Well, somebody had to go and get me started didn't they?? Putting up a post about home speakers and car speaker comparisons. So here goes.....
I have ALWAYS wanted a car stereo in the house. Like Swez said, the speakers are more robust . To me they just seem beefier in general than regular house speakers. Plus I like the colors and different designs and all. Man, I even like the way the coaxials look with the speakers all made together, even though they don't sound as good as separates.
Soon as I get some money goin', I'm gonna start one up in my pool table room. The TV is going to be in the corner up on a wooden shelf and in the front of that shelf I'm going to put the HU of my choice so that you just see the front of it like you would in a car. Run speakers in the walls, probably 6.5's, biggest round speaker I know of. Even 6x9's wouldn't be too bad to me. I might even throw in a good amp for the speakers, don't know yet. Probably no subs either. All of this is because I can still shoot pool and no audio equipment would be in the way. But I can still have cool looks and good sounds. Plus the pool room is going to have pictures of old cars like the 67 and 70 Chevelle, or 57 Chevy. It will be all about auto and audio.
Any suggestions on what to do?? Not on brands, I've got my choices. I mean construction wise. I figure the space between the studs in the walls can serve as a enclosure for the speakers. I can even seal it up with silicone and have a drywall front panel, just like the rest of the walls in the room. Drywall board is kind of dense, but not like 3/4 MDF. I could make the front panels of MDF and just paint and mud it into the rest of the sheetrock. I don't think you'd be able to tell it was different.
Speakers will be a little higher than ear level, so it won't be blaring right in your ears, and the sound will fill the room that way. Rather than having one speaker per wall, I'd put two speakers in a wall and two more speakers in the opposite wall on the other side of the room. Kind of like in a car, two in front, and two in back. I could even do subs that way if I wanted to. But probably not.
Right now I have a home stereo in there with speakers up on the walls and a little 8" sub box with the main unit on a bench. It's not really in the way, but it could sound better. And look better too. I don't want to see any cords running to speakers.
I know this is a forum about car audio, but It's nice to deviate a little and still be within the realm of it.
Replies (16)
uochronos on 02/1/2005 02:07:25
i just browsed over your article here so hopefully i';m not saying something you already adressed... but how are you going to power it?
my dad and i put a HU and 4 speakers in his shop but it took use forever to find a AC adaptor that had the 5amps capability the HU needed to run..
now a new HU would take around 10amps to run...
then you start getting amplifiers and your talking 50+amps of power needed...
honestly alot of home speakers are quite robust if your buying parts... for instance Adire makes home speakers as well as car speakers. and they make some really robust speakers.
also maybe you could use the HU as the source unit and use car speakers but use home plate amps to power it. these well plug into an outlet in the wall.
Chronos
15-11-1988 on 02/1/2005 04:52:44
15-11-1988 on 02/1/2005 05:00:21
You could try putting car speakers into an older home system. I did it to my sony sterio it is about 30 years old and gives out 60 watt over 4 chennels I simply un screwed the old 6.5 and put in the new ones and it sounds good enough not as good as a car system but its good enough.
audeogod on 02/1/2005 08:17:32
Actually I didn't mention power supply. I plan to use a pretty healthy one. A friend of mine has one that puts out 80 amps, and he only paid about $75 for it. I figure I can get one like that.
Also, the point of this for me is that it be about cars and car audio. I would only use car audio gear. For one thing, the head units I think just have better features. Not only being compact, but it just spits the CD out when you hit eject. I hate home receivers that take more than a second or two cause of the 5 disc changer spinning around. Also take longer to load with CD's. I'm sure not all of them do, but the two that I have do. So does my 3 disd DVD player. I hate that.
So, I'll use car gear. Plus it will be a unique conversation piece. Look cool and all. People will say, "how'd you do that?", when they come to play pool.
swez on 02/1/2005 08:32:31
Drywall is plenty good for speaker mounting if you stay with small format ones under 10". Especially when using 5/8" thickness and studs are on 16" ctrs. Would be a good idea to fabricate a sealed enclosure and pack with insulation too. Frame it into the studs with 2x4's to create the enclosure and figure about 0.3 cf for the enclosure itself.
