i have a jl e4300 FOUR channel amp connected to my car. On the left side i connected the front 3 speakers in series. On the right side i connected only the 6" door speakers (this side sounds fine). The ones i connected in series are barley audible unless i really turn up the volume and even then its only treble (and obviously sounds like something is wrong). These are the factory infinity speaker that come with the car.
As far as i know i connected them properly and i noticed a little capacitor or resistor on the tweeter, is that affecting something?
And i did check the polarity of the speakers using a battery but on the tweeter i couldnt b/c it would make a sound but the movement was so minute that i coulnt tell if it was pushing in or out. so i guessed.
Thanks any advice while its still the weekend would be appreciated.
Replies (28)
montego_27 on 03/19/2005 07:44:56
Are you sure you wired the 3 speakers in "series"? This will increase you resistance greatly.Check out this link it will explain series wiring vs. parallel wiring.
http://www.termpro.com/articles/spkrz.html
ttocs on 03/19/2005 09:12:03
if you want the speakers, all the speakers, to sound the same they have to be wired the same. By wiring them in series, the amp puts out less pwr as you have increased the resistance(impedence or ohm value), and now that pwr is shared between 3 speakers.
Tell us what kind of car, equip, ect, and we can help.
swez on 03/19/2005 12:22:23
Agreed... may not be a good idea as wired now. We need additional info on your front speaker system components and then can help you wire them most efficiently.
Too bad you did not bring the issues to the forum before you wired as now you may have a lot more work to do over again. That's why we are here... to help folks do it well the first try. It's OK to ask for help before diving in. That can save lots of gessing, getting it wrong or damaging your gear.
Those caps on the tweeters mentioned are there to block low frequencies to small tweeter that cannot handle lower frequencies. The value of the cap, coupled with the ohmic load of the tweeter, determines the roll off charateristics of a High Pass Filter. If we change the ohmic load, the filter characteristics will change as well.
Swez SMILE
PS Please avoid walking in the swamps of "Gee... wonder what will happen if I do this or that"... there are alligators you don't want to tangle with in the swamp. We all need a guide to get us through unfamiliar waters.
sanbas on 03/19/2005 12:31:52
its a 2001 Mitsubishi Diamante LS w/Factory Infinity system which has an external amp which i am replacing with the JL e4300.
yeah you are right, I thought i had it all figured out when i started wiring it but i guess not. The door panel is still out and also the back seat so i can change it around with not much difficulty.
Here is some more info:
I measured the rear 6x9 and the front 6" door speakers and they were both 3 ohms so i assumed the tweeter and the 3" dash speaker was also 3 ohm.
From my reading i figured that i can go either series and it will be (3+3+3=9 ohms impedence) or parallel with (1/3+1/3+1/3=1 ohm). Now on the jl audio website i cant find where it says what ohm its stable at so i didnt want to take a chance and wire it parallel SO i just did it in series.
Again these are the factory infinty speakers (i connected the 6" and an aftermarket infinity 63i kappa speaker to the rear channels to quickly see which sounds better, i think the stock ones sounded better). And i am using the JL e4300 4-channel amp.
If any other info needed please let me know. I will be checking this thread atleast 20 times today. THANKSSS
sanbas on 03/19/2005 13:48:27
man ****...i have a more urgent problem for the time being. I still need the answer to the above questions though.
I just bought a new (literally 1 week old) battery cuz my last one died and now this one is dead too now. Right now i have the amp connected this way: Red 4 gauge power wire with 40 amp inline fuse to amp and the blue turn on lead going to fuse box to windshield washer fuse using a fuse tap. I am pretty sure that that fuse is a switched fuse, does it matter which blade i put it on on the fuse?
thanks
any ideas why the battery keeps dying on me?
swez on 03/19/2005 18:56:14
Urgent matter first...
Probably have the REM powering the amp at all times and never shuts off. Since you have a stock HU, you have to get REM off an ACC/IGN circuit in fuse panel. It is only powered when key is in ACC or IGN/Run modes. Fuse that line at 1-3A.
As for speaker wiring, think ya need some hands on help here. Since this system uses a powered amp already, need to disable that amp system and get audio feeds from HU with a conversion harness. These are more complex systems than non-powered systems. Maybe you can drop by a local shop and arrange a house call. Rent a tech, pay him cash and allow skilled hands to do this phase of the job with/for you.
Swez
sanbas on 03/19/2005 19:43:08
well i checked it out and this is how it is.
