well i accidentally posted before i wrote anything. woops, well anyways my question is which amp to go with:
alpine MRPM350: 350W mono block 348 canadian
rockford P3001: 300W mono block 318 canadian
both amps are on sale till the 16th so i would really like a quick response, also as you might remember i had trouble with the unregulated power supply on my other amps would this one have the same issue?
Replies (18)
oldmazda on 05/12/2005 20:06:48
oh one last thing i would be using this amp to push either a pair of type s 10s or just a single 10 i haven't come to a definate conclusion yet.
swez on 05/12/2005 21:58:37
I like the Alpine personally. Has some very good setup features and a voltage/current monitor on it as well. Very well designed and built amp. RF is OK too... but not as well featured as Alpine. Most of the newer Class D amps are regulated power supplies. They can handle voltage sags a bit better than your last amp.
As for 1 sub or 2, if you use 1 sub, shoot for a 12-15", 4+4 DVC setup, depending on the space you have to work with.
If you elect to go with dual 10's, use a pair of 2+2 DVC's. More cone area here to really move bass.
Swez
Tinker18 on 05/13/2005 13:31:58
I have to agree with swez, RF makes some decent stuff, but i hold alpine in higher regard than RF.
oldmazda on 05/13/2005 16:40:54
well i went to future shop today and was poking around to see what all they had and i came across another amp that i might take into consideration:
Pioneer GM-7100-M
i know its probably not as good of an amp as the alpine but its $100 cheaper and claims to have 360 watts rms which seems alrite though i'm not sure whether it would be better to spend the extra cash for the alpine. are there any real issues with buying the pioneer amp that would make quite a bit worse than the alpine?
swez on 05/13/2005 19:50:37
This puppy has 30 x 2 fuses and only puts out 360 Wrms. That leads me to think it is not a Class D Mono Block amp. Very poor efficiency ratings here as compared to the venerable JBL BP300.1, Alpine Class D's or RF Mono blocks. (these all draw under 35A at 300 Wrms)
It claims to be 2 ohms stable, good THD thypical of quality Class A/B amps too. Oddly, it has a usable frequency response between 10-24,000 Hz. That also indicates it's a Class A/B amp.
Bottom line, cheap in price, good power, poor efficiency, high current draw, 2 ohms stable and available in US for ~ $120.00 USD (just under $155.00 CAD?) If your vehicle can take that load (45-50A nominal) then go for it.
One thing I cannot determine, it looks like no RCA inputs for this amp. Only high signal inputs.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PIOGM7100M?ref=nxtg
Swez
oldmazda on 05/14/2005 19:01:38
well i bought the alpine amp today now its onto a question about subs. which would you go with i am debating between a single sub application and a double though i think i will stick with 10" subs. are type s subs really worth all the extra cash when compared to the type e's? i have heard both and the type e's are loud and don't sound all that awefull but i really don't think they sounds $100 candian worse than the type s though i don't know what you guys think.
swez on 05/14/2005 19:41:11
A Single type R 12" (4+4 DVC) will do the job as will a single SWS sub. The R's are rated for 500 Wrms while the S series is rated at 300 Wrms. The main thing to remember.... design your setup with a net 2 ohm load in mind if you use a Class D amp or that Pioneer.
As for amps, have you looked at the MRD-M301 or MRP-M350? Both are rated at 350 Wrms @ 2 ohms. I think there is an older Alpine amp out there as well. The MRD-M300 seems to ring a bell. That amp is rated at 300 Wrms @ 2 ohms, 14.4 volts. May find it a bit cheaper too as it is a few years older.
Hope that helps,
Swez
oldmazda on 05/14/2005 22:21:22
actually swez i just bought the alpine MRP-M350 today and now all that is troubling me is the sub issue. i think i will either get either single type s or 2 type e's and was wondering which you guys thing would be the way to go. the type s is 300 rms and the type e's are 250 or something i think so i hope both will work i just don't think i can afford to buy 2 type s's even a single type r. i already have an enclosure for 2 10" subs that would work for the type e's so that was the choice i was leaning towards though i would still very much appreciate your opinions on this.
thanks.
swez on 05/15/2005 11:13:00
Cost, power and the fact you have a dual 10" box already, the type E Alpine subs make good sense. The SWE-1042 would the version of choice. They are 4 ohm, SVC's, 250 Wrms/sub.
