On which brands/models to definitely avoid? I've noticed that some brands/models get good "reviews" from one person, and bad "review" from someone else. How much of this is brand loyalty and snobbery? Is there any way to really determine if an amp is garbage? Is a Pyramid, Legacy, Sperkomatic, etc. amp a total waste of money in ALL circumstances? Or would they be "acceptable" to someone that thinks the factory HU provides acceptable sound quality, just not enough volume? I realize you generally "get what you pay for", but why should I pay for more than I need or want, or pay for "brand name prestige"?
Replies (14)
swez on 01/17/2005 21:28:06
Asking a very good question there Gear. In general, we do get what we paid for. (unless we are super bargain hunters)
As for amps, some of the better brand names, use better internal components and more reliable circuit designs. Some are just plain well made products with brand names we generally trust.
On the flip side of the coin, cheaper off-brand names are often a decent option. (if you know how to read past the inflated specs) May have a few good features and decent power too. Just need to know
what is a true value and what arfe plain dogs.
As for speakers, it's all up to your own ears. I have heard some low budget speakers that sounded pretty good. Have also heard a few up scale brands I did not care for. It pretty subjective to the listener and preferences. (power, HU features and speaker location add much to variables)
In a nut shell, there are some very good values in off brand products out there. There are also a few dogs in main line brands. It's pretty much up to the consumer to figure out what works best for their needs and budget.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 01/17/2005 22:15:46
Give you a heads up. After dealing the paraphenalia (car audio, not the wacky tobaccy) I found that 20+ so-called speaker manufacturers use the same parts and have the same factory assemble their products. Concerning how to purchase, read this one
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=16.topic
After that, let's discuss your goals and what you want to accomplish. To be truthful, 90% of the game is installation, 10% is the equipment.
ttocs on 01/17/2005 22:54:15
"After that, let's discuss your goals and what you want to accomplish. To be truthful, 90% of the game is installation, 10% is the equipment. "
If that is the case then why are we not pluggin audiovox with a $10k insulation? I agree that a bad install can make great equipment sound bad, but I don't think a great install will make bad equipment sound great. there is only so much you can do with what you are given. I got my start installing at best buy when the best amp/sub brand they had was Jensen and was amazed when I moved to a place that had alpine, pg, and id.... I think there is a difference, but there is also alot of "snake oil" in this industry.
gearhead on 01/18/2005 01:46:57
My current goals have already been met for right at $325.
Ample Audio A414X..................$36.00(eBay, used, works great)
Pioneer CDX-FM687 changer......$92.97 (eBay, new in box)
Eclipse 3 1/2" speakers..............$70.00 (new)
Bazooka 5x7" speakers...............$48.00 (new)
Factory HU................................$0
Wire, connectors, loom, etc........$75.00 (give or take a few bucks)
I'm quite happy with the end result. I probably could have saved a few more bucks if i had researched speakers 1st and not bought the Eclipses. They were the 1st thing I purchased, and trusted the local Automotive audio store reccomendation. Bad decision. I am planning on doing another system, but I'm going to do a little more "research" and hopefully be able to know a what the most economical components are that will meet my "needs".
uochronos on 01/18/2005 14:12:20
i agree here you get very much what you pay for unless shopped really well... JL, Phoenix gold, etc all use higher end components and use proven designs this along with there name means higher prices many cheaper companies inflate the specs and make there products look better then they are. now if you look past that you can find some good bargins.
personaly i wouldnt say its 90% install... i spent weeks building a box for a cheap sub my friend had he paiud 30$ for it. built 4 boxes none of them suited his tastes the sub simply sounded horrible and just couldnt get loud enough for him...
i would say its 50% install 20% product and 30% personaly preference of what you want it to sound like... have seen a JL W6 in a crappy box and it still sounded better then most subs i have heard though not as good as it could have...
The biggest thing about trusting audio stores is remember they are going to suggest products that make them the most money and not something they dont sell... not because they are bad guys but because thats there job if they didnt do it they would likly lose there jobs.