When the car is @ the "ACC," "ON," or on the "START" position the power light for the amp comes on. Then i pull the key out the the power light turns off. SO THAT PART SEEMS FINE TO ME. BUT, Well this is stupid of me but i did notice that I had one of the dome lights on, hopefully thats all it was, but being a new battery it shouldnt have died over night from one dome light, should it? Ill drive it around tonight and see how it starts tomorrow. I will get a fuse and put it on that turn-on wire. THANKS for the help on this question.
I already have the conversion harness from METRA, I would like for taking it to a shop to be a last last resort. Since i have just began and already have all the wiring done i would hate to go now without trying a few things.
Like i said i feel like i am very close to being done, just need to get some advice on the low speaker sound situation. and if worse comes to worse, ill just hook up the one 6" speaker on the fronts and listen to music that way for now :-( or try the 6" and dash speaker in series and leave the tweeter out of the loop.
THANKS
swez on 03/20/2005 09:27:39
A dome light can kill a fresh battery in time. How long it will take? Depends on the BAT charge state and wattage drawn from a load. However, sounds like the REM wiring is OK... good!
As for wiring speakers to amp, do you have a 2 element speaker system or 3? A true 3-way would be a midbass, midrange and tweeter. A 2-way would be comprised of a midrange and tweeter w/ crossover filter on tweet. The tweet and midrange are usually wired in parallel to each other. Then a wire set back to the amp channel to power them. The filter has a variable impedance (based on frequency) and help maintain a stable ohmic load to the amp.
When using a 3-way Comp system, need an advanced crossover with impedance matching ability. Just 1 wire set from amp to input of crossover, then crossover outputs to each speaker element in the system. This is how we maintain a constant 4 ohm load to amp.
Are you planning to run this 4 channel amp as full range to all 4 speaker sets or use the rear amp channels for sub power?
Swez
sanbas on 03/20/2005 13:48:03
yeah i think it was the battery, b/c the car started back up without any problems today, but I d/c the turn-on wire for now also, just incase.
I guess what i have would be a 3-element speaker system if you mean by element the number of speaker on the front right or left side. I took some pics, they will be better then me trying to explain:
Door 6" speaker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/frontdoorspeaker001.jpg
Front view of 6" speaker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/DiaSpeakers016.jpg
Dash 3" speaker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/Dashspeaker012.jpg
Tweeter:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/tweeter001.jpg
--------------------------
As for running it at full range or use the rear channel for sub power:
When I had both rear 6x9s connected and the front right 6.5" speaker only when running it at fullrange it sounded much better than using the rear channel (lowpass filter on) for the 6x9 for bass only. I guess i would have to have all the other front speakers working to answer that for sure.
P.S. i dont have a sub yet, i was planning on using the 6x9s for bass FOR NOW (but like i said when i had the rear channel set for lowpass it didtn sound as good as when I turned the rear filter off and it plays all the notes not just bass), i plan on getting another amp along with subs LATER (dont know when).
Sorry if my explainations are long and confusing, I am just getting into this stuff.
swez on 03/20/2005 17:41:16
OK, the pics helped a lot. You have a 3-way system brewing here. Adding subs later, will make it a 4-way system.
What you will need to pull this off properly, is a pair of 3-way passive crossovers. The crossovers will allocate highs/mids/lows to the proper speaker elements, at proper crossover points.
Typical 3-way crossover:
Midbass = 60 - 300 Hz
Midrange = 300 - ~5,000 Hz
Highs = 5,000 Hz and up
We need to discuss this in a more timely manner that posts on this forum. I use Yahoo IM (swezdp) or Skype (swezdp) for these things. Both services are free, can submit pics, links and diagrams with either service. All you need is audio and a microphone to use these programs efficiently. Skype.com is excellent for audio quality and all other features noted.
Swez
sanbas on 03/20/2005 17:51:29
ok i have yahoo messenger and aim messenter...ill long on to yahoo and see if you are available when i get a chance.
swez on 03/20/2005 20:06:37
Good, Yahoo IM is OK for typing and poor at voice communications. Skype is superior quality audio and great search capability as well. We will be surfing the net a lot, looking at possible 3-way passive crossovers to pull the system together.
Do you have any budget constraints here? Some decent crossovers are available off E-bay and better prices too. However, selections are often limited and you need an account to buy and the savvy to get what is needed at the best possible prices.
The other route would be to shop key e-tailers and see what is avialable for your system. We can discuss the options and then take steps based on your specific needs and budget.
When we get this right, you will be astounded as to how good the new system can sound. It takes time, some careful shopping and a few extra gizzmos to make all this come together. Then, we can look into subs and amp options.
