First of all let me say hello! I’m new to this forum just stumbled on it while looking up stuff. I guess I have too many questions to ask so I though I would just list my system setup and see if anyone had any objections.
This system will be going in a 95 Ford Probe GT, a project car that I have been working on for 1 year. Ok so here goes:
Headunit: Kenwood kdc-619 (50x4 peak and rated at 22x4 watts) Although not the best HD I chose it because of its mp3 playback plus I’m not really into dolphins swimming around in my HU display;)
Speakers: Pioneer ts-a1667 3-way 6.5” 200peak and 50rms front and same 6x9 300peak and 80rms in back. (They came in the car, would they be ok?)
Speaker amp: have not decided yet, should I run them through the HU or get a 4-ch amp?
Ok and now the sub system. It was originally going to be 4 10” Kenwood 4ohm tornado subs 600peak each 150rms in 2 Qlogic sealed boxes run by 2 Kenwood kac-728s amps 600peak each about 300 bridged at 4 ohm. However after trying 2 of the subs with one amp in my Avenger the SQ was not what I hoped for. The best sound I was able to get from them was running them in a series hooked up to the amp bridged so the subs were 8ohm and since the amp was 300watts at 4 oh I was giving the subs I think less than 100watts each. I tried stereo 150x2 at 4ohm but even though I was sending more power SPL was not better and SQ was worse.
Now I have decided to forget about the 4 10” sub theory. Where as before I wanted the big system that could move a lot of air now I’m going for quality over quantity. Only problem is I don’t have much more to spend on this car. So here is what I’m going with now:
Sub: 1 Alumapro Alchemy 4ohm 12” 600peak 300rms (From what I know this is one of the best subs for SQ also ive heard they do very well in a single sub systems saving me money, room, and weight. Plus I got a good deal on it. This sub, I want to mount where the spare tire is in a .88cf sealed box.
Amp: all I have are the Kenwood amps and like I said not much more money to spend. So here is my questions: How well will a Kenwood kac-728s hooked up to this sub bridged putting about 300rms to it do the job. If it wouldn’t I would probably go with a USACOUSTICS amp which I don’t have the money for (ive heard great things about these amps)
Any opinions/comments about all the components of this system would be very welcome. And thank you for reading all that.
Replies (7)
Tray on 07/3/2003 16:01:55
OK, I'll just work my way through I guess.
Probe. Good medium to get you started. Hatch glass will help improve SPL response.
Kenwood HU - Not a bad choice. To me, this is one of the least important parts of the system. (Unless you go with Rampage or equivalent).
Pioneer components - Good upgrade from stock, and with a little bit of power, should sound just fine.
Speaker amp - Highly recommended to get a 4 ch amp to run those pioneers. You don't have to go huge, but something around the 30x4 - 50x4 RMS would do wonders.
Kenwood Amp - I didn't see the 728s, but would venture to guess that the 729s is very similar, if not the same, just new model year. This should push that sub just fine. As with other amplifiers on the same level as the Kenwood though, the 300 may be a bit exaggerated, but just don't clip it, and you should be fine.
I don't have a ton of experience with USAcoustics amps, but did install one for a friend, and was not impressed at all.
Swez on 07/4/2003 16:53:23
Agree pretty much with Tray here as well. A good 4 channel amp to your interior speakers will make a notable difference over using the HU amps. USX-4065 is a very solid amp and not very expensive either.
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/us_acoustics.html
As for your Kenwood ampL http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-TMPXIvc4NCD/ProdView.asp?i=113KAC728S&s=0
A discontinued model but is 2 channel and can be bridged to a mono amp and nets ~275 watts RMS @ 4 ohm laods. Not a bad match with your single 4 ohm sub. Good SQ sub too !
About the Alumapro 12" sub, I cannot locate much useful data on that sub. Intuitively, I would gestimate the sub will work well in a 1.0 - 1.25 cf sealed enclosure. If the box is too small, low bass will be minimal and lots of 50-80 Hz punch... but not great SQ.
