, or buy some of the less than desireable brands like Boss, Legacy, etc.
Either way, the purpose of a retail store is installation. If you are schooled in that arena, no point paying unsavory prices for a product you are already willing to buy just to support a greedy store. Of course, if you have no install skills nor the inclination to learn, definitely go to a store where if you screw it up, it's covered.
Excepting DB Drag, i've never blown a speaker, amplifier, or head unit. What did go out on headunits, wasn't covered under warranty anyway.
swez on 05/17/2005 13:36:26
Think about all the "middlemen" in a given transaction too. We have the manufacturing costs and overhead, a distributor with profit and some overhead and then a shop with profit and overhead.
Also, most high end makers have a set price they want to sell the product for. This is an artificial number that rarely can be justified by a savvy buyer. If money is not an issue and the guy wants Brand XYZ, he will pay that price and not think twice.
However, most car audio buyers are in the 16-25 year old bracket. They have small budgets and want big toys. They have a few options:
1. Pay full price and choke up the cash at a retail store
2. Shop for bargains and hope they don't get burned
3. Go to e-bay sellers and take their chances that the product will not fail
Most high end gear is designed and built to last when used as designed. If we abuse the gear once in a while, it will probably take it. However, if we consistantly abuse the gear and use it in ways it was not designed for... that's where most problems stem from.
Sure, we can educate others on proper installs and setting up their gear. But if they do not follow the Mfg's directions or abuse the product, then they are S.O.L. without a warranty plan. Have seen this happen so many times on this and other forums over the years.
In short, take the time to learn how this stuff works. Install it properly and use it within the limits of the product. I have never blown an amp, speakers or other gear in 25 years of dabbling in car, Pro and consumer audio. Guess I am just lucky huh? A little luck yes, more like "Do not abuse the gear I paid good money for". (regardless of where it was purchased)
Swez
PS Buy the good stuff.... it is designed well and can take the day to day use w/o failure. Install it right and use it as designed.... very few field failures this way.
lessismorespl on 05/17/2005 13:57:21
This is all true, but lets face it swez, I was young once too, and w/ the avg. age range, how many do you actually believe will NOT abuse the stuff now & then, if not on a regular basis.
I have been at this since age 16, and almost every shop I have worked in has warranty returns due to this. That is what the warranty is for. As for not knowing how to install, which seems to have been implied earlier, I think I can pretty much hold my own on any type of installation after over 24 years of hands on experience.
I posted this for those that do self install, an online store seldom will back what they sell, w/ the exception of Sound Domain and Crutchfield, and if you really look at the prices, they are not that much of a savings. I paid $235 O.T.D. for my 600.1, it was $219.99 + $19.99 S&H online, the difference is a $5 savings and a 5 year warranty if anything ever messes up.
I get tired of everyone trying to use their own background as advice, not everyone is going to understand clipping, thermal heat, fuse ratings, different wire gauges, ohms law, etc... therefore we must educate them on the grey market, and also give them insight. Advice from "thinking you know everything" is useless as a capacitor, good suggestions, personal experiences, and the personal experiences of others is much better advice.
I do not see where assuming some-one abuses their equipment, or buys low-end, to me, seems like useless advice.
swez on 05/17/2005 18:25:24
Hummmm, would certainly agree that hands on experience is the best teacher. Especially if one has access to another with skilled hands and knows the ropes well.
About abusing equipment, we know that's going to happen. Most of my service calls to night clubs and such are just that.... DJ blows things up left and right because he cannot hear what is going on with the main system, outside his booth area. After a few thousand dollars of fried woofers, mids and horns, had to "dummy proof" the main system with compressors and preset limiters.
Once those were installed and tweaked for best performace, we locked the racks. Now, the DJ can do whatever he wants at his control panel, but the end result is no more fried equipment.
Quote: "I get tired of everyone trying to use their own background as advice, not everyone is going to understand clipping, thermal heat, fuse ratings, different wire gauges, ohms law, etc... therefore we must educate them on the grey market, and also give them insight. Advice from "thinking you know everything" is useless as a capacitor, good suggestions, personal experiences, and the personal experiences of others is much better advice."
Not sure what this comment means? Are you saying.... forget the theory and how things work and just say.... do Steps 1,2,3 etc.?
Comments?
Swez
asplundher on 05/17/2005 19:24:18
WOW! It's getting pretty deep on this one!
I agree with Brownstone. Ask yourselves how much have you used a warranty. If it did break, the majority cause of it was not covered because of the abuse. However, that is not to say "buy all grey market". Just be smart about the deal that your'e getting and know the limitations of what you have.
The majority of us have at one time or another and probably still on occassion push the equipment's limits. The difference is if you have bought something durable; and that's what I stand for, is getting good equipment without paying all the extra. I have gotten a lot of durable brand stuff off Ebay that lasted and bought plenty "less than mediocre" of off retail that lasted as well. My wallet and experiences was/is the controlling factor.