Swez
ttocs on 03/21/2005 11:47:42
don't forget swez that with the speakers being at 3 ohms, your normal 4ohm speaker crossover will have different x-over points.
Since we are woking with factory speakers, I would consider using a 2 way x-over and maybe some caps for the tweets.
I would measure the impedence of the tweets however as we are still going on the assumption that the tweets are 3 ohms. Infinity likes to make things hard and we all know what happens when we assume.....
sanbas on 03/21/2005 15:12:45
ah crossovers! I thought a speaker was a speaker, shouldnt it still make the sound? If i have to get crossovers to make it work, ill just connect the 6" speaker then, b/c i'd rather buy some new components w/crossover rather than buying crossovers for these stock speakers unless they are filthy cheap....my break is over but ill be on yahoo later today after work seeing if you are online.
thanks
ttocs on 03/21/2005 15:26:49
they will work with out crossovers, but not as well and probably not at the level you would like them to be at.
sanbas on 03/21/2005 22:01:45
well I will be checking from time to time to see if you get on yahoo.
And its good to know that they will work w/o the crossover...if by "not as well" you mean it can be better but it will sound ok without them I am ok with that for now. Right now all i want is for the speakers to play music so i can start putting the door panels back on...it looks like a storm inside my car right now.
swez on 03/22/2005 08:22:45
Crossovers are used to allocate specific frequency bands to each speaker connected to it. A crossover can be as simple as a capacitor or coil, or very complex with many filtering devices. The complex xovers also help match the speaker ohnic loads to protect the amp.
The most basic crossover needed here, is one to protect the tweeter. (need to block lows and mids) I would suggest that you do some additional reading and research before diving into an advanced install. For now, use the door mount speakers you have. Hold off on using the 3" midrange until you have a better understanding on how 3-way crossovers work and a budget to buy quality parts.
http://www.bcae1.com
This site has many great tuitorials, diagrams and design tools in it. Just read as you have time and learn what applies to your needs. Some of the info is pretty deep for a beginner, but the parts you need to know are pretty straight up.
Swez
PS Put your car back together and enjoy the new amp for now. More learning is needed before diving into a more complex install.
sanbas on 03/23/2005 22:16:58
well this weekend I am gonna give it a final try and if the sould is still low then i'll just hook up the front left and right 6" and the 2 rear 6x9s and live with it.
But first I am gonna unhook all the 3 of the speakers from the front Left and put them next to the amp in the trunk and wire them in series, then parallel and if it still doesnt work then I am gonna try it with only the 6" and the 3" eliminating the tweeter, if that doesnt work then I'll give up and just only the 6"
Thanks for all the help esp. swez!!!
swez on 03/24/2005 17:52:18
What you will really find out, the 6" is needed, a tweeter is needed and the 3" can be employed as a decent midrange. The only thing needed for this 3-way system is a good passive crossover. With the right crossover, all 3 speakers can be used and have a perfect impedance match to your amp. (4 ohms)
Also, if you eliminated the tweeter and just used the 6" door speaker, would have only MB/MR signals and no highs. Poor imaging and clarity that way. Better to go with the 6" door spkr and add a good tweet. The tweet will need a passive cap to block lows. What value cap to use? Depends on the tweeter specs you have.
Swez
sanbas on 03/27/2005 00:51:09
Well I got a chance to mess with it this weekend...I took all the speakers (3 out and put em in the trunk next to the amp and connected them to Ch 1 and had all the other 3 channels disconnected.
When i had all 3 in series the sound once again was really low. Then i Took the Tweeter out and the sound out of the 6" and 3" worked fine.
So for now I am taking the tweeter out and just using the 6" and 3" up front on both sides. As for highs, the 3" seems to be doing a good job at that, the e4300 amp has highpass settings for the front channels so I have that adjusted and it sounds good to me.
Eventually I will get a set of components (probably MB Quart...i have read a lot of good things about them) and then it will be perfect, in the meantime I am gonna enjoy this setup.
THANKS TO ALL THE GUYS WITH THERE ADVICE!!! great people
montego_27 on 03/27/2005 06:12:56
I have a suggestion here.Swez has repeatedly tried to tell you what to do here, all very good suggestions.(He doesn't give out many bad ones) but you still seem intent on doing something else.Now at this last post, you're right back to where you started 21 posts ago, trying to wire these three speakers in "series"! What's up? It's almost frustrating following this thread. Try this.
Here's a very cheap 3-way crossover:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14977&item=5763150417&rd=1
It's like $15 bucks and $6 bucks shipping
Check it out. Or one similar to it. It's a very low end X- over but it will give you some idea about setting up crossovers and what they can do.
