Hey everyone!
I've read through the posted articles here, been learning a LOT over the past few days. I've done a lot of head unit installations in my day, but it was always on a low level. I didn't really understand what all was going on in the background, mostly just made sure the front left speaker was connected to the front left output, and so forth, then cross my fingers and hope it works.
I'm looking to do something a little bigger now. I drive an '88 Daytona (working to turn it into a show car) and have put the back seats away...it's essentially a two-seater with a completely open cabin and hatch, no trunk, just all open inside. It's not a huge car and due to the shape doesn't need a lot of power to get decent volume.
My focus is clarity. I want the cleanest sound possible while still maintaining enough thump to enjoy it. I don't need to annoy neighbors two blocks away, but would still like a good kick in the pants. But overall...that kick had better be clean.
I'm strongly leaning toward Pioneer's DEH P80MP head unit, I've had a number of different heads in the past and for some reason always found Pioneer's agreeable; I also like the 6v line outs and the simple design (I hate a lot of gimicks and colors). I'm fairly decided on this head unit (unless someone knows a really good reason I should avoid it).
Everything else is up for discussion. Paired with the right speakers I feel fairly confident that this head unit will give me very decent audio. I'd prefer to only have to amp the sub for starters, simply to avoid having to replace my stock alternator...though this too is open for discussion.
I'm looking to spend maybe $200-$300 on an amp, would like the best quality audio possible using the least amount of power. I haven't given myself a budget for the sub speakers themselves yet because I don't know whether I want to run two twelves, one twelve, two tens, or what. I have loads of room for an enclosure, but my understanding of sealed, ported, and so forth is still limited (found the articles somewhat confusing). I'm also a little lost when it comes to how ohms work, what they mean, etc.
So I want ideas...not merely ideas, but REASONS why those ideas would be in my best interest, why they would be the best option for my application.
In other words...I'm lost. Help!
Replies (13)
compvr15s on 03/9/2005 14:24:36
first of daytona's are great for getting have loud systems, almost any hatchback back will give great spl levels... im also particular to pioneer, very simple to run, sturdy, and just good performance.. what i would do is go with probably a set of 12s in either a big sealed box for the really deep bass or get a nice ported box, any way you go with the bass bouncing off that hatch the only place it has to go is forward so it not going to take a lot to get loud bass. u said u want to make a show car, is your audio equipment included in this, do u want your amps showing and speakers are will they be concealed? if you not worried about looks there are many amps out there that are sturdy contenders.
i have only seen a few amps that i like the looks of. beauty does not produce the beast though lol.... using a mono class d amp here will give u the least draw/and the most power off of your current electrical system, 80-90% effecieny, compared to 50-60 from A/B systle amps... a 600 watt amp should not put much of a strain on your system and will give plenty of power to a pair of 12s. at full power this amp shouldnt consume no more than 60 amps off ur electrial system. but i do also recommened that u upgrade the wires from your chasis to ur ground, from ur batt. to your alternator to 4awg wire. this will gureentee that all the power is getting from point a to point b. as for subs, a few come to mind that will give off good sq and spl. alpine type R's are very nice here rated at 300 watts rms, a pair of dual 2ohm subs will wired up perfectly to a 600 watt 2ohm amp. another is the infinity perfect 12d. will give very clean bass, probably not as loud as the type R but will give good bass.... thing to remember here. if you go ported it will take less power for the sub to reach x-max. the bigger the box the less it will handle, so be careful, as well if you go ported, subsonic filters are recommended, keeps the sub from playin below port frequency, you dont want that.
also if you feel like you may only want 1 sub instead of two, can also go this way and still achieve incredible bass and sq. For example, JL audio W6 would be a great choice, higher power rating but still a single 600 watt amp will power one. or the alpine type X, another good choice, also Elemental Designs 130V.2 would be a good choice... adire audio bramha is good as well.there are many out there. others will recommend too.
