Hi I just got 2 Solo Baric S15L5 and I have a Audiobahn A2150HCT amp. The speakers are rated at about 600 watts RMS and 1200 Peak. The amp is rated at about 450X2 at 1 OHM even though the amp is rated at 1200 watts. I also have the speakers briged to the amp. There should be absolutely no way for me to blow these speakers correct since these speakers are way more strong then the amp right? Sometimes when i turn the speakers up loud (there is absolutely no distortion) i start to smell this strange smell kinda like rubber i guess. its not a smokey or burning smell. I also noticed i smell this when i turn my computer sub up loud or on my old Audiobahn 12" subs i smelled it also when i turned them up. I'm not sure what the smell is since this amp max could only put out 600X2 and thats not even equal to the subs RMS rating so i don't believe they are overheating, but i could be wrong...Could someone help me out please?
Replies (27)
alanjlamore on 04/18/2005 16:44:40
If the amp is being worked too hard it could be the smell of the internal capacitors frying.
They give off a weird smell, and when I was powering my amp at or above it's max (bridged with the gain set possibly too high) I smelled a weird smell.
Eventually one of the 2 channels that I had bridged blew. I think I had the gain set too high.
swez on 04/18/2005 16:50:25
Voice coils could be getting a mite warm and if new, they may smell a bit for a time. Best thing to do is go back where the subs live and do a sniff test to isolate the smell. Sounds like epoxy coating that hold coils to bobbin and speaker may be burn off residue.
Also, check your amp temp as well. It may be getting a tad hot and depending on where it is mounted, may get some smells there too.
What gage power wire are you using here? (#4 should be minimum wire gage... #2 would be better. Inspect your power line for heat as well.
Swez
PS Is this a sealed sub unit or ported? If Ported, are you using a Subsonic filter? Should be... to protect your subs.
Beau640 on 04/18/2005 17:12:45
Yes my box is ported and has the sub sonic filter built into the amp. I dont think its the amp i smelled it and thats not where it seemed to be coming from. (my computer sub doesnt have an amp either and it still makes that smell, although i dont notice it much anymoer since its older now). The subs havent had 20 hours of playtime yet either, probably about 10 max. It might just be becasue they are new, although my old Audiobahn subs made that smell too when they were old. The amp's gain is set at max becasue there still is no distortion ever, so i never turned it down. I've had the amp for almost a year and i alwasy turn it up loud, nothing has blown on the amp. This audiobahn amp has a heat protecter too, so if it gets too hot it will shut itself off (which has never happneed yet). Also it has 2 fans on the front. It's mounted in a wide open spot also. I'm confused to what this smell is
Beau640 on 04/18/2005 17:16:31
Ok i just went and smelled it. Its 100% not coming from the amp. Its coming out of the ported holes. The air coming from the holes is also very cool however so i don't think the voice coils are having trouble distributing the heat...And its not a burning smell...So maybe it is just cause they are new?
Beau640 on 04/18/2005 17:53:32
I am using a 4 gauge wire too (sorry i forget to put that in the last post :P) but the smell is defenately not coming from the amp.
ttocs on 04/18/2005 18:20:56
I will 1rst warn you that you could blow those speakers with that amp, with any amp..... You can blow a speaker with too little pwr just as easy, if not easier then you could with too much. Having an amp that has a max pwr less then the peak of the subs does not mean you are safe.
Being that the speakers are new, I would guess that your "break in" phase might be a little rough on them. Understand that a speaker is a moving piece of equipment and needs time to start working properly and make sure everything is in line correctly. Just like you are supposed to take it easy for the first few thousand miles on a car, you are supposed to take it easy for the 1rst 10-20 hrs on the sub. Pluggin it in and crankin it up is the worst thing you could do to it, with a few exceptions that Mr B has probably already done....
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 08:05:39
Yea i know your supposed to take it easy on them...even though i haven't been that easy on them i don't think thats contributing to the smell only because my old speakers which had probably about 50 hours of playtime made that smell too. My old speakers were in a dual bandpass box and the smell came right out of the holes on the sides...if you stuck your nose right up to the holes it was very concentrated there. On these new speakers in the ported box the smell is not nearly as strong and smells a little more like rubber, but still is coming right out of the holes. And for the "break in" time its 10-20 hours of playtime not 10-20 hours of installation correct?