One final thought.. When you're ready to step up to a good set of components,try to rethink the MB Quart thing. Incredibly overpriced.
Especially when you have CDT's out there for less money that just beat the snot out of the Quarts. Once again, that's just my honest opinion.But you know what they say about opinions....
swez on 03/27/2005 13:42:38
Agreed, it is frustrating to take one by the hand, walk them through the technical steps and then... they scrap my info and do what they want, even though they know nothing on the subject. Give me a break!
I guess some folks are just destined to be boneheads, regardless of when the facts are staring them in the face. I cannot work well with those who refuse to follow very simple instructions. Hey, I tried my best. You are on your own friend, as far as my inputs are considered.
Good luck and hope you don't mess up your gear,
Swez
PS Look, you seem like a polite guy... we appreciate that. However, when people come to a tech forum for help and disregard the collective knowledge they are given, it makes techs not wish to spend too much time helping those who just won't listen. Maybe you did not understand the suggestions and need some simplification. If that is the case, we can try one more go at things.
However, if there are other reasons that advice was ignored.... I am clueless and need some input to go any further on this subject. Your call mate!
Victor on 03/27/2005 15:54:24
lol... another one there swez... hehe
sanbas on 03/27/2005 17:40:57
man sooorry...i wouldnt say i am back where i started. Now the sound is coming fine out of the speakers so i did make progress. Could it be better with the crossovers...yeah maybe i have no idea, as you all could probably tell this is my first time doing this.
I will go ahead and purchase those pyramid x-overs and give them a try and see what difference it makes.
BTW I didnt completely ignore what SWEZ said about crossovers, I said that I was gonna purchase some component sets later down the line that come with their own crossovers and if i purchase some now i wouldnt have any use for them later, so i would save money. anyways i guess since there is such a strong response that i sould get some now i will go ahead and buy them.
Man this is the response i get for giving thanks, I dont want to see what happens when someone acts like an ass. (which i dont think i did)
Oh well...
swez on 03/28/2005 12:12:06
Dear Sanbas,
I called you out on this matter as we Golds too often get folks who post "so many" questions due to lack of knowledge. We spend a good deal of time and care to guide those who ask for help.
However, when someone gets adequate solutions and seems not to follow the plan, it's like a slap in the face to the guys that are doing all the research to guide one through, and they (seemingly) ignore the prescribed solutions.
FYI, have been in audio for more than 30 years. I know what works and why. I give our readers the best information I have available and it's free to all. So, Am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that the strategy presented has lead to a new level of understanding and what to do next. But some of the previous posts seem to indicate otherwise. That's why I threw out the yellow flag.
Back to the issue, a quality 3-way crossover will allow you to use all 3 drivers in a well matched impedance load to the amp. That's what a well designed crossover is designed to do. It will work and do it well if you choose good speaker components and do the install of same.
The 3-way crossovers noted: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14977&item=5763150417&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
are adequate and low cost. The best way to mount them is under the dash or seats. It would be a very good idea to make a small enclosure for them as the input/output leads are exposed. If you box them, them... then they can be mounted under the dash/seats safely.
Just note these crossovers are designed for 4 and 8 ohm driver usage. Will want to use the 4 ohm connections as most car audio speakers are 4 ohms.
Hope that helps and let's move forward, not backwards,
Swez
sanbas on 03/29/2005 20:48:45
well if you arent just sick and tired of me, how about this one:
http://www.electronicheadquarters.com/detail_id100235.aspx
the frequency range is wider, so i was thinking it would be better, plus it is enclosed so i dont have to worry about covering them up.
AND since they are all 4 ohms, will it be ok to use with my 3 ohm speakers...any negative effects possible?
thanks
swez on 03/29/2005 21:26:55
No, I am not tired of responding... just trying to stay on track is all. We are bigger than that right?
The x-overs noted are adequate, but the low end cutoff point is a bit low for MB drivers. (20-80 Hz., is more for subs) Can compensate for this if the amp used, has a HPF that you can be set to 60-80 Hz.
Also, even though the DC resistance measurements of your speakers are near 3 ohms, that is normal. The nominal "impedance" (AC resistance) is going to be very close to 4 ohms. The crossover will help the amp see a 4 ohm "nominal" load.
This xover should work fine for a 3-way system as discussed before.
Swez
PS If I came across a bit harsh, did not mean to be. Am going through some "rough stuff" right now and don't mean to take it out on you/others. If I was offensive, forgive me as I am only human. GRIN and bare it I guess? PMS?
ttocs on 03/30/2005 13:00:59
understand that crossover do get warm and need air to cool. I have seem them melted when they were covered up too much....