Sealed box volume: 0.6-1.25 cu. ft.
If your present box is in that range, good to go. Seems a good target to shoot for here would be ~0.8 cf internal/sub. That will net a good balance of good punch and adequate deep bass too.
Hope that helps,
Swez
oldmazda on 05/17/2005 13:47:41
yep i think that should about do it i have my box built (i went with ported instead) and i just carpeted it yesterday and for my first time carpeting i think it turned out quite well even if it wasn't perfect.
now this brings me down to my electricals i was reading posts and i am going to have upgrade my wiring under the hood but i couldnt' find a wire that goes from the alt to a ground which i know sounds really dumb but i could only see the power and the sensor cables. also i am not 100% sure what to do with the engine to compartment wire should i'm assuming i should attemt to find a bold on my engine somewhere and run a wire from that point to somewhere on my engine compartment. do i just attatch it to the sheet metal? and does anyone know of a safe place i can attatch my ground to the engine?
swez on 05/17/2005 18:43:38
The ALT is grounded to the block by the mounting bracket(s) and bolts. Most of the time, there is a flat braided wire coming off the rear of the engine block, to a grounding point at the firewall or similar. It's more like a bare braided flat cable then a wire per-se. That's what you are looking for.
If you cannot find it, just use some #4 wire and crimp connectors, large enough for the wire. Bolt one side to the engine block via exsisting bolt and the other end to a bare metal ground on the fire wall or fender well. Keep that wire as short as possible, but allow some slack for flexing as the engine does move when under torque. Should be good to go there.
Also, upgrade the wire off the ATL to BAT to a #4 line. That's you main power line in the system. (12 volt + supply line). The only wire left is the BAT Neg to body ground. That too, should be #4 gage wire.
I think Lessismore has a post on same and a link to an installer site that shows how its done.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801
Swez
oldmazda on 05/19/2005 00:00:38
well swez i can't really find a ground on the engine other than the one that comes from the starter directly to the negative terminal on the battery, would that be the ground i wanna upgrade? and as to the battery to alt wire i was wondering how i would go about changing the attatchment to the alt it seems to have a special kind of connector would i have to buy the same connector only for bigger wire or is there some other way to attach it? also what should i look for in a new battery, do i want more cranking amps or is there any specific things that would make for a better battery to power my system?
swez on 05/19/2005 09:02:09
A BAT upgrade is probably in the cards for later, after you finish the big 3 upgrades. If you live in a warmer climate with mild winters, a deep cycle battery with high CCA ratings (800+) should do the job, of the big 3 is not enough.
Ground to the starter? That seems odd, (but not impossible) . Especially if that ground is pretty short and really is a ground. Normally, most cars have a heavy wire from Pos on BAT to starter and block is grounded via a grounding strap from block to body. There is also a ground from Neg on Bat to a grounding stud with a cluster of wires, attached to that as well. This may vary from one car maker to another too.
As for termination hardware, depends on the style BAT used. Ones with top posts do well with the same hardware shown in that link above. Use one of these on each post for extra termination options.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801
On many Marine style Deep Cycle BATs, they will often have posts for normal clamp mounts and also a separate stud with wing nut for additional power and ground add ons. I bought one at WalMart a few years ago for an electric trolling motor. It had normal top posts and wing nut studs for add ons. It has lasted over 7 years now, but not continous use either.
Optima BAT's offer a dual post design. They have standard top posts for clamp mounting wires and a spare set of side mount studs for GM style connections. If you go with Optima, great BAT... but some careful shopping is needed as these are expensive.
This is a picture of a NAPA brand BAT. It is only 650 CCA, but note the termination hardware options. Standard top posts and wing nut stud posts as well.
http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/search_results_product_detail.d2w/report?prrfnbr=23409399&prmenbr=5806&usrcommgrpid=
Hope that helps,
Swez
oldmazda on 05/19/2005 20:17:01
alrite well i have found a ground that goes from the bottom of the distributer cap to the firewall though it isn't a bare wire i think that it should work though i'm not 100% sure that it will, will i have any dificulties with grounding out the distributer cap?
oldmazda on 05/19/2005 20:23:17
is there supposed to be a fuse between the alt and the battery? it was something that was metioned on an above link that i kind of confused me.
swez on 05/19/2005 21:26:51
If that wire is from the egine block to grounding stud on fire wall, it's a ground you can use. If it were me, I would use the stud on the fire wall, but use a different bolt location for grounding to the block. Make it easy on yourself. Just leave some slack so the ground can move with the engine as it torques.