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 08:11:06
sorry for the double post
ttocs on 04/19/2005 11:54:21
no prob, fixed by the pwr of the dangly medal.....
10-20 hrs of installation? It should not take that long to install the subs, but that would not help the break-in...
MrBrownstone on 04/19/2005 14:47:19
Here's a little schpiel on blowing speakers, etc.
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=2.topic
In a nutshell, amplifiers can put out 2.5X the amount of rated RMS power @ 100% distortion (THD). It's not uncommon for a 200Wx2 amp to put out 500Wx2 when fully distorted.
Also consider your enclosure. If the box is ported @ 40Hz, all frequencies below 40Hz are unloaded. Also, any sound at aproximately 50-55Hz is done so with 3-6db of gain...making the speaker more efficient with less power.
There is no such thing as break in time for a speaker. From factory, their surrounds may be a little stiffer, but after a few hours of play, they'll loosen up, and the speaker will react at it's design paramaters. Kinda like a new pair of shoes. You don't have to break them in to run in them.
Give us a breakdown of your box parameters. Are you certain you have a box designed for your woofers? or did you just buy a box and install the speakers?
Also, what wiring configuration are you using?
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 16:17:19
Heh in a way i just bought the box and installed the speakers :P except there arn't many boxes available for Kicker L5's since they are square...so im not sure of the exact box parameters, However i do know the box was designed for Kicker L5's 15" woofers specifically.
My speakers' voicecoils are wired in series and then briged together at the amp.
Thanks for that website too it really does a good job of explaining how speakers blow.
All im worried about is blowing these 900 dollar speakers. I just noticed today that when i step in the car after i haven't been it in for a while and the speakers haven't been played, i do faintly smell the rubber smell...So maybe it is just new rubber smell or the " epoxy coating that hold coils to bobbin and speaker may be burn off residue," as swez said.
Is that safe and a normal thing to happen? By the way i didn't notice the smell as much today when i was driving home :)
Thanks for all the help
MrBrownstone on 04/19/2005 16:48:36
There's no such thing as 'bridged' together. Series/parallel, series/series, parallel/parallel.
Are these dual 2ohm or dual 4ohm coils? wired in series gives you either (2) 4 ohm woofers or (2) 8 ohm woofers after you make the selection. From there, you wire the speakers with the amplifier in either a series or parallel configuration.
Also are they running bridged off the amplifier. That amplifier is a 150Wx2 @ 4ohms amplifier, and if run bridged, is likely 450Wx1 @ 4ohms or 800Wx2 @ 2 ohms. This means that your woofers could see 1600W or 800 per woofer....much higher than their rating.
That would lead to the overheating of the woofers.
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 17:09:18
Sorry that's what i meant...Bridged off the amplifier...
Kicker.com says that they can run at 2ohms or 4ohms and are Dual Voice Coiled.
Their RMS per woofer is 750 and their peak is 1500...So they would barely be getting anything over their rating...right?
The other reason i didn't think they were overheating is that when i put my hand over the port holes, the air coming out is always cool...
ttocs on 04/19/2005 17:09:42
"There is no such thing as break in time for a speaker. From factory, their surrounds may be a little stiffer, but after a few hours of play, they'll loosen up, and the speaker will react at it's design paramaters. Kinda like a new pair of shoes. You don't have to break them in to run in them."
If it takes a couple of hours to loosen them up, isn't that a break in period? Anything with moving parts will have a break in period wouldn't it? No use splitting hairs, just curious.
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 17:11:08
Yea i thought i noticed a break in period also...just in the fullness of the sound from when i first got them to a couple days after. But anyways i posted the rms and peak of the speakers above ttocs post...sorry about the specs i gave in the very first post...it was for the 12's and i have the 15's lol so they are 750 RMS 1500 peak...
swez on 04/19/2005 19:42:07
Man, this post is making me dizzy... (from the smell).