I rarely destroy anything (some speakers on rare occassion (ove-rexcursion), maybe because I was blessed with good ears and can tell very easily when the limits are reached. Yet, the point is regardless of how any individual treats their stuff, don't they still deserve to get a good deal? And if you think a person will not stay within the limitations of the warranty, do they still deserve to pay more when they won't be covered anyway and probably just junk it? The company still got their money and didn't even have to honor it! They will learn over time like we all have. It's the retailers that have lost their way (Greed!). That's the real abuse!
lessismorespl on 05/17/2005 20:48:34
My whole point of this thread was to make people aware of what is going on. I have full coverage insurance on my car, when I report my equipment to the insurance company, they ask for serials numbers, if the serials are altered or etched off, the insurance company will not cover the equipment.
As for warranties, most manufacturers will cover their product even if it is abused. I see it all the time at the shop. You have to remember, this is a competitive business and most reputable manufacturers will back the equipment even if it is abuse, but only if it was purchased from an authorized dealer. I know for a fact MTX Audio & Xtant, JL Audio, Eclipse, Memphis, DEI, and Diamond Audio have never refused a product under warranty even when it was obvious the damage was from abuse of the equipment. Kenwood is kind of selective, but it depends on which retailer you purchased it from, Pioneer is also pretty selective.
Also, as I stated earlier, in most cases you are saving what $20-$30? If $20 is that important to you, then yes, purchase online, but for me, I prefer to have the assurance and security of an authorized product. I'm not a baller and live on a strict budget, but I also feel much more secure in my purchase if I have an authorized warranty....to me that is worth $20-$30.
Swez, I'm not saying forget the theory, but think about how much equipment is sold on a daily basis, and how much of that is self-installed. How many of these shade tree installers understand, or even know what clipping, ohms, voltage, etc... really are or what it means in the car audio environment. For us guys this all pretty basic knowledge, but for the shade tree guy or the newb, they do not have a clue. It is good to learn, but many of these people just want a system and only learn the bare bone basics....enough to get it installed and working.
Everyone talks about greed, well greed is what the grey market is all about. I have researched products on the web and in shops every since I became computer lit and learned how to surf the net. I do not see, w/ the exception of eBay, where there are any huge savings, in most cases once you cover shipping, you are saving $20-$30....to me, that is not a big savings. As for greedy shops, they exist, but I frequent 3 shops in my local area, and they will all deal, even w/ online prices, include the shipping into the total price of a product and go to a shop, in my experiences, most will match it. Remember, the manufacturer has set prices even to dealers and distributors, so the online stores are not getting it any cheaper than your local shop, if yu know how to carry yourself and know how to conduct business on a professional level, most shops will deal, even high-end ones.
Victor on 05/18/2005 03:23:49
many of you must be aware yet, let me just tell you how many stages a product goes through before reaching the end user, atleast back here in India.
Just giving you an example of how the prices of the Polk Sub (Momo Series)MMC2124DVC behave these are approximate prices in Indian Currency (Rupees).
Manufacturer Production Cost - 3270 (approx)
after adding
Transport +insurance + Margin of manufacturer - 3850,
This is almost the price at which the importer buys it.
adding the
Import Duties+custom fees - 5130,
adding the margin of the importer he sells it at - 5895 to the distributors.
now the central sales tax, the insurance and the transport to the distributor will add another 6% to that amount taking the Distributor cost at 6250.
So the price almost doubles at this stage from the original manufacturing cost.
Now the distributor distributes it to all the dealers ... hehe.. lots more to be added now.
adding the Distributor Margin of 15% makes the distributor selling price at 7,190.
Now the dealer has to pay the Local sales tax + octroi charges + transportation + insurance before he gets the products which adds almost another 950 rupees.so that makes the price 8,100 rupees.
Now over that the dealer has his margins of another 15% which makes the final price at which the dealers sell to be 9340 rupees.
heheh aint that funny .. by the time the end user gets the product the prices have almost risen by 3 times the manufacturing cost..
But then if the product is given cheaper to you , the only way cost cutting can be done is to cut off from the middle men, the importers , distributor , dealers, sub-dealers.
I have found internet sales to be cost-effective by cutting down a few stages in the sales cycle. but the only drawback is that since only a single piece or just a few pieces are to be delivered to the buyer the shipping costs really dont give you much chance to cut down on prices.
But if the e-tailer has a godown somewhere near by where you live then it can definitely be a great deal.
Back here in india The grey market rules. Out of every 10 audio equipment you will find 5 grey market units, 2 fakes, 1 like original, and 2 official units.
I was approached by Kenwood for importing their stuff to the western region of India. The first thing I told them was .. hmm.. wait a sec.. lemme copy paste it from the letter i wrote them.
Victor-
"Mr. Mehta has expressed his concerns over the Grey - market related problems and has urged you to put a check over those."
Kenwood-
"we are looking into expanding into the Indian market. but we find that the grey market is very aggressive and as such we are not able find distributors who would want to invest.
as you are aware we cannot control the grey market."