Fusing the ALT/BAT line, not recommended. If that fuse blows, no load on the ALT and may be very bad for the regulator and internal diodes as well. Could blow the ALT is the load is lost, but power is still being generated from the ALT.
If you have a concern about drawing too much current to damage the ALT/BAT, use a fuse at the BAT to amp(s) only. Start with say an 80A fuse and see how that holds up. If it blows too often, may have to move up to a larger fuse. Always use a fuse between BAT + to power amps. If no fuse is used and the power feed line shorts out... could have a fire.
Swez
oldmazda on 05/24/2005 19:47:51
sorry i took so long responding, i changed out the battery to ground wire but it didn't make any difference so i'm just going to take it to the place i bought it and make then find the problem. i really don't think its the batt or alt because it cut out on me when i was on the highway the other day at 4000 RMPs. but i don't think it really matters he's going to check it over and if it still doesn't work after he does his thing then i think i will just swap out for the rockford and see if that works any better.
swez on 05/25/2005 08:53:15
It might be a very good idea to have the ALT & BAT stress (load) tested to see how well they are performing. If the BAT is new, it should be fine under test. The focus may need to shift to the ALT here.
It seems to me that you hooked up a voltmeter a while back and noticed the amp voltage had dropped as it was being used? Is that correct? If yes, the BAT is trying to run all systems and the ALT cannot keep up.
Symtoms of this:
1. Headlights are noticably dimmer over time
2. Amp output will drop and then shut off
3. Excess distortion from subs may be noted (lack of adequate current/voltage)
4. Dash lights are dim
5. A/C blower motor runs a bit slower
Seems to me, the Alpine M350 has a built in current and voltage monitoring package. It also can give you temperature details as the amp is in operation too. Get out your manual and have a look at the details on how to access these menus. That will at least tell you what the amp sees at its end of the power line.
Swez
alpine MRPM350: 350W mono block 348 canadian
rockford P3001: 300W mono block 318 canadian
both amps are on sale till the 16th so i would really like a quick response, also as you might remember i had trouble with the unregulated power supply on my other amps would this one have the same issue?
Replies (18)
oldmazda on 05/12/2005 20:06:48
oh one last thing i would be using this amp to push either a pair of type s 10s or just a single 10 i haven't come to a definate conclusion yet.
swez on 05/12/2005 21:58:37
I like the Alpine personally. Has some very good setup features and a voltage/current monitor on it as well. Very well designed and built amp. RF is OK too... but not as well featured as Alpine. Most of the newer Class D amps are regulated power supplies. They can handle voltage sags a bit better than your last amp.
As for 1 sub or 2, if you use 1 sub, shoot for a 12-15", 4+4 DVC setup, depending on the space you have to work with.
If you elect to go with dual 10's, use a pair of 2+2 DVC's. More cone area here to really move bass.
Swez
Tinker18 on 05/13/2005 13:31:58
I have to agree with swez, RF makes some decent stuff, but i hold alpine in higher regard than RF.
oldmazda on 05/13/2005 16:40:54
well i went to future shop today and was poking around to see what all they had and i came across another amp that i might take into consideration:
Pioneer GM-7100-M
i know its probably not as good of an amp as the alpine but its $100 cheaper and claims to have 360 watts rms which seems alrite though i'm not sure whether it would be better to spend the extra cash for the alpine. are there any real issues with buying the pioneer amp that would make quite a bit worse than the alpine?
swez on 05/13/2005 19:50:37
This puppy has 30 x 2 fuses and only puts out 360 Wrms. That leads me to think it is not a Class D Mono Block amp. Very poor efficiency ratings here as compared to the venerable JBL BP300.1, Alpine Class D's or RF Mono blocks. (these all draw under 35A at 300 Wrms)
It claims to be 2 ohms stable, good THD thypical of quality Class A/B amps too. Oddly, it has a usable frequency response between 10-24,000 Hz. That also indicates it's a Class A/B amp.