With a larger box, low end bass 35 Hz and up are possible with much better linear response curves. The type of enclosure used, is the most important performance parameter of a subs performance characteristics. Also, depending on the type of music you like best, the box parameters can be modified to perform best for the type of music you like.
Say more on your sub OK... Is this a 12" , 4 ohm, single voilce coil version? If yes, a very good match for the amp(s) you have now.
Swez
PS Do you have a web site link that gives the Thiel/Small parameters of this sub? Qts, Qms, VAS, X-max, Fs and the like. These are usually part of the owners manual and often in .pdf file data
triumph1902 on 07/5/2003 02:42:27
Thanx for the replies! Definitely going to get a 4ch amp to run the speakers. Also glad you guys thing the Kenwood amp will work just fine, I was a bit worried about that. As for the sub Swez here is that info you asked for:
12", 4 ohm, single voice coil
Fs: 22 Hz
Qms: 3.58
Qes: 0.44
Qts: 0.39
Vas: 3.8 Ft3
Xmax: 12 mm
I don’t know too much about this stuff so I’m oblivious to those terms but anyway there they are. As for the enclosure I too thought .88cf sealed was bit too small but alumapro recommends .75-1.00cf with .88 being optimal sealed enclosure. I have seen these subs in action at my local car audio shop and I was kind of aware that they require unusually small and very well sealed 1”mdf enclosures. I’m thinking about building it myself but never made one before so I’ll make sure to read up on box building.
P.S. I was actually looking at the USX-4065, it seemed like a very nice amp at a great price. Are there any other 4ch amps I should consider or is this the best at around that price?
Swez on 07/5/2003 07:03:24
The USX -4065 is the best value and performance 4 channel amp I know about. Sure, you can find cheaper units, but the quality, reliability and performance are not up to what these amps can do.
Also, you can pay more for a big name amp, but not get much more in terms of performance. Yes... RF, MTX, JL and other well known brands are available in that power range... but if you look at costs per watts... US Acoustics is where I put my "best value" stamp on .
On your sub, seems like this one is designed to operate best in small enclosures. Whan I see a range like the one you noted, I usually shoot for the middle as this is a good balance between adequate lows and accurate transient bass response.
Really depends on the music you like best. Smaller sealed boxes tend to roll off the low end bass (below 45 Hz) rather quickly. Good for Rock, Techno and Dance/trance music. If you like R&B, Rap, Hip Hop etc., then gong to a slightly larger end of the range works well for low bass tones.
About your box... since this is going to be a single 12" and only 300 RMS , using 3/4" MDF is more than adequate for a solid box design.
If you had 3 of these and 1000 watts of amping power, then a 1" thick box may make sense.
Finally, measure the space you have available to mount this sub enclosure and all. If you plan to do a tire well mount, you may not need much of a box at all. Some guys just brace the well so it is rigid and minimize rattles. Then install a face panel to mount the sub and back fill the well until proper cf dimensions are obtained.
Think outside the box if possible here. It might save you some time and expense if a full boxed enclosure is not possible. My rough calculations show an air space of 0.88 - 1.0 ft^3 will require and exterior enclosure of 1.33 - 1.50 ft^3.
To give you a rough idea of what will fit, get a cardboard box of 12" x 12" x 12" and see how well that fits into your well. Can adjust the D a bit, but your baffle plate will need to be ~14" x 14" or larger, to mount the sub and cover the well adequately.