Victor-
"The Indian customer is extremely price conscious and guided into product selection with the pricing of any product. If here we could work out a deal where with the deletion of middle men and over heads we could provide the end consumer with competitive pricing then there is a big market for kenwood products. ( I am considering competition in terms of the Grey Market prices ) because Kenwood of course is at par in quality and pricing with most of the High -end car audio manufacturers. I know the limitations of any company regarding the pricing. I also know that it would be quite impossible to beat the Grey market prices.its worst to face competition from one's own brand.
Kenwood-
"We are aware of the situation but can do nothing against it actively."
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lol.. why would they do...?? they are selling their products with great margins , now if the sell it in the official channel of the unofficial channel it aint gonna make a difference to the manufacturer they are going to get their share.
Most of the companies use such kind of a backdoor entry into the market. Even if its not counted as a legal product in the market the company sure earns its share by the sale of that product.
I dont see a point why a company would stop supplying to the grey channel cause it ultimately would cost them lower sales which they cannot afford. .
Grey market is a deliberate attempt by high investing manufacturers to gain a product entry into the market. Nothing can be done about it rather than just being cautious.
Victor...
asplundher on 05/18/2005 18:26:23
This debate could go on and on....
Think about it like this:
How many of you have bought or at least thought about buying any of these products? How many of you were satisfied with what you had when purchased and likewise vice-versa (wasn't)?. How many times it was/is suggested on this forum to buy something (new/used) off of ebay- now think about a authorized retailer? Compare the numbers if you can. Be Honest!
Thought about it? Well think a little more........
Now. Think about how many of you have downloaded mp3/wma music for free? And don't come up with none of that "I payed for all of mines" stuff, because when it all started it all was free and some still is and you know you did it and probably still do! Now isn't that pretty much the same principle?!!!! If you deny it then pay all those artists that you ripped off.
Look I'm not here to bust someone's bubble, just prove a point. Okay, you want a warranty then pay the extra. If your frugle or just can't afford to pay those kind of prices then know how and where to shop and most importantly take care of your stuff. And one more thing before I quit this thread, some (I didn't say all) of the prices are beat by a decent margin and do make for a better deal!
swez on 05/18/2005 19:22:05
Interesting topic to be sure and we all have our own ideas.
Experience: Worked at a stereo shop as a salesman for a time. The best way for a salesman to make money, was to size up the customers' wallet potential, show him the most profitable items we had to sell and then an extended warrantee plan too. This made the most money for the shop and the salesman. If we installed it, the installers got a nice cut too. That applied to audio, alarms, starters and security packages.
Have always been a Consutant type salesman prior to that. Listen to customers needs, come up with a package that met needs and budget and then support them after the sale as needed, to get the most from the products we offered. That brings lots of new business, referals and the customer has trust in what we offer and how well we stood behind them after the sale. Price was fixed, based on, profit margins volume purchased and Competition prices.
Selling retail gadgets are NOT MY BAG! It's pretty cutthroat out there and many "wheelings and dealing" are possible for the savvy shopper that knows the "real market price" of a given gadget. If we don't shop hard, we pay top dollar. (period)
Needless to say, was much more productive (and felt most effective) in B2B sales opportunities than at a Retail level. These are worlds apart in strategy, approach and building marketshare in a given territory. Will never go back to retail again !!! It felt too much like being in a "pimp/whore" transaction then anything else I have experienced to date.
In short. that's what I like about this forum. We don't sell anything. Just give useful advice, exchange ideas, teach technology and send others out to find the product of their dreams. Yes, I do feel a high degree of responsibilty to offer the best options and advise I am aware of. But once the product is purchased it's in your hands.... the results are pretty much up to the install quality and how the products are used.
Swez
PS More flack coming here too? Hope not.... it is tiresome and not very productive.
asplundher on 05/18/2005 19:25:11
Very well stated!
cplkittle on 05/23/2005 00:46:26
Victor, I have seen this time and time again with companies that "want to protect their authorized dealers by not endorsing or giving any warranty on products sold online" The bottom line is money, and since their price is the same to an authorized dealer as it is to an internet seller, it dosen't matter to them. Especially when internet dealers have a much larger turnover than retail stores.
Diamond Audio is the only company that makes it plain and simple and will not warranty online seller's products. They used to have a link on their website to report online sellers. This is the only company that I know of that takes care of their retail dealers. They, along with several others also have a minimum price that their product must be sold at to recieve any type of warranty.
Now with Diamond's 2005 product line, it is worth that little extra for the lifetime warranty that comes with all of their amplifiers, and the 3 year warranty that comes with their subwoofers (if installed by authorized dealer).
swez on 05/23/2005 10:34:39
This is nothing more than a "CYA" shell game. Mfg's typically do not care who buys the products and what they do with them after the sale. The name of the game for any entity that makes/sells something, is to sell as many units as possible to make a profit.
