Do capacitors really work? What do they do?
Replies (18)
Buickman94 on 04/21/2005 13:49:33
Take a look at this link, should answer all of your questions...
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
MrBrownstone on 04/21/2005 14:14:15
Capacitors:
SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?
1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..
Victor on 04/21/2005 15:23:16
WOW...!! Mr.B ..
I need to copy this and keep it forever.. nothing defines a capacitor better than this.
hehe...lol..
hey.. it does not work as much as it is hyped.. but it does work a bit tho.. a poor yet expensive labourer... hehe..
Victor...
alanjlamore on 04/21/2005 15:39:06
Yea yea yea, I've heard it all before, ;) but how can you argue with results?
Once upon a time, when I had a class D amp that put out 500watts RMS and a 4ch amp that put out 75watts rms per channel to each speaker (rear gain set lower than front) so lets say approx. 750watts RMS total draw from sterio.
My headlights were dimming on every bass note, but the lights were able to come back to full brightness between bass notes (so not too bad).
Not knowing any better way to deal with it, I bought a 1 farad cap, hooked it up and had no dimming at all from the headlights. I understand that the system probably wasn't pulling THAT much more amperage than what the alt could handle, so for the purpose of stopping the lights from dimming, it worked.
Of course I did NOT notice any change in the sound...
So what would be the order of upgrades in electricals?
I've heard if you only need a little more juice, a battery and thicker wires is fine, but tat puts another load on the alt.
I've also heard that the first thing upgraded should be the alt. and wires...
Would upgrading the big 3 alone help with minor current drawing problems?
swez on 04/21/2005 18:58:55
The first 2 steps for light dimming issues would be a larger CCA rated BAT. (Say 800+ CCA over stock which is usally 550-600 CCA)
The second upgrade that is also cheap, larger gage "Big Three" wires.
If there is still notable light dimming on large bass hits, the last resort is a larger ALT. The idle current output is the number to be aware of, as well as full output numbers at ~2500 RPM.
FYI: A Cap can help with minor dimming issues on a sub amp. Figure .5 Farads per 500 Wrms of amp rating is adequate. It will work for minor power shortages... but not for huge light dimming or voltage drop issues.
Swez
lessismorespl on 04/22/2005 06:38:56
Mr B hit it right on the head! People argue results w/ me all the time, and it always comes down to dimming lights. Mr B's comments are funny, but also, in an ironic way very true. Here are some facts about capacitors:
Charges at half the rate it discharges.(Which makes your alt work harder)
Creates more resistance between the battery and your amps, and also draws voltage which could otherwise go to power your amps.
In all honesty, if you want to buy a cap to prevent your head lights from dimming, then connect it to the head lights wiring where it would not discharge near as quick, therefore would not need constant charging.
The exception to the rule is for people that have well built upgraded alt's. This does not include rewinds. In major santioned competitions, you see very few caps, here and there in the lower classes, few in the higher classes. Reason, they do not help!!!! I recently had a cap in my car for looks(the cool digital voltage display and chrome plated cap made the install look kind of cool). I took a DMM and tested my output from the distribution block to the amps, w/out the cap connected I gained .8 volts, which to me is a significant gain(or loss w/ the cap connected), significant enough that I disconnected it and placed it on eBay the same night! A "Big 3 Upgrade" will help dimming light more than even a 5 farad cap will, as will going to a nice deep cycle battery such as: an Optima or Stinger. People can argue caps till their blue n the face w/ me, but I can show real facts thru real tests done w/ my own vehicle, and several others, caps hinder your system more than they help, and creates another stressful thing for the alt to charge. People that actually believe they work I think are experiencing psychoelectronics, similar to psychoacoustics, and in fact one can experience a mixture of both when adding a cap to their system.
montego_27 on 04/22/2005 07:09:56
Psychoelectronics? Psychoacoustics? That is CLASSIC!
alanjlamore on 04/22/2005 08:53:29
I wish I spent the money on something else, installing the cap (then de-installing and re-installing it again) scared the crap out of me.
I was litterally sweating when disconnecting my cap, knowing it was still charged (if you couldn't tell I get a little scared of electricity).
I would put on 2 pairs of gloves and hold the discharging resistor thing with pliers (squeezing so hard that I was stripping the wire).