Chronos
gearhead on 01/18/2005 15:55:59
"....many cheaper companies inflate the specs and make there products look better then they are."
Which is one of the things I'm wondering about. If an amp advertises 200w per ch, but in reality puts out 70w RMS, and my needs wont exceed 50w RMS, will that amp provide acceptable "performance"?
Victor on 01/18/2005 17:26:46
" AN IDEAL CAR AUDIO SYSTEM IS NOT NECESSARILY THE COSTLIEST ONE OR THE LOUDEST ONE, ITS THE ONE THAT BEST SUITS YOUR NEEDS"
Victor...
uochronos on 01/18/2005 17:41:15
lets say an amp by some lower end company says it puts out 1000watts and its a 4 channel amp. now in reality 1000watts is max out put at 2ohm that means each channel is 250watts max... thats more like 115-125watts rms per channel. now that same amp is also rated at 16volts... testing there amps at higher voltage inflates the specs too...
so that drops the actualy wattage down to like 90-100watts rms at 2ohm per channel... now most speakers aside from subs are 4ohm speakers so that means you only get half that maybe 50watts RMS per channel at 4ohm... so now a 1000watt amp is now a 200watt amp RMS at the ohamge you need...
now if you need an amp with 50watts rms per channel and its a good price then i would go for it.
i have bought several lower end amps for friends cars. if the price is right and the actual specs are right then go for it. just dont be confused by the games they like to play with the numbers.
the biggest differnce between cheap amps and expensive amps is the internal components and there designs... as Mr.Brownstone stated above alot of amps, speakers, and subs, especialy the cheaper end brands. this mass production and use of cheaper parts alows for them to sell them cheaper.
Chronos
ttocs on 01/18/2005 17:44:59
"Which is one of the things I'm wondering about. If an amp advertises 200w per ch, but in reality puts out 70w RMS, and my needs wont exceed 50w RMS, will that amp provide acceptable "performance"? "
There is another point to consider and that is how cleanly it puts out the pwr. Cheaper brands as we said often use cheaper parts, and put out a cheaper or not as clean sound. It doesn't matter if it is 50 or 500 watts if it is not clean.
One way to get an idea of how honest a company is, is to look at the specs and what voltage they rate them at. They may advertise 1000 watts but not at any voltage. Some amps as you increase the input voltage, you increase the output wattage. This is great but unless you do some major re-wiring of your cars electrical system you will never put more then 14-15 volts to it.
gearhead on 01/18/2005 18:52:37
"There is another point to consider and that is how cleanly it puts out the pwr."
Are you referencing THD? What are the limits of the human ear? Can the human ear tell the difference between .04% THD & .3%THD with "average" speakers?
MrBrownstone on 01/19/2005 00:57:34
If you spend $500 on equally rated (in the owner's manual) amplifiers, you'll be amazed at how little differently they sound. A poor/overrated company can't fetch $500, and a reputable company can't afford to disappoint.
BEGIN RANT
In a anutshell, very few people get what they pay for. Most pay for marketing, few for the product.
50Wx2 (read the manuals) = 50Wx2 (read the other amp manual).
Boss, legacy, etc. do have reliability issues, what I was getting at was, what is someone trying to accomplish. Trying to put 50Wx4 to replacement speakers in factory locations...Boss amp acceptible. Looking for 150x2 for high priced components...Boss 50x4 not what we're looking for.
My main concern was that there are people in this forum and others that believe that there's a whole lot of difference between JL Audio and MTX product lines. MTX offers different marketing (Circuit City vs Private dealer), but the quality of the product doesn't change by where you buy it.
Ex: Rockford Fosgate.
I challenge anyone to find a 1987-1997 model of RF that is/was cheaper per watt, is built better, or dollar for dollar --pound for pound better than the amps they have currently being sold in Best Buy. You can't. RF has never made a better product. Period.
They've been given the raspberries by private dealers because their bottom lines have been cut by NOT being able to charge Full retail on RF products anymore. However, they have the internet to blame, not RF. I've not met anyone that's purchased products in store in 2 years, and I don't see a reason why.