Sales only to retail outlets "only" is a "less than effective" method to protect the Retailer. These guys usually have to maintain a large dollar inventory to get a franchise for distributing a given product line. Since most retail outlets are "Brick & Mortor", there is a notable overhead attached to doing biz that way.
Overhead... that's inventory costs, labor, leases/rent, insurance and if you have an install bay.... tools, shop supplies and skilled labor fees and additional liability insurance.
To protect these guys, Mfg's will cut a deal with them and give exclusive rights to protected dealership territories. The trick is to have enough traffic and sales margins (overhead + profit) to do biz and make a profit worth their while.
Many E-tailers have very low overhead costs. They can buy from disty's, warehouses and other e-tailers and drop ship products directly to the customer. This lower overhead, allows them to sell at lower costs and better ones will offer an in-house warranty plan. The biggest variable there... what about install quality and how the product is used/abused?
Yes, we all know it is good biz to use a local shop for expensive products and installs. They can deal on price if you are sharp and well armed with competitive pricing info. However, expect to pay a bit more for that "drive in service". Many good shops offer competitive prices and can install the procucts as well. Some have great tools to tweak the system and give you great sound, right out of the bay. The best part about using local shops is just that... they are local! They will offer a mfg's warrantee and extended warrantee plans too. The extended warrantee plan is a real margin booster too. But, that may be a good kind of markup, depending on how the customer uses/abuses his gear.
Swez
A person he knows from another forum purchased 2 JL Audio amps and a pair of Alpine Type R subs from onlinecarstereo.com. When he received the items, the serials had been altered and he could not insure them b/c of the altered serials.
He had called onlinecarstereo and they gave him the run around and were not very helpful.
I'm writing this b/c too many online car audio sites by unauthorized products from shady dealers, distributors, etc.. and resell them. the warranties are not covered by the manufacturer, and more often than not the site will not back the item either. It is something we all need to watchout for when a deal seems too good to be true.
I thought I would share this link to give you all some insight about buying online.
http://www.installer.com/tech/buying.html
I think many of you may find this very interesting, and may make you more aware of where and how you buy your car audio.
The shop I frequent has a regional exclusive w/ JL Audio products. If any JL product is purchase online w/ altered or non-existent serials, all I need is a copy of the invoice, reciept, or packing slip and my manager can get the amp replaced w/ a new serial and full warranty, all you would have to pay is shipping. JL is one of the few manufacturers that place several secret serials in many different places inside of their amps, most only know of 2, the one on the backplate and the one inside the board, but there are 4 more inside the amp and JL can trace the amp to the shady distributor or dealer that is selling the amps to these sites.
If anyone has any questions or has bad experiences w/ onlione sites, it is good to share this w/ others so the next guy is not ripped off. I seldom buy online w/ the exception of Crutchfield and Sound Domain.
Replies (21)
Victor on 05/14/2005 02:48:48
If this is true ( am saying this because i dont buy online ) then all you guys buying online need to really beware of this stuff and share your experiences over here, so that problems if any can be sorted out through the right channel, just like lessismorespl said.
I personally hate these Grey marketters and discourage the use of unauthorised products even if they are cheaper.
Victor...
snipe523 on 05/14/2005 09:06:47
Yeah you definately have to watch out who you buy from online. I will say that I have have ha d a positive experience with with an online store. I have bought a couple things from www.thezeb.com and have had nothing but positive experiences with them. I bought my old Pioneer Premier 850 from them and after about a year the thing stopped working. I called them up and they told me to take it in to my nearest authorized repair center and it would be fixed. I did just that and it was fixed no questions under warranty. And everything I have bought from them has had serial numbers intact.
swez on 05/14/2005 09:30:54
Good heads up there Less!
Many e-tail sites do indicate if they are authorized dealers or not. But, even that can be suspect until confirmed by the mfg.
JL is one of the elite few that do not sell online. Am sure there are very good reasons for this too. However, the prices on JL branded gear are inordinately higher than good, but bargain oriented brands. This probably has a lot to to with managed profits to resellers and JL. To my knowledge, pretty hard to get JL products at decent discounts unless one works for a JL reseller or has connections to same. Otherwise, it's mostly a fixed retail price. (correct me if I am mistaken)
Finally, for those who are willing to pay the price and demand JL quality, an authorized dealer is the only route to go.
Swez
asplundher on 05/14/2005 10:15:12
If any particular individual buys online I would hope that they have enough knowledge to know that a vast majority of major or high-end brands do not allow but so many authorized dealers if any.
However, we must not forget that many (a few here too if not more) have at one time or a another ( and still do) bought items off of other sites (including Ebay) that willfully tell you that they are not authorized internet dealers. Some will instead offer a lesser limited warranty through themselves. Not as good either, but when compared to paying some of the ridiculous prices that are inflated even more than regular at other authorized dealers, I can't really blame anyone for trying.
