Hi guys,
Have a problem with a 2004, E150 Conversion Van. (15,000 miles) It's loaded with gadgets and gizzmos. The problem seems to be isolated to a no start condition via fob or key. This vehicle has an AUTOPAGE RS-850 LCD alarm w/ remote starter system.
When I turn the key to start position, all gages come up as normal, can hear a starting sequence begin to activate, but the starter will not engage. Same thing happens with the fob.
Have checked all main fuses in vehicle and under the hood as well. Voltage at BAT is normal. All power door locks work, as does alarm system activate/de-activate and all major accessories work too.
The thing I cannot hear, is the starter relay and solinoid system engaging during the start process. Is there a lock out relay in the system I should be looking as a defective device? (anti-theft)
Also, should I be hearing anything from the fuel pump in the process? I do not hear the fuel pump kicking on prior to start. Would that affect the system as noted above?
Thanks for any insights offered,
Swez
PS I also tried disconnecting the neg BAT terminal to reset all ECM/BCM and Alarm circuits to factory presets. This had no observable affects.
Replies (26)
ttocs on 05/1/2005 12:49:01
there should be a starter kill relay somewhere in the dash normally on the end of an orange wire going to the alarm. If you unhook the alarm it should bypass any of the problems the alarm could be causing.
I lost the starter relay a year er so ago on my ford truck. You can tap a screwdriver across the terminals and it may crank. Fuel pump should not be effected by the alarm....
swez on 05/1/2005 12:58:25
Thanks ttocs, appreciate the heads up. Will look for that device and do as mentioned.
I also reviewed the fuel sensor part in the manual. It says the car will crank, but not start of that sensor is triggered by a severe jolt. As you say, it will not affect the starter function of the vehicle. I have details on how to toatally disarm the alarm system as well. Will give that a try too.
This relay you noted, is it a speciaty relay of will a common Bosch relay do the same function?
Thanks a ton,
Swez
ttocs on 05/1/2005 15:25:44
it should be a common relay. There are a few that use a different methode but I would start there. If the fuel pump was not on you are correct that it would crank but never start. Most alarms do not wire into the pump....
Also check grounds. When alarms get a bad ground they start to "seek" ground through other areas. On more then one occasion I have diagnosed bad grounds on alarms because I could hear the siren making weak noise. If it was seeking it though the relay it could activate it.
swez on 05/1/2005 15:49:15
Found the relay mentioned, can hear and feel it activate, but still no start.
Also, I did find the Alarm unit and other gadgets under the lower dash panel. Disconnected all wiring and harness and still no luck. There was an LED function on this system that is now not working. I suspect you may be right about a lost ground, somewhere in the system.
In short, this vehicle has a full warrantee on service plan, so I see no reason to waste my time monkeying about in areas I have no knowledge about. The way this thing was installed by a dealer tech, he did a nice job of soldering wires and using shrink tube. I am cussing him for the lack of wire length to easily remove the system from the lower dash compartment. This is one tight-a$$'d fit and my hands and wrists look like I was in a fight with a gagle of cats. (and lost) LOL
My hat is off to those who have the skill and patience to do these jobs well. Sure would be nice if OEM's would leave some space and ports to tap into all common functions though. (Ya THINK?)
Thanks man, let's some other guy deal with it! I know my limits...
Swez
PS All 4 fuses I located were good as well.
Victor on 05/1/2005 16:35:46
hey dave.. dunno much about security systems.. but i guess PINCH had told me that he is good at security installs.. may be can give some input here..
he has been doing a lot of security installs lately..
Victor...
UKinstaller on 05/1/2005 23:29:12
i don't know if i understand the problem fully, but if you took out the alarm, you will still have to reconnect the starter wire. to wire in the starter kill relay, you have to cut the starter wire in half and wire one wire on the relay towards the key side of the starter wire and one side goes to the motor side.
have you cut out the relay?? make sure to reconnect the starter wire, because if it is cut in half the car will not start.
-UK
ttocs on 05/2/2005 00:10:13
that is not a bad think that he did not leave enough wire to get it out from the dash. If it was done perfectly(not real hard but difficult) you would not have been able to see it or get access to it... Solder and shrink tube from a dealer, I am AMAZED... Most of the time they use T-taps that simply pull off.