In any case, my argument is that there's a product for everybody, and arguing the quality of JL vs MTX if fuggin ridiculous. If you are getting a steal on either one, take it. Neither will let you down.
In the case of MTX marketing using the inches, specs to sell speakers, doesn't everybody? Chevy has been advertising that they are a better value than Honda Accord and Toyota Camry for 20 years. Why? Because those 2 cars have been the industry standard. This doesn't say that Chevy is inferior because they haven't been an industry standard in a while, just the way they present their marketing.
END RANT
swez on 01/19/2005 05:40:00
Your earlier question on THD performance... no, the AVERAGE human ear cannot detect harmonic distortion below ~2%. A typical amp rated at under 1% THD at full power, is a usable amp.
This is most true for full range amplification. The mids get muddy, the highs become shrill or sound very un-natural once we hit the 2-3% THD threshold.
In sub applications, THD #'s are not as critical. The ear can tolerate a bit more THD distortion as bass is a pretty limited frequency band. (20-150 Hz) Location of the sub, does make a difference too. If we are sitting close to a woofer that is spewing out a few % of THD, we may hear it. But, if the sub is in the trunk, most would be hard pressed to hear a 5% THD scenario, as the sub output is masked by distance and trunk space.
Hope that helps,
Swez
cplkittle on 01/19/2005 07:33:36
concerning THD, is there and industry standard calibration for the equiptment used for these tests?
concerning RMS/Peak power. I would personally never purchase a 1000w RMS / 2000w peak amplifier, since RMS calculated as .707 of the peak. An amplifier built by a company with integrity will advertise RMS power, not peak power. (JL, Diamond, Zapco, Macintosh)
ttocs on 01/19/2005 12:16:47
I will agree that when you start talking amps, most people will not be able to notice a difference in sound quality. Richard Clark has proven this with his $25,000 amp challenge. But what about speakers and HU? I do think most people can and will notice a difference in good and cheap speakers and HU's.
Kittle-I too went to school and learned how to convert peak ac voltages to RMS voltages(1/(sq root of 2) but when talking amplifiers it is not the same for what ever the reason is. A good company will rate their amps in RMS ratings but it is not the same as finding the RMS of a normal peak AC signal.
Replies (14)
swez on 01/17/2005 21:28:06
Asking a very good question there Gear. In general, we do get what we paid for. (unless we are super bargain hunters)
As for amps, some of the better brand names, use better internal components and more reliable circuit designs. Some are just plain well made products with brand names we generally trust.
On the flip side of the coin, cheaper off-brand names are often a decent option. (if you know how to read past the inflated specs) May have a few good features and decent power too. Just need to know
what is a true value and what arfe plain dogs.
As for speakers, it's all up to your own ears. I have heard some low budget speakers that sounded pretty good. Have also heard a few up scale brands I did not care for. It pretty subjective to the listener and preferences. (power, HU features and speaker location add much to variables)
In a nut shell, there are some very good values in off brand products out there. There are also a few dogs in main line brands. It's pretty much up to the consumer to figure out what works best for their needs and budget.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 01/17/2005 22:15:46
Give you a heads up. After dealing the paraphenalia (car audio, not the wacky tobaccy) I found that 20+ so-called speaker manufacturers use the same parts and have the same factory assemble their products. Concerning how to purchase, read this one
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=16.topic
After that, let's discuss your goals and what you want to accomplish. To be truthful, 90% of the game is installation, 10% is the equipment.
ttocs on 01/17/2005 22:54:15
"After that, let's discuss your goals and what you want to accomplish. To be truthful, 90% of the game is installation, 10% is the equipment. "
If that is the case then why are we not pluggin audiovox with a $10k insulation? I agree that a bad install can make great equipment sound bad, but I don't think a great install will make bad equipment sound great. there is only so much you can do with what you are given. I got my start installing at best buy when the best amp/sub brand they had was Jensen and was amazed when I moved to a place that had alpine, pg, and id.... I think there is a difference, but there is also alot of "snake oil" in this industry.
gearhead on 01/18/2005 01:46:57
My current goals have already been met for right at $325.