You should not have to pay out of proportion prices for decent equipment. That is why companies like US Acoustics became popular here. If we are going to preach against finding better prices with "unauthorized dealers", then we should definitely offer some better solutions (authorized dealers that offer far better prices, suggesting more underrated brands that perform, and more reliable sources even if not authorized, etc). Because the bottom line is 'money does matter' and paying too much ain't cool!
ttocs on 05/14/2005 12:16:59
they alter the serial numbers as they are probably legitamate dealers, but they are not allowed to sell them online. There is a possability that they could track the amp by the serial number so they change it to keep that from happening. If alpine were to find out any of this they would probably have alpine ripped from them.
I am aware of these problems but I know a guy that can fix my equipment if it breaks. I am not worried about the warrenty.
lessismorespl on 05/14/2005 14:23:24
In most of my experiences, I have found that authorized dealers will deal w/ you on prices. There are the (what I call) high end snobs that will not deal, but over-all I find that most shops will deal. My W3V2's retail are $249, most retail shops sell them for $199, one of the shops I frequent sold them to me for $170 O.T.D., pretty much the same price as a few online stores that sell unauthorized JL products, same w/ the Diamond Audio amps, I actually paid less from an authorized dealer for them if you figure in shipping costs.
I personally believe it is all a matrter of how you carry yourself when shopping for car audio products. You go in there looking and acting like a baller flashing money around, of course no-one is will ing to deal. You go in a look around, talk to the guys, let them know you know what you want, and what kind of price you are willing to pay, they will deal.
It is a matter of personal preference, and not so much a what you know, but who you know type of thing when it comes to buying car audio. I know the shop I deal w/ will pretty much match most online prices within reason. The 500/1's on onlinecarstereo are $425 I believe, I can get them for $449, to me, $24 more and I get a good solid warranty, to me it is worth the $24. Just remember, most authorized dealers will deal if you have the right attitude.
MrBrownstone on 05/16/2005 15:44:39
The serial numbers are scratched off because the seller knows that he'll be cut off by the manufacturer if they catch him selling on the internet.
ttocs on 05/16/2005 17:37:34
exactly, these are regular dealers normally that backdoor the product. You can get these prices, but it does depend on the place. I work part time at a place in a ritzy side of town. I am always amazed at what they can charge, to only have the customer come in and sign the receipt and take off. They got $1200 for labor alone to install a deck amp and 4 spkrs, but it was in a 911 carerra 4......... A shop like this does not need to worry about the people wanting $100 off an amp, not worth their time. I also worked at shops that had to do deals to survive.
lessismorespl on 05/16/2005 20:30:46
The shop I often buy my equipment at has a mixture of both, they are Kenwoods oldest North American dealer, and have been featured in Mobile Electronics as one of the nations best small car audio chains. They deal w/ the small guy, but also have the higher end customer that does not care about the price.
I do not agree w/ some of the prices of high end equipment, but I also feel the customer should get what he/she pays for, which includes a warranty which in some cases can be up to 5 yrs depending on manufacturer.
If you really look at what some of the online sites charge, it is not that much less after shipping than most shops charge. I can see if people were saving 100's of $'s, but in most cases after shipping that savings are minimal.
I buy on eBay, am a preferred customer @ Crutchfield, and have purchased from other online stores, but nothing more than wiring or other accessories.
The bottom line is this, if a person is going to spend several 100 $'s, he/she should get what the manufacturer intended to give, a good solid no questions asked warranty. When the serieals are altered or removed, any manufacturer warranty is null & void.
MrBrownstone on 05/17/2005 12:16:57
I believe that the only thing you should buy in retail store are the things that aren't saving you any money. Warranty is pointless in mobile electronics unless you are a product abuser, or buy some of the less than desireable brands like Boss, Legacy, etc.
Either way, the purpose of a retail store is installation. If you are schooled in that arena, no point paying unsavory prices for a product you are already willing to buy just to support a greedy store. Of course, if you have no install skills nor the inclination to learn, definitely go to a store where if you screw it up, it's covered.
Excepting DB Drag, i've never blown a speaker, amplifier, or head unit. What did go out on headunits, wasn't covered under warranty anyway.
swez on 05/17/2005 13:36:26
Think about all the "middlemen" in a given transaction too. We have the manufacturing costs and overhead, a distributor with profit and some overhead and then a shop with profit and overhead.
Also, most high end makers have a set price they want to sell the product for. This is an artificial number that rarely can be justified by a savvy buyer. If money is not an issue and the guy wants Brand XYZ, he will pay that price and not think twice.
However, most car audio buyers are in the 16-25 year old bracket. They have small budgets and want big toys. They have a few options:
1. Pay full price and choke up the cash at a retail store
2. Shop for bargains and hope they don't get burned
3. Go to e-bay sellers and take their chances that the product will not fail
Most high end gear is designed and built to last when used as designed. If we abuse the gear once in a while, it will probably take it. However, if we consistantly abuse the gear and use it in ways it was not designed for... that's where most problems stem from.
