Thinking of pairing these two up, 1 alpine type-s 12" and a rockford fosgate 201s. little research has told me that the type-s can handle up to 200w rms and that is exactly how much the amp puts out when bridged, both at 4ohms. the thing i'm concerned about is that i read an article where it said that you should not connect an amp to a sub with the same rms rating, and should look for something a little less. something to do with that wattage may vary sometimes from the signal from the amp to the sub and actually may go over the max for the sub, and in turn slowly melt or blow out or destory your sub. is that true? what do u guys think? thank you!
Replies (10)
musak99 on 01/31/2005 06:05:52
basically stuck w/ sub because i'm getting a wicked deal on it, but the amp can vary. i have been offered this amp though for 90bux cdn and i believe that's a good price since i look around and prices new would be around 180bux. anyways, if not this amp, could u guys reccomend me another one within this price range that'll match the type s? i've been looking at the alpine M350 as well. thank you
Victor on 01/31/2005 07:14:46
who was the dumb a s s who told you that sub-amp with the matching power shud not be used together??
more the power, better the sound..
wait a sec and dont misunderstand the above statement.
it does not mean that you give 500wrms to a 200wrms sub.. then it shalldefinitely blow.
There is a theory which states something like the dynamic head room.
33% more power gives the cleanest sound.
that means giving 250wrms -266wrms to a 200wrms sub will get the best out of it in terms of sound quality ,transient response and performance.
This theory applies not only to the subs but to all the speakers and amp combinations.
what you have to match is the ohmage and the gain settings on the amp.
what you should buy here is a 200wrms-250wrms @ 4 ohms- monobloc amp, which has subsonic filter on it.bass boost and other features could be usefultoo provided you know how topuse them properly.
what brand or specific product you buy is subjective but the basic specs shud be as stated above.
comments...??
Victor...
swez on 01/31/2005 08:01:40
Do you have the model number of the sub you are getting?
It's important that we know this so we can recommend the proper amp to match up with your sub. Said Alpine type S series and these are all DVC (dual coil) subs. They come in 2 flavors... 2+2 and 4+4 ohm units. Depending on the one you are getting, will determine the choice of amp used.
About power... using an amp with more RMS power than sub is rated for... IS A GOOD THING! This gives clean, unclipped signals to the speakers or sub. As Victor mentioned a 30% higher power rating on amp is no problem for a given speaker or sub when gain settings are done properly. Even a 50% larger amp is OK, if we use that power intelligently.
It not just how loud we can get the bass or sound, it about loud, but clean, undistorted power to our speakers. It also allows the amp to run cooler, more efficient and when done correctly, we get pure audio.
FYI: In Pro Audio installs, we use very large amps to power the subs. The sub may be rated @ 1500 Wrms, but we often use amps that provide > 2000 Wrms. Why? Bass is very dynamic. It can have very large spikes that can often press the amp beyond it's normal limits. It that sub gets a heavily clipped bass signal for an extended period of time, it will fail. However, with the larger amp, they can take that spike and feed a clean signal to the sub... no damage.
See how that works?
Swez
musak99 on 02/1/2005 06:23:03
awesome, thanks for the info guys. so at least now i know what to look for when grabbing a sub+amp combo.
victor you said
"what you should buy here is a 200wrms-250wrms @ 4 ohms- monobloc amp,"
would it be just fine if i buy a stereo amp and then bridged provides 200rms-250rms @ 4ohms?? same thing rite??
Victor on 02/1/2005 14:19:57
Well.. in terms of power yes.. but in terms of current draw NO..
A monobloc digital ( class d amps) are aimed at powering subs.. they are specific amps which use a true digital amplification circuitry which performs much better when considering production of low frequencies..
The efficiency of a monobloc amp is 80-90% while that of a 2ch a/b type amplifiers is 50-60%..
the overall current draw in this matter exceds 30-40% of the digital amp.. meaning more load on your alternato -battery meaning more load on your electricals..
a monobloc ampin this matter will prove much more better in terms of performance..
i would suggest going for a monobloc.. and the pricing would not be more that 50-70$ more than the 2 ch amp u r looking for.. the alpine MRD-301 is a good option..
read a few articles in the article section
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t10
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t27
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t24
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t12
hope this help.
comments...??
Victor...
Victor on 02/1/2005 14:56:15
hey sorry for the wrong info..that is supposed to be a MRD-501 instead of the 301.. the 501 puts out 225wrms@12V@4ohms...
which seems to be just perfect for the sub u wanna drive..
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-QiBmbxMKVWi/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=500MRDM501&g=130
if you look on the net.. you can defintely find a much better price than the one in the above link..
it has options for further upgrades too.. it is a very valuable investment you can be proud for long..
there are others from infinity- rockford- kicker- jbl and many other brands too.
but i wud personally suggest buying a monoloc rather than a 2ch class a/b amp..