Think it through a bit and see what options you can derive for this one. This could be a very interesting experiment. My neighbor has a 91' Probe GT and I can look at his well space for some ideas... when he gets back from vacation.... (end of next week)
Swez
triumph1902 on 07/6/2003 02:57:11
The panel over the wheel well would make everything much easier but there is a problem with sealing the panel over the well. Anyway before I get into that here are the measurements of the well: D-7”, L-27”, W-26”. The subwoofer from the mounting surface to the bottom of the magnet is 6” so 7”depth would leave 1” clearance which I think would be fine. Now here is the problem. The sheet metal that makes up the trunk floor is not flat but has countless ½” tall ridges that run even in the well. I’m sure this makes it stronger but if placing a flat board on top of it, it would leave many open spaces. I’m not sure how well sealer would work here because the gaps would be ½” tall and some about 4 even 5 inches wide. I did think of a way to overcome this but I’m not sure how well it would work and if it would be worth it. I thought getting a plexiglass sheet and using urethane windshield adhesive to seal it to the trunk floor. In combination with screws this should create a strong airtight seal. And if that doesn’t work out I could always go back to just throwing a box in the well. The recommended box dimensions are: 16.5”W 13”L and 8”D. I figure those to be the inside dimensions because they would yield a 0.87cf volume. As for the sound I would mostly play rap (2pac to be exact) on this system, however I still like the best of both worlds. I don’t want too much low base so much so that it drowns out the words but still I don’t want the bass so crisp that all the low bass rolls off like you said. Years ago I got to sit in this guy’s car and hear his system. He had a Civic and in there he had 2 tens in a sealed box. I don’t remember what kind the subs were but he was running them with an Art series PPI amp. He had that system tuned such that the bass did numb you but at the same time it was precise and clear. It blended perfectly with his highs. That perfect balance is what I strive for with this system.
xplicitblitzboi on 07/6/2003 14:29:00
well i commend the guy with the civic as those amps are still a coveted item to this day. PPI's older stuff is some of the best amp material you can get your hands on. Sounds like you are doing pretty good on your ideas and such. I dont really get what you are saying, were you planning on sealing the MDF to the sheet metal? i guess that wouldnt work too well with the ridges, so the plexiglass should do okay. You wont get the quality with the kenwood amps that you heard from the PPIs but it should still sound nice. 1 10 is a good balance when you dont have a completely upgraded system and you want to fill in the low end of your system.
also with the amp. you could look into the JBL p80.4 if you dont want to go with the US acoustics amp. they are both great amps, and the 80.4 can be found at good prices on Etronics and ebay as well.
Blitz
Swez on 07/6/2003 15:47:51
QUOTE: "the measurements of the well: D-7”, L-27”, W-26”.
Is this an almost square tire well and are the edges tappered as it goes down into the bottom of the well? If yes, the air space is
~2.85 ft^3 here. (or a tad less if tapered)
Also the fact that your woofer is 6" in depth.... a 1" air gap may be a bit tight to properly cool the sub, if it has a vented pole piece coming through the magnet structure.
As for the ribbing mentioned... that can be overcome by using a compression type neoprene (or window sealing gasket material) gasketing materials and making a wood frame from 1"x 1" or even 2" x 2" wood stock that is knotched to accomodate the ribbing with a reasonably snug fit. Any minor air gaps can be sealed with silicone as you mentioned earlier.
If you don't mind making a psodo-platform that raises the sub baffel plate by at least 1", this will work. Then install a soft seal gasket to mount the baffle plate (panel) tightly to the raise platform. Neoprene or window gasketing material will be the airtight seal between the wood framing and sub mounting panel.
If you go this route, the only other thing left to do, is back fill the well with some form of rigid or semi rigid material to net the proper air space for your woofer. Am thinking sand bags might work well here, if the weight does not get too out of hand. This would in effect, eliminate the need for a conventional box enclosure. The bags will have to be secured so they do not bounce if you hit a bad rut and the bag jumps and hits the woofer basket.
We don't want to mess with suspension and handling characteristics of the car here either. Adding 50 lbs won't be a problem, but if over 100 lbs, that may affect handling.
Can you get a picture of this in your mind? The tricks are overcoming the ribbing so you get an air tight seal, backfilling the well with some form of material that will not add excess weight, but be rigid enough, not to absorb too much rear wave bass energy and raise the sub mouning platform enough to net adequate air space for cooling vent.