for amps, many good brands out there in the 600 watt range, a few that come to mind, kicker kx600.1(2 ohm stable), jbl pb600.1(1-2ohm stable), phoenix gold xenon 600.1(1-4 ohm at 600 watts), jl audio 500/1 will give more than 500 watts but you pay for the name. so many more to chose from.
another thing to think about is sound deadening, will increase spl a few dbs and make it sound so much better. dont know anybody who wants to listen to their car rattle while listening to music.
j have to go for now dont worrry many ppl will reply
actionplant on 03/9/2005 16:01:37
Thanks for the help, it's a great place to start...after reading some more I think I'm wanting to go for an SQL setup, and would honestly like to have as much hidden as possible since while I do plan to show this car, the audio won't be a factor in that but rather a clean, nice way of filling out the rest of the vehicle; I'm wanting to drive it too and don't want to give too much incentive to have it broken into. Considering it'll be hidden (and considering I'm a minimalist, I prefer things as clean as possible, nothing too flashy) the look of the amp isn't a huge factor...as long as it's clean and can be neatly installed.
What I'm thinking though is making a custom rail so that I can cover the entire system with a retractable cloth cover in the hatch. With the rear seats gone I have room to build a cabinet of sorts for the amp; a console door will give me security up front.
I liked the idea of the jbl amp, I like to rub elbows with our local theater and live installation people and their recommendations for theater audio have always been for JBL, that's not to say that other brands are good or bad, it's simply a personal brand preference, the company has already proven itself to me.
In the opinion of the people here, if I'm leaning toward the SQ side of SQL, would ported or sealed give me better quality? I am aware that a sealed enclosure will likely give me better boom, but are nuances in the lower end lost due to the restriction? If I were to go with a ported 2x12 enclosure, which JBL amp would give me the best power output with the least power consumption?
And do you guys feel that my head unit will be sufficient to drive the front and rear speakers, or would you advise seperately amping them (remember, I haven't decided on what to get for these speakers yet).
I didn't state my listening preferences...I listen to Harry Connick Jr. as much as Black Sabbath...wide range there, I'm just saying I want it to sound good and clean for jazz while still being loud enough to enjoy the metal. Basically the same system jesus would want, made of un-obtanium. Is there such a thing as a perfect balance?
compvr15s on 03/9/2005 17:23:38
ported enclosures are good for deep bass, works best with rap music, still loud with heavy music too, but a sealed enclosure will probably better fit what u want since its clean tight bass, will feel drum beats and things of the such. id recommend the jbl pb600.1 then, 600 watts of pure power to a 1 or 2 ohm load...
the head unit supplies about 22 watts of power to all speakers powered to it, it will get loud but you will always be louder by dedicating a seperate amp for that. id say somthing atleast 50-75 watts rms, depending what speakers you decide to choose. when lookin for speakers look for ones with high sensitivity. especially if runnin off the head unit the higher the sensitivity the better it will be. that number just tells how much power it takes to get the speaker to a certain level. the higher the number the less power its going to take, the lower numbers represent high power needs. same is true when picking a sub.
you can always run the speakers off ur head unit and if u feel you need more upgrade. doubling your power will on net a few dbs of increased volume. if u do close your amp in, make sure to leave adaqute space for venting, may even want to add a small 12v fan to keep air running across it. anything else just ask good luck.
actionplant on 03/9/2005 17:40:02
Thanks again, I had been thinking about venting and will probably use a 120mm pulled from an older computer case. Any recommendations on sound deadening material? Again, doesn't have to be the best name brand as I don't plan to compete with the sound system, just something that'll work well and not look terrible.
compvr15s on 03/9/2005 18:56:49
i have heard good things about brown bread from bquiet, as well as edead by elemental design, as i have no experience with either brand, have found many good reviews on the internet. i used dynamat before on a system i did, worked well but was expensive, sure the other do as good or better for half the price or less.
actionplant on 03/9/2005 19:04:33
Thanks, I'll check them both out.