Victor...
uochronos on 02/1/2005 17:00:33
for a 4ohm sub you well either need to get a mono 1 channel amp that puts out around 400watts rms at 2ohm and around 200watts rms at 4ohm... this well pull less power from your electricals
but you can us a 2 channel amp bridged for this no problem in a big 500watts rms more then a mono amp is going to be a much better choice because they draw less power then a 2 channel... but since your useing a fairly modest amp only 200-250watts rms you should have no problem whether you use a 1 channel or 2 channel...
Chronos
musak99 on 02/1/2005 21:36:56
"a 30% higher power rating on amp is no problem for a given speaker or sub when gain settings are done properly. Even a 50% larger amp is OK, if we use that power intelligently."
need a little info on this. the sub i am getting i believe handles 200rms, and the rockford 201s gives out 200rms @ 4ohms when bridged. the thing is there is now a rockford 300s for the same price as the 201s, but it puts out 300rms@4ohms. so u say a 50% larger amp is ok, which it is in this case, if i use that power intelligently. well, how would i go in doing that? i don't want to fry my sub!!! and i think it would be smarted to grab the 300s over the 201s if they are the same price
i read all that stuff u reccomend to me victor, thank you, even though now it looks like i have to do a lot more researching than i thought. car alternator output! wtf, figuring out efficeny jeez. well 1 question from all that reading, is there no such thing as a SVC 2ohm? because my friend says his sub is SVC so it would not be 2ohm correct?
uchronos, you say it's better to grab a monobloc amp because it draws less power from your alternator. ok, but what if my car would be able to power it just fine, then it'd be ok?
oh dear, the more i learn about car audio, the more i am getting lost.
Victor on 02/2/2005 00:46:43
Yes.. definitely not.. i have never seen a 2ohm SVC, and i dunno why.
if your friend has got a SVC it ought to be 4ohms.
Well car audio is not so confusing if you got your physics and maths basics clear.
anyways, regarding the choice of a 2ch( bridged amp) and a digital monobloc amp, i would personally buy a monobloc.
I understand that you are running on a shot budget, it happens to everyone. All of us have faced this crisis and gone for the wrong product in order to save some money. but most of us have been hurt very badly by the cheap selection. And we had very few people to guide us correctly.
may be thats why this site is doing so well..
Buying and setting up a good car audio system is a lenghty , time consuming, tiring and a costly process.
dont be in a hurry and buy every thing at the same time.
At this point you should invest in a good monobloc amp, which u can be proud for long.
The next time u save some money , you can upgrade the next step.
It should be a well planned process.
comments...??
Victor..
musak99 on 02/2/2005 06:03:45
ok thanks guys
i'll let ya'all know when i make the first step and hopefully we can move forward from there
thx
Replies (10)
musak99 on 01/31/2005 06:05:52
basically stuck w/ sub because i'm getting a wicked deal on it, but the amp can vary. i have been offered this amp though for 90bux cdn and i believe that's a good price since i look around and prices new would be around 180bux. anyways, if not this amp, could u guys reccomend me another one within this price range that'll match the type s? i've been looking at the alpine M350 as well. thank you
Victor on 01/31/2005 07:14:46
who was the dumb a s s who told you that sub-amp with the matching power shud not be used together??
more the power, better the sound..
wait a sec and dont misunderstand the above statement.
it does not mean that you give 500wrms to a 200wrms sub.. then it shalldefinitely blow.
There is a theory which states something like the dynamic head room.
33% more power gives the cleanest sound.
that means giving 250wrms -266wrms to a 200wrms sub will get the best out of it in terms of sound quality ,transient response and performance.
This theory applies not only to the subs but to all the speakers and amp combinations.
what you have to match is the ohmage and the gain settings on the amp.
what you should buy here is a 200wrms-250wrms @ 4 ohms- monobloc amp, which has subsonic filter on it.bass boost and other features could be usefultoo provided you know how topuse them properly.
what brand or specific product you buy is subjective but the basic specs shud be as stated above.
comments...??
Victor...
swez on 01/31/2005 08:01:40
Do you have the model number of the sub you are getting?
It's important that we know this so we can recommend the proper amp to match up with your sub. Said Alpine type S series and these are all DVC (dual coil) subs. They come in 2 flavors... 2+2 and 4+4 ohm units. Depending on the one you are getting, will determine the choice of amp used.
About power... using an amp with more RMS power than sub is rated for... IS A GOOD THING! This gives clean, unclipped signals to the speakers or sub. As Victor mentioned a 30% higher power rating on amp is no problem for a given speaker or sub when gain settings are done properly. Even a 50% larger amp is OK, if we use that power intelligently.
It not just how loud we can get the bass or sound, it about loud, but clean, undistorted power to our speakers. It also allows the amp to run cooler, more efficient and when done correctly, we get pure audio.