A friend told me to just discharge the cap with a screwdriver. Anyone ever do this, and would you recomend discharging it this way? I still need to take mine out when I get my amp and upgrade the wires...
Swez, you're saying the first upgrade should be another battery? If I only have "minor" dimming (lights come back to full brightness inbetween bass hits), wouldn't the "Big 3" upgrade be the cheapest?
I'll ask in another post about the order of dissconecting and reconnecting the Big 3 wires.
swez on 04/22/2005 10:24:32
To discharge a Cap safely, can use a resistor or a common automotive tail lamp, connect to jumper wires and a pair of alligator clips. Just disconnect the fuse at BAT main power line to amps, before you discharge it.
NEVER USE A SCREWDRIVER OR OTHER METAL OBJECTS TO DISCHARGE A CAP. They can blow up in your face.
As for upgrades... try the Big 3 wires first and see how that works out for you. If you still find light dimming issues, then go for a larger BAT. The last resort is a H.O. ALT.
Swez
PS I see you are very cautious about electricity. Good to respect it as it can smart if you get zipped. Voltage shocks are annoying but nothing to really hurt you. Current is what is dangerous. A few amps across the arms, can stop your heart. Best to use only 1 hand when dealing with electrical circuits. That way, you don't have a complete pathway through the body to cause harmful shocks.
I have done several outdoor wiring connects between the main pole and meter when upgrading home fuse panels. There are 3 main wires here. One is a ground, the other 2 are 120 volts AC each and almost unlimited current. (300 amperes plus) One false move and fried Swez is likely. I only work one wire at a time. Ground is first, then connect the pair of 120 lines separately. I also wear 2 pair of heavy rubber gloves for added protection. Never had a "bite" either and I don't want one either. This is how pro linemen work too.
MrBrownstone on 04/22/2005 14:31:50
I forgot #7
7. Accidentally crossing a wrench across both terminals resulting in a 225lb man being volleyed in mid air for 3.2 seconds and nearly soiling his fart filter.
If your lights are dimming, and $100 to make them go away works for you, hey man, it's your money. Just remember, that the capacitor is worthless to the audio system because the amp needed the power before the lights dimmed...not after.
Kinda like wearing a condom after she's preggers.....
UKinstaller on 04/23/2005 21:57:05
nice line w/ the condom thing.
-UK
danielm87 on 04/23/2005 22:11:17
Comedy, Truth, and Genius.... all wrapped up into every post that Mr. B makes.
______________________________________________________
Genius, Expertise, and Truth.... all wrapped up into every post that Swez makes.
WAY TO SET THE FACTS STRAIGHT BOYS!
alanjlamore on 04/23/2005 23:04:12
Here here...I've always trusted the advice I've gotten from this site, particularly from Swez.
My first post on this subject was a bit "tounge in cheek" since I bought the cap before I knew about they're lack of performance...
I still have it only because I'm too scared to take it out. LOL.
I'm going to be selling the box I had for the subs I had (just sold the subs for better ones) on ebay and have to discharge the cap to get the cap out.
I have a little cap discharging plate with a resistor and 2 wires. I guess I slide the plastic piece onto the cap and touch the 2 wires together to discharge it slowly (as opposed to using a screwdriver or wrench).
I thought the newer caps were designed to only leak, not blow up, if hooked up wrong or discharged too quick.
Anyway, no need to take chances if I have the cap resistor discharging thing.
I might be wearing a helmet, face sheild, goggles, bullet proof vest, welder's suit and gloves when discharging the cap, but at least I'll know I'll be safe (joking......a little)
danielm87 on 04/23/2005 23:30:43
I was complimenting both of them, no derogation intended, just FYI.
Hehe yeah thats hilarious about the cap. You reserve the right to be scared "excrementally empty" at the thought of sending high amperage volts through your body. Personally, ever since i stuck a hanger in a wall socket at age 8, i've loved a good zapping every now and then, i think it feels exhilirating....... as long as it doesnt stop my heart.
alanjlamore on 04/23/2005 23:58:05
yea, okay. I guess I'm on the opposite end of what I think is exhilirating as you are, since I feel like I might have a heart attack when I get shocked from sliding off of my truck seat and touching the door.
I hate getting static shocks let alone having a 1 farad cap discharge on me.