Ample Audio A414X..................$36.00(eBay, used, works great)
Pioneer CDX-FM687 changer......$92.97 (eBay, new in box)
Eclipse 3 1/2" speakers..............$70.00 (new)
Bazooka 5x7" speakers...............$48.00 (new)
Factory HU................................$0
Wire, connectors, loom, etc........$75.00 (give or take a few bucks)
I'm quite happy with the end result. I probably could have saved a few more bucks if i had researched speakers 1st and not bought the Eclipses. They were the 1st thing I purchased, and trusted the local Automotive audio store reccomendation. Bad decision. I am planning on doing another system, but I'm going to do a little more "research" and hopefully be able to know a what the most economical components are that will meet my "needs".
uochronos on 01/18/2005 14:12:20
i agree here you get very much what you pay for unless shopped really well... JL, Phoenix gold, etc all use higher end components and use proven designs this along with there name means higher prices many cheaper companies inflate the specs and make there products look better then they are. now if you look past that you can find some good bargins.
personaly i wouldnt say its 90% install... i spent weeks building a box for a cheap sub my friend had he paiud 30$ for it. built 4 boxes none of them suited his tastes the sub simply sounded horrible and just couldnt get loud enough for him...
i would say its 50% install 20% product and 30% personaly preference of what you want it to sound like... have seen a JL W6 in a crappy box and it still sounded better then most subs i have heard though not as good as it could have...
The biggest thing about trusting audio stores is remember they are going to suggest products that make them the most money and not something they dont sell... not because they are bad guys but because thats there job if they didnt do it they would likly lose there jobs.
Chronos
gearhead on 01/18/2005 15:55:59
"....many cheaper companies inflate the specs and make there products look better then they are."
Which is one of the things I'm wondering about. If an amp advertises 200w per ch, but in reality puts out 70w RMS, and my needs wont exceed 50w RMS, will that amp provide acceptable "performance"?
Victor on 01/18/2005 17:26:46
" AN IDEAL CAR AUDIO SYSTEM IS NOT NECESSARILY THE COSTLIEST ONE OR THE LOUDEST ONE, ITS THE ONE THAT BEST SUITS YOUR NEEDS"
Victor...
uochronos on 01/18/2005 17:41:15
lets say an amp by some lower end company says it puts out 1000watts and its a 4 channel amp. now in reality 1000watts is max out put at 2ohm that means each channel is 250watts max... thats more like 115-125watts rms per channel. now that same amp is also rated at 16volts... testing there amps at higher voltage inflates the specs too...
so that drops the actualy wattage down to like 90-100watts rms at 2ohm per channel... now most speakers aside from subs are 4ohm speakers so that means you only get half that maybe 50watts RMS per channel at 4ohm... so now a 1000watt amp is now a 200watt amp RMS at the ohamge you need...
now if you need an amp with 50watts rms per channel and its a good price then i would go for it.
i have bought several lower end amps for friends cars. if the price is right and the actual specs are right then go for it. just dont be confused by the games they like to play with the numbers.
the biggest differnce between cheap amps and expensive amps is the internal components and there designs... as Mr.Brownstone stated above alot of amps, speakers, and subs, especialy the cheaper end brands. this mass production and use of cheaper parts alows for them to sell them cheaper.
Chronos
ttocs on 01/18/2005 17:44:59
"Which is one of the things I'm wondering about. If an amp advertises 200w per ch, but in reality puts out 70w RMS, and my needs wont exceed 50w RMS, will that amp provide acceptable "performance"? "
There is another point to consider and that is how cleanly it puts out the pwr. Cheaper brands as we said often use cheaper parts, and put out a cheaper or not as clean sound. It doesn't matter if it is 50 or 500 watts if it is not clean.