Sure, we can educate others on proper installs and setting up their gear. But if they do not follow the Mfg's directions or abuse the product, then they are S.O.L. without a warranty plan. Have seen this happen so many times on this and other forums over the years.
In short, take the time to learn how this stuff works. Install it properly and use it within the limits of the product. I have never blown an amp, speakers or other gear in 25 years of dabbling in car, Pro and consumer audio. Guess I am just lucky huh? A little luck yes, more like "Do not abuse the gear I paid good money for". (regardless of where it was purchased)
Swez
PS Buy the good stuff.... it is designed well and can take the day to day use w/o failure. Install it right and use it as designed.... very few field failures this way.
lessismorespl on 05/17/2005 13:57:21
This is all true, but lets face it swez, I was young once too, and w/ the avg. age range, how many do you actually believe will NOT abuse the stuff now & then, if not on a regular basis.
I have been at this since age 16, and almost every shop I have worked in has warranty returns due to this. That is what the warranty is for. As for not knowing how to install, which seems to have been implied earlier, I think I can pretty much hold my own on any type of installation after over 24 years of hands on experience.
I posted this for those that do self install, an online store seldom will back what they sell, w/ the exception of Sound Domain and Crutchfield, and if you really look at the prices, they are not that much of a savings. I paid $235 O.T.D. for my 600.1, it was $219.99 + $19.99 S&H online, the difference is a $5 savings and a 5 year warranty if anything ever messes up.
I get tired of everyone trying to use their own background as advice, not everyone is going to understand clipping, thermal heat, fuse ratings, different wire gauges, ohms law, etc... therefore we must educate them on the grey market, and also give them insight. Advice from "thinking you know everything" is useless as a capacitor, good suggestions, personal experiences, and the personal experiences of others is much better advice.
I do not see where assuming some-one abuses their equipment, or buys low-end, to me, seems like useless advice.
swez on 05/17/2005 18:25:24
Hummmm, would certainly agree that hands on experience is the best teacher. Especially if one has access to another with skilled hands and knows the ropes well.
About abusing equipment, we know that's going to happen. Most of my service calls to night clubs and such are just that.... DJ blows things up left and right because he cannot hear what is going on with the main system, outside his booth area. After a few thousand dollars of fried woofers, mids and horns, had to "dummy proof" the main system with compressors and preset limiters.
Once those were installed and tweaked for best performace, we locked the racks. Now, the DJ can do whatever he wants at his control panel, but the end result is no more fried equipment.
Quote: "I get tired of everyone trying to use their own background as advice, not everyone is going to understand clipping, thermal heat, fuse ratings, different wire gauges, ohms law, etc... therefore we must educate them on the grey market, and also give them insight. Advice from "thinking you know everything" is useless as a capacitor, good suggestions, personal experiences, and the personal experiences of others is much better advice."
Not sure what this comment means? Are you saying.... forget the theory and how things work and just say.... do Steps 1,2,3 etc.?
Comments?
Swez
asplundher on 05/17/2005 19:24:18
WOW! It's getting pretty deep on this one!
I agree with Brownstone. Ask yourselves how much have you used a warranty. If it did break, the majority cause of it was not covered because of the abuse. However, that is not to say "buy all grey market". Just be smart about the deal that your'e getting and know the limitations of what you have.
The majority of us have at one time or another and probably still on occassion push the equipment's limits. The difference is if you have bought something durable; and that's what I stand for, is getting good equipment without paying all the extra. I have gotten a lot of durable brand stuff off Ebay that lasted and bought plenty "less than mediocre" of off retail that lasted as well. My wallet and experiences was/is the controlling factor.
I rarely destroy anything (some speakers on rare occassion (ove-rexcursion), maybe because I was blessed with good ears and can tell very easily when the limits are reached. Yet, the point is regardless of how any individual treats their stuff, don't they still deserve to get a good deal? And if you think a person will not stay within the limitations of the warranty, do they still deserve to pay more when they won't be covered anyway and probably just junk it? The company still got their money and didn't even have to honor it! They will learn over time like we all have. It's the retailers that have lost their way (Greed!). That's the real abuse!
lessismorespl on 05/17/2005 20:48:34
My whole point of this thread was to make people aware of what is going on. I have full coverage insurance on my car, when I report my equipment to the insurance company, they ask for serials numbers, if the serials are altered or etched off, the insurance company will not cover the equipment.
As for warranties, most manufacturers will cover their product even if it is abused. I see it all the time at the shop. You have to remember, this is a competitive business and most reputable manufacturers will back the equipment even if it is abuse, but only if it was purchased from an authorized dealer. I know for a fact MTX Audio & Xtant, JL Audio, Eclipse, Memphis, DEI, and Diamond Audio have never refused a product under warranty even when it was obvious the damage was from abuse of the equipment. Kenwood is kind of selective, but it depends on which retailer you purchased it from, Pioneer is also pretty selective.