FYI: In Pro Audio installs, we use very large amps to power the subs. The sub may be rated @ 1500 Wrms, but we often use amps that provide > 2000 Wrms. Why? Bass is very dynamic. It can have very large spikes that can often press the amp beyond it's normal limits. It that sub gets a heavily clipped bass signal for an extended period of time, it will fail. However, with the larger amp, they can take that spike and feed a clean signal to the sub... no damage.
See how that works?
Swez
musak99 on 02/1/2005 06:23:03
awesome, thanks for the info guys. so at least now i know what to look for when grabbing a sub+amp combo.
victor you said
"what you should buy here is a 200wrms-250wrms @ 4 ohms- monobloc amp,"
would it be just fine if i buy a stereo amp and then bridged provides 200rms-250rms @ 4ohms?? same thing rite??
Victor on 02/1/2005 14:19:57
Well.. in terms of power yes.. but in terms of current draw NO..
A monobloc digital ( class d amps) are aimed at powering subs.. they are specific amps which use a true digital amplification circuitry which performs much better when considering production of low frequencies..
The efficiency of a monobloc amp is 80-90% while that of a 2ch a/b type amplifiers is 50-60%..
the overall current draw in this matter exceds 30-40% of the digital amp.. meaning more load on your alternato -battery meaning more load on your electricals..
a monobloc ampin this matter will prove much more better in terms of performance..
i would suggest going for a monobloc.. and the pricing would not be more that 50-70$ more than the 2 ch amp u r looking for.. the alpine MRD-301 is a good option..
read a few articles in the article section
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t10
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t27
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t24
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t12
hope this help.
comments...??
Victor...
Victor on 02/1/2005 14:56:15
hey sorry for the wrong info..that is supposed to be a MRD-501 instead of the 301.. the 501 puts out 225wrms@12V@4ohms...
which seems to be just perfect for the sub u wanna drive..
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-QiBmbxMKVWi/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=500MRDM501&g=130
if you look on the net.. you can defintely find a much better price than the one in the above link..
it has options for further upgrades too.. it is a very valuable investment you can be proud for long..
there are others from infinity- rockford- kicker- jbl and many other brands too.
but i wud personally suggest buying a monoloc rather than a 2ch class a/b amp..
Victor...
uochronos on 02/1/2005 17:00:33
for a 4ohm sub you well either need to get a mono 1 channel amp that puts out around 400watts rms at 2ohm and around 200watts rms at 4ohm... this well pull less power from your electricals
but you can us a 2 channel amp bridged for this no problem in a big 500watts rms more then a mono amp is going to be a much better choice because they draw less power then a 2 channel... but since your useing a fairly modest amp only 200-250watts rms you should have no problem whether you use a 1 channel or 2 channel...
Chronos
musak99 on 02/1/2005 21:36:56
"a 30% higher power rating on amp is no problem for a given speaker or sub when gain settings are done properly. Even a 50% larger amp is OK, if we use that power intelligently."
need a little info on this. the sub i am getting i believe handles 200rms, and the rockford 201s gives out 200rms @ 4ohms when bridged. the thing is there is now a rockford 300s for the same price as the 201s, but it puts out 300rms@4ohms. so u say a 50% larger amp is ok, which it is in this case, if i use that power intelligently. well, how would i go in doing that? i don't want to fry my sub!!! and i think it would be smarted to grab the 300s over the 201s if they are the same price
i read all that stuff u reccomend to me victor, thank you, even though now it looks like i have to do a lot more researching than i thought. car alternator output! wtf, figuring out efficeny jeez. well 1 question from all that reading, is there no such thing as a SVC 2ohm? because my friend says his sub is SVC so it would not be 2ohm correct?
uchronos, you say it's better to grab a monobloc amp because it draws less power from your alternator. ok, but what if my car would be able to power it just fine, then it'd be ok?
oh dear, the more i learn about car audio, the more i am getting lost.
Victor on 02/2/2005 00:46:43
Yes.. definitely not.. i have never seen a 2ohm SVC, and i dunno why.
if your friend has got a SVC it ought to be 4ohms.
Well car audio is not so confusing if you got your physics and maths basics clear.
anyways, regarding the choice of a 2ch( bridged amp) and a digital monobloc amp, i would personally buy a monobloc.
I understand that you are running on a shot budget, it happens to everyone. All of us have faced this crisis and gone for the wrong product in order to save some money. but most of us have been hurt very badly by the cheap selection. And we had very few people to guide us correctly.
may be thats why this site is doing so well..
Buying and setting up a good car audio system is a lenghty , time consuming, tiring and a costly process.
dont be in a hurry and buy every thing at the same time.
At this point you should invest in a good monobloc amp, which u can be proud for long.
The next time u save some money , you can upgrade the next step.
It should be a well planned process.
comments...??
Victor..
musak99 on 02/2/2005 06:03:45
ok thanks guys
i'll let ya'all know when i make the first step and hopefully we can move forward from there
thx
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