I express my heart felt condolences to all those affected in the minnesota shoot out.
Also see the need of reviewing the Arms law in the USA.
Replies (20)
ttocs on 03/22/2005 13:17:19
thankyou from so far off.
I think I am probably one of the few that agree with you, unfortunatly.... But as it is, it is every americans god given right to be able to carry a gun that can sqeeze off 900 rounds per min. How do you get buy without one????
gearhead on 03/22/2005 14:17:28
There's a good chance that the guns used in this incident belonged to a police officer. How would a stricter gun ownership have prevented this?
UKinstaller on 03/22/2005 15:11:09
yeah it's not like we just give guns to people. if we had a no arms law, the person that has them illegally will win every time.
-UK
MrBrownstone on 03/22/2005 16:15:44
The real problem here is that the kid had no value of life. His or anyone else's.
It seems that the breakdown in the family is the main cause of inappropriate behavior. For some reason, kids from a broken home need to act out--feel the missing parent isn't listening?
This kid's Dad took his own life 4 years ago, and his mother was in a nursing home due to a car accident. Basically, his only parental figure was his grandparent and his girlfriend (not the grandma).
It's truly sad that this kid was on a 'watch' list, forced to be schooled from home due to behaviorial issues. He wasn't even a part of the school anymore, but was so damaged by the way he was ostracized by other students, he felt the need to go back and take vengence.
For those of you listening with school-aged friends and relatives, there IS life after high school. Being a tee-pee creeper in a white bread with mayonnaise school, I was subject to modest ridicule..in part due to my own behavior. It's just that we settled it with fists, man to man. Toe to toe. Not "..I'll just shoot at defenseless people because I'm a coward and don't feel I measure up to other people" Why not just ignore everybody, and leave town??? Get a GED? Heck, since High School, I only regularly talk to 1 person in my graduating class!!!
I guess the main breakdown here is that the kid was acting out. The 'neo-Nazi' label is merely a social rejection action. When you are told you didn' t make the cheerleading team, you can either try harder next time, or swear off cheerleading. This kid, turned on the cheerleaders...figuratively.
Where this can be solved is when kids feel that they are good for nothing, they do things that mimic their feelings. He felt he needed to be distructive, and didn't have an outlet for his feelings.
I don't know how many of you kids feel unwanted or unappreciated by your parents or step-parents, but I can tell you, you don't win by this type of behavior. You lose. Your life, or your freedom for the next 25 to life. Why not just serve a 1 or 2 year sentence of being miserable, and take control of your life when you are 18?
Ever notice there are no college shootings? Sounds like if you can just get through high school, your life is worth living.
MrBrownstone on 03/22/2005 16:21:08
PS
This is the 2nd school shooting in Minnesota in 18 months. Kinda makes that age old stereotype of 'inner city' schools are dangerous invalidated. First time in 6 or 7 years a NON white person killed someone in school.
Ironically, all the shootings in Paducah & Columbine (and the other one in MN) were all whitey. Time to take care of ALL children like they are our own. You can either punish, or inspire these kids. Punishment only works if they agree that they deserve what they are getting. Inspire them, then show them the consequences of their actions when they agree to them.
These kids are the biggest 3 year olds on the planet, not hardened criminals.
ttocs on 03/22/2005 17:37:45
How many of these situations happen in the UK? What are the gun laws there?
I was a runt in high school. When I graduated I was a little over 5 ft, right around 100lbs. I too was picked on more then I thought was needed, but I will not say today that I didn't have a little bit comming for the way I acted. I HATED HIGH SCHOOL! I had a good group of friends that I do still talk to regularly today, but we certainly were not the kewl crowd if there is such a thing. After high school I bounced around a while(while eventually growning to nearly 6ft, and 180lbs) and eventually found my way to where I am now. I think high school is supposed to suck, and I am greatfull that it did... I recently went back to my 10yr reunion and had a great time. All the kids that used to pick on me looked 10yrs older then me, were working nasty jobs, and just did not look happy. I think they got use to having it easy in HS, and did not know what to do when they got out and realized that there is no longer a cool crowd that they could belong to....