I sold an expensive DEI alarm to a lady in a nice land cruiser even though she had a "nice dealer alarm" I popped my head under her dash and pulled the fuse and within 3 seconds came up and put it in her hand and told her it was dead. Security is not the alarm, it is the install. She was amazed he had installed it so it could be so easily bypassed, hopefully it was an honest mistake.....
The ground should be a simple black if you fell like diggin around. But if I had paid I would take it back and enjoy the lounge, rather then the bottom of yer dash... one of the shops had the cheapest security in town and we did ALOT of them. Never had soooo many bach aches, they just never quit.
They could have also been from poor bar stool posture, or from sleeping in a bad position. Those darn desks are never big enough to stretch out properly.... Either my back was killing me, or I would wake up with my arm so badley asleep it hurt to think about writting...
swez on 05/2/2005 10:05:24
I hear that.... my back and neck are very sore from working in such awkward places. They just came to pick up the Van this AM. It's my Stepdad's toy and since he has the full warrantee package, might as well let a Pro handle it.
However, I did learn a few things:
1. If someone else installed it, let them fix it
2. If there is a full warrantee, let someone else fix it
3. If there is no monitary returns (freebees) let some other guy fix it
4. Do lots of homework before diving into security/alarm system de-bugs
5. This job is best done by a very small fella. He needs to be nimble, able to read directions and follow them to the letter and have Chinese hands (real small) to fit in tight spaces.
6. Seems like a Contortunist would be part of the job requirements too
Thanks for the help fellas,
Swez
ttocs on 05/2/2005 14:05:14
You just do not know how right you are on 5 and 6...........
THERE IS NO WORSE TORTURE THEN AN ALARM INSTALL WITH A HANGOVER.......... Unless it is in a miata. I did a buddies mothers onece. I did not have enough space to fit both hands and tools above my head in the dash at the same time. I will never do one of those again. I don't see the reason since if you want it you could just throw the car in the back of yer truck.
I always liked to think of myself as aperty fart smeller.......
swez on 05/2/2005 18:44:49
Well ttocs, I will readily admit where my limitations are and in this case, I found out fast where they are. Being 6'3", 215 lbs and not so nimble anymore, this ain't a job for ol' Swez. Besides, I have contacts with many fart smellers on this board and they all gaved some very good inputs too. It sounds like the Van will be back at home by late Tuesday or Wednesday AM at the latest.
Pops took it to one place and they shook their heads and said.... "Uhmmm, we dunno much about alarms, can't help ya". Then, they towed it to a good friend of his that has done several electrical installs. They know that model well. Lets see how well.
Swez
ttocs on 05/2/2005 22:36:58
let me know what it is, just curious.
You deffinitly do not have a installers frame, or a balarina's..... I am around 5'10", 175.
danielm87 on 05/2/2005 23:02:45
haha i feel your pain Dave!! I'm 6'6" and hovering around 230lbs......
Last month i was installing a system in my friends 'lowrider' Dodge Stealth, when i sat on the rear bumper to mount the amp, the bumper of the car nailed the pavement, incurring an ugly little scrape mark!! He didnt get too mad, but i didnt charge him anything for matching and installing his whole system.
I dont plan on doing any more installs on import tuners. THINK
cplkittle on 05/2/2005 23:37:57
The only problem I have is a sore right knee from knealing for 2-3 hours doing remote starts. They suck sometimes, but the easier cars like ttocs mentioned -hondas are fun too (negative lock triggers). The real pains are the ones that have to be 5 wired, diode isolated door triggers-and locks (FORD), dodge's bright idea to run locks through resistor fed triggers, and all the bypass modules for anti theft systems. And then the wal-mart brand modules that have no internal relays.
sometimes it seems like vehicle engineers are sitting back laughing at how difficult they have made it for installers.
UKinstaller on 05/3/2005 05:21:19
1999 pontiac sunfire - dash doesn't come down, five wire door locks, diode isolated door triggers. the definition of a horrible car to put an alarm/remote start in.
-UK
swez on 05/3/2005 09:27:58
Had no idea how many guys in this clan do Alarm Installs. After reading all the reports and horror stories, sounds like it probably takes a good 2-3 years to really see it all a few times.