Also, pre-wire all speakers from source unit location to speakers. If you have a drop ceiling, just pop the panels and use a push stick (6-8 foot long, 1" X 1" STOCK IS FINE) with an eye screw on trailing end of the stick for tying off wires as you pull them along. We do this manuver all the time when wiring DMX systems for restaurants, hotels, gas stations and what not. That way, all wiring is hidden above tiles and behind drywall.
That'll do ya just fine,
Swez
Crum on 02/1/2005 09:58:59
I agree with Swez - use some 2x4s and you will essentially be building an enclosure within your wall. If you discover you have less than 5/8" drywall, you could always create a plywood/MDF face on which you could mount the speakers. Then use some trim around the edges to transition back to the drywall.
Assuming your house is built with 2x4 studs on 16" centers, frame the horizontal members of your "box" with 2x4s on 12" centers. This will leave you with a space 14 1/2" x 10 1/2" x 3 1/2" = .308 cf. If you need to create a face, you can easily make it 12" x 12" and secure it to the horizontal bracing. Just be sure that the speaker wire is easily accessable after the "box" is built.
The small space that you will be cutting out to create your box will be easy to patch back. But before you begin the project, know that if your wife painted the room with an eggshell finish, you will be repainting the entire wall, not just the patch. Also double check that your studs are 16" o.c. - if you're putting a speaker in the cavity next to a door, window, or opening, you may not have the full 16" cavity. Lastly when cutting, look out for recepticles and switches on both sides of the wall your going to cut - nothing blows a circuit and fries you quicker than cutting a live wire.
When I put surround sound in my house, I made 11" x 11" recessed boxes on two walls in the same locations you're describing. I measured twice, then crossed my fingers, then started drilling up through my crawlspace to the cavities in the wall. All of the speaker wires then terminated into jacks behind the TV. I now just plug from my receiver to the jacks behind the TV.
If you follow my lead, this may also be the proper time to start planning on putting speakers to your deck outside. . .
Crum
Buickman94 on 02/1/2005 16:14:16
AC to DC adaptors can be found all over the place. The system i just built uses a 10amp 13.8 volt AC/DC converter that i found on ebay for about $40. Radio Shack also makes them i beleive. Adding additional amplifiers may cause you problems though. Why not jsut use a home theater receiver that is 4 ohm capable?
audeogod on 02/1/2005 16:49:41
WOW!!!! Some wonderful responses here. Thank you all.
Ok, some information on this pool room. It's in a now finished basement that I built and wired up myself. So the 2x4's are on 16" centers and I pretty much remember where all the wire was run in at. But I'll be seeing it all again soon cause I paneled the room out when I finished it, but I am now changing all of that to drywall cause I'm not satisfied with the paneling look anymore. I will be redoing the ceiling as well but it won't be a drop ceiling. Drywall will go right on the bottoms of the upstairs floor joists.
One thing I was planning to do though was use 1/2" drywall. I didn't even know thicker was available. Lowes has 1/2 and 3/8, but 3/8 is too thin and they are both the same price so I figured 1/2 would be better. Is the difference between 5/8(which I'm not sure they have) and 1/2 going to be that much different?? I was planning on making a square cutout in the drywall for the front panels. Then on the back of each panel, glue or screw a layer of lauan plywood so I'd have something solid to screw the speakers into besides the drywall board. Then after I mount it to the wall, mud in the joints so you don't see it. I'll run my wires through the studs like I did the electrical wires for the receptacles and of course seal the holes and all internal seams with silicone caulking. What do you think of all this using 1/2" for a front panel??
Also, here's a couple of major question that I really need answered even if you don't answer anything else. I'd really appreciate this. Is it necessary to have an enclosure of 0.3 cu. ft. for the speakers?? What's the magic behind that number as opposed to using the entire space between studs from floor to ceiling, or some other size?? Cause I thought that coaxials would be free air and work in any size enclosure like 6x9's do in a trunk space.
And will it make a difference to the enclosure size if I use something other than 6.5's?? I was considering 6x9's also. Don't know which would sound better. 6.5's I'm told won't distort as easy since they are round, but I thought 6x9's would generate a little more bass and since I probably won't have a sub, then I'd like more bass. But would this shake loose the drywall joint mudding after it's all finished?? I can use plenty of screws on the front panel to make it as stationary as possible. I don't know yet whether it will just be deck powered, or if I would run an amp. If I run an amp, I'd like all speakers to have 50 to no more than 100 watts RMS, but most likely it would be a bit less than 100. I saw a nice Alpine 4 channel amp that put out 55 RMS per channel and I liked it. Or USAcoustics had some nice ones too.