I certainly am not telling people to make sure HS sucks for someone else. I would love for people to taste their own words and know how it feels to be that person.
uochronos on 03/22/2005 20:57:39
i persoanly think better value(not stricter but better one) and better control of guns is required. Not the removal of weapons from the population this wouldnt do any good... the criminals are the ones that we want to take the guns away from right? well i hate to tell you this but even if guns where banned to an extent it would not stop a criminal from buying one..
i can make a few calls and get a fuklly auto AK 47 thats not a legal wepon to have but for the right amount you cang et anything you want in any country you are in...
i personaly have several guns and you know what when i'm not using them for target shooting they are in a locked safe. its not guns that kill people its stupid people who kill people... never once have i seen somone accidently shot if you where handling the wepon right it would not have happened... simply put maybe if people stoped working 60hours a week and not teaching there children right from wrong this wouldnt happen...
also i got the living hell beat out of me at school on a regular basis from 4th-8th grade and never once did i think oh i should get my dads 9mm and kill some people. why? because i was taught right from wrong and gun saftey at a young age...
just my 2 cents...
Chronos
Needasystem on 03/22/2005 21:15:16
I have a tendancy to blame the parents in any situation like this (unlike most idiots who blame society and video games) If the parents watch over their kids, and if their kids think their parents are "overprotective" then the parents are doing a good job. I'm 17, there are guns in my house, but if I wanted to go and shoot someone, I wouldnt be able to do it, because I have no access to guns, they are all kept in a locked safe, like they should be, and only my dad knows the combination to it. If the parents do their job, they should be able to tell when their child is going to go crazy and shoot up a bunch of kids at school. People blame the schools and blame society, but guess what, high school sucked 30 years ago, and people didnt go shoot up their cafeteria, and back then all the kids probably had their own gun since they were 10. People are always looking to shift the responsibility on to someone else, and parents need to step up and do their job.
Victor on 03/22/2005 23:03:21
I seem to agree with all of you there..
The social structure of the american society where the kids are brought up is very strange.. (GENERALLY) Both the parents are working, they dont have much time to attend to theirs kids emotional needs.
Also I would say that.. not just a kid but no common man needs to have a gun. Its a weapon either the police can have it by law or the criminals can have it for breaking the law.. there is no need for a common man to carry a gun.Or a sportsman can own a gun.
A country like India where there is more poverty than the US, Where there is a higher rate of illiteracy, whose population is 3 times that of the US and not a single incidence like this has ever happened...The reason, = Better family bonding , stricter arms law, costly arms and ammunition.
A common man has many better things to do then buy a gun and carry it around.. If anyone in India has a gun( even officially )then he is considered to be of a notorious character and not to make friends with or mess with guy..
A gun has no place in the Indian society, only anti-social elements ( even the police is considered anti-social, hehe ) go around with a weapon..
Victor...
UKinstaller on 03/23/2005 00:37:00
that's crap. what's wrong with someone owning a gun to protect themselves?? do you expect us horrible americans to sit back and let someone shoot at us and have nothing in return?? just curious.
-UK
Victor on 03/23/2005 02:23:56
He he he .. thats what i really wonder about americans..( no offence ) but why do u have this great feeling of insecurity in you...??
We in India feel more secure when we know that the next person we meet does not have a gun.. lol.. If i know that every other person i meet is gonna have a gun then i would really feel very insecure..
Why would someone shoot at you if you have done no offence to them or done nothing wrong to anyone.. ???
How many times is a Gun used for self defence...?? Also even if it is used for self defence what does a Gun ultimately do.. HURT - HARM - KILL .. thats all a gun can do..
How many times does a gun owner face danger from his own weapon.. ever wondered that.. there are so many cases when a thief or an intruder uses you own gun to harm you..
It is a weapon, and a weapon does not know who it is shooting at.. its ONLY job is to KILL.. and it does that job blindly..
With the amount of frustration creeping into the minds of young common people a gun is the last thing you would want to give them.
This is what a common man back here in India feels about guns..
Bullet for a bullet is no way to bring peace.. or keep your self secure.. with so many people around you carrying guns it becomes practically impossible to know and control the minds of frustrated people.. and the outcome is accidents like Minnesota Shoot out..
Ever wondered why there is a gun in hands of youngsters insted of a pen..??
The whole socio - economic structure of a society combined with law is responsible for such events...
Give it a thought..