Agreed, the design engineers for the BIG 3 must laugh a lot about how well they have managed to engineer the backyard mechanic out of business. Have noted that for years as I have always done my own work to date. It's not getting easier either. These newer cars are very tightly packed, needs a ton of specialty tools or McGiver skills and most just don't have the know how to deal with all the complex electronics.
Hopefully, the Van will be ready today. Frankly, I almost expect a new system will be installed as most guys like to do it their way and not fix someone elses setups. My best guess (based on comments here) the start kill circuit is the main issue. The alarm still workes, as did locks and interlock sensors etc. Will give a full report on the findings when they come in.
Swez
ttocs on 05/3/2005 13:56:05
A good installer has never seen it all. It is always fun in security when the new models come out. There are sooo many stupid little things that can drive you straight up the wall and back down from diagnostic lights staying on to stuff not turning off to false alarms, the list really never stops as each year it gets bigger.
swez on 05/3/2005 19:39:05
Yep, I am getting that picture well. The first stop was a Ford Dealership. They took a few minutes look at it and said... "We'll yank it all out for you for $200.00".
Next step, hauled the Van to another shop which does many alarms and starters and knows this brand. They have had it a whole day and no feedback as of closing time. My guess, they too are stumped.
The saga continues on Wednesday.
Swez
UKinstaller on 05/3/2005 19:42:51
swez, if you want i can tell you how to take it out. it's not hard!! i can tell you how to reconnect the starter wire, too.
-UK
swez on 05/3/2005 20:58:52
OK, we'll see what comes back in the next day of this saga. If the present shop cannot fix it right, may take you up on your proposal.
Pops does not want to remove the system. He has a lot of toys in there to protect and does not wish to disable or remove the alarm system.
The issue as I see it (from noon eyes) all major functions of the alarm system do work. The only key problem is no start. Turn the key and nothing happens. Yes, the gages activate and such, but no trigger to starter seems to be present.
Question, had a blown fuse on drivers side lighting accessories. Had to pull and check all fuses to find the blown one. No start was noted after that. Also, I removed the Neg BAT cable to reset the entire system. That did no good as well.
Does that give you any clues?
Swez
UKinstaller on 05/3/2005 22:29:43
it almost HAS to be something with the starter wire or starter kill relay. perhaps a wire in the relay came undone??
starter kill relays need ignition power, so check that it is getting that as well.
-UK
ttocs on 05/4/2005 09:16:22
it may have nothing to do with the alarm...........
swez on 05/4/2005 20:52:43
More feedback... seems like it was indeed a bad wire as part of the security system. The loose info I did get, is that there was a wiring issue. The tech rewired the system to his way and we should get it the van back on Thursday. I will pump the tech for his inputs as to what he found and how it failed. We'll see?
Swez
Pinch on 05/5/2005 10:24:10
This story reminds me of an episode our shop ran into a month ago. We had installed a remote start in a Chevy Pick'm'up truck (late 90s) and it was working fine for a while. The vehicle came back at some point because it would not start. By came back...I must clarify that I mean it was towed back and literally dumped in our bay. Hehe. We went through all the wires and couldn't find anything. At first we thought it was the tach wire, which the brain of the alarm looks for to tell it to stop cranking. Nope. After checking all the obvious wires (hoodpin, brakeswitch, manual shutdown switch, and the ignition wires) we gave in and called DEI. Their rep said that "off the record" there was a small chance the alarm could have backfed into the starter system. We removed the brain and sent it in. Turns out he was right. The defective brain had left a relay closed or something and actually fried the ignition coil of the vehicle. Of course we had to eat the cost of that coil for the customer on top of giving him a new alarm.
About your particular problem Swez (in case this last tech did not fix the problem). If it would help I can e-mail you a tech sheet page which will list all of the wires colors under your dash (Starter, Ignition, Accessory, +12V, etc) for your particular vehicle.
Pinch
swez on 05/5/2005 20:49:05
Thanks Pinch,
Will keep that one under my hat for the time being.
The initial report my Stepdad got, was that a fuse was mis-intalled while I was checking all fuses in the main panel and under the hood too. I don't see how as I removed one fuse at a time, re-installed each fuse after inspection. These were mostly "MINI FUSES" and they only insert in one way.