From what I gather so far, this amp seems to be doing its job adequately as no excess heat, no thermal shut off etc. That leads me to focus on the sub enclosure and Port Tuning Frequency of same.
Since this is an off-the-shelf enclosure, let's focus on the box dimensions and port size used. Do you have the dimensions of this enclosure and details on the port design?
Ported enclosures REQUIRE a SS filter. However, to set the filter to correct value, we have to determine the port tune freq. (PTF) To do that properly, we need the external dimensions of the box, port dimensions and sub displacement. That's what I am asking from you.
FYI: Knowing the PTF of an enclosure is very important. If we allow audio signals below PFT to pass through the SS Filter and into the sub, the cone will unload, generate little audible sound and generate a lot of heat in the process. This is what can destroy even a potent sub design like the Solos. That is why I am asking the dimensional questions.
Finally, cool air out the ports... that's a good sign. However, that does not mean the coils are not getting pretty warm at times. Am not much into sub sniffing myself, but you must have an incredible sense of smell. That smell is telling us something... just not sure what???
Swez
danielm87 on 04/19/2005 23:34:07
-Your subs have been "broken-in" already, regardless of any debate on whether it is needed.....your subs arent the problem....maybe the "victim" of a problem, but not causing anything voluntarily. SMILE
-The amp isnt producing any excess heat, the auto protect mode isnt coming on, so its not an issue with the amp.
-Beau640....you must heed the words of Swez when he is commenting on Ported Enclosures and the EXTREME importance of using SubSonic filters.
- It seems as though its all boiled down to the issue of this "Pre-Fab" box that you've bought.
If you cant find any specs from where you bought it, then just measure the outside dimensions and dont forget to tell us if the box is 1/2", 3/4", or 1" thick.
Then measure the length and diameter of the port(s).
With that info, we can tell you what the cubic footage and PTF is..
Then we can diagnose what the problem is, or even what the problem is not.....
Good Luck!
Beau640 on 04/20/2005 13:13:05
Okay, went outside and measured it all :) thanks for sticking with me through this :P
Box is 1" Thick
PORT SIZE: (not including 1" thickness for the Top to Bottom measurement so it is just the size of the port itself)
There are 2 ports and they are in the middle of the box between the speakers. There is a 3/4" thick piece of wood between the ports.
From top to bottom it is 14"
Width: 1 3/4"
Depth: 17" (same as box)
BOX: (Including 1" thickness of walls)
Left to Right is 40"
Top to Bottom is 16"
Front to Back 17"
CHAMBERS: (Including 1" thickness of walls)
Left to Right is 18" (which makes sense cause box is 40 so 18X2 + 1 3/4X2 (each port hole is in the middle of the box between the speakers) + 3/4 is approximately 40)
Top to Bottom is 16" (same as box)
Front to Back is 17" (same as box)
My sub sonic filter is on my amp and the knob to set it is only a screw. All it does is give you the max and min freq (20-50hz) and it doesn't tell you what your currently set at...so it's kinda like a guessing game to set it or a rough estimate. Is there an easier way to set and and did i give you enough information on the box so you could tell?
My Sub Sonic Filter is set at 20Hz
Thanks a lot :)
swez on 04/20/2005 20:44:07
As I ran some basic calculations, this box is way too small for a pair of ported 15L5's. Kicker Street Bass box recommends:
STREET BASS BASS ENCLOSURE (Solid SQL Bass)
Chamber: 4.5 cf per sub
Port dimensions: 3.0" W, 16.25" H" and 14.75" D
Port Tuning Freq: 30 Hz.
See page 9 of the link below for details:
http://www.kicker.com/05/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2005/2005%20Solo-Baric%20L5%20Sub%20manual.pdf
From what I can see here, this box would be better if converted to a sealed sub system. This would give you >2.25ft^3 per sub and nice, tight bass performance.
I cannot determine the port frequency based on info given in earlier details. If you want to stick with a ported design, this box is NG. Need more like 3.0 - 6.0 ft^3 per sub and a different port dimension. This box is way too small for decent performance from a pair of 15L5's. I would shoot for the Street Bass enclosure if you have the space.
Comments?