Victor...
gearhead on 03/23/2005 09:26:10
Based on sheer numbers, India is ranked #1 in murders worlwide. The U.S. is ranked #6. Based on per capita, the U.S. is ranked #24 (.04 per 1000 people) and India is ranked #27 (.03 per 1000 people). While guns may not be the cause, India's murder totals are still 300% higher than the U.S. ,37,170 vs. 12,658 (1999). So, what weapon should be outlawed in India to curb their murder rate? Knives, clubs, or hands?
ttocs on 03/23/2005 09:35:59
I agree victor. Last time I had check louisville KY had not been attacked, I see no need for something to return fire with. I also agree that unless you are military, cop, criminal or sportsman that you have no need for a gun. There is NO need for ANYONE except a crook er cop er military to have a full auto gun. I own a house and have considered a small handgun to keep around the house, "in case of". I would be more apt to invest in a home security network...
I also agree that any gunowner should have it properly locked up, and should educate his kids, but I would say the same about any car owner as well.
i think I see victors side better, but lets make sure we keep this clean and that no one gets upset. I am certainly not meaning to insult anyone, as I am sure is the case with everyone else. Speak your opinion and listen to ours, don't go away mad, there is no need....
swez on 03/23/2005 10:32:24
My 2 cents... guns are very much apart of our American heritage. Our founding fathers thought it best to allow all people who want guns, the right to have them. Guns are just tools in the hands of properly trained persons.
I personally do not own a gun, see no need for one at the moment either. However, if I was in a line of work or traveled regularly to some of the rougher parts of Detroit, packing a "thug stopper" would be an option I would consider. I would take gun safety classes and other self-defence measures to disable a potential perp with a weapon. The old adage... " A stong offensive position is better than a weak defensive strategy".
Kids.... they are a product of our constantly morphing society. In the 50's, 60's, & 70's, most families had stay at home moms and the bread winner made enough to support the family adequately. In today's economy, we have exchanged strong family ties and values for get all the toys and fun stuff we can.
Often, both parents work and have bought into the lie that MORE STUFF is better. That leaves our kids in a very vulnerable position. Latch key kids at home for hours w/o any adult supervision can lead to all kinds of undetected problems. (Teenage sex, drugs, alcoholism and other undesireable behaviors) When we have more disposable income, we tend to buy Jenny or Lenny stuff they don't need, get bored with quickly, and the cycle repeats itself adnausium. I see it every day in my little neighborhood.
This underminds the bonds that need to take place in the family stucture. Guys, take your son fishing, bowling, golfing, hunting, camping, boating. Teach him to be skilled with his head and his hands in many areas. Mom's have the same role with their girls. Teach them to become women. Have them help out with cooking, cleaning, shopping, crafting, tennis, gardening or whatever.... just make time for them and listen as they talk about what is going on in the childs' life.
We single guys can help as well. Do we know any single Moms who have to work to support the family? We can have a huge impact on those kids too. Talk with them, do things together and show them a positive role model of what it looks like to be a responsible male figure. Some may not get the conversations at first, but they will "catch" what they see others doing. Just hanging out together, doing a project or taking a bike ride together, can make a huge difference if we are consistant with them.
Finally, to parents... know who your kids hang out with. These kids have more influence over them than we do. (peer pressure) Get to know their parents and teachers too. This will help us to remain connected to our kids. Monitor their TV and gaming habits. The crap they see on TV, has a very large impact on how they view the world. If we get them involved in character building activities like sports, shop skills, camping and wilderness training, they will become accustom to team based activities and how to bond with other like minded people. Isolation, depression, anti-social behaviors and lots of peer pressure, can ruin a kid well before he/she turns 16.
Swez
PS OK, that was more than 2 cents worth, but this is what I am very concerned about. I have a neighbor with a 14 year old boy. His Mom works 60-75 hours a week. His Dad owns a small business. Neither one of them are consistant with how they raise this youngster. He gets every toy, game, cell phone, computer and other gizzmos under the sun. His parents often swear at him and he gets mouthy back. I see a steady parade of young dudes and a few girls coming over to hang out on the street corners. Most of them are pretty rough looking/talking too.
He does play play street hockey, likes tinkering with mechanical things and is actually a pretty bright kid. But, his parents are ruining his sense of responsibilities. He has none. They abdicate their parental roles to other neighborhood kids.
I have stepped in on many occassions to say... hey bud, bring your project over to my garage and let's see what we can build together. We used to go bike riding a lot and I'd take him for ice cream too. It's not enough... but it is an opportunity for him to learn new skills, gain confidence in his abilities and vent his feelings on matters at home.