Also, the jist of Dad's info to me, was that a fuse was not installed in the proper loacation and fried a wire that affects the start system. Can that be possible as the fuses are there to protect wiring and current flow to each circuit in the system. The fuse values are based on wire ratings and power they must pass.
Am inclined to think this unit had some internal brain malfunctions, tried to seek ALTERNATE grounding sources and this in turn, caused the failure. Admittedly, I am not experienced at alarms, remote starts and all the associated sensors. However, I do know if a circuit looses a ground path and seeks to find another, this can indeed overload the ground wires and other circuits, enough to cause an issue as mentioned.
Will be picking up the van tomorrow and plan to ask the tech some in depth questions on his findings. Any questions I should be focusing in on here?
Swez
Pinch on 05/6/2005 14:39:02
I guess the questions you ask will be based on what your tech did. As in, did he remove the alarm and restore the vehicle to factory condition? Or did he just repair the damaged wire(s) and re-connect the brain? In either case, it would be nice to actually see the wire(s) damaged. Make him show you exactly what caused the vehicle to stop starting in the first place if for no reason than to give youself a better idea of how remote starters work, and what starter kill entails. The easiest way to get ahold of these things is sometimes to break something and then see where things went wrong. You could also have him point out various components of the alarm. Some have separate relay packs which go to starter/igniton/accessory wires in the steering column, some are built into the brain. Some have separate shock sensors, again some are built into the brain. Every component you discover should give you new insight into the frustrating world that is Car Security. Oh, and yes...doing any kind of auto-security install after a late night partying is easily the worst punishment anyone can endure. I would much rather listen to a hockey team skate the alphabet into a giant chalkboard than try to hang upside down in a vehicle trying to diode isolate doorlock wires after a night of martinis. *shudder*
Pinch
swez on 05/8/2005 19:45:59
Turns out it was a fuse link that failed. Took 3 days to find same, but all functions have been restored to original behavior.
Did not have any opportunity to chat with the tech. They were swamped when we got there... so I guess the best part is, the system is working again, I don't have to dink with it anymore and Pops will probably get a rebate from the original installer (FL) after we send them a copy of the billing. It was under extended warrantee.
We shall see! Thanks for all the help guys. Much appreciated!
Swez
Have a problem with a 2004, E150 Conversion Van. (15,000 miles) It's loaded with gadgets and gizzmos. The problem seems to be isolated to a no start condition via fob or key. This vehicle has an AUTOPAGE RS-850 LCD alarm w/ remote starter system.
When I turn the key to start position, all gages come up as normal, can hear a starting sequence begin to activate, but the starter will not engage. Same thing happens with the fob.
Have checked all main fuses in vehicle and under the hood as well. Voltage at BAT is normal. All power door locks work, as does alarm system activate/de-activate and all major accessories work too.
The thing I cannot hear, is the starter relay and solinoid system engaging during the start process. Is there a lock out relay in the system I should be looking as a defective device? (anti-theft)
Also, should I be hearing anything from the fuel pump in the process? I do not hear the fuel pump kicking on prior to start. Would that affect the system as noted above?
Thanks for any insights offered,
Swez
PS I also tried disconnecting the neg BAT terminal to reset all ECM/BCM and Alarm circuits to factory presets. This had no observable affects.
Replies (26)
ttocs on 05/1/2005 12:49:01
there should be a starter kill relay somewhere in the dash normally on the end of an orange wire going to the alarm. If you unhook the alarm it should bypass any of the problems the alarm could be causing.
I lost the starter relay a year er so ago on my ford truck. You can tap a screwdriver across the terminals and it may crank. Fuel pump should not be effected by the alarm....
swez on 05/1/2005 12:58:25
Thanks ttocs, appreciate the heads up. Will look for that device and do as mentioned.
I also reviewed the fuel sensor part in the manual. It says the car will crank, but not start of that sensor is triggered by a severe jolt. As you say, it will not affect the starter function of the vehicle. I have details on how to toatally disarm the alarm system as well. Will give that a try too.
This relay you noted, is it a speciaty relay of will a common Bosch relay do the same function?
Thanks a ton,
Swez
ttocs on 05/1/2005 15:25:44
it should be a common relay. There are a few that use a different methode but I would start there. If the fuel pump was not on you are correct that it would crank but never start. Most alarms do not wire into the pump....