Descent on 03/9/2005 23:00:41
I used EDead V1 to cover my entire trunk, it worked beautifully, and very easy to install. Very cheap too, between 1.00 and 1.50 sq/ft
actionplant on 03/10/2005 10:45:51
I just found that elemental design is selling edead on ebay, 60sq' for $50, 120sq' for $100. If you had a good experience with this stuff I think I'm going to try it as well...the price is definitely right.
swez on 03/10/2005 10:48:01
Before digging into amp choices, what is the ALT/BAT current supply you have now? A good Class D in the 600 Wrms range will draw 40-55A near full power. A solid 4 channel (50 x 4 Wrms) will draw ~25-30A in additional current. Most cars with a 110A ALT will handle this w/o major problems.
Also, you may want to consider a 300-ish Wrms sub amp. Will give plenty of bass performance as needed. Sealed subs have better SQ than ported designs. They are also smaller and easier to fit than ported designs. In a hatch back arrangement, you will get plenty of additional SPL bass coupling within the cabin. No need for a larger amp to get concert level sound. (SQL)
It is best to map out a plan for the end result you desire here. That includes amp(s), HU, speakers, subs and enclosure. The hardware needed is also a factor. Can guide you to some very good deals if you don't mind buying off e-bay.
If you desire some one on one coaching and A-Z assistance, contact me via e-mail and we can discuss some options.
Swez
swezdp@juno.com
actionplant on 03/10/2005 13:37:01
Thanks much...just bought another Daytona last night, so I'm looking at doing a similar setup in both vehicles. Absolutely no problem buying off ebay, if I can get a good deal there I'll be happy to go that route.
I'll be getting the HU I originally mentioned (the Pioneer DEH P80MP). I'd like to put 2x12 subs in each car. The new car has a permanent fiberglass enclosure already built in and sized for 2x12s, I'll probably build the first system in this car and if I like how it sounds, will use that enclosure as a template for the second vehicle.
Both cars have approximately 95 amps from the alternator.
I like the idea of the already mentioned JBL amp, though if there is something that will give me the clarity and volume I want while using even less power I'd be open to suggestions.
What I really need now is to know which subs to mate to that amp, and what to buy for the other speakers (while I do have some, let's pretend I have nothing and go from there).
compvr15s on 03/10/2005 20:01:08
since you said u have removed the back seat, id recommend a good pair of comps for the front stage and not really worry bout the rear fill, the fronts are whats give you most of the sound anyway. what is your price range on speakers. if you go this way you can get a way with an addition 2channel amp to power them.
jbl also has a 300.1 model same as 600 but with less power and current draw. not too sure what would be a good match up for this. this amp will give plenty of power to a pair of 12s but you have to watch ur gains because underpowering subs is alot worse than over powring them, but as long as u are smart about it, it can be done with no problem. this sound like what you want to do?let us know and we will better help you
actionplant on 03/11/2005 13:31:13
I'm definitely interested in this idea...my budget for the rest of the speakers hadn't been set yet, what do you think we could do with $300-$500?
compvr15s on 03/11/2005 19:50:48
500 dollars will get you an awesome set of 3 way comps. but this is not a need. you can get great set of comps for as little as 150 dollars
http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-CL-61A-6-1-2-inch-Component-System-101083.htm
150 dollars for 300 dollar speakers, color didnt come out right so they reduced the price
brands to look for on ebay. alpine, boston acoustics,diamon, focal, infinity, jl audio, kicker, mb quart... these here will all give great output.. silk dome tweets will give a brigther sound than the metal dome tweets(tend to be harsh highs), also if planning to run of head unit, look for the highest sensitivity possible, will require less power to reach sound level. component systems will give you the best staging and sound here, although you do not have to use these, there are always coaxials, will give good sound but if you really wanna shine a good set of comps are my recommendation.