Also, as I stated earlier, in most cases you are saving what $20-$30? If $20 is that important to you, then yes, purchase online, but for me, I prefer to have the assurance and security of an authorized product. I'm not a baller and live on a strict budget, but I also feel much more secure in my purchase if I have an authorized warranty....to me that is worth $20-$30.
Swez, I'm not saying forget the theory, but think about how much equipment is sold on a daily basis, and how much of that is self-installed. How many of these shade tree installers understand, or even know what clipping, ohms, voltage, etc... really are or what it means in the car audio environment. For us guys this all pretty basic knowledge, but for the shade tree guy or the newb, they do not have a clue. It is good to learn, but many of these people just want a system and only learn the bare bone basics....enough to get it installed and working.
Everyone talks about greed, well greed is what the grey market is all about. I have researched products on the web and in shops every since I became computer lit and learned how to surf the net. I do not see, w/ the exception of eBay, where there are any huge savings, in most cases once you cover shipping, you are saving $20-$30....to me, that is not a big savings. As for greedy shops, they exist, but I frequent 3 shops in my local area, and they will all deal, even w/ online prices, include the shipping into the total price of a product and go to a shop, in my experiences, most will match it. Remember, the manufacturer has set prices even to dealers and distributors, so the online stores are not getting it any cheaper than your local shop, if yu know how to carry yourself and know how to conduct business on a professional level, most shops will deal, even high-end ones.
Victor on 05/18/2005 03:23:49
many of you must be aware yet, let me just tell you how many stages a product goes through before reaching the end user, atleast back here in India.
Just giving you an example of how the prices of the Polk Sub (Momo Series)MMC2124DVC behave these are approximate prices in Indian Currency (Rupees).
Manufacturer Production Cost - 3270 (approx)
after adding
Transport +insurance + Margin of manufacturer - 3850,
This is almost the price at which the importer buys it.
adding the
Import Duties+custom fees - 5130,
adding the margin of the importer he sells it at - 5895 to the distributors.
now the central sales tax, the insurance and the transport to the distributor will add another 6% to that amount taking the Distributor cost at 6250.
So the price almost doubles at this stage from the original manufacturing cost.
Now the distributor distributes it to all the dealers ... hehe.. lots more to be added now.
adding the Distributor Margin of 15% makes the distributor selling price at 7,190.
Now the dealer has to pay the Local sales tax + octroi charges + transportation + insurance before he gets the products which adds almost another 950 rupees.so that makes the price 8,100 rupees.
Now over that the dealer has his margins of another 15% which makes the final price at which the dealers sell to be 9340 rupees.
heheh aint that funny .. by the time the end user gets the product the prices have almost risen by 3 times the manufacturing cost..
But then if the product is given cheaper to you , the only way cost cutting can be done is to cut off from the middle men, the importers , distributor , dealers, sub-dealers.
I have found internet sales to be cost-effective by cutting down a few stages in the sales cycle. but the only drawback is that since only a single piece or just a few pieces are to be delivered to the buyer the shipping costs really dont give you much chance to cut down on prices.
But if the e-tailer has a godown somewhere near by where you live then it can definitely be a great deal.
Back here in india The grey market rules. Out of every 10 audio equipment you will find 5 grey market units, 2 fakes, 1 like original, and 2 official units.
I was approached by Kenwood for importing their stuff to the western region of India. The first thing I told them was .. hmm.. wait a sec.. lemme copy paste it from the letter i wrote them.
Victor-
"Mr. Mehta has expressed his concerns over the Grey - market related problems and has urged you to put a check over those."
Kenwood-
"we are looking into expanding into the Indian market. but we find that the grey market is very aggressive and as such we are not able find distributors who would want to invest.
as you are aware we cannot control the grey market."
Victor-
"The Indian customer is extremely price conscious and guided into product selection with the pricing of any product. If here we could work out a deal where with the deletion of middle men and over heads we could provide the end consumer with competitive pricing then there is a big market for kenwood products. ( I am considering competition in terms of the Grey Market prices ) because Kenwood of course is at par in quality and pricing with most of the High -end car audio manufacturers. I know the limitations of any company regarding the pricing. I also know that it would be quite impossible to beat the Grey market prices.its worst to face competition from one's own brand.
Kenwood-
"We are aware of the situation but can do nothing against it actively."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol.. why would they do...?? they are selling their products with great margins , now if the sell it in the official channel of the unofficial channel it aint gonna make a difference to the manufacturer they are going to get their share.
Most of the companies use such kind of a backdoor entry into the market. Even if its not counted as a legal product in the market the company sure earns its share by the sale of that product.
I dont see a point why a company would stop supplying to the grey channel cause it ultimately would cost them lower sales which they cannot afford. .
Grey market is a deliberate attempt by high investing manufacturers to gain a product entry into the market. Nothing can be done about it rather than just being cautious.
Victor...
asplundher on 05/18/2005 18:26:23
This debate could go on and on....