Bottom line, cheap in price, good power, poor efficiency, high current draw, 2 ohms stable and available in US for ~ $120.00 USD (just under $155.00 CAD?) If your vehicle can take that load (45-50A nominal) then go for it.
One thing I cannot determine, it looks like no RCA inputs for this amp. Only high signal inputs.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PIOGM7100M?ref=nxtg
Swez
oldmazda on 05/14/2005 19:01:38
well i bought the alpine amp today now its onto a question about subs. which would you go with i am debating between a single sub application and a double though i think i will stick with 10" subs. are type s subs really worth all the extra cash when compared to the type e's? i have heard both and the type e's are loud and don't sound all that awefull but i really don't think they sounds $100 candian worse than the type s though i don't know what you guys think.
swez on 05/14/2005 19:41:11
A Single type R 12" (4+4 DVC) will do the job as will a single SWS sub. The R's are rated for 500 Wrms while the S series is rated at 300 Wrms. The main thing to remember.... design your setup with a net 2 ohm load in mind if you use a Class D amp or that Pioneer.
As for amps, have you looked at the MRD-M301 or MRP-M350? Both are rated at 350 Wrms @ 2 ohms. I think there is an older Alpine amp out there as well. The MRD-M300 seems to ring a bell. That amp is rated at 300 Wrms @ 2 ohms, 14.4 volts. May find it a bit cheaper too as it is a few years older.
Hope that helps,
Swez
oldmazda on 05/14/2005 22:21:22
actually swez i just bought the alpine MRP-M350 today and now all that is troubling me is the sub issue. i think i will either get either single type s or 2 type e's and was wondering which you guys thing would be the way to go. the type s is 300 rms and the type e's are 250 or something i think so i hope both will work i just don't think i can afford to buy 2 type s's even a single type r. i already have an enclosure for 2 10" subs that would work for the type e's so that was the choice i was leaning towards though i would still very much appreciate your opinions on this.
thanks.
swez on 05/15/2005 11:13:00
Cost, power and the fact you have a dual 10" box already, the type E Alpine subs make good sense. The SWE-1042 would the version of choice. They are 4 ohm, SVC's, 250 Wrms/sub.
Sealed box volume: 0.6-1.25 cu. ft.
If your present box is in that range, good to go. Seems a good target to shoot for here would be ~0.8 cf internal/sub. That will net a good balance of good punch and adequate deep bass too.
Hope that helps,
Swez
oldmazda on 05/17/2005 13:47:41
yep i think that should about do it i have my box built (i went with ported instead) and i just carpeted it yesterday and for my first time carpeting i think it turned out quite well even if it wasn't perfect.
now this brings me down to my electricals i was reading posts and i am going to have upgrade my wiring under the hood but i couldnt' find a wire that goes from the alt to a ground which i know sounds really dumb but i could only see the power and the sensor cables. also i am not 100% sure what to do with the engine to compartment wire should i'm assuming i should attemt to find a bold on my engine somewhere and run a wire from that point to somewhere on my engine compartment. do i just attatch it to the sheet metal? and does anyone know of a safe place i can attatch my ground to the engine?
swez on 05/17/2005 18:43:38
The ALT is grounded to the block by the mounting bracket(s) and bolts. Most of the time, there is a flat braided wire coming off the rear of the engine block, to a grounding point at the firewall or similar. It's more like a bare braided flat cable then a wire per-se. That's what you are looking for.
If you cannot find it, just use some #4 wire and crimp connectors, large enough for the wire. Bolt one side to the engine block via exsisting bolt and the other end to a bare metal ground on the fire wall or fender well. Keep that wire as short as possible, but allow some slack for flexing as the engine does move when under torque. Should be good to go there.
Also, upgrade the wire off the ATL to BAT to a #4 line. That's you main power line in the system. (12 volt + supply line). The only wire left is the BAT Neg to body ground. That too, should be #4 gage wire.