I've read through the posted articles here, been learning a LOT over the past few days. I've done a lot of head unit installations in my day, but it was always on a low level. I didn't really understand what all was going on in the background, mostly just made sure the front left speaker was connected to the front left output, and so forth, then cross my fingers and hope it works.
I'm looking to do something a little bigger now. I drive an '88 Daytona (working to turn it into a show car) and have put the back seats away...it's essentially a two-seater with a completely open cabin and hatch, no trunk, just all open inside. It's not a huge car and due to the shape doesn't need a lot of power to get decent volume.
My focus is clarity. I want the cleanest sound possible while still maintaining enough thump to enjoy it. I don't need to annoy neighbors two blocks away, but would still like a good kick in the pants. But overall...that kick had better be clean.
I'm strongly leaning toward Pioneer's DEH P80MP head unit, I've had a number of different heads in the past and for some reason always found Pioneer's agreeable; I also like the 6v line outs and the simple design (I hate a lot of gimicks and colors). I'm fairly decided on this head unit (unless someone knows a really good reason I should avoid it).
Everything else is up for discussion. Paired with the right speakers I feel fairly confident that this head unit will give me very decent audio. I'd prefer to only have to amp the sub for starters, simply to avoid having to replace my stock alternator...though this too is open for discussion.
I'm looking to spend maybe $200-$300 on an amp, would like the best quality audio possible using the least amount of power. I haven't given myself a budget for the sub speakers themselves yet because I don't know whether I want to run two twelves, one twelve, two tens, or what. I have loads of room for an enclosure, but my understanding of sealed, ported, and so forth is still limited (found the articles somewhat confusing). I'm also a little lost when it comes to how ohms work, what they mean, etc.
So I want ideas...not merely ideas, but REASONS why those ideas would be in my best interest, why they would be the best option for my application.
In other words...I'm lost. Help!
Replies (13)
compvr15s on 03/9/2005 14:24:36
first of daytona's are great for getting have loud systems, almost any hatchback back will give great spl levels... im also particular to pioneer, very simple to run, sturdy, and just good performance.. what i would do is go with probably a set of 12s in either a big sealed box for the really deep bass or get a nice ported box, any way you go with the bass bouncing off that hatch the only place it has to go is forward so it not going to take a lot to get loud bass. u said u want to make a show car, is your audio equipment included in this, do u want your amps showing and speakers are will they be concealed? if you not worried about looks there are many amps out there that are sturdy contenders.
i have only seen a few amps that i like the looks of. beauty does not produce the beast though lol.... using a mono class d amp here will give u the least draw/and the most power off of your current electrical system, 80-90% effecieny, compared to 50-60 from A/B systle amps... a 600 watt amp should not put much of a strain on your system and will give plenty of power to a pair of 12s. at full power this amp shouldnt consume no more than 60 amps off ur electrial system. but i do also recommened that u upgrade the wires from your chasis to ur ground, from ur batt. to your alternator to 4awg wire. this will gureentee that all the power is getting from point a to point b. as for subs, a few come to mind that will give off good sq and spl. alpine type R's are very nice here rated at 300 watts rms, a pair of dual 2ohm subs will wired up perfectly to a 600 watt 2ohm amp. another is the infinity perfect 12d. will give very clean bass, probably not as loud as the type R but will give good bass.... thing to remember here. if you go ported it will take less power for the sub to reach x-max. the bigger the box the less it will handle, so be careful, as well if you go ported, subsonic filters are recommended, keeps the sub from playin below port frequency, you dont want that.
also if you feel like you may only want 1 sub instead of two, can also go this way and still achieve incredible bass and sq. For example, JL audio W6 would be a great choice, higher power rating but still a single 600 watt amp will power one. or the alpine type X, another good choice, also Elemental Designs 130V.2 would be a good choice... adire audio bramha is good as well.there are many out there. others will recommend too.