One way to get an idea of how honest a company is, is to look at the specs and what voltage they rate them at. They may advertise 1000 watts but not at any voltage. Some amps as you increase the input voltage, you increase the output wattage. This is great but unless you do some major re-wiring of your cars electrical system you will never put more then 14-15 volts to it.
gearhead on 01/18/2005 18:52:37
"There is another point to consider and that is how cleanly it puts out the pwr."
Are you referencing THD? What are the limits of the human ear? Can the human ear tell the difference between .04% THD & .3%THD with "average" speakers?
MrBrownstone on 01/19/2005 00:57:34
If you spend $500 on equally rated (in the owner's manual) amplifiers, you'll be amazed at how little differently they sound. A poor/overrated company can't fetch $500, and a reputable company can't afford to disappoint.
BEGIN RANT
In a anutshell, very few people get what they pay for. Most pay for marketing, few for the product.
50Wx2 (read the manuals) = 50Wx2 (read the other amp manual).
Boss, legacy, etc. do have reliability issues, what I was getting at was, what is someone trying to accomplish. Trying to put 50Wx4 to replacement speakers in factory locations...Boss amp acceptible. Looking for 150x2 for high priced components...Boss 50x4 not what we're looking for.
My main concern was that there are people in this forum and others that believe that there's a whole lot of difference between JL Audio and MTX product lines. MTX offers different marketing (Circuit City vs Private dealer), but the quality of the product doesn't change by where you buy it.
Ex: Rockford Fosgate.
I challenge anyone to find a 1987-1997 model of RF that is/was cheaper per watt, is built better, or dollar for dollar --pound for pound better than the amps they have currently being sold in Best Buy. You can't. RF has never made a better product. Period.
They've been given the raspberries by private dealers because their bottom lines have been cut by NOT being able to charge Full retail on RF products anymore. However, they have the internet to blame, not RF. I've not met anyone that's purchased products in store in 2 years, and I don't see a reason why.
In any case, my argument is that there's a product for everybody, and arguing the quality of JL vs MTX if fuggin ridiculous. If you are getting a steal on either one, take it. Neither will let you down.
In the case of MTX marketing using the inches, specs to sell speakers, doesn't everybody? Chevy has been advertising that they are a better value than Honda Accord and Toyota Camry for 20 years. Why? Because those 2 cars have been the industry standard. This doesn't say that Chevy is inferior because they haven't been an industry standard in a while, just the way they present their marketing.
END RANT
swez on 01/19/2005 05:40:00
Your earlier question on THD performance... no, the AVERAGE human ear cannot detect harmonic distortion below ~2%. A typical amp rated at under 1% THD at full power, is a usable amp.
This is most true for full range amplification. The mids get muddy, the highs become shrill or sound very un-natural once we hit the 2-3% THD threshold.
In sub applications, THD #'s are not as critical. The ear can tolerate a bit more THD distortion as bass is a pretty limited frequency band. (20-150 Hz) Location of the sub, does make a difference too. If we are sitting close to a woofer that is spewing out a few % of THD, we may hear it. But, if the sub is in the trunk, most would be hard pressed to hear a 5% THD scenario, as the sub output is masked by distance and trunk space.
Hope that helps,
Swez
cplkittle on 01/19/2005 07:33:36
concerning THD, is there and industry standard calibration for the equiptment used for these tests?
concerning RMS/Peak power. I would personally never purchase a 1000w RMS / 2000w peak amplifier, since RMS calculated as .707 of the peak. An amplifier built by a company with integrity will advertise RMS power, not peak power. (JL, Diamond, Zapco, Macintosh)
ttocs on 01/19/2005 12:16:47
I will agree that when you start talking amps, most people will not be able to notice a difference in sound quality. Richard Clark has proven this with his $25,000 amp challenge. But what about speakers and HU? I do think most people can and will notice a difference in good and cheap speakers and HU's.
Kittle-I too went to school and learned how to convert peak ac voltages to RMS voltages(1/(sq root of 2) but when talking amplifiers it is not the same for what ever the reason is. A good company will rate their amps in RMS ratings but it is not the same as finding the RMS of a normal peak AC signal.
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