I once grabbed an electric cow/horse fence to prove to some friends that it was safe (because I did it before when it was off) and got the shock of my life. I couldn't let go for a while of it and it scared the crap out of me (I was around 8-10 yrs old).
I've since had a 72 Pontiac Ventura and while loosening the battery's ground wire, I got an increasingly tingling feeling in my thighs that were touching the bumper of the car (maybe that was the possitive terminal). Ever since I've never trusted electricity again.
swez on 04/24/2005 08:30:44
Wise to be respectful of electricity as it can hurt, sting or even kill.
To discharge a cap safely, or any 12 volt power source, I made up a small, yet simple device. I used a few feet of speaker type wire, 2 alligator clips and a 5711 auto tail lamp as a load. Simply solder one wire to the brass jacket (ground) and the hot lead across both silver nubs at the base of the socket. Then, install your alligator clips to the other end of the wires.
Now, disconnect the NEG BAT terminal. From here it's easy... place one clip on the POS side of the Cap, the other clip on the NEG side of the Cap. Do only one clip at a time and you will not get a shock.
Option #2: Get a 12 volt DC test light and clip the alligator to NEG terminal on Cap. Then, use the probe point on the POS side of the Cap. When the lamp goes out, the Cap is fully discharges and safe to handle.
Swez
PS Thanks for the kuddos fellas. We try our best to give you all the best info we have available. SMILE
MrBrownstone on 04/25/2005 14:53:15
You could discharge it the way I did once. That's how we got #7.
I'm not kidding. Ask Swez.
alanjlamore on 04/25/2005 15:04:59
Yea, that's why I asked. The friend that told me to do that is a good friend and all, but I know that I can't always trust him as he likes to pull a couple of pranks on people.
He told me to discharge the cap with a screwdriver with a compeletly straight face, and said he does it all the time. I'm sure that if I called him on it he would say that he wasn't lieing and that he discharges caps all the time that way (the small x amount of milli farads caps).
I just wish I could discharge it while it's still connected. Like if I disconnect the battery and put a 12V signal into the rem turn on of the amp so it will suck the juice out of the cap. then I could dissconect it with a lot less fear.
I'm sure I'll be fine with the discharging resistor thing since it came with the cap. I only wish I asked about the value of a cap before installing it...(years ago)
Replies (18)
Buickman94 on 04/21/2005 13:49:33
Take a look at this link, should answer all of your questions...
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
MrBrownstone on 04/21/2005 14:14:15
Capacitors:
SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?
1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..
Victor on 04/21/2005 15:23:16
WOW...!! Mr.B ..
I need to copy this and keep it forever.. nothing defines a capacitor better than this.
hehe...lol..
hey.. it does not work as much as it is hyped.. but it does work a bit tho.. a poor yet expensive labourer... hehe..
Victor...
alanjlamore on 04/21/2005 15:39:06
Yea yea yea, I've heard it all before, ;) but how can you argue with results?
Once upon a time, when I had a class D amp that put out 500watts RMS and a 4ch amp that put out 75watts rms per channel to each speaker (rear gain set lower than front) so lets say approx. 750watts RMS total draw from sterio.
My headlights were dimming on every bass note, but the lights were able to come back to full brightness between bass notes (so not too bad).
Not knowing any better way to deal with it, I bought a 1 farad cap, hooked it up and had no dimming at all from the headlights. I understand that the system probably wasn't pulling THAT much more amperage than what the alt could handle, so for the purpose of stopping the lights from dimming, it worked.
Of course I did NOT notice any change in the sound...
So what would be the order of upgrades in electricals?
I've heard if you only need a little more juice, a battery and thicker wires is fine, but tat puts another load on the alt.
I've also heard that the first thing upgraded should be the alt. and wires...
Would upgrading the big 3 alone help with minor current drawing problems?
swez on 04/21/2005 18:58:55
The first 2 steps for light dimming issues would be a larger CCA rated BAT. (Say 800+ CCA over stock which is usally 550-600 CCA)
The second upgrade that is also cheap, larger gage "Big Three" wires.
If there is still notable light dimming on large bass hits, the last resort is a larger ALT. The idle current output is the number to be aware of, as well as full output numbers at ~2500 RPM.
FYI: A Cap can help with minor dimming issues on a sub amp. Figure .5 Farads per 500 Wrms of amp rating is adequate. It will work for minor power shortages... but not for huge light dimming or voltage drop issues.