for amps, many good brands out there in the 600 watt range, a few that come to mind, kicker kx600.1(2 ohm stable), jbl pb600.1(1-2ohm stable), phoenix gold xenon 600.1(1-4 ohm at 600 watts), jl audio 500/1 will give more than 500 watts but you pay for the name. so many more to chose from.
another thing to think about is sound deadening, will increase spl a few dbs and make it sound so much better. dont know anybody who wants to listen to their car rattle while listening to music.
j have to go for now dont worrry many ppl will reply
actionplant on 03/9/2005 16:01:37
Thanks for the help, it's a great place to start...after reading some more I think I'm wanting to go for an SQL setup, and would honestly like to have as much hidden as possible since while I do plan to show this car, the audio won't be a factor in that but rather a clean, nice way of filling out the rest of the vehicle; I'm wanting to drive it too and don't want to give too much incentive to have it broken into. Considering it'll be hidden (and considering I'm a minimalist, I prefer things as clean as possible, nothing too flashy) the look of the amp isn't a huge factor...as long as it's clean and can be neatly installed.
What I'm thinking though is making a custom rail so that I can cover the entire system with a retractable cloth cover in the hatch. With the rear seats gone I have room to build a cabinet of sorts for the amp; a console door will give me security up front.
I liked the idea of the jbl amp, I like to rub elbows with our local theater and live installation people and their recommendations for theater audio have always been for JBL, that's not to say that other brands are good or bad, it's simply a personal brand preference, the company has already proven itself to me.
In the opinion of the people here, if I'm leaning toward the SQ side of SQL, would ported or sealed give me better quality? I am aware that a sealed enclosure will likely give me better boom, but are nuances in the lower end lost due to the restriction? If I were to go with a ported 2x12 enclosure, which JBL amp would give me the best power output with the least power consumption?
And do you guys feel that my head unit will be sufficient to drive the front and rear speakers, or would you advise seperately amping them (remember, I haven't decided on what to get for these speakers yet).
I didn't state my listening preferences...I listen to Harry Connick Jr. as much as Black Sabbath...wide range there, I'm just saying I want it to sound good and clean for jazz while still being loud enough to enjoy the metal. Basically the same system jesus would want, made of un-obtanium. Is there such a thing as a perfect balance?
compvr15s on 03/9/2005 17:23:38
ported enclosures are good for deep bass, works best with rap music, still loud with heavy music too, but a sealed enclosure will probably better fit what u want since its clean tight bass, will feel drum beats and things of the such. id recommend the jbl pb600.1 then, 600 watts of pure power to a 1 or 2 ohm load...
the head unit supplies about 22 watts of power to all speakers powered to it, it will get loud but you will always be louder by dedicating a seperate amp for that. id say somthing atleast 50-75 watts rms, depending what speakers you decide to choose. when lookin for speakers look for ones with high sensitivity. especially if runnin off the head unit the higher the sensitivity the better it will be. that number just tells how much power it takes to get the speaker to a certain level. the higher the number the less power its going to take, the lower numbers represent high power needs. same is true when picking a sub.
you can always run the speakers off ur head unit and if u feel you need more upgrade. doubling your power will on net a few dbs of increased volume. if u do close your amp in, make sure to leave adaqute space for venting, may even want to add a small 12v fan to keep air running across it. anything else just ask good luck.
actionplant on 03/9/2005 17:40:02
Thanks again, I had been thinking about venting and will probably use a 120mm pulled from an older computer case. Any recommendations on sound deadening material? Again, doesn't have to be the best name brand as I don't plan to compete with the sound system, just something that'll work well and not look terrible.
compvr15s on 03/9/2005 18:56:49
i have heard good things about brown bread from bquiet, as well as edead by elemental design, as i have no experience with either brand, have found many good reviews on the internet. i used dynamat before on a system i did, worked well but was expensive, sure the other do as good or better for half the price or less.
actionplant on 03/9/2005 19:04:33
Thanks, I'll check them both out.