I listen, offer suggestions that might change his attitudes and hopefully, show him what a good male role model looks like. He shows great respect for my mentoring and I have noted some positive changes. There is only one reason this has happened.... he sees that someone is willing to make time for him and do things of interest with him. I wish I could do even more... but, I cannot undermind his parents role of authority... no matter how badly they do it. Hope it all comes out in the wash someday.
Is there a laddy in your sphere of influence, where you can make a difference? Look for one and be a mentor too.
Victor on 03/23/2005 10:55:48
I completely agree with the figures you stated gearhead.. and probably also say that these are just the official figures the unrecorded figues of crime in india are much higher.. and the only thing to blame is the socio - economic structure again..
Its not a debate of countries.. its about weapons..
India is way back in terms of education and per capita income.. people here kill for a few hundred dollars.. the kind of population here is mind boggling and more than 60% of india lives below the poverty line..
hehe.. here people even kill with bare hands..
The problem lies deep under.. and if there were guns available easily can u imagine the increase in number of killings..??
Thats why I oppose easy arms distribution and ownership..
Its a problem all over the world.. and if the most developed country in this world learns its responsibilities then others are sure to follow..
I suggest that the US shud set an example for the rest of the world..
Peace is the Way to progress..
Victor...
UKinstaller on 03/23/2005 11:18:59
well louisville, ky doesn't make the national news very often. just last month, a man robbing a convenience store here in louisville shot the UNARMED clerk to death, after he was given the money, and then shot two customers. before he left, he shot a nine year old girl in the face, both hands, and both feet. so your question of "why would someone want to shoot at you if you didn't do anything to them" is absolute garbage. it's the exact definition of armed robbery. do you think that the nine year old girl had "beef" with the robber?? i doubt it.
i don't own a gun, but i live in the middle of nowhere and have no need for one. but if i lived in downtown louisville, you can bet your ass i would carry a gun. people rob you for looking at them. i'm not going to stand by and let someone rob me. apparently, people have previously supported my beliefs, because there happens to be a right to bear arms in the american constitution. and that was before crackheads would kill you for a buck.
but whatever. that's just me.
-UK
swez on 03/23/2005 11:23:00
Victor,
What might work well in one part of the world, may not work at all in other parts of the world. This is true, even within differing communities in the USA. It more about protecting ourselves from the undesirable elements in society.
Fact: Countries that are poor and have been poor for many years, work together for a common good of the community. Their lifestyles are centered around the community and all members work together for same.
In socio-economic classes where there are a small portion of very wealthy people that call the shots and the rest are poor and down-trodden, the only way out of poverty for many, is to create fair employment opportunities where others can improve their lot in life.
However, there are people who are too lazy to work and willing to take what they want by force. This is where the problem gets out of control. It's not a gun that is the problem... the problem is who is toting them and what their intentions are in use of same.
Also, those who desire opportunities to get ahead, but have little means to reach that goal, they become frustrated and look for less desireable means to make ends meet.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 03/23/2005 13:14:28
I like to play devil's Advocate. 50% of all shootings are done with the presence of alcohol. Should we eliminate booze?
The real problem is that there is no respect for life with kids today. It starts with respect for their parents. In my day (WAAAAAY long ago) I would never back talk my parents or teachers unless I needed a good swift kick in the arse.
Victor on 03/23/2005 15:20:46
lol.. I dont do that now either.. Can not back talk parents...
alanjlamore on 03/23/2005 16:43:33
I just wanted to thow out my oppinion here since this is (and always has been) a controvercial topic.
I agree, to a point, that the parents have some responsibility, BUT, by age 14, 15, 16 these kids know right from wrong. They might not fully understand the consequenses of their actions, but I think if the crime is severe enough, they should be tried as adults and should also share the bulk of the responsibility. They know they are doing something wrong, they just think they can get away with it.
About guns, just because someone uses something to kill someone else, doesn't mean that if that weapon wasn't available (guns in this case) doesn't mean they won't find something else to kill with.
A kid can steal a car and drive it through the school yard during recess and have the same amount of devastation as shooting a gun in a crowd.
Criminals will always find a way to get guns, legal or not. I just don't see any point in dissarming the more responsible citizens.
Banning guns would only prevent the deaths that are caused by accidental shootings, but I'd rather be responsible for my own actions, then have the government "protect" me from myself.
There's a risk in driving a car to work that I take 5 days a week. The number of deaths associated with car accidents is pretty high. I can choose a less convenient, but more safe option of walking to work, but I weigh the risks to the benefits and choose to drive.
I wouldn't want the govenment saying that driving is too dangerous and banning the use of private vehicles...