Of coarse, making this all look cool in the process is also a key aspect in the design.
Comments?
Swez
This system will be going in a 95 Ford Probe GT, a project car that I have been working on for 1 year. Ok so here goes:
Headunit: Kenwood kdc-619 (50x4 peak and rated at 22x4 watts) Although not the best HD I chose it because of its mp3 playback plus I’m not really into dolphins swimming around in my HU display;)
Speakers: Pioneer ts-a1667 3-way 6.5” 200peak and 50rms front and same 6x9 300peak and 80rms in back. (They came in the car, would they be ok?)
Speaker amp: have not decided yet, should I run them through the HU or get a 4-ch amp?
Ok and now the sub system. It was originally going to be 4 10” Kenwood 4ohm tornado subs 600peak each 150rms in 2 Qlogic sealed boxes run by 2 Kenwood kac-728s amps 600peak each about 300 bridged at 4 ohm. However after trying 2 of the subs with one amp in my Avenger the SQ was not what I hoped for. The best sound I was able to get from them was running them in a series hooked up to the amp bridged so the subs were 8ohm and since the amp was 300watts at 4 oh I was giving the subs I think less than 100watts each. I tried stereo 150x2 at 4ohm but even though I was sending more power SPL was not better and SQ was worse.
Now I have decided to forget about the 4 10” sub theory. Where as before I wanted the big system that could move a lot of air now I’m going for quality over quantity. Only problem is I don’t have much more to spend on this car. So here is what I’m going with now:
Sub: 1 Alumapro Alchemy 4ohm 12” 600peak 300rms (From what I know this is one of the best subs for SQ also ive heard they do very well in a single sub systems saving me money, room, and weight. Plus I got a good deal on it. This sub, I want to mount where the spare tire is in a .88cf sealed box.
Amp: all I have are the Kenwood amps and like I said not much more money to spend. So here is my questions: How well will a Kenwood kac-728s hooked up to this sub bridged putting about 300rms to it do the job. If it wouldn’t I would probably go with a USACOUSTICS amp which I don’t have the money for (ive heard great things about these amps)
Any opinions/comments about all the components of this system would be very welcome. And thank you for reading all that.
Replies (7)
Tray on 07/3/2003 16:01:55
OK, I'll just work my way through I guess.
Probe. Good medium to get you started. Hatch glass will help improve SPL response.
Kenwood HU - Not a bad choice. To me, this is one of the least important parts of the system. (Unless you go with Rampage or equivalent).
Pioneer components - Good upgrade from stock, and with a little bit of power, should sound just fine.
Speaker amp - Highly recommended to get a 4 ch amp to run those pioneers. You don't have to go huge, but something around the 30x4 - 50x4 RMS would do wonders.
Kenwood Amp - I didn't see the 728s, but would venture to guess that the 729s is very similar, if not the same, just new model year. This should push that sub just fine. As with other amplifiers on the same level as the Kenwood though, the 300 may be a bit exaggerated, but just don't clip it, and you should be fine.
I don't have a ton of experience with USAcoustics amps, but did install one for a friend, and was not impressed at all.
Swez on 07/4/2003 16:53:23
Agree pretty much with Tray here as well. A good 4 channel amp to your interior speakers will make a notable difference over using the HU amps. USX-4065 is a very solid amp and not very expensive either.
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/us_acoustics.html
As for your Kenwood ampL http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-TMPXIvc4NCD/ProdView.asp?i=113KAC728S&s=0
A discontinued model but is 2 channel and can be bridged to a mono amp and nets ~275 watts RMS @ 4 ohm laods. Not a bad match with your single 4 ohm sub. Good SQ sub too !
About the Alumapro 12" sub, I cannot locate much useful data on that sub. Intuitively, I would gestimate the sub will work well in a 1.0 - 1.25 cf sealed enclosure. If the box is too small, low bass will be minimal and lots of 50-80 Hz punch... but not great SQ.