Think about it like this:
How many of you have bought or at least thought about buying any of these products? How many of you were satisfied with what you had when purchased and likewise vice-versa (wasn't)?. How many times it was/is suggested on this forum to buy something (new/used) off of ebay- now think about a authorized retailer? Compare the numbers if you can. Be Honest!
Thought about it? Well think a little more........
Now. Think about how many of you have downloaded mp3/wma music for free? And don't come up with none of that "I payed for all of mines" stuff, because when it all started it all was free and some still is and you know you did it and probably still do! Now isn't that pretty much the same principle?!!!! If you deny it then pay all those artists that you ripped off.
Look I'm not here to bust someone's bubble, just prove a point. Okay, you want a warranty then pay the extra. If your frugle or just can't afford to pay those kind of prices then know how and where to shop and most importantly take care of your stuff. And one more thing before I quit this thread, some (I didn't say all) of the prices are beat by a decent margin and do make for a better deal!
swez on 05/18/2005 19:22:05
Interesting topic to be sure and we all have our own ideas.
Experience: Worked at a stereo shop as a salesman for a time. The best way for a salesman to make money, was to size up the customers' wallet potential, show him the most profitable items we had to sell and then an extended warrantee plan too. This made the most money for the shop and the salesman. If we installed it, the installers got a nice cut too. That applied to audio, alarms, starters and security packages.
Have always been a Consutant type salesman prior to that. Listen to customers needs, come up with a package that met needs and budget and then support them after the sale as needed, to get the most from the products we offered. That brings lots of new business, referals and the customer has trust in what we offer and how well we stood behind them after the sale. Price was fixed, based on, profit margins volume purchased and Competition prices.
Selling retail gadgets are NOT MY BAG! It's pretty cutthroat out there and many "wheelings and dealing" are possible for the savvy shopper that knows the "real market price" of a given gadget. If we don't shop hard, we pay top dollar. (period)
Needless to say, was much more productive (and felt most effective) in B2B sales opportunities than at a Retail level. These are worlds apart in strategy, approach and building marketshare in a given territory. Will never go back to retail again !!! It felt too much like being in a "pimp/whore" transaction then anything else I have experienced to date.
In short. that's what I like about this forum. We don't sell anything. Just give useful advice, exchange ideas, teach technology and send others out to find the product of their dreams. Yes, I do feel a high degree of responsibilty to offer the best options and advise I am aware of. But once the product is purchased it's in your hands.... the results are pretty much up to the install quality and how the products are used.
Swez
PS More flack coming here too? Hope not.... it is tiresome and not very productive.
asplundher on 05/18/2005 19:25:11
Very well stated!
cplkittle on 05/23/2005 00:46:26
Victor, I have seen this time and time again with companies that "want to protect their authorized dealers by not endorsing or giving any warranty on products sold online" The bottom line is money, and since their price is the same to an authorized dealer as it is to an internet seller, it dosen't matter to them. Especially when internet dealers have a much larger turnover than retail stores.
Diamond Audio is the only company that makes it plain and simple and will not warranty online seller's products. They used to have a link on their website to report online sellers. This is the only company that I know of that takes care of their retail dealers. They, along with several others also have a minimum price that their product must be sold at to recieve any type of warranty.
Now with Diamond's 2005 product line, it is worth that little extra for the lifetime warranty that comes with all of their amplifiers, and the 3 year warranty that comes with their subwoofers (if installed by authorized dealer).
swez on 05/23/2005 10:34:39
This is nothing more than a "CYA" shell game. Mfg's typically do not care who buys the products and what they do with them after the sale. The name of the game for any entity that makes/sells something, is to sell as many units as possible to make a profit.
Sales only to retail outlets "only" is a "less than effective" method to protect the Retailer. These guys usually have to maintain a large dollar inventory to get a franchise for distributing a given product line. Since most retail outlets are "Brick & Mortor", there is a notable overhead attached to doing biz that way.
Overhead... that's inventory costs, labor, leases/rent, insurance and if you have an install bay.... tools, shop supplies and skilled labor fees and additional liability insurance.
To protect these guys, Mfg's will cut a deal with them and give exclusive rights to protected dealership territories. The trick is to have enough traffic and sales margins (overhead + profit) to do biz and make a profit worth their while.
Many E-tailers have very low overhead costs. They can buy from disty's, warehouses and other e-tailers and drop ship products directly to the customer. This lower overhead, allows them to sell at lower costs and better ones will offer an in-house warranty plan. The biggest variable there... what about install quality and how the product is used/abused?
Yes, we all know it is good biz to use a local shop for expensive products and installs. They can deal on price if you are sharp and well armed with competitive pricing info. However, expect to pay a bit more for that "drive in service". Many good shops offer competitive prices and can install the procucts as well. Some have great tools to tweak the system and give you great sound, right out of the bay. The best part about using local shops is just that... they are local! They will offer a mfg's warrantee and extended warrantee plans too. The extended warrantee plan is a real margin booster too. But, that may be a good kind of markup, depending on how the customer uses/abuses his gear.
Swez
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