Also see the need of reviewing the Arms law in the USA.
Replies (20)
ttocs on 03/22/2005 13:17:19
thankyou from so far off.
I think I am probably one of the few that agree with you, unfortunatly.... But as it is, it is every americans god given right to be able to carry a gun that can sqeeze off 900 rounds per min. How do you get buy without one????
gearhead on 03/22/2005 14:17:28
There's a good chance that the guns used in this incident belonged to a police officer. How would a stricter gun ownership have prevented this?
UKinstaller on 03/22/2005 15:11:09
yeah it's not like we just give guns to people. if we had a no arms law, the person that has them illegally will win every time.
-UK
MrBrownstone on 03/22/2005 16:15:44
The real problem here is that the kid had no value of life. His or anyone else's.
It seems that the breakdown in the family is the main cause of inappropriate behavior. For some reason, kids from a broken home need to act out--feel the missing parent isn't listening?
This kid's Dad took his own life 4 years ago, and his mother was in a nursing home due to a car accident. Basically, his only parental figure was his grandparent and his girlfriend (not the grandma).
It's truly sad that this kid was on a 'watch' list, forced to be schooled from home due to behaviorial issues. He wasn't even a part of the school anymore, but was so damaged by the way he was ostracized by other students, he felt the need to go back and take vengence.
For those of you listening with school-aged friends and relatives, there IS life after high school. Being a tee-pee creeper in a white bread with mayonnaise school, I was subject to modest ridicule..in part due to my own behavior. It's just that we settled it with fists, man to man. Toe to toe. Not "..I'll just shoot at defenseless people because I'm a coward and don't feel I measure up to other people" Why not just ignore everybody, and leave town??? Get a GED? Heck, since High School, I only regularly talk to 1 person in my graduating class!!!
I guess the main breakdown here is that the kid was acting out. The 'neo-Nazi' label is merely a social rejection action. When you are told you didn' t make the cheerleading team, you can either try harder next time, or swear off cheerleading. This kid, turned on the cheerleaders...figuratively.
Where this can be solved is when kids feel that they are good for nothing, they do things that mimic their feelings. He felt he needed to be distructive, and didn't have an outlet for his feelings.
I don't know how many of you kids feel unwanted or unappreciated by your parents or step-parents, but I can tell you, you don't win by this type of behavior. You lose. Your life, or your freedom for the next 25 to life. Why not just serve a 1 or 2 year sentence of being miserable, and take control of your life when you are 18?
Ever notice there are no college shootings? Sounds like if you can just get through high school, your life is worth living.
MrBrownstone on 03/22/2005 16:21:08
PS
This is the 2nd school shooting in Minnesota in 18 months. Kinda makes that age old stereotype of 'inner city' schools are dangerous invalidated. First time in 6 or 7 years a NON white person killed someone in school.
Ironically, all the shootings in Paducah & Columbine (and the other one in MN) were all whitey. Time to take care of ALL children like they are our own. You can either punish, or inspire these kids. Punishment only works if they agree that they deserve what they are getting. Inspire them, then show them the consequences of their actions when they agree to them.
These kids are the biggest 3 year olds on the planet, not hardened criminals.
ttocs on 03/22/2005 17:37:45
How many of these situations happen in the UK? What are the gun laws there?
I was a runt in high school. When I graduated I was a little over 5 ft, right around 100lbs. I too was picked on more then I thought was needed, but I will not say today that I didn't have a little bit comming for the way I acted. I HATED HIGH SCHOOL! I had a good group of friends that I do still talk to regularly today, but we certainly were not the kewl crowd if there is such a thing. After high school I bounced around a while(while eventually growning to nearly 6ft, and 180lbs) and eventually found my way to where I am now. I think high school is supposed to suck, and I am greatfull that it did... I recently went back to my 10yr reunion and had a great time. All the kids that used to pick on me looked 10yrs older then me, were working nasty jobs, and just did not look happy. I think they got use to having it easy in HS, and did not know what to do when they got out and realized that there is no longer a cool crowd that they could belong to....