Thanks for taking time to read and respond. You've given me some more to consider on this now, particularly about enclosure size.
uochronos on 02/1/2005 16:54:01
where did you find a 80amp ac to dc power converter for that cheap!?!?! are you sure its an 80amp and its a converter not an inverter?
and ya i have seen a couple 10amp on ebay for like 30-80$ but i have only found on 50amp one and it was from some place online i forget where and it was 300$....
i would love to know more about this because i would love to have like a 40amp converter...
Chronos
audeogod on 02/1/2005 17:43:01
OK, don't laugh at me.
Remember, he bought it, not me.
I was gonna look for a better name on mine when I get one, I promise.
Still, I heard his and it did sound good. He had it running a Kenwood deck and a Coustic 360(older amp) and two 12" Infinity Reference's in a sealed box that he had just bought on eBay. He hooked it up to see how the Infinitys sounded bass wise.
Oh, and yeah, it's a converter. He had it running in the house. He bought it mainly to run CB equipment and test DC devices(amps, HU's, speakers) that he buys on eBay. He's an eBay junkie. That's where he got this power converter too. He didn't need that much power, but it was in his price range so he bought it.
Anyway, here it is. Without any further hesitation, his converter is..........................a Pyramid.
Now, please stop the snickering, I can hear it through my monitor.
uochronos on 02/1/2005 18:12:10
it must be amassive to handle 80amps though... and why would i laugh at it ebing pyramid... its not like a converter can make something sound bad... it just cant imagine finding a 80amp convert for less then like 200$.... it takes some big beefy parts to pull that much current.
Chronos
audeogod on 02/1/2005 19:11:16
You know that's what I thought too, but his power supply is about the size of a large battery charger. Not the ones on wheels, but the portable ones with a carry strap on top. I didn't question it cause I've seen some chargers that were also made for quick starting a car that could output as much as 50 amps. It says 80 amps on the front.
uochronos on 02/1/2005 19:13:16
its a converter though not a battery charger? wow he got a hell of a deal then... the only one i could find when i was looking was a 50amp for 300$...
Chronos
audeogod on 02/1/2005 19:13:59
Oh, by the way, I think he got it used on eBay. Probably got lucky on the price. Like I said he's an eBay junkie. Got one of those bid sniper programs in his computer.
Crum on 02/2/2005 10:43:33
With regards to your questions about the enclosure . . .
Since these speakers are going in your house, we're assuming that you'll prefer SQ over SPL. Creating an enclosed space will create a better SQ system, because the enclosure will allow for extended bass response. However, it is important that the space not be too small. If the enclosure space is too small, the speaker will not reproduce low frequencies very well. (Both of these notes are from MA Audio speaker instructions.)
Where the .3 cf comes from, I cannot say. But I can tell you that I've been researching 8" subs for my truck, and a .3 cf sealed enclosure for an 8" woofer is pretty common. My gut feeling is that this enclosure size would be appropriate for either 6 1/2 or 6x9 speakers.
I don't think Swez would mention .3 cf off the cuff. If he can't help you, Victor seems to really enjoy designing boxes. Either of these guys will likely have the knowledge to provide you with more detailed, helpful information.
Crum
audeogod on 02/2/2005 18:06:48
Well this post is getting long now so probably won't get much more attention. Last things I'll say here are:
Yeah, it's gotta have some SQ. I don't much care for SPL, but some bass is nice so it packs a good punch and doesn't sound dull. I'll likely take your advice on the 0.3 enclosure. Seems that I could just make it 12 x 12 and about the depth of a 2x4 to do that. I'll calculate it before I make it to be sure.
Also, I checked with my friend last night on that power supply. He corrected me, I was wrong on it's output power. It's a 40 amp supply, not 80. Sorry for making everyone's mouths water with excitement of maybe getting one. He said it's a little larger than a standard battery charger. Not much though. And I believe that 40 amps would put out enough for me to run a HU and a amp if I wanted one.
I think I pretty much have this whole design worked out. All I need to do is decide whether to go with 6.5's or 6x9's. I think I'll wait and see what I find for sale and how it impresses me before I make up my mind definitely.
One more thing unrelated to this. What is that box at the bottom of this page that has names of people logged in for? What I mean is everybody has a number beside their name except me. Mine is always zero. How come?