Swez
PS For now, set your SS filter to 40 Hz. Yes, it's a guess... but better to error on the side of higher, than going lower and risk damaging your subs.
Beau640 on 04/20/2005 21:05:35
Haha what's crazy is that this box goes from like wall to wall of my Jeep Cheroke in the trunk. I have no space for a box that is bigger :(
Thanks for running all the calculations. I don't know how i would go about converting this into a sealed enclosure...Cause right now the bass is so deep and loud. I've already been told it's the loudest around :) makes me not want to set the SS filter higher :P
By the way...I didn't smell it at all today :) I'll tweak the SS filter a little and see how it sounds. If the smell comes back, then i'll put it back up to 40Hz.
Also, if this was to be converted to a sealed enclosure, how would that effect the sound? Louder/Softer? Bass not as deep anymore?
Thanks for helping me through all this :)
swez on 04/20/2005 21:29:16
To make this a sealed box, just add a panel across the vents and close them up entirely.
Yes, you will lose a few dB of bass output this way, but it will still be plenty loud with that much power. Low bass will be good as will punch from upper bass too.
The width of the box may not be adjusted due to space issues, but going taller and or deeper, will give you a larger box and more bass than you have now. I would shoot for the Street Bass specs... 4.5 ft^3/sub and tuned to 30-35 Hz. This will be notably more deep bass than the box you have now. Kicker makes subs that perform best in HUGE boxes.
Swez
You are most welcome!
Beau640 on 04/21/2005 16:34:29
I have one last theory...
I was playing around with the SS filter today and first of all i really didn't notice much of a difference in the sound of the bass when i turned it up or down. There was a slight change but not much so i set it at about 40Hz like you said to. Can you hurt your subs by setting it too high for the box?
Also, when i was inspecting my ports today, i noticed that they were painted. Even when the subs are off, if i stick my nose in the ports i can smell that smell. When the subs are on loud, soooo much air comes out those ports. I think that so much air is coming out and circulating through the car that im smelling the new paint smell of the box.
Just a thought. What do you think?
swez on 04/21/2005 18:46:02
There is a quick method to determine the approximate PTF of your sub enclosure. A series of test tones between 20-100 Hz will give you a pretty good idea what the subs can do.
Watch the cones and place your hand near the ports. At PTF, the cones move very little and most bass pressure will come from the ports. Also, your greatest SPL from the subs will be at or slightly above PTF. As you move up past PTF, you will see more cone movement and the signal may get louder too as car resonances come into play.
Below PTF, the subs will have very low output as they "unload". Depending on output settings on the amp, you may see little to spuratic cone movements. In most cases, you may hear very little bass output below 30 Hz, but there is still many watts going to the voice coils. This is where the danger zone is. My guess, you may find this happening below 40 Hz.
Here's a test tone file that may be useful for testing purposes.
http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/testwavs/
Try the 3stepoct.zip file and make a copy as noted in the directions.
Swez
Beau640 on 04/22/2005 07:26:02
So since i dont know the exact frequency...
Is it better to see the cones moving more or less? Cause you said less could be below PTF and then they just start to overheat and don't move enogh even though they are getting many watts...
So it sounds like the cones should be moving a lot. Can they move too much? Or do i want them at exactly PTF where they don't move much...
And could my paint theory have anything to do with it?
Thanks :)
swez on 04/22/2005 11:26:10
Not sure about the paint theory here. It may just be the glues used in speaker assy you are smelling as they heat up.
OK, talked to my brother on the smell issues and he confirmed that in ported applications, you can observe the cone going into oscillations that cause damage to the coil windings and the enamal coatings used on the coils. (insulating material) Below PFT, the cone will begin to move in unatural patterns and generate much heat as well. This heat, translates to eventual failure of the coil as the insulation materials burn off to created a short or open coil.
To set your SS Filter, observe the cone movement and look for that oscillation of the cone at low frequencies. Set the SSF high enough to remove that behavior and go from there.
NOTE: Avoid using bass boost features on the sub amp or HU. These can cause more harm than good, if we use more than a few dB of boost at ~40-45 Hz.