Swez
lessismorespl on 04/22/2005 06:38:56
Mr B hit it right on the head! People argue results w/ me all the time, and it always comes down to dimming lights. Mr B's comments are funny, but also, in an ironic way very true. Here are some facts about capacitors:
Charges at half the rate it discharges.(Which makes your alt work harder)
Creates more resistance between the battery and your amps, and also draws voltage which could otherwise go to power your amps.
In all honesty, if you want to buy a cap to prevent your head lights from dimming, then connect it to the head lights wiring where it would not discharge near as quick, therefore would not need constant charging.
The exception to the rule is for people that have well built upgraded alt's. This does not include rewinds. In major santioned competitions, you see very few caps, here and there in the lower classes, few in the higher classes. Reason, they do not help!!!! I recently had a cap in my car for looks(the cool digital voltage display and chrome plated cap made the install look kind of cool). I took a DMM and tested my output from the distribution block to the amps, w/out the cap connected I gained .8 volts, which to me is a significant gain(or loss w/ the cap connected), significant enough that I disconnected it and placed it on eBay the same night! A "Big 3 Upgrade" will help dimming light more than even a 5 farad cap will, as will going to a nice deep cycle battery such as: an Optima or Stinger. People can argue caps till their blue n the face w/ me, but I can show real facts thru real tests done w/ my own vehicle, and several others, caps hinder your system more than they help, and creates another stressful thing for the alt to charge. People that actually believe they work I think are experiencing psychoelectronics, similar to psychoacoustics, and in fact one can experience a mixture of both when adding a cap to their system.
montego_27 on 04/22/2005 07:09:56
Psychoelectronics? Psychoacoustics? That is CLASSIC!
alanjlamore on 04/22/2005 08:53:29
I wish I spent the money on something else, installing the cap (then de-installing and re-installing it again) scared the crap out of me.
I was litterally sweating when disconnecting my cap, knowing it was still charged (if you couldn't tell I get a little scared of electricity).
I would put on 2 pairs of gloves and hold the discharging resistor thing with pliers (squeezing so hard that I was stripping the wire).
A friend told me to just discharge the cap with a screwdriver. Anyone ever do this, and would you recomend discharging it this way? I still need to take mine out when I get my amp and upgrade the wires...
Swez, you're saying the first upgrade should be another battery? If I only have "minor" dimming (lights come back to full brightness inbetween bass hits), wouldn't the "Big 3" upgrade be the cheapest?
I'll ask in another post about the order of dissconecting and reconnecting the Big 3 wires.
swez on 04/22/2005 10:24:32
To discharge a Cap safely, can use a resistor or a common automotive tail lamp, connect to jumper wires and a pair of alligator clips. Just disconnect the fuse at BAT main power line to amps, before you discharge it.
NEVER USE A SCREWDRIVER OR OTHER METAL OBJECTS TO DISCHARGE A CAP. They can blow up in your face.
As for upgrades... try the Big 3 wires first and see how that works out for you. If you still find light dimming issues, then go for a larger BAT. The last resort is a H.O. ALT.
Swez
PS I see you are very cautious about electricity. Good to respect it as it can smart if you get zipped. Voltage shocks are annoying but nothing to really hurt you. Current is what is dangerous. A few amps across the arms, can stop your heart. Best to use only 1 hand when dealing with electrical circuits. That way, you don't have a complete pathway through the body to cause harmful shocks.
I have done several outdoor wiring connects between the main pole and meter when upgrading home fuse panels. There are 3 main wires here. One is a ground, the other 2 are 120 volts AC each and almost unlimited current. (300 amperes plus) One false move and fried Swez is likely. I only work one wire at a time. Ground is first, then connect the pair of 120 lines separately. I also wear 2 pair of heavy rubber gloves for added protection. Never had a "bite" either and I don't want one either. This is how pro linemen work too.
MrBrownstone on 04/22/2005 14:31:50
I forgot #7
7. Accidentally crossing a wrench across both terminals resulting in a 225lb man being volleyed in mid air for 3.2 seconds and nearly soiling his fart filter.
If your lights are dimming, and $100 to make them go away works for you, hey man, it's your money. Just remember, that the capacitor is worthless to the audio system because the amp needed the power before the lights dimmed...not after.
Kinda like wearing a condom after she's preggers.....