As far as i know i connected them properly and i noticed a little capacitor or resistor on the tweeter, is that affecting something?
And i did check the polarity of the speakers using a battery but on the tweeter i couldnt b/c it would make a sound but the movement was so minute that i coulnt tell if it was pushing in or out. so i guessed.
Thanks any advice while its still the weekend would be appreciated.
Replies (28)
montego_27 on 03/19/2005 07:44:56
Are you sure you wired the 3 speakers in "series"? This will increase you resistance greatly.Check out this link it will explain series wiring vs. parallel wiring.
http://www.termpro.com/articles/spkrz.html
ttocs on 03/19/2005 09:12:03
if you want the speakers, all the speakers, to sound the same they have to be wired the same. By wiring them in series, the amp puts out less pwr as you have increased the resistance(impedence or ohm value), and now that pwr is shared between 3 speakers.
Tell us what kind of car, equip, ect, and we can help.
swez on 03/19/2005 12:22:23
Agreed... may not be a good idea as wired now. We need additional info on your front speaker system components and then can help you wire them most efficiently.
Too bad you did not bring the issues to the forum before you wired as now you may have a lot more work to do over again. That's why we are here... to help folks do it well the first try. It's OK to ask for help before diving in. That can save lots of gessing, getting it wrong or damaging your gear.
Those caps on the tweeters mentioned are there to block low frequencies to small tweeter that cannot handle lower frequencies. The value of the cap, coupled with the ohmic load of the tweeter, determines the roll off charateristics of a High Pass Filter. If we change the ohmic load, the filter characteristics will change as well.
Swez SMILE
PS Please avoid walking in the swamps of "Gee... wonder what will happen if I do this or that"... there are alligators you don't want to tangle with in the swamp. We all need a guide to get us through unfamiliar waters.
sanbas on 03/19/2005 12:31:52
its a 2001 Mitsubishi Diamante LS w/Factory Infinity system which has an external amp which i am replacing with the JL e4300.
yeah you are right, I thought i had it all figured out when i started wiring it but i guess not. The door panel is still out and also the back seat so i can change it around with not much difficulty.
Here is some more info:
I measured the rear 6x9 and the front 6" door speakers and they were both 3 ohms so i assumed the tweeter and the 3" dash speaker was also 3 ohm.
From my reading i figured that i can go either series and it will be (3+3+3=9 ohms impedence) or parallel with (1/3+1/3+1/3=1 ohm). Now on the jl audio website i cant find where it says what ohm its stable at so i didnt want to take a chance and wire it parallel SO i just did it in series.
Again these are the factory infinty speakers (i connected the 6" and an aftermarket infinity 63i kappa speaker to the rear channels to quickly see which sounds better, i think the stock ones sounded better). And i am using the JL e4300 4-channel amp.
If any other info needed please let me know. I will be checking this thread atleast 20 times today. THANKSSS
sanbas on 03/19/2005 13:48:27
man ****...i have a more urgent problem for the time being. I still need the answer to the above questions though.
I just bought a new (literally 1 week old) battery cuz my last one died and now this one is dead too now. Right now i have the amp connected this way: Red 4 gauge power wire with 40 amp inline fuse to amp and the blue turn on lead going to fuse box to windshield washer fuse using a fuse tap. I am pretty sure that that fuse is a switched fuse, does it matter which blade i put it on on the fuse?
thanks
any ideas why the battery keeps dying on me?
swez on 03/19/2005 18:56:14
Urgent matter first...
Probably have the REM powering the amp at all times and never shuts off. Since you have a stock HU, you have to get REM off an ACC/IGN circuit in fuse panel. It is only powered when key is in ACC or IGN/Run modes. Fuse that line at 1-3A.
As for speaker wiring, think ya need some hands on help here. Since this system uses a powered amp already, need to disable that amp system and get audio feeds from HU with a conversion harness. These are more complex systems than non-powered systems. Maybe you can drop by a local shop and arrange a house call. Rent a tech, pay him cash and allow skilled hands to do this phase of the job with/for you.
Swez
sanbas on 03/19/2005 19:43:08
well i checked it out and this is how it is.
When the car is @ the "ACC," "ON," or on the "START" position the power light for the amp comes on. Then i pull the key out the the power light turns off. SO THAT PART SEEMS FINE TO ME. BUT, Well this is stupid of me but i did notice that I had one of the dome lights on, hopefully thats all it was, but being a new battery it shouldnt have died over night from one dome light, should it? Ill drive it around tonight and see how it starts tomorrow. I will get a fuse and put it on that turn-on wire. THANKS for the help on this question.