I have ALWAYS wanted a car stereo in the house. Like Swez said, the speakers are more robust . To me they just seem beefier in general than regular house speakers. Plus I like the colors and different designs and all. Man, I even like the way the coaxials look with the speakers all made together, even though they don't sound as good as separates.
Soon as I get some money goin', I'm gonna start one up in my pool table room. The TV is going to be in the corner up on a wooden shelf and in the front of that shelf I'm going to put the HU of my choice so that you just see the front of it like you would in a car. Run speakers in the walls, probably 6.5's, biggest round speaker I know of. Even 6x9's wouldn't be too bad to me. I might even throw in a good amp for the speakers, don't know yet. Probably no subs either. All of this is because I can still shoot pool and no audio equipment would be in the way. But I can still have cool looks and good sounds. Plus the pool room is going to have pictures of old cars like the 67 and 70 Chevelle, or 57 Chevy. It will be all about auto and audio.
Any suggestions on what to do?? Not on brands, I've got my choices. I mean construction wise. I figure the space between the studs in the walls can serve as a enclosure for the speakers. I can even seal it up with silicone and have a drywall front panel, just like the rest of the walls in the room. Drywall board is kind of dense, but not like 3/4 MDF. I could make the front panels of MDF and just paint and mud it into the rest of the sheetrock. I don't think you'd be able to tell it was different.
Speakers will be a little higher than ear level, so it won't be blaring right in your ears, and the sound will fill the room that way. Rather than having one speaker per wall, I'd put two speakers in a wall and two more speakers in the opposite wall on the other side of the room. Kind of like in a car, two in front, and two in back. I could even do subs that way if I wanted to. But probably not.
Right now I have a home stereo in there with speakers up on the walls and a little 8" sub box with the main unit on a bench. It's not really in the way, but it could sound better. And look better too. I don't want to see any cords running to speakers.
I know this is a forum about car audio, but It's nice to deviate a little and still be within the realm of it.
Replies (16)
uochronos on 02/1/2005 02:07:25
i just browsed over your article here so hopefully i';m not saying something you already adressed... but how are you going to power it?
my dad and i put a HU and 4 speakers in his shop but it took use forever to find a AC adaptor that had the 5amps capability the HU needed to run..
now a new HU would take around 10amps to run...
then you start getting amplifiers and your talking 50+amps of power needed...
honestly alot of home speakers are quite robust if your buying parts... for instance Adire makes home speakers as well as car speakers. and they make some really robust speakers.
also maybe you could use the HU as the source unit and use car speakers but use home plate amps to power it. these well plug into an outlet in the wall.
Chronos
15-11-1988 on 02/1/2005 04:52:44
15-11-1988 on 02/1/2005 05:00:21
You could try putting car speakers into an older home system. I did it to my sony sterio it is about 30 years old and gives out 60 watt over 4 chennels I simply un screwed the old 6.5 and put in the new ones and it sounds good enough not as good as a car system but its good enough.
audeogod on 02/1/2005 08:17:32
Actually I didn't mention power supply. I plan to use a pretty healthy one. A friend of mine has one that puts out 80 amps, and he only paid about $75 for it. I figure I can get one like that.
Also, the point of this for me is that it be about cars and car audio. I would only use car audio gear. For one thing, the head units I think just have better features. Not only being compact, but it just spits the CD out when you hit eject. I hate home receivers that take more than a second or two cause of the 5 disc changer spinning around. Also take longer to load with CD's. I'm sure not all of them do, but the two that I have do. So does my 3 disd DVD player. I hate that.
So, I'll use car gear. Plus it will be a unique conversation piece. Look cool and all. People will say, "how'd you do that?", when they come to play pool.
swez on 02/1/2005 08:32:31
Drywall is plenty good for speaker mounting if you stay with small format ones under 10". Especially when using 5/8" thickness and studs are on 16" ctrs. Would be a good idea to fabricate a sealed enclosure and pack with insulation too. Frame it into the studs with 2x4's to create the enclosure and figure about 0.3 cf for the enclosure itself.
Also, pre-wire all speakers from source unit location to speakers. If you have a drop ceiling, just pop the panels and use a push stick (6-8 foot long, 1" X 1" STOCK IS FINE) with an eye screw on trailing end of the stick for tying off wires as you pull them along. We do this manuver all the time when wiring DMX systems for restaurants, hotels, gas stations and what not. That way, all wiring is hidden above tiles and behind drywall.