Also check grounds. When alarms get a bad ground they start to "seek" ground through other areas. On more then one occasion I have diagnosed bad grounds on alarms because I could hear the siren making weak noise. If it was seeking it though the relay it could activate it.
swez on 05/1/2005 15:49:15
Found the relay mentioned, can hear and feel it activate, but still no start.
Also, I did find the Alarm unit and other gadgets under the lower dash panel. Disconnected all wiring and harness and still no luck. There was an LED function on this system that is now not working. I suspect you may be right about a lost ground, somewhere in the system.
In short, this vehicle has a full warrantee on service plan, so I see no reason to waste my time monkeying about in areas I have no knowledge about. The way this thing was installed by a dealer tech, he did a nice job of soldering wires and using shrink tube. I am cussing him for the lack of wire length to easily remove the system from the lower dash compartment. This is one tight-a$$'d fit and my hands and wrists look like I was in a fight with a gagle of cats. (and lost) LOL
My hat is off to those who have the skill and patience to do these jobs well. Sure would be nice if OEM's would leave some space and ports to tap into all common functions though. (Ya THINK?)
Thanks man, let's some other guy deal with it! I know my limits...
Swez
PS All 4 fuses I located were good as well.
Victor on 05/1/2005 16:35:46
hey dave.. dunno much about security systems.. but i guess PINCH had told me that he is good at security installs.. may be can give some input here..
he has been doing a lot of security installs lately..
Victor...
UKinstaller on 05/1/2005 23:29:12
i don't know if i understand the problem fully, but if you took out the alarm, you will still have to reconnect the starter wire. to wire in the starter kill relay, you have to cut the starter wire in half and wire one wire on the relay towards the key side of the starter wire and one side goes to the motor side.
have you cut out the relay?? make sure to reconnect the starter wire, because if it is cut in half the car will not start.
-UK
ttocs on 05/2/2005 00:10:13
that is not a bad think that he did not leave enough wire to get it out from the dash. If it was done perfectly(not real hard but difficult) you would not have been able to see it or get access to it... Solder and shrink tube from a dealer, I am AMAZED... Most of the time they use T-taps that simply pull off.
I sold an expensive DEI alarm to a lady in a nice land cruiser even though she had a "nice dealer alarm" I popped my head under her dash and pulled the fuse and within 3 seconds came up and put it in her hand and told her it was dead. Security is not the alarm, it is the install. She was amazed he had installed it so it could be so easily bypassed, hopefully it was an honest mistake.....
The ground should be a simple black if you fell like diggin around. But if I had paid I would take it back and enjoy the lounge, rather then the bottom of yer dash... one of the shops had the cheapest security in town and we did ALOT of them. Never had soooo many bach aches, they just never quit.
They could have also been from poor bar stool posture, or from sleeping in a bad position. Those darn desks are never big enough to stretch out properly.... Either my back was killing me, or I would wake up with my arm so badley asleep it hurt to think about writting...
swez on 05/2/2005 10:05:24
I hear that.... my back and neck are very sore from working in such awkward places. They just came to pick up the Van this AM. It's my Stepdad's toy and since he has the full warrantee package, might as well let a Pro handle it.
However, I did learn a few things:
1. If someone else installed it, let them fix it
2. If there is a full warrantee, let someone else fix it
3. If there is no monitary returns (freebees) let some other guy fix it
4. Do lots of homework before diving into security/alarm system de-bugs
5. This job is best done by a very small fella. He needs to be nimble, able to read directions and follow them to the letter and have Chinese hands (real small) to fit in tight spaces.
6. Seems like a Contortunist would be part of the job requirements too
Thanks for the help fellas,
Swez
ttocs on 05/2/2005 14:05:14
You just do not know how right you are on 5 and 6...........
THERE IS NO WORSE TORTURE THEN AN ALARM INSTALL WITH A HANGOVER.......... Unless it is in a miata. I did a buddies mothers onece. I did not have enough space to fit both hands and tools above my head in the dash at the same time. I will never do one of those again. I don't see the reason since if you want it you could just throw the car in the back of yer truck.