I already have the conversion harness from METRA, I would like for taking it to a shop to be a last last resort. Since i have just began and already have all the wiring done i would hate to go now without trying a few things.
Like i said i feel like i am very close to being done, just need to get some advice on the low speaker sound situation. and if worse comes to worse, ill just hook up the one 6" speaker on the fronts and listen to music that way for now :-( or try the 6" and dash speaker in series and leave the tweeter out of the loop.
THANKS
swez on 03/20/2005 09:27:39
A dome light can kill a fresh battery in time. How long it will take? Depends on the BAT charge state and wattage drawn from a load. However, sounds like the REM wiring is OK... good!
As for wiring speakers to amp, do you have a 2 element speaker system or 3? A true 3-way would be a midbass, midrange and tweeter. A 2-way would be comprised of a midrange and tweeter w/ crossover filter on tweet. The tweet and midrange are usually wired in parallel to each other. Then a wire set back to the amp channel to power them. The filter has a variable impedance (based on frequency) and help maintain a stable ohmic load to the amp.
When using a 3-way Comp system, need an advanced crossover with impedance matching ability. Just 1 wire set from amp to input of crossover, then crossover outputs to each speaker element in the system. This is how we maintain a constant 4 ohm load to amp.
Are you planning to run this 4 channel amp as full range to all 4 speaker sets or use the rear amp channels for sub power?
Swez
sanbas on 03/20/2005 13:48:03
yeah i think it was the battery, b/c the car started back up without any problems today, but I d/c the turn-on wire for now also, just incase.
I guess what i have would be a 3-element speaker system if you mean by element the number of speaker on the front right or left side. I took some pics, they will be better then me trying to explain:
Door 6" speaker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/frontdoorspeaker001.jpg
Front view of 6" speaker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/DiaSpeakers016.jpg
Dash 3" speaker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/Dashspeaker012.jpg
Tweeter:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/tweeter001.jpg
--------------------------
As for running it at full range or use the rear channel for sub power:
When I had both rear 6x9s connected and the front right 6.5" speaker only when running it at fullrange it sounded much better than using the rear channel (lowpass filter on) for the 6x9 for bass only. I guess i would have to have all the other front speakers working to answer that for sure.
P.S. i dont have a sub yet, i was planning on using the 6x9s for bass FOR NOW (but like i said when i had the rear channel set for lowpass it didtn sound as good as when I turned the rear filter off and it plays all the notes not just bass), i plan on getting another amp along with subs LATER (dont know when).
Sorry if my explainations are long and confusing, I am just getting into this stuff.
swez on 03/20/2005 17:41:16
OK, the pics helped a lot. You have a 3-way system brewing here. Adding subs later, will make it a 4-way system.
What you will need to pull this off properly, is a pair of 3-way passive crossovers. The crossovers will allocate highs/mids/lows to the proper speaker elements, at proper crossover points.
Typical 3-way crossover:
Midbass = 60 - 300 Hz
Midrange = 300 - ~5,000 Hz
Highs = 5,000 Hz and up
We need to discuss this in a more timely manner that posts on this forum. I use Yahoo IM (swezdp) or Skype (swezdp) for these things. Both services are free, can submit pics, links and diagrams with either service. All you need is audio and a microphone to use these programs efficiently. Skype.com is excellent for audio quality and all other features noted.
Swez
sanbas on 03/20/2005 17:51:29
ok i have yahoo messenger and aim messenter...ill long on to yahoo and see if you are available when i get a chance.
swez on 03/20/2005 20:06:37
Good, Yahoo IM is OK for typing and poor at voice communications. Skype is superior quality audio and great search capability as well. We will be surfing the net a lot, looking at possible 3-way passive crossovers to pull the system together.
Do you have any budget constraints here? Some decent crossovers are available off E-bay and better prices too. However, selections are often limited and you need an account to buy and the savvy to get what is needed at the best possible prices.
The other route would be to shop key e-tailers and see what is avialable for your system. We can discuss the options and then take steps based on your specific needs and budget.
When we get this right, you will be astounded as to how good the new system can sound. It takes time, some careful shopping and a few extra gizzmos to make all this come together. Then, we can look into subs and amp options.
Swez
ttocs on 03/21/2005 11:47:42
don't forget swez that with the speakers being at 3 ohms, your normal 4ohm speaker crossover will have different x-over points.