Hope that helps,
Swez
Beau640 on 04/22/2005 15:35:08
Woah thanks a lot i didn't want to blow my speakers
Set my SS at about 40Hz and i try to only use the Bass Boost knob for show or competition :) I have noticed a decrease in the smell though since i set my SS higher.
Thanks a lot for all the help :) We finally figured out what it probably was!
swez on 04/23/2005 09:41:30
Yes, I think we did... good luck! HAPPY
Swez
Replies (27)
alanjlamore on 04/18/2005 16:44:40
If the amp is being worked too hard it could be the smell of the internal capacitors frying.
They give off a weird smell, and when I was powering my amp at or above it's max (bridged with the gain set possibly too high) I smelled a weird smell.
Eventually one of the 2 channels that I had bridged blew. I think I had the gain set too high.
swez on 04/18/2005 16:50:25
Voice coils could be getting a mite warm and if new, they may smell a bit for a time. Best thing to do is go back where the subs live and do a sniff test to isolate the smell. Sounds like epoxy coating that hold coils to bobbin and speaker may be burn off residue.
Also, check your amp temp as well. It may be getting a tad hot and depending on where it is mounted, may get some smells there too.
What gage power wire are you using here? (#4 should be minimum wire gage... #2 would be better. Inspect your power line for heat as well.
Swez
PS Is this a sealed sub unit or ported? If Ported, are you using a Subsonic filter? Should be... to protect your subs.
Beau640 on 04/18/2005 17:12:45
Yes my box is ported and has the sub sonic filter built into the amp. I dont think its the amp i smelled it and thats not where it seemed to be coming from. (my computer sub doesnt have an amp either and it still makes that smell, although i dont notice it much anymoer since its older now). The subs havent had 20 hours of playtime yet either, probably about 10 max. It might just be becasue they are new, although my old Audiobahn subs made that smell too when they were old. The amp's gain is set at max becasue there still is no distortion ever, so i never turned it down. I've had the amp for almost a year and i alwasy turn it up loud, nothing has blown on the amp. This audiobahn amp has a heat protecter too, so if it gets too hot it will shut itself off (which has never happneed yet). Also it has 2 fans on the front. It's mounted in a wide open spot also. I'm confused to what this smell is
Beau640 on 04/18/2005 17:16:31
Ok i just went and smelled it. Its 100% not coming from the amp. Its coming out of the ported holes. The air coming from the holes is also very cool however so i don't think the voice coils are having trouble distributing the heat...And its not a burning smell...So maybe it is just cause they are new?
Beau640 on 04/18/2005 17:53:32
I am using a 4 gauge wire too (sorry i forget to put that in the last post :P) but the smell is defenately not coming from the amp.
ttocs on 04/18/2005 18:20:56
I will 1rst warn you that you could blow those speakers with that amp, with any amp..... You can blow a speaker with too little pwr just as easy, if not easier then you could with too much. Having an amp that has a max pwr less then the peak of the subs does not mean you are safe.
Being that the speakers are new, I would guess that your "break in" phase might be a little rough on them. Understand that a speaker is a moving piece of equipment and needs time to start working properly and make sure everything is in line correctly. Just like you are supposed to take it easy for the first few thousand miles on a car, you are supposed to take it easy for the 1rst 10-20 hrs on the sub. Pluggin it in and crankin it up is the worst thing you could do to it, with a few exceptions that Mr B has probably already done....
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 08:05:39
Yea i know your supposed to take it easy on them...even though i haven't been that easy on them i don't think thats contributing to the smell only because my old speakers which had probably about 50 hours of playtime made that smell too. My old speakers were in a dual bandpass box and the smell came right out of the holes on the sides...if you stuck your nose right up to the holes it was very concentrated there. On these new speakers in the ported box the smell is not nearly as strong and smells a little more like rubber, but still is coming right out of the holes. And for the "break in" time its 10-20 hours of playtime not 10-20 hours of installation correct?
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 08:11:06
sorry for the double post
ttocs on 04/19/2005 11:54:21
no prob, fixed by the pwr of the dangly medal.....
10-20 hrs of installation? It should not take that long to install the subs, but that would not help the break-in...