I always liked to think of myself as aperty fart smeller.......
swez on 05/2/2005 18:44:49
Well ttocs, I will readily admit where my limitations are and in this case, I found out fast where they are. Being 6'3", 215 lbs and not so nimble anymore, this ain't a job for ol' Swez. Besides, I have contacts with many fart smellers on this board and they all gaved some very good inputs too. It sounds like the Van will be back at home by late Tuesday or Wednesday AM at the latest.
Pops took it to one place and they shook their heads and said.... "Uhmmm, we dunno much about alarms, can't help ya". Then, they towed it to a good friend of his that has done several electrical installs. They know that model well. Lets see how well.
Swez
ttocs on 05/2/2005 22:36:58
let me know what it is, just curious.
You deffinitly do not have a installers frame, or a balarina's..... I am around 5'10", 175.
danielm87 on 05/2/2005 23:02:45
haha i feel your pain Dave!! I'm 6'6" and hovering around 230lbs......
Last month i was installing a system in my friends 'lowrider' Dodge Stealth, when i sat on the rear bumper to mount the amp, the bumper of the car nailed the pavement, incurring an ugly little scrape mark!! He didnt get too mad, but i didnt charge him anything for matching and installing his whole system.
I dont plan on doing any more installs on import tuners. THINK
cplkittle on 05/2/2005 23:37:57
The only problem I have is a sore right knee from knealing for 2-3 hours doing remote starts. They suck sometimes, but the easier cars like ttocs mentioned -hondas are fun too (negative lock triggers). The real pains are the ones that have to be 5 wired, diode isolated door triggers-and locks (FORD), dodge's bright idea to run locks through resistor fed triggers, and all the bypass modules for anti theft systems. And then the wal-mart brand modules that have no internal relays.
sometimes it seems like vehicle engineers are sitting back laughing at how difficult they have made it for installers.
UKinstaller on 05/3/2005 05:21:19
1999 pontiac sunfire - dash doesn't come down, five wire door locks, diode isolated door triggers. the definition of a horrible car to put an alarm/remote start in.
-UK
swez on 05/3/2005 09:27:58
Had no idea how many guys in this clan do Alarm Installs. After reading all the reports and horror stories, sounds like it probably takes a good 2-3 years to really see it all a few times.
Agreed, the design engineers for the BIG 3 must laugh a lot about how well they have managed to engineer the backyard mechanic out of business. Have noted that for years as I have always done my own work to date. It's not getting easier either. These newer cars are very tightly packed, needs a ton of specialty tools or McGiver skills and most just don't have the know how to deal with all the complex electronics.
Hopefully, the Van will be ready today. Frankly, I almost expect a new system will be installed as most guys like to do it their way and not fix someone elses setups. My best guess (based on comments here) the start kill circuit is the main issue. The alarm still workes, as did locks and interlock sensors etc. Will give a full report on the findings when they come in.
Swez
ttocs on 05/3/2005 13:56:05
A good installer has never seen it all. It is always fun in security when the new models come out. There are sooo many stupid little things that can drive you straight up the wall and back down from diagnostic lights staying on to stuff not turning off to false alarms, the list really never stops as each year it gets bigger.
swez on 05/3/2005 19:39:05
Yep, I am getting that picture well. The first stop was a Ford Dealership. They took a few minutes look at it and said... "We'll yank it all out for you for $200.00".
Next step, hauled the Van to another shop which does many alarms and starters and knows this brand. They have had it a whole day and no feedback as of closing time. My guess, they too are stumped.
The saga continues on Wednesday.
Swez
UKinstaller on 05/3/2005 19:42:51
swez, if you want i can tell you how to take it out. it's not hard!! i can tell you how to reconnect the starter wire, too.
-UK
swez on 05/3/2005 20:58:52
OK, we'll see what comes back in the next day of this saga. If the present shop cannot fix it right, may take you up on your proposal.
Pops does not want to remove the system. He has a lot of toys in there to protect and does not wish to disable or remove the alarm system.
The issue as I see it (from noon eyes) all major functions of the alarm system do work. The only key problem is no start. Turn the key and nothing happens. Yes, the gages activate and such, but no trigger to starter seems to be present.
Question, had a blown fuse on drivers side lighting accessories. Had to pull and check all fuses to find the blown one. No start was noted after that. Also, I removed the Neg BAT cable to reset the entire system. That did no good as well.
Does that give you any clues?