That'll do ya just fine,
Swez
Crum on 02/1/2005 09:58:59
I agree with Swez - use some 2x4s and you will essentially be building an enclosure within your wall. If you discover you have less than 5/8" drywall, you could always create a plywood/MDF face on which you could mount the speakers. Then use some trim around the edges to transition back to the drywall.
Assuming your house is built with 2x4 studs on 16" centers, frame the horizontal members of your "box" with 2x4s on 12" centers. This will leave you with a space 14 1/2" x 10 1/2" x 3 1/2" = .308 cf. If you need to create a face, you can easily make it 12" x 12" and secure it to the horizontal bracing. Just be sure that the speaker wire is easily accessable after the "box" is built.
The small space that you will be cutting out to create your box will be easy to patch back. But before you begin the project, know that if your wife painted the room with an eggshell finish, you will be repainting the entire wall, not just the patch. Also double check that your studs are 16" o.c. - if you're putting a speaker in the cavity next to a door, window, or opening, you may not have the full 16" cavity. Lastly when cutting, look out for recepticles and switches on both sides of the wall your going to cut - nothing blows a circuit and fries you quicker than cutting a live wire.
When I put surround sound in my house, I made 11" x 11" recessed boxes on two walls in the same locations you're describing. I measured twice, then crossed my fingers, then started drilling up through my crawlspace to the cavities in the wall. All of the speaker wires then terminated into jacks behind the TV. I now just plug from my receiver to the jacks behind the TV.
If you follow my lead, this may also be the proper time to start planning on putting speakers to your deck outside. . .
Crum
Buickman94 on 02/1/2005 16:14:16
AC to DC adaptors can be found all over the place. The system i just built uses a 10amp 13.8 volt AC/DC converter that i found on ebay for about $40. Radio Shack also makes them i beleive. Adding additional amplifiers may cause you problems though. Why not jsut use a home theater receiver that is 4 ohm capable?
audeogod on 02/1/2005 16:49:41
WOW!!!! Some wonderful responses here. Thank you all.
Ok, some information on this pool room. It's in a now finished basement that I built and wired up myself. So the 2x4's are on 16" centers and I pretty much remember where all the wire was run in at. But I'll be seeing it all again soon cause I paneled the room out when I finished it, but I am now changing all of that to drywall cause I'm not satisfied with the paneling look anymore. I will be redoing the ceiling as well but it won't be a drop ceiling. Drywall will go right on the bottoms of the upstairs floor joists.
One thing I was planning to do though was use 1/2" drywall. I didn't even know thicker was available. Lowes has 1/2 and 3/8, but 3/8 is too thin and they are both the same price so I figured 1/2 would be better. Is the difference between 5/8(which I'm not sure they have) and 1/2 going to be that much different?? I was planning on making a square cutout in the drywall for the front panels. Then on the back of each panel, glue or screw a layer of lauan plywood so I'd have something solid to screw the speakers into besides the drywall board. Then after I mount it to the wall, mud in the joints so you don't see it. I'll run my wires through the studs like I did the electrical wires for the receptacles and of course seal the holes and all internal seams with silicone caulking. What do you think of all this using 1/2" for a front panel??
Also, here's a couple of major question that I really need answered even if you don't answer anything else. I'd really appreciate this. Is it necessary to have an enclosure of 0.3 cu. ft. for the speakers?? What's the magic behind that number as opposed to using the entire space between studs from floor to ceiling, or some other size?? Cause I thought that coaxials would be free air and work in any size enclosure like 6x9's do in a trunk space.
And will it make a difference to the enclosure size if I use something other than 6.5's?? I was considering 6x9's also. Don't know which would sound better. 6.5's I'm told won't distort as easy since they are round, but I thought 6x9's would generate a little more bass and since I probably won't have a sub, then I'd like more bass. But would this shake loose the drywall joint mudding after it's all finished?? I can use plenty of screws on the front panel to make it as stationary as possible. I don't know yet whether it will just be deck powered, or if I would run an amp. If I run an amp, I'd like all speakers to have 50 to no more than 100 watts RMS, but most likely it would be a bit less than 100. I saw a nice Alpine 4 channel amp that put out 55 RMS per channel and I liked it. Or USAcoustics had some nice ones too.