MrBrownstone on 04/19/2005 14:47:19
Here's a little schpiel on blowing speakers, etc.
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=2.topic
In a nutshell, amplifiers can put out 2.5X the amount of rated RMS power @ 100% distortion (THD). It's not uncommon for a 200Wx2 amp to put out 500Wx2 when fully distorted.
Also consider your enclosure. If the box is ported @ 40Hz, all frequencies below 40Hz are unloaded. Also, any sound at aproximately 50-55Hz is done so with 3-6db of gain...making the speaker more efficient with less power.
There is no such thing as break in time for a speaker. From factory, their surrounds may be a little stiffer, but after a few hours of play, they'll loosen up, and the speaker will react at it's design paramaters. Kinda like a new pair of shoes. You don't have to break them in to run in them.
Give us a breakdown of your box parameters. Are you certain you have a box designed for your woofers? or did you just buy a box and install the speakers?
Also, what wiring configuration are you using?
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 16:17:19
Heh in a way i just bought the box and installed the speakers :P except there arn't many boxes available for Kicker L5's since they are square...so im not sure of the exact box parameters, However i do know the box was designed for Kicker L5's 15" woofers specifically.
My speakers' voicecoils are wired in series and then briged together at the amp.
Thanks for that website too it really does a good job of explaining how speakers blow.
All im worried about is blowing these 900 dollar speakers. I just noticed today that when i step in the car after i haven't been it in for a while and the speakers haven't been played, i do faintly smell the rubber smell...So maybe it is just new rubber smell or the " epoxy coating that hold coils to bobbin and speaker may be burn off residue," as swez said.
Is that safe and a normal thing to happen? By the way i didn't notice the smell as much today when i was driving home :)
Thanks for all the help
MrBrownstone on 04/19/2005 16:48:36
There's no such thing as 'bridged' together. Series/parallel, series/series, parallel/parallel.
Are these dual 2ohm or dual 4ohm coils? wired in series gives you either (2) 4 ohm woofers or (2) 8 ohm woofers after you make the selection. From there, you wire the speakers with the amplifier in either a series or parallel configuration.
Also are they running bridged off the amplifier. That amplifier is a 150Wx2 @ 4ohms amplifier, and if run bridged, is likely 450Wx1 @ 4ohms or 800Wx2 @ 2 ohms. This means that your woofers could see 1600W or 800 per woofer....much higher than their rating.
That would lead to the overheating of the woofers.
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 17:09:18
Sorry that's what i meant...Bridged off the amplifier...
Kicker.com says that they can run at 2ohms or 4ohms and are Dual Voice Coiled.
Their RMS per woofer is 750 and their peak is 1500...So they would barely be getting anything over their rating...right?
The other reason i didn't think they were overheating is that when i put my hand over the port holes, the air coming out is always cool...
ttocs on 04/19/2005 17:09:42
"There is no such thing as break in time for a speaker. From factory, their surrounds may be a little stiffer, but after a few hours of play, they'll loosen up, and the speaker will react at it's design paramaters. Kinda like a new pair of shoes. You don't have to break them in to run in them."
If it takes a couple of hours to loosen them up, isn't that a break in period? Anything with moving parts will have a break in period wouldn't it? No use splitting hairs, just curious.
Beau640 on 04/19/2005 17:11:08
Yea i thought i noticed a break in period also...just in the fullness of the sound from when i first got them to a couple days after. But anyways i posted the rms and peak of the speakers above ttocs post...sorry about the specs i gave in the very first post...it was for the 12's and i have the 15's lol so they are 750 RMS 1500 peak...
swez on 04/19/2005 19:42:07
Man, this post is making me dizzy... (from the smell).
From what I gather so far, this amp seems to be doing its job adequately as no excess heat, no thermal shut off etc. That leads me to focus on the sub enclosure and Port Tuning Frequency of same.
Since this is an off-the-shelf enclosure, let's focus on the box dimensions and port size used. Do you have the dimensions of this enclosure and details on the port design?
Ported enclosures REQUIRE a SS filter. However, to set the filter to correct value, we have to determine the port tune freq. (PTF) To do that properly, we need the external dimensions of the box, port dimensions and sub displacement. That's what I am asking from you.