I certainly am not telling people to make sure HS sucks for someone else. I would love for people to taste their own words and know how it feels to be that person.
uochronos on 03/22/2005 20:57:39
i persoanly think better value(not stricter but better one) and better control of guns is required. Not the removal of weapons from the population this wouldnt do any good... the criminals are the ones that we want to take the guns away from right? well i hate to tell you this but even if guns where banned to an extent it would not stop a criminal from buying one..
i can make a few calls and get a fuklly auto AK 47 thats not a legal wepon to have but for the right amount you cang et anything you want in any country you are in...
i personaly have several guns and you know what when i'm not using them for target shooting they are in a locked safe. its not guns that kill people its stupid people who kill people... never once have i seen somone accidently shot if you where handling the wepon right it would not have happened... simply put maybe if people stoped working 60hours a week and not teaching there children right from wrong this wouldnt happen...
also i got the living hell beat out of me at school on a regular basis from 4th-8th grade and never once did i think oh i should get my dads 9mm and kill some people. why? because i was taught right from wrong and gun saftey at a young age...
just my 2 cents...
Chronos
Needasystem on 03/22/2005 21:15:16
I have a tendancy to blame the parents in any situation like this (unlike most idiots who blame society and video games) If the parents watch over their kids, and if their kids think their parents are "overprotective" then the parents are doing a good job. I'm 17, there are guns in my house, but if I wanted to go and shoot someone, I wouldnt be able to do it, because I have no access to guns, they are all kept in a locked safe, like they should be, and only my dad knows the combination to it. If the parents do their job, they should be able to tell when their child is going to go crazy and shoot up a bunch of kids at school. People blame the schools and blame society, but guess what, high school sucked 30 years ago, and people didnt go shoot up their cafeteria, and back then all the kids probably had their own gun since they were 10. People are always looking to shift the responsibility on to someone else, and parents need to step up and do their job.
Victor on 03/22/2005 23:03:21
I seem to agree with all of you there..
The social structure of the american society where the kids are brought up is very strange.. (GENERALLY) Both the parents are working, they dont have much time to attend to theirs kids emotional needs.
Also I would say that.. not just a kid but no common man needs to have a gun. Its a weapon either the police can have it by law or the criminals can have it for breaking the law.. there is no need for a common man to carry a gun.Or a sportsman can own a gun.
A country like India where there is more poverty than the US, Where there is a higher rate of illiteracy, whose population is 3 times that of the US and not a single incidence like this has ever happened...The reason, = Better family bonding , stricter arms law, costly arms and ammunition.
A common man has many better things to do then buy a gun and carry it around.. If anyone in India has a gun( even officially )then he is considered to be of a notorious character and not to make friends with or mess with guy..
A gun has no place in the Indian society, only anti-social elements ( even the police is considered anti-social, hehe ) go around with a weapon..
Victor...
UKinstaller on 03/23/2005 00:37:00
that's crap. what's wrong with someone owning a gun to protect themselves?? do you expect us horrible americans to sit back and let someone shoot at us and have nothing in return?? just curious.
-UK
Victor on 03/23/2005 02:23:56
He he he .. thats what i really wonder about americans..( no offence ) but why do u have this great feeling of insecurity in you...??
We in India feel more secure when we know that the next person we meet does not have a gun.. lol.. If i know that every other person i meet is gonna have a gun then i would really feel very insecure..
Why would someone shoot at you if you have done no offence to them or done nothing wrong to anyone.. ???
How many times is a Gun used for self defence...?? Also even if it is used for self defence what does a Gun ultimately do.. HURT - HARM - KILL .. thats all a gun can do..
How many times does a gun owner face danger from his own weapon.. ever wondered that.. there are so many cases when a thief or an intruder uses you own gun to harm you..
It is a weapon, and a weapon does not know who it is shooting at.. its ONLY job is to KILL.. and it does that job blindly..
With the amount of frustration creeping into the minds of young common people a gun is the last thing you would want to give them.
This is what a common man back here in India feels about guns..
Bullet for a bullet is no way to bring peace.. or keep your self secure.. with so many people around you carrying guns it becomes practically impossible to know and control the minds of frustrated people.. and the outcome is accidents like Minnesota Shoot out..
Ever wondered why there is a gun in hands of youngsters insted of a pen..??
The whole socio - economic structure of a society combined with law is responsible for such events...
Give it a thought..