UKinstaller on 04/23/2005 21:57:05
nice line w/ the condom thing.
-UK
danielm87 on 04/23/2005 22:11:17
Comedy, Truth, and Genius.... all wrapped up into every post that Mr. B makes.
______________________________________________________
Genius, Expertise, and Truth.... all wrapped up into every post that Swez makes.
WAY TO SET THE FACTS STRAIGHT BOYS!
alanjlamore on 04/23/2005 23:04:12
Here here...I've always trusted the advice I've gotten from this site, particularly from Swez.
My first post on this subject was a bit "tounge in cheek" since I bought the cap before I knew about they're lack of performance...
I still have it only because I'm too scared to take it out. LOL.
I'm going to be selling the box I had for the subs I had (just sold the subs for better ones) on ebay and have to discharge the cap to get the cap out.
I have a little cap discharging plate with a resistor and 2 wires. I guess I slide the plastic piece onto the cap and touch the 2 wires together to discharge it slowly (as opposed to using a screwdriver or wrench).
I thought the newer caps were designed to only leak, not blow up, if hooked up wrong or discharged too quick.
Anyway, no need to take chances if I have the cap resistor discharging thing.
I might be wearing a helmet, face sheild, goggles, bullet proof vest, welder's suit and gloves when discharging the cap, but at least I'll know I'll be safe (joking......a little)
danielm87 on 04/23/2005 23:30:43
I was complimenting both of them, no derogation intended, just FYI.
Hehe yeah thats hilarious about the cap. You reserve the right to be scared "excrementally empty" at the thought of sending high amperage volts through your body. Personally, ever since i stuck a hanger in a wall socket at age 8, i've loved a good zapping every now and then, i think it feels exhilirating....... as long as it doesnt stop my heart.
alanjlamore on 04/23/2005 23:58:05
yea, okay. I guess I'm on the opposite end of what I think is exhilirating as you are, since I feel like I might have a heart attack when I get shocked from sliding off of my truck seat and touching the door.
I hate getting static shocks let alone having a 1 farad cap discharge on me.
I once grabbed an electric cow/horse fence to prove to some friends that it was safe (because I did it before when it was off) and got the shock of my life. I couldn't let go for a while of it and it scared the crap out of me (I was around 8-10 yrs old).
I've since had a 72 Pontiac Ventura and while loosening the battery's ground wire, I got an increasingly tingling feeling in my thighs that were touching the bumper of the car (maybe that was the possitive terminal). Ever since I've never trusted electricity again.
swez on 04/24/2005 08:30:44
Wise to be respectful of electricity as it can hurt, sting or even kill.
To discharge a cap safely, or any 12 volt power source, I made up a small, yet simple device. I used a few feet of speaker type wire, 2 alligator clips and a 5711 auto tail lamp as a load. Simply solder one wire to the brass jacket (ground) and the hot lead across both silver nubs at the base of the socket. Then, install your alligator clips to the other end of the wires.
Now, disconnect the NEG BAT terminal. From here it's easy... place one clip on the POS side of the Cap, the other clip on the NEG side of the Cap. Do only one clip at a time and you will not get a shock.
Option #2: Get a 12 volt DC test light and clip the alligator to NEG terminal on Cap. Then, use the probe point on the POS side of the Cap. When the lamp goes out, the Cap is fully discharges and safe to handle.
Swez
PS Thanks for the kuddos fellas. We try our best to give you all the best info we have available. SMILE
MrBrownstone on 04/25/2005 14:53:15
You could discharge it the way I did once. That's how we got #7.
I'm not kidding. Ask Swez.
alanjlamore on 04/25/2005 15:04:59
Yea, that's why I asked. The friend that told me to do that is a good friend and all, but I know that I can't always trust him as he likes to pull a couple of pranks on people.
He told me to discharge the cap with a screwdriver with a compeletly straight face, and said he does it all the time. I'm sure that if I called him on it he would say that he wasn't lieing and that he discharges caps all the time that way (the small x amount of milli farads caps).
I just wish I could discharge it while it's still connected. Like if I disconnect the battery and put a 12V signal into the rem turn on of the amp so it will suck the juice out of the cap. then I could dissconect it with a lot less fear.
I'm sure I'll be fine with the discharging resistor thing since it came with the cap. I only wish I asked about the value of a cap before installing it...(years ago)
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