Thanks for taking time to read and respond. You've given me some more to consider on this now, particularly about enclosure size.
uochronos on 02/1/2005 16:54:01
where did you find a 80amp ac to dc power converter for that cheap!?!?! are you sure its an 80amp and its a converter not an inverter?
and ya i have seen a couple 10amp on ebay for like 30-80$ but i have only found on 50amp one and it was from some place online i forget where and it was 300$....
i would love to know more about this because i would love to have like a 40amp converter...
Chronos
audeogod on 02/1/2005 17:43:01
OK, don't laugh at me.
Remember, he bought it, not me.
I was gonna look for a better name on mine when I get one, I promise.
Still, I heard his and it did sound good. He had it running a Kenwood deck and a Coustic 360(older amp) and two 12" Infinity Reference's in a sealed box that he had just bought on eBay. He hooked it up to see how the Infinitys sounded bass wise.
Oh, and yeah, it's a converter. He had it running in the house. He bought it mainly to run CB equipment and test DC devices(amps, HU's, speakers) that he buys on eBay. He's an eBay junkie. That's where he got this power converter too. He didn't need that much power, but it was in his price range so he bought it.
Anyway, here it is. Without any further hesitation, his converter is..........................a Pyramid.
Now, please stop the snickering, I can hear it through my monitor.
uochronos on 02/1/2005 18:12:10
it must be amassive to handle 80amps though... and why would i laugh at it ebing pyramid... its not like a converter can make something sound bad... it just cant imagine finding a 80amp convert for less then like 200$.... it takes some big beefy parts to pull that much current.
Chronos
audeogod on 02/1/2005 19:11:16
You know that's what I thought too, but his power supply is about the size of a large battery charger. Not the ones on wheels, but the portable ones with a carry strap on top. I didn't question it cause I've seen some chargers that were also made for quick starting a car that could output as much as 50 amps. It says 80 amps on the front.
uochronos on 02/1/2005 19:13:16
its a converter though not a battery charger? wow he got a hell of a deal then... the only one i could find when i was looking was a 50amp for 300$...
Chronos
audeogod on 02/1/2005 19:13:59
Oh, by the way, I think he got it used on eBay. Probably got lucky on the price. Like I said he's an eBay junkie. Got one of those bid sniper programs in his computer.
Crum on 02/2/2005 10:43:33
With regards to your questions about the enclosure . . .
Since these speakers are going in your house, we're assuming that you'll prefer SQ over SPL. Creating an enclosed space will create a better SQ system, because the enclosure will allow for extended bass response. However, it is important that the space not be too small. If the enclosure space is too small, the speaker will not reproduce low frequencies very well. (Both of these notes are from MA Audio speaker instructions.)
Where the .3 cf comes from, I cannot say. But I can tell you that I've been researching 8" subs for my truck, and a .3 cf sealed enclosure for an 8" woofer is pretty common. My gut feeling is that this enclosure size would be appropriate for either 6 1/2 or 6x9 speakers.
I don't think Swez would mention .3 cf off the cuff. If he can't help you, Victor seems to really enjoy designing boxes. Either of these guys will likely have the knowledge to provide you with more detailed, helpful information.
Crum
audeogod on 02/2/2005 18:06:48
Well this post is getting long now so probably won't get much more attention. Last things I'll say here are:
Yeah, it's gotta have some SQ. I don't much care for SPL, but some bass is nice so it packs a good punch and doesn't sound dull. I'll likely take your advice on the 0.3 enclosure. Seems that I could just make it 12 x 12 and about the depth of a 2x4 to do that. I'll calculate it before I make it to be sure.
Also, I checked with my friend last night on that power supply. He corrected me, I was wrong on it's output power. It's a 40 amp supply, not 80. Sorry for making everyone's mouths water with excitement of maybe getting one. He said it's a little larger than a standard battery charger. Not much though. And I believe that 40 amps would put out enough for me to run a HU and a amp if I wanted one.
I think I pretty much have this whole design worked out. All I need to do is decide whether to go with 6.5's or 6x9's. I think I'll wait and see what I find for sale and how it impresses me before I make up my mind definitely.
One more thing unrelated to this. What is that box at the bottom of this page that has names of people logged in for? What I mean is everybody has a number beside their name except me. Mine is always zero. How come?
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