Victor...
gearhead on 03/23/2005 09:26:10
Based on sheer numbers, India is ranked #1 in murders worlwide. The U.S. is ranked #6. Based on per capita, the U.S. is ranked #24 (.04 per 1000 people) and India is ranked #27 (.03 per 1000 people). While guns may not be the cause, India's murder totals are still 300% higher than the U.S. ,37,170 vs. 12,658 (1999). So, what weapon should be outlawed in India to curb their murder rate? Knives, clubs, or hands?
ttocs on 03/23/2005 09:35:59
I agree victor. Last time I had check louisville KY had not been attacked, I see no need for something to return fire with. I also agree that unless you are military, cop, criminal or sportsman that you have no need for a gun. There is NO need for ANYONE except a crook er cop er military to have a full auto gun. I own a house and have considered a small handgun to keep around the house, "in case of". I would be more apt to invest in a home security network...
I also agree that any gunowner should have it properly locked up, and should educate his kids, but I would say the same about any car owner as well.
i think I see victors side better, but lets make sure we keep this clean and that no one gets upset. I am certainly not meaning to insult anyone, as I am sure is the case with everyone else. Speak your opinion and listen to ours, don't go away mad, there is no need....
swez on 03/23/2005 10:32:24
My 2 cents... guns are very much apart of our American heritage. Our founding fathers thought it best to allow all people who want guns, the right to have them. Guns are just tools in the hands of properly trained persons.
I personally do not own a gun, see no need for one at the moment either. However, if I was in a line of work or traveled regularly to some of the rougher parts of Detroit, packing a "thug stopper" would be an option I would consider. I would take gun safety classes and other self-defence measures to disable a potential perp with a weapon. The old adage... " A stong offensive position is better than a weak defensive strategy".
Kids.... they are a product of our constantly morphing society. In the 50's, 60's, & 70's, most families had stay at home moms and the bread winner made enough to support the family adequately. In today's economy, we have exchanged strong family ties and values for get all the toys and fun stuff we can.
Often, both parents work and have bought into the lie that MORE STUFF is better. That leaves our kids in a very vulnerable position. Latch key kids at home for hours w/o any adult supervision can lead to all kinds of undetected problems. (Teenage sex, drugs, alcoholism and other undesireable behaviors) When we have more disposable income, we tend to buy Jenny or Lenny stuff they don't need, get bored with quickly, and the cycle repeats itself adnausium. I see it every day in my little neighborhood.
This underminds the bonds that need to take place in the family stucture. Guys, take your son fishing, bowling, golfing, hunting, camping, boating. Teach him to be skilled with his head and his hands in many areas. Mom's have the same role with their girls. Teach them to become women. Have them help out with cooking, cleaning, shopping, crafting, tennis, gardening or whatever.... just make time for them and listen as they talk about what is going on in the childs' life.
We single guys can help as well. Do we know any single Moms who have to work to support the family? We can have a huge impact on those kids too. Talk with them, do things together and show them a positive role model of what it looks like to be a responsible male figure. Some may not get the conversations at first, but they will "catch" what they see others doing. Just hanging out together, doing a project or taking a bike ride together, can make a huge difference if we are consistant with them.
Finally, to parents... know who your kids hang out with. These kids have more influence over them than we do. (peer pressure) Get to know their parents and teachers too. This will help us to remain connected to our kids. Monitor their TV and gaming habits. The crap they see on TV, has a very large impact on how they view the world. If we get them involved in character building activities like sports, shop skills, camping and wilderness training, they will become accustom to team based activities and how to bond with other like minded people. Isolation, depression, anti-social behaviors and lots of peer pressure, can ruin a kid well before he/she turns 16.
Swez
PS OK, that was more than 2 cents worth, but this is what I am very concerned about. I have a neighbor with a 14 year old boy. His Mom works 60-75 hours a week. His Dad owns a small business. Neither one of them are consistant with how they raise this youngster. He gets every toy, game, cell phone, computer and other gizzmos under the sun. His parents often swear at him and he gets mouthy back. I see a steady parade of young dudes and a few girls coming over to hang out on the street corners. Most of them are pretty rough looking/talking too.
He does play play street hockey, likes tinkering with mechanical things and is actually a pretty bright kid. But, his parents are ruining his sense of responsibilities. He has none. They abdicate their parental roles to other neighborhood kids.
I have stepped in on many occassions to say... hey bud, bring your project over to my garage and let's see what we can build together. We used to go bike riding a lot and I'd take him for ice cream too. It's not enough... but it is an opportunity for him to learn new skills, gain confidence in his abilities and vent his feelings on matters at home.
I listen, offer suggestions that might change his attitudes and hopefully, show him what a good male role model looks like. He shows great respect for my mentoring and I have noted some positive changes. There is only one reason this has happened.... he sees that someone is willing to make time for him and do things of interest with him. I wish I could do even more... but, I cannot undermind his parents role of authority... no matter how badly they do it. Hope it all comes out in the wash someday.