FYI: Knowing the PTF of an enclosure is very important. If we allow audio signals below PFT to pass through the SS Filter and into the sub, the cone will unload, generate little audible sound and generate a lot of heat in the process. This is what can destroy even a potent sub design like the Solos. That is why I am asking the dimensional questions.
Finally, cool air out the ports... that's a good sign. However, that does not mean the coils are not getting pretty warm at times. Am not much into sub sniffing myself, but you must have an incredible sense of smell. That smell is telling us something... just not sure what???
Swez
danielm87 on 04/19/2005 23:34:07
-Your subs have been "broken-in" already, regardless of any debate on whether it is needed.....your subs arent the problem....maybe the "victim" of a problem, but not causing anything voluntarily. SMILE
-The amp isnt producing any excess heat, the auto protect mode isnt coming on, so its not an issue with the amp.
-Beau640....you must heed the words of Swez when he is commenting on Ported Enclosures and the EXTREME importance of using SubSonic filters.
- It seems as though its all boiled down to the issue of this "Pre-Fab" box that you've bought.
If you cant find any specs from where you bought it, then just measure the outside dimensions and dont forget to tell us if the box is 1/2", 3/4", or 1" thick.
Then measure the length and diameter of the port(s).
With that info, we can tell you what the cubic footage and PTF is..
Then we can diagnose what the problem is, or even what the problem is not.....
Good Luck!
Beau640 on 04/20/2005 13:13:05
Okay, went outside and measured it all :) thanks for sticking with me through this :P
Box is 1" Thick
PORT SIZE: (not including 1" thickness for the Top to Bottom measurement so it is just the size of the port itself)
There are 2 ports and they are in the middle of the box between the speakers. There is a 3/4" thick piece of wood between the ports.
From top to bottom it is 14"
Width: 1 3/4"
Depth: 17" (same as box)
BOX: (Including 1" thickness of walls)
Left to Right is 40"
Top to Bottom is 16"
Front to Back 17"
CHAMBERS: (Including 1" thickness of walls)
Left to Right is 18" (which makes sense cause box is 40 so 18X2 + 1 3/4X2 (each port hole is in the middle of the box between the speakers) + 3/4 is approximately 40)
Top to Bottom is 16" (same as box)
Front to Back is 17" (same as box)
My sub sonic filter is on my amp and the knob to set it is only a screw. All it does is give you the max and min freq (20-50hz) and it doesn't tell you what your currently set at...so it's kinda like a guessing game to set it or a rough estimate. Is there an easier way to set and and did i give you enough information on the box so you could tell?
My Sub Sonic Filter is set at 20Hz
Thanks a lot :)
swez on 04/20/2005 20:44:07
As I ran some basic calculations, this box is way too small for a pair of ported 15L5's. Kicker Street Bass box recommends:
STREET BASS BASS ENCLOSURE (Solid SQL Bass)
Chamber: 4.5 cf per sub
Port dimensions: 3.0" W, 16.25" H" and 14.75" D
Port Tuning Freq: 30 Hz.
See page 9 of the link below for details:
http://www.kicker.com/05/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2005/2005%20Solo-Baric%20L5%20Sub%20manual.pdf
From what I can see here, this box would be better if converted to a sealed sub system. This would give you >2.25ft^3 per sub and nice, tight bass performance.
I cannot determine the port frequency based on info given in earlier details. If you want to stick with a ported design, this box is NG. Need more like 3.0 - 6.0 ft^3 per sub and a different port dimension. This box is way too small for decent performance from a pair of 15L5's. I would shoot for the Street Bass enclosure if you have the space.
Comments?
Swez
PS For now, set your SS filter to 40 Hz. Yes, it's a guess... but better to error on the side of higher, than going lower and risk damaging your subs.
Beau640 on 04/20/2005 21:05:35
Haha what's crazy is that this box goes from like wall to wall of my Jeep Cheroke in the trunk. I have no space for a box that is bigger :(
Thanks for running all the calculations. I don't know how i would go about converting this into a sealed enclosure...Cause right now the bass is so deep and loud. I've already been told it's the loudest around :) makes me not want to set the SS filter higher :P
By the way...I didn't smell it at all today :) I'll tweak the SS filter a little and see how it sounds. If the smell comes back, then i'll put it back up to 40Hz.