Descent on 03/9/2005 23:00:41
I used EDead V1 to cover my entire trunk, it worked beautifully, and very easy to install. Very cheap too, between 1.00 and 1.50 sq/ft
actionplant on 03/10/2005 10:45:51
I just found that elemental design is selling edead on ebay, 60sq' for $50, 120sq' for $100. If you had a good experience with this stuff I think I'm going to try it as well...the price is definitely right.
swez on 03/10/2005 10:48:01
Before digging into amp choices, what is the ALT/BAT current supply you have now? A good Class D in the 600 Wrms range will draw 40-55A near full power. A solid 4 channel (50 x 4 Wrms) will draw ~25-30A in additional current. Most cars with a 110A ALT will handle this w/o major problems.
Also, you may want to consider a 300-ish Wrms sub amp. Will give plenty of bass performance as needed. Sealed subs have better SQ than ported designs. They are also smaller and easier to fit than ported designs. In a hatch back arrangement, you will get plenty of additional SPL bass coupling within the cabin. No need for a larger amp to get concert level sound. (SQL)
It is best to map out a plan for the end result you desire here. That includes amp(s), HU, speakers, subs and enclosure. The hardware needed is also a factor. Can guide you to some very good deals if you don't mind buying off e-bay.
If you desire some one on one coaching and A-Z assistance, contact me via e-mail and we can discuss some options.
Swez
swezdp@juno.com
actionplant on 03/10/2005 13:37:01
Thanks much...just bought another Daytona last night, so I'm looking at doing a similar setup in both vehicles. Absolutely no problem buying off ebay, if I can get a good deal there I'll be happy to go that route.
I'll be getting the HU I originally mentioned (the Pioneer DEH P80MP). I'd like to put 2x12 subs in each car. The new car has a permanent fiberglass enclosure already built in and sized for 2x12s, I'll probably build the first system in this car and if I like how it sounds, will use that enclosure as a template for the second vehicle.
Both cars have approximately 95 amps from the alternator.
I like the idea of the already mentioned JBL amp, though if there is something that will give me the clarity and volume I want while using even less power I'd be open to suggestions.
What I really need now is to know which subs to mate to that amp, and what to buy for the other speakers (while I do have some, let's pretend I have nothing and go from there).
compvr15s on 03/10/2005 20:01:08
since you said u have removed the back seat, id recommend a good pair of comps for the front stage and not really worry bout the rear fill, the fronts are whats give you most of the sound anyway. what is your price range on speakers. if you go this way you can get a way with an addition 2channel amp to power them.
jbl also has a 300.1 model same as 600 but with less power and current draw. not too sure what would be a good match up for this. this amp will give plenty of power to a pair of 12s but you have to watch ur gains because underpowering subs is alot worse than over powring them, but as long as u are smart about it, it can be done with no problem. this sound like what you want to do?let us know and we will better help you
actionplant on 03/11/2005 13:31:13
I'm definitely interested in this idea...my budget for the rest of the speakers hadn't been set yet, what do you think we could do with $300-$500?
compvr15s on 03/11/2005 19:50:48
500 dollars will get you an awesome set of 3 way comps. but this is not a need. you can get great set of comps for as little as 150 dollars
http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-CL-61A-6-1-2-inch-Component-System-101083.htm
150 dollars for 300 dollar speakers, color didnt come out right so they reduced the price
brands to look for on ebay. alpine, boston acoustics,diamon, focal, infinity, jl audio, kicker, mb quart... these here will all give great output.. silk dome tweets will give a brigther sound than the metal dome tweets(tend to be harsh highs), also if planning to run of head unit, look for the highest sensitivity possible, will require less power to reach sound level. component systems will give you the best staging and sound here, although you do not have to use these, there are always coaxials, will give good sound but if you really wanna shine a good set of comps are my recommendation.
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