Is there a laddy in your sphere of influence, where you can make a difference? Look for one and be a mentor too.
Victor on 03/23/2005 10:55:48
I completely agree with the figures you stated gearhead.. and probably also say that these are just the official figures the unrecorded figues of crime in india are much higher.. and the only thing to blame is the socio - economic structure again..
Its not a debate of countries.. its about weapons..
India is way back in terms of education and per capita income.. people here kill for a few hundred dollars.. the kind of population here is mind boggling and more than 60% of india lives below the poverty line..
hehe.. here people even kill with bare hands..
The problem lies deep under.. and if there were guns available easily can u imagine the increase in number of killings..??
Thats why I oppose easy arms distribution and ownership..
Its a problem all over the world.. and if the most developed country in this world learns its responsibilities then others are sure to follow..
I suggest that the US shud set an example for the rest of the world..
Peace is the Way to progress..
Victor...
UKinstaller on 03/23/2005 11:18:59
well louisville, ky doesn't make the national news very often. just last month, a man robbing a convenience store here in louisville shot the UNARMED clerk to death, after he was given the money, and then shot two customers. before he left, he shot a nine year old girl in the face, both hands, and both feet. so your question of "why would someone want to shoot at you if you didn't do anything to them" is absolute garbage. it's the exact definition of armed robbery. do you think that the nine year old girl had "beef" with the robber?? i doubt it.
i don't own a gun, but i live in the middle of nowhere and have no need for one. but if i lived in downtown louisville, you can bet your ass i would carry a gun. people rob you for looking at them. i'm not going to stand by and let someone rob me. apparently, people have previously supported my beliefs, because there happens to be a right to bear arms in the american constitution. and that was before crackheads would kill you for a buck.
but whatever. that's just me.
-UK
swez on 03/23/2005 11:23:00
Victor,
What might work well in one part of the world, may not work at all in other parts of the world. This is true, even within differing communities in the USA. It more about protecting ourselves from the undesirable elements in society.
Fact: Countries that are poor and have been poor for many years, work together for a common good of the community. Their lifestyles are centered around the community and all members work together for same.
In socio-economic classes where there are a small portion of very wealthy people that call the shots and the rest are poor and down-trodden, the only way out of poverty for many, is to create fair employment opportunities where others can improve their lot in life.
However, there are people who are too lazy to work and willing to take what they want by force. This is where the problem gets out of control. It's not a gun that is the problem... the problem is who is toting them and what their intentions are in use of same.
Also, those who desire opportunities to get ahead, but have little means to reach that goal, they become frustrated and look for less desireable means to make ends meet.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 03/23/2005 13:14:28
I like to play devil's Advocate. 50% of all shootings are done with the presence of alcohol. Should we eliminate booze?
The real problem is that there is no respect for life with kids today. It starts with respect for their parents. In my day (WAAAAAY long ago) I would never back talk my parents or teachers unless I needed a good swift kick in the arse.
Victor on 03/23/2005 15:20:46
lol.. I dont do that now either.. Can not back talk parents...
alanjlamore on 03/23/2005 16:43:33
I just wanted to thow out my oppinion here since this is (and always has been) a controvercial topic.
I agree, to a point, that the parents have some responsibility, BUT, by age 14, 15, 16 these kids know right from wrong. They might not fully understand the consequenses of their actions, but I think if the crime is severe enough, they should be tried as adults and should also share the bulk of the responsibility. They know they are doing something wrong, they just think they can get away with it.
About guns, just because someone uses something to kill someone else, doesn't mean that if that weapon wasn't available (guns in this case) doesn't mean they won't find something else to kill with.
A kid can steal a car and drive it through the school yard during recess and have the same amount of devastation as shooting a gun in a crowd.
Criminals will always find a way to get guns, legal or not. I just don't see any point in dissarming the more responsible citizens.
Banning guns would only prevent the deaths that are caused by accidental shootings, but I'd rather be responsible for my own actions, then have the government "protect" me from myself.
There's a risk in driving a car to work that I take 5 days a week. The number of deaths associated with car accidents is pretty high. I can choose a less convenient, but more safe option of walking to work, but I weigh the risks to the benefits and choose to drive.
I wouldn't want the govenment saying that driving is too dangerous and banning the use of private vehicles...
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