Swez
UKinstaller on 05/3/2005 22:29:43
it almost HAS to be something with the starter wire or starter kill relay. perhaps a wire in the relay came undone??
starter kill relays need ignition power, so check that it is getting that as well.
-UK
ttocs on 05/4/2005 09:16:22
it may have nothing to do with the alarm...........
swez on 05/4/2005 20:52:43
More feedback... seems like it was indeed a bad wire as part of the security system. The loose info I did get, is that there was a wiring issue. The tech rewired the system to his way and we should get it the van back on Thursday. I will pump the tech for his inputs as to what he found and how it failed. We'll see?
Swez
Pinch on 05/5/2005 10:24:10
This story reminds me of an episode our shop ran into a month ago. We had installed a remote start in a Chevy Pick'm'up truck (late 90s) and it was working fine for a while. The vehicle came back at some point because it would not start. By came back...I must clarify that I mean it was towed back and literally dumped in our bay. Hehe. We went through all the wires and couldn't find anything. At first we thought it was the tach wire, which the brain of the alarm looks for to tell it to stop cranking. Nope. After checking all the obvious wires (hoodpin, brakeswitch, manual shutdown switch, and the ignition wires) we gave in and called DEI. Their rep said that "off the record" there was a small chance the alarm could have backfed into the starter system. We removed the brain and sent it in. Turns out he was right. The defective brain had left a relay closed or something and actually fried the ignition coil of the vehicle. Of course we had to eat the cost of that coil for the customer on top of giving him a new alarm.
About your particular problem Swez (in case this last tech did not fix the problem). If it would help I can e-mail you a tech sheet page which will list all of the wires colors under your dash (Starter, Ignition, Accessory, +12V, etc) for your particular vehicle.
Pinch
swez on 05/5/2005 20:49:05
Thanks Pinch,
Will keep that one under my hat for the time being.
The initial report my Stepdad got, was that a fuse was mis-intalled while I was checking all fuses in the main panel and under the hood too. I don't see how as I removed one fuse at a time, re-installed each fuse after inspection. These were mostly "MINI FUSES" and they only insert in one way.
Also, the jist of Dad's info to me, was that a fuse was not installed in the proper loacation and fried a wire that affects the start system. Can that be possible as the fuses are there to protect wiring and current flow to each circuit in the system. The fuse values are based on wire ratings and power they must pass.
Am inclined to think this unit had some internal brain malfunctions, tried to seek ALTERNATE grounding sources and this in turn, caused the failure. Admittedly, I am not experienced at alarms, remote starts and all the associated sensors. However, I do know if a circuit looses a ground path and seeks to find another, this can indeed overload the ground wires and other circuits, enough to cause an issue as mentioned.
Will be picking up the van tomorrow and plan to ask the tech some in depth questions on his findings. Any questions I should be focusing in on here?
Swez
Pinch on 05/6/2005 14:39:02
I guess the questions you ask will be based on what your tech did. As in, did he remove the alarm and restore the vehicle to factory condition? Or did he just repair the damaged wire(s) and re-connect the brain? In either case, it would be nice to actually see the wire(s) damaged. Make him show you exactly what caused the vehicle to stop starting in the first place if for no reason than to give youself a better idea of how remote starters work, and what starter kill entails. The easiest way to get ahold of these things is sometimes to break something and then see where things went wrong. You could also have him point out various components of the alarm. Some have separate relay packs which go to starter/igniton/accessory wires in the steering column, some are built into the brain. Some have separate shock sensors, again some are built into the brain. Every component you discover should give you new insight into the frustrating world that is Car Security. Oh, and yes...doing any kind of auto-security install after a late night partying is easily the worst punishment anyone can endure. I would much rather listen to a hockey team skate the alphabet into a giant chalkboard than try to hang upside down in a vehicle trying to diode isolate doorlock wires after a night of martinis. *shudder*
Pinch
swez on 05/8/2005 19:45:59
Turns out it was a fuse link that failed. Took 3 days to find same, but all functions have been restored to original behavior.
Did not have any opportunity to chat with the tech. They were swamped when we got there... so I guess the best part is, the system is working again, I don't have to dink with it anymore and Pops will probably get a rebate from the original installer (FL) after we send them a copy of the billing. It was under extended warrantee.
We shall see! Thanks for all the help guys. Much appreciated!
Swez
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