Since we are woking with factory speakers, I would consider using a 2 way x-over and maybe some caps for the tweets.
I would measure the impedence of the tweets however as we are still going on the assumption that the tweets are 3 ohms. Infinity likes to make things hard and we all know what happens when we assume.....
sanbas on 03/21/2005 15:12:45
ah crossovers! I thought a speaker was a speaker, shouldnt it still make the sound? If i have to get crossovers to make it work, ill just connect the 6" speaker then, b/c i'd rather buy some new components w/crossover rather than buying crossovers for these stock speakers unless they are filthy cheap....my break is over but ill be on yahoo later today after work seeing if you are online.
thanks
ttocs on 03/21/2005 15:26:49
they will work with out crossovers, but not as well and probably not at the level you would like them to be at.
sanbas on 03/21/2005 22:01:45
well I will be checking from time to time to see if you get on yahoo.
And its good to know that they will work w/o the crossover...if by "not as well" you mean it can be better but it will sound ok without them I am ok with that for now. Right now all i want is for the speakers to play music so i can start putting the door panels back on...it looks like a storm inside my car right now.
swez on 03/22/2005 08:22:45
Crossovers are used to allocate specific frequency bands to each speaker connected to it. A crossover can be as simple as a capacitor or coil, or very complex with many filtering devices. The complex xovers also help match the speaker ohnic loads to protect the amp.
The most basic crossover needed here, is one to protect the tweeter. (need to block lows and mids) I would suggest that you do some additional reading and research before diving into an advanced install. For now, use the door mount speakers you have. Hold off on using the 3" midrange until you have a better understanding on how 3-way crossovers work and a budget to buy quality parts.
http://www.bcae1.com
This site has many great tuitorials, diagrams and design tools in it. Just read as you have time and learn what applies to your needs. Some of the info is pretty deep for a beginner, but the parts you need to know are pretty straight up.
Swez
PS Put your car back together and enjoy the new amp for now. More learning is needed before diving into a more complex install.
sanbas on 03/23/2005 22:16:58
well this weekend I am gonna give it a final try and if the sould is still low then i'll just hook up the front left and right 6" and the 2 rear 6x9s and live with it.
But first I am gonna unhook all the 3 of the speakers from the front Left and put them next to the amp in the trunk and wire them in series, then parallel and if it still doesnt work then I am gonna try it with only the 6" and the 3" eliminating the tweeter, if that doesnt work then I'll give up and just only the 6"
Thanks for all the help esp. swez!!!
swez on 03/24/2005 17:52:18
What you will really find out, the 6" is needed, a tweeter is needed and the 3" can be employed as a decent midrange. The only thing needed for this 3-way system is a good passive crossover. With the right crossover, all 3 speakers can be used and have a perfect impedance match to your amp. (4 ohms)
Also, if you eliminated the tweeter and just used the 6" door speaker, would have only MB/MR signals and no highs. Poor imaging and clarity that way. Better to go with the 6" door spkr and add a good tweet. The tweet will need a passive cap to block lows. What value cap to use? Depends on the tweeter specs you have.
Swez
sanbas on 03/27/2005 00:51:09
Well I got a chance to mess with it this weekend...I took all the speakers (3 out and put em in the trunk next to the amp and connected them to Ch 1 and had all the other 3 channels disconnected.
When i had all 3 in series the sound once again was really low. Then i Took the Tweeter out and the sound out of the 6" and 3" worked fine.
So for now I am taking the tweeter out and just using the 6" and 3" up front on both sides. As for highs, the 3" seems to be doing a good job at that, the e4300 amp has highpass settings for the front channels so I have that adjusted and it sounds good to me.
Eventually I will get a set of components (probably MB Quart...i have read a lot of good things about them) and then it will be perfect, in the meantime I am gonna enjoy this setup.
THANKS TO ALL THE GUYS WITH THERE ADVICE!!! great people
montego_27 on 03/27/2005 06:12:56
I have a suggestion here.Swez has repeatedly tried to tell you what to do here, all very good suggestions.(He doesn't give out many bad ones) but you still seem intent on doing something else.Now at this last post, you're right back to where you started 21 posts ago, trying to wire these three speakers in "series"! What's up? It's almost frustrating following this thread. Try this.
Here's a very cheap 3-way crossover:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14977&item=5763150417&rd=1
It's like $15 bucks and $6 bucks shipping
Check it out. Or one similar to it. It's a very low end X- over but it will give you some idea about setting up crossovers and what they can do.
One final thought.. When you're ready to step up to a good set of components,try to rethink the MB Quart thing. Incredibly overpriced.