Also, if this was to be converted to a sealed enclosure, how would that effect the sound? Louder/Softer? Bass not as deep anymore?
Thanks for helping me through all this :)
swez on 04/20/2005 21:29:16
To make this a sealed box, just add a panel across the vents and close them up entirely.
Yes, you will lose a few dB of bass output this way, but it will still be plenty loud with that much power. Low bass will be good as will punch from upper bass too.
The width of the box may not be adjusted due to space issues, but going taller and or deeper, will give you a larger box and more bass than you have now. I would shoot for the Street Bass specs... 4.5 ft^3/sub and tuned to 30-35 Hz. This will be notably more deep bass than the box you have now. Kicker makes subs that perform best in HUGE boxes.
Swez
You are most welcome!
Beau640 on 04/21/2005 16:34:29
I have one last theory...
I was playing around with the SS filter today and first of all i really didn't notice much of a difference in the sound of the bass when i turned it up or down. There was a slight change but not much so i set it at about 40Hz like you said to. Can you hurt your subs by setting it too high for the box?
Also, when i was inspecting my ports today, i noticed that they were painted. Even when the subs are off, if i stick my nose in the ports i can smell that smell. When the subs are on loud, soooo much air comes out those ports. I think that so much air is coming out and circulating through the car that im smelling the new paint smell of the box.
Just a thought. What do you think?
swez on 04/21/2005 18:46:02
There is a quick method to determine the approximate PTF of your sub enclosure. A series of test tones between 20-100 Hz will give you a pretty good idea what the subs can do.
Watch the cones and place your hand near the ports. At PTF, the cones move very little and most bass pressure will come from the ports. Also, your greatest SPL from the subs will be at or slightly above PTF. As you move up past PTF, you will see more cone movement and the signal may get louder too as car resonances come into play.
Below PTF, the subs will have very low output as they "unload". Depending on output settings on the amp, you may see little to spuratic cone movements. In most cases, you may hear very little bass output below 30 Hz, but there is still many watts going to the voice coils. This is where the danger zone is. My guess, you may find this happening below 40 Hz.
Here's a test tone file that may be useful for testing purposes.
http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/testwavs/
Try the 3stepoct.zip file and make a copy as noted in the directions.
Swez
Beau640 on 04/22/2005 07:26:02
So since i dont know the exact frequency...
Is it better to see the cones moving more or less? Cause you said less could be below PTF and then they just start to overheat and don't move enogh even though they are getting many watts...
So it sounds like the cones should be moving a lot. Can they move too much? Or do i want them at exactly PTF where they don't move much...
And could my paint theory have anything to do with it?
Thanks :)
swez on 04/22/2005 11:26:10
Not sure about the paint theory here. It may just be the glues used in speaker assy you are smelling as they heat up.
OK, talked to my brother on the smell issues and he confirmed that in ported applications, you can observe the cone going into oscillations that cause damage to the coil windings and the enamal coatings used on the coils. (insulating material) Below PFT, the cone will begin to move in unatural patterns and generate much heat as well. This heat, translates to eventual failure of the coil as the insulation materials burn off to created a short or open coil.
To set your SS Filter, observe the cone movement and look for that oscillation of the cone at low frequencies. Set the SSF high enough to remove that behavior and go from there.
NOTE: Avoid using bass boost features on the sub amp or HU. These can cause more harm than good, if we use more than a few dB of boost at ~40-45 Hz.
Hope that helps,
Swez
Beau640 on 04/22/2005 15:35:08
Woah thanks a lot i didn't want to blow my speakers
Set my SS at about 40Hz and i try to only use the Bass Boost knob for show or competition :) I have noticed a decrease in the smell though since i set my SS higher.
Thanks a lot for all the help :) We finally figured out what it probably was!
swez on 04/23/2005 09:41:30
Yes, I think we did... good luck! HAPPY
Swez
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