With a larger box, low end bass 35 Hz and up are possible with much better linear response curves. The type of enclosure used, is the most important performance parameter of a subs performance characteristics. Also, depending on the type of music you like best, the box parameters can be modified to perform best for the type of music you like.
Say more on your sub OK... Is this a 12" , 4 ohm, single voilce coil version? If yes, a very good match for the amp(s) you have now.
Swez
PS Do you have a web site link that gives the Thiel/Small parameters of this sub? Qts, Qms, VAS, X-max, Fs and the like. These are usually part of the owners manual and often in .pdf file data
triumph1902 on 07/5/2003 02:42:27
Thanx for the replies! Definitely going to get a 4ch amp to run the speakers. Also glad you guys thing the Kenwood amp will work just fine, I was a bit worried about that. As for the sub Swez here is that info you asked for:
12", 4 ohm, single voice coil
Fs: 22 Hz
Qms: 3.58
Qes: 0.44
Qts: 0.39
Vas: 3.8 Ft3
Xmax: 12 mm
I don’t know too much about this stuff so I’m oblivious to those terms but anyway there they are. As for the enclosure I too thought .88cf sealed was bit too small but alumapro recommends .75-1.00cf with .88 being optimal sealed enclosure. I have seen these subs in action at my local car audio shop and I was kind of aware that they require unusually small and very well sealed 1”mdf enclosures. I’m thinking about building it myself but never made one before so I’ll make sure to read up on box building.
P.S. I was actually looking at the USX-4065, it seemed like a very nice amp at a great price. Are there any other 4ch amps I should consider or is this the best at around that price?
Swez on 07/5/2003 07:03:24
The USX -4065 is the best value and performance 4 channel amp I know about. Sure, you can find cheaper units, but the quality, reliability and performance are not up to what these amps can do.
Also, you can pay more for a big name amp, but not get much more in terms of performance. Yes... RF, MTX, JL and other well known brands are available in that power range... but if you look at costs per watts... US Acoustics is where I put my "best value" stamp on .
On your sub, seems like this one is designed to operate best in small enclosures. Whan I see a range like the one you noted, I usually shoot for the middle as this is a good balance between adequate lows and accurate transient bass response.
Really depends on the music you like best. Smaller sealed boxes tend to roll off the low end bass (below 45 Hz) rather quickly. Good for Rock, Techno and Dance/trance music. If you like R&B, Rap, Hip Hop etc., then gong to a slightly larger end of the range works well for low bass tones.
About your box... since this is going to be a single 12" and only 300 RMS , using 3/4" MDF is more than adequate for a solid box design.
If you had 3 of these and 1000 watts of amping power, then a 1" thick box may make sense.
Finally, measure the space you have available to mount this sub enclosure and all. If you plan to do a tire well mount, you may not need much of a box at all. Some guys just brace the well so it is rigid and minimize rattles. Then install a face panel to mount the sub and back fill the well until proper cf dimensions are obtained.
Think outside the box if possible here. It might save you some time and expense if a full boxed enclosure is not possible. My rough calculations show an air space of 0.88 - 1.0 ft^3 will require and exterior enclosure of 1.33 - 1.50 ft^3.
To give you a rough idea of what will fit, get a cardboard box of 12" x 12" x 12" and see how well that fits into your well. Can adjust the D a bit, but your baffle plate will need to be ~14" x 14" or larger, to mount the sub and cover the well adequately.