I think Lessismore has a post on same and a link to an installer site that shows how its done.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801
Swez
oldmazda on 05/19/2005 00:00:38
well swez i can't really find a ground on the engine other than the one that comes from the starter directly to the negative terminal on the battery, would that be the ground i wanna upgrade? and as to the battery to alt wire i was wondering how i would go about changing the attatchment to the alt it seems to have a special kind of connector would i have to buy the same connector only for bigger wire or is there some other way to attach it? also what should i look for in a new battery, do i want more cranking amps or is there any specific things that would make for a better battery to power my system?
swez on 05/19/2005 09:02:09
A BAT upgrade is probably in the cards for later, after you finish the big 3 upgrades. If you live in a warmer climate with mild winters, a deep cycle battery with high CCA ratings (800+) should do the job, of the big 3 is not enough.
Ground to the starter? That seems odd, (but not impossible) . Especially if that ground is pretty short and really is a ground. Normally, most cars have a heavy wire from Pos on BAT to starter and block is grounded via a grounding strap from block to body. There is also a ground from Neg on Bat to a grounding stud with a cluster of wires, attached to that as well. This may vary from one car maker to another too.
As for termination hardware, depends on the style BAT used. Ones with top posts do well with the same hardware shown in that link above. Use one of these on each post for extra termination options.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801
On many Marine style Deep Cycle BATs, they will often have posts for normal clamp mounts and also a separate stud with wing nut for additional power and ground add ons. I bought one at WalMart a few years ago for an electric trolling motor. It had normal top posts and wing nut studs for add ons. It has lasted over 7 years now, but not continous use either.
Optima BAT's offer a dual post design. They have standard top posts for clamp mounting wires and a spare set of side mount studs for GM style connections. If you go with Optima, great BAT... but some careful shopping is needed as these are expensive.
This is a picture of a NAPA brand BAT. It is only 650 CCA, but note the termination hardware options. Standard top posts and wing nut stud posts as well.
http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/search_results_product_detail.d2w/report?prrfnbr=23409399&prmenbr=5806&usrcommgrpid=
Hope that helps,
Swez
oldmazda on 05/19/2005 20:17:01
alrite well i have found a ground that goes from the bottom of the distributer cap to the firewall though it isn't a bare wire i think that it should work though i'm not 100% sure that it will, will i have any dificulties with grounding out the distributer cap?
oldmazda on 05/19/2005 20:23:17
is there supposed to be a fuse between the alt and the battery? it was something that was metioned on an above link that i kind of confused me.
swez on 05/19/2005 21:26:51
If that wire is from the egine block to grounding stud on fire wall, it's a ground you can use. If it were me, I would use the stud on the fire wall, but use a different bolt location for grounding to the block. Make it easy on yourself. Just leave some slack so the ground can move with the engine as it torques.
Fusing the ALT/BAT line, not recommended. If that fuse blows, no load on the ALT and may be very bad for the regulator and internal diodes as well. Could blow the ALT is the load is lost, but power is still being generated from the ALT.
If you have a concern about drawing too much current to damage the ALT/BAT, use a fuse at the BAT to amp(s) only. Start with say an 80A fuse and see how that holds up. If it blows too often, may have to move up to a larger fuse. Always use a fuse between BAT + to power amps. If no fuse is used and the power feed line shorts out... could have a fire.
Swez
oldmazda on 05/24/2005 19:47:51
sorry i took so long responding, i changed out the battery to ground wire but it didn't make any difference so i'm just going to take it to the place i bought it and make then find the problem. i really don't think its the batt or alt because it cut out on me when i was on the highway the other day at 4000 RMPs. but i don't think it really matters he's going to check it over and if it still doesn't work after he does his thing then i think i will just swap out for the rockford and see if that works any better.
swez on 05/25/2005 08:53:15
It might be a very good idea to have the ALT & BAT stress (load) tested to see how well they are performing. If the BAT is new, it should be fine under test. The focus may need to shift to the ALT here.
It seems to me that you hooked up a voltmeter a while back and noticed the amp voltage had dropped as it was being used? Is that correct? If yes, the BAT is trying to run all systems and the ALT cannot keep up.
Symtoms of this:
1. Headlights are noticably dimmer over time
2. Amp output will drop and then shut off
3. Excess distortion from subs may be noted (lack of adequate current/voltage)
4. Dash lights are dim
5. A/C blower motor runs a bit slower
Seems to me, the Alpine M350 has a built in current and voltage monitoring package. It also can give you temperature details as the amp is in operation too. Get out your manual and have a look at the details on how to access these menus. That will at least tell you what the amp sees at its end of the power line.
Swez
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