Especially when you have CDT's out there for less money that just beat the snot out of the Quarts. Once again, that's just my honest opinion.But you know what they say about opinions....
swez on 03/27/2005 13:42:38
Agreed, it is frustrating to take one by the hand, walk them through the technical steps and then... they scrap my info and do what they want, even though they know nothing on the subject. Give me a break!
I guess some folks are just destined to be boneheads, regardless of when the facts are staring them in the face. I cannot work well with those who refuse to follow very simple instructions. Hey, I tried my best. You are on your own friend, as far as my inputs are considered.
Good luck and hope you don't mess up your gear,
Swez
PS Look, you seem like a polite guy... we appreciate that. However, when people come to a tech forum for help and disregard the collective knowledge they are given, it makes techs not wish to spend too much time helping those who just won't listen. Maybe you did not understand the suggestions and need some simplification. If that is the case, we can try one more go at things.
However, if there are other reasons that advice was ignored.... I am clueless and need some input to go any further on this subject. Your call mate!
Victor on 03/27/2005 15:54:24
lol... another one there swez... hehe
sanbas on 03/27/2005 17:40:57
man sooorry...i wouldnt say i am back where i started. Now the sound is coming fine out of the speakers so i did make progress. Could it be better with the crossovers...yeah maybe i have no idea, as you all could probably tell this is my first time doing this.
I will go ahead and purchase those pyramid x-overs and give them a try and see what difference it makes.
BTW I didnt completely ignore what SWEZ said about crossovers, I said that I was gonna purchase some component sets later down the line that come with their own crossovers and if i purchase some now i wouldnt have any use for them later, so i would save money. anyways i guess since there is such a strong response that i sould get some now i will go ahead and buy them.
Man this is the response i get for giving thanks, I dont want to see what happens when someone acts like an ass. (which i dont think i did)
Oh well...
swez on 03/28/2005 12:12:06
Dear Sanbas,
I called you out on this matter as we Golds too often get folks who post "so many" questions due to lack of knowledge. We spend a good deal of time and care to guide those who ask for help.
However, when someone gets adequate solutions and seems not to follow the plan, it's like a slap in the face to the guys that are doing all the research to guide one through, and they (seemingly) ignore the prescribed solutions.
FYI, have been in audio for more than 30 years. I know what works and why. I give our readers the best information I have available and it's free to all. So, Am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that the strategy presented has lead to a new level of understanding and what to do next. But some of the previous posts seem to indicate otherwise. That's why I threw out the yellow flag.
Back to the issue, a quality 3-way crossover will allow you to use all 3 drivers in a well matched impedance load to the amp. That's what a well designed crossover is designed to do. It will work and do it well if you choose good speaker components and do the install of same.
The 3-way crossovers noted: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14977&item=5763150417&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
are adequate and low cost. The best way to mount them is under the dash or seats. It would be a very good idea to make a small enclosure for them as the input/output leads are exposed. If you box them, them... then they can be mounted under the dash/seats safely.
Just note these crossovers are designed for 4 and 8 ohm driver usage. Will want to use the 4 ohm connections as most car audio speakers are 4 ohms.
Hope that helps and let's move forward, not backwards,
Swez
sanbas on 03/29/2005 20:48:45
well if you arent just sick and tired of me, how about this one:
http://www.electronicheadquarters.com/detail_id100235.aspx
the frequency range is wider, so i was thinking it would be better, plus it is enclosed so i dont have to worry about covering them up.
AND since they are all 4 ohms, will it be ok to use with my 3 ohm speakers...any negative effects possible?
thanks
swez on 03/29/2005 21:26:55
No, I am not tired of responding... just trying to stay on track is all. We are bigger than that right?
The x-overs noted are adequate, but the low end cutoff point is a bit low for MB drivers. (20-80 Hz., is more for subs) Can compensate for this if the amp used, has a HPF that you can be set to 60-80 Hz.
Also, even though the DC resistance measurements of your speakers are near 3 ohms, that is normal. The nominal "impedance" (AC resistance) is going to be very close to 4 ohms. The crossover will help the amp see a 4 ohm "nominal" load.
This xover should work fine for a 3-way system as discussed before.
Swez
PS If I came across a bit harsh, did not mean to be. Am going through some "rough stuff" right now and don't mean to take it out on you/others. If I was offensive, forgive me as I am only human. GRIN and bare it I guess? PMS?
ttocs on 03/30/2005 13:00:59
understand that crossover do get warm and need air to cool. I have seem them melted when they were covered up too much....
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