Think it through a bit and see what options you can derive for this one. This could be a very interesting experiment. My neighbor has a 91' Probe GT and I can look at his well space for some ideas... when he gets back from vacation.... (end of next week)
Swez
triumph1902 on 07/6/2003 02:57:11
The panel over the wheel well would make everything much easier but there is a problem with sealing the panel over the well. Anyway before I get into that here are the measurements of the well: D-7”, L-27”, W-26”. The subwoofer from the mounting surface to the bottom of the magnet is 6” so 7”depth would leave 1” clearance which I think would be fine. Now here is the problem. The sheet metal that makes up the trunk floor is not flat but has countless ½” tall ridges that run even in the well. I’m sure this makes it stronger but if placing a flat board on top of it, it would leave many open spaces. I’m not sure how well sealer would work here because the gaps would be ½” tall and some about 4 even 5 inches wide. I did think of a way to overcome this but I’m not sure how well it would work and if it would be worth it. I thought getting a plexiglass sheet and using urethane windshield adhesive to seal it to the trunk floor. In combination with screws this should create a strong airtight seal. And if that doesn’t work out I could always go back to just throwing a box in the well. The recommended box dimensions are: 16.5”W 13”L and 8”D. I figure those to be the inside dimensions because they would yield a 0.87cf volume. As for the sound I would mostly play rap (2pac to be exact) on this system, however I still like the best of both worlds. I don’t want too much low base so much so that it drowns out the words but still I don’t want the bass so crisp that all the low bass rolls off like you said. Years ago I got to sit in this guy’s car and hear his system. He had a Civic and in there he had 2 tens in a sealed box. I don’t remember what kind the subs were but he was running them with an Art series PPI amp. He had that system tuned such that the bass did numb you but at the same time it was precise and clear. It blended perfectly with his highs. That perfect balance is what I strive for with this system.
xplicitblitzboi on 07/6/2003 14:29:00
well i commend the guy with the civic as those amps are still a coveted item to this day. PPI's older stuff is some of the best amp material you can get your hands on. Sounds like you are doing pretty good on your ideas and such. I dont really get what you are saying, were you planning on sealing the MDF to the sheet metal? i guess that wouldnt work too well with the ridges, so the plexiglass should do okay. You wont get the quality with the kenwood amps that you heard from the PPIs but it should still sound nice. 1 10 is a good balance when you dont have a completely upgraded system and you want to fill in the low end of your system.
also with the amp. you could look into the JBL p80.4 if you dont want to go with the US acoustics amp. they are both great amps, and the 80.4 can be found at good prices on Etronics and ebay as well.
Blitz
Swez on 07/6/2003 15:47:51
QUOTE: "the measurements of the well: D-7”, L-27”, W-26”.
Is this an almost square tire well and are the edges tappered as it goes down into the bottom of the well? If yes, the air space is
~2.85 ft^3 here. (or a tad less if tapered)
Also the fact that your woofer is 6" in depth.... a 1" air gap may be a bit tight to properly cool the sub, if it has a vented pole piece coming through the magnet structure.
As for the ribbing mentioned... that can be overcome by using a compression type neoprene (or window sealing gasket material) gasketing materials and making a wood frame from 1"x 1" or even 2" x 2" wood stock that is knotched to accomodate the ribbing with a reasonably snug fit. Any minor air gaps can be sealed with silicone as you mentioned earlier.
If you don't mind making a psodo-platform that raises the sub baffel plate by at least 1", this will work. Then install a soft seal gasket to mount the baffle plate (panel) tightly to the raise platform. Neoprene or window gasketing material will be the airtight seal between the wood framing and sub mounting panel.
If you go this route, the only other thing left to do, is back fill the well with some form of rigid or semi rigid material to net the proper air space for your woofer. Am thinking sand bags might work well here, if the weight does not get too out of hand. This would in effect, eliminate the need for a conventional box enclosure. The bags will have to be secured so they do not bounce if you hit a bad rut and the bag jumps and hits the woofer basket.
We don't want to mess with suspension and handling characteristics of the car here either. Adding 50 lbs won't be a problem, but if over 100 lbs, that may affect handling.
Can you get a picture of this in your mind? The tricks are overcoming the ribbing so you get an air tight seal, backfilling the well with some form of material that will not add excess weight, but be rigid enough, not to absorb too much rear wave bass energy and raise the sub mouning platform enough to net adequate air space for cooling vent.
Of coarse, making this all look cool in the process is also a key aspect in the design.
Comments?
Swez
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