I'm planning on getting a mono-channel class D amplifier, and was wondering if i should go with dual or single voice coil subwoofers? need your opinions and expertise. thanks.
Replies (22)
UKinstaller on 12/16/2004 00:00:30
depends on how stable of an amp you are going to get and how many subs you are going to use. if you are going to use two subs, i usually suggest single voice coils because wired in parallel will give you a 2 ohm load, as opposed to dual voice coils, which give a 1 ohm load that many amps either can't handle or don't like to handle and will shut off.
how many subs and what kind of amp are you looking at??
-UK
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 00:02:51
I was looking at the Infinity Reference 1210a class D amp (1200 watt amp) and two 12" infinity subs. what do you suggest? thanks.
UKinstaller on 12/16/2004 00:11:28
which infinity subs??
-UK
MrBrownstone on 12/16/2004 00:11:56
The only considering you should have for the number of amps you want. If you are looking to expand, might want to consider how much power and how much power you want.
Basically, if you have 1, 2 or 3 woofers, and they handle 250 watts, you might want to match the overall impedance of the woofers to the amplifier's capability. for example:
If you have a 1000W amp @ 2 ohms, you would want (2) 4 ohm woofers to get the most power safely out of your amp. If you want a triple threat (3) woofers from then you'll want an amp that handle 1 ohm load (3 woofers in parallel = 1.33ohm load)
Tell us how many woofers you want to run
MrBrownstone on 12/16/2004 00:16:56
I'd suggest the Perfect 12s. If you are careful with your usage. 2 of them will handle 1000W combined really well. Just make certain you design their box about 1.25 sealed, and they'll handle a lot of power.
Becareful of using them in a vented/ported enclosure. they move quite freely as it is, and you may want to be mindful of how much power you give them.
swez on 12/16/2004 10:01:58
This amp is 2 ohms stable and puts out ~850 Wrms at 4 ohms, 1300 at 2 ohms. Need some pretty potent subs to take that kind of power. Are you planning to compete in SPL comps?
When running 2 subs, need either a pair of SVC, 4 ohms and ~ 600 RMS per sub. Will be very difficult to find an SVC sub that can handle that much RMS power.
If you go DVC subs, best to use a 2+2 DVC coil set here or an 8+8 DVC. Again, need some pretty potent subs that can take that kind of power.
The Infinity line is not well suited for your power amp. The only sub that comes close to meeting the power needs are the new Infinity Kappa Perfect12 VQ series. (4 ohm SVC, 400 RMS/sub)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qQSusr5V5U6/cgi-bin/
ProdView.asp?g=67700&id=features_and_specs&i=
108PER12VQ
Will have to do some hard shopping to get a decent price for a pair of these subs. However, if you are will to give us a budget target, we can come up with a short list of subs that will handle this amp.
Swez
PS, If you are serious on this much bass power, will need a major electrical upgrade package. This amp will draw over 100A's of current at full power. The car needs about 50-60A to run properly. The ALT and BAT combo, make up the rest. It might be a wise plan to use a 150-200A ALT and maybe a 1000 CCA rated BAT. Are you budgeting for that too?
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 11:41:22
yeah i was thinking about (2) 12" Infinity Kappa Perfect12 VQ subs with the 1210a amp. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qQSusr5V5U6/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=67700&id=features_and_specs&i=108PER12VQ
money is not really an issue (i'm not rich, i'm just looking at my options) but how much would a HO alternator cost and what about the batter you were suggesting Swez?
well how about me spending a limit of $600 on 2 12" subs and an amp. what are my choices and what are your suggestions. thanks all.
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 11:42:50
oh yeah, could someone explain a litter better what's the main difference between dual and single voice coil and which one has more options, tuning-wise.
swez on 12/16/2004 19:17:15
Chronos got a 200A ALT off E-bay for $230 I think. He can give you more details when he check in again.
Think carefully about your goals and budget here. If you are planning to compete in SPL contests, then the route you are on is a good path. However, we can get almost the same SPL from a smaller amp and ported subs. That may negate the need to upgrade your electrical system and save some cash too.
FYI: There is not a huge difference (3 dB less SPL) in a 600 watt (RMS) amp and a pair of less expensive subs. If you used a ported enclosure, it is more efficient and can equal the output SPL you would get from a 1200 Watt (RMS) amp and much more potent subs that cost much more. (sealed enclosure)
A 600 watt MONO amp will draw ~60A max current. A 1200 watt amp of similar design will pull ~120A of current. Is 3 dB really worth all that added expense and electrical upgrades? Only you can say.
A well designed system can net +140 dB (or more) bass power in a well matched sub/ported enclosure system. You may not need a larger ALT, but a solid BAT (Say Optima 800+ CCA) and some wire changes will get you a pretty fine bass engine. This will be loud, less expense and very efficient as well.
What say you?
Swez
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 22:03:16
no, i won't be planning on competing in any SPL competitions. well i was just looking into the infinity line because a friend of mine works at a local stereo store and he can get me some discount. anyways, thanks for all your advice Swez and everyone else. i'll prolly go with a smaller amp, that way, i won't have to upgrade my alternator. and save some money too.
so now my question is what kind of sub enclosure do i want? i'm looking at either sealed or ported. i know, i know, i need to tell you guys what kind of bass i want. but i don't know. this will be my first system so i'm taking all suggestions. what will sound better in an enclosed trunk? i want good souding bass and not super loud, but enough to let others hear me coming by.
swez on 12/17/2004 09:37:43
Well, the enclosure design used will dictate most of the "kind" of bass you will get.
A 600 Wrms amp, 2 x 12 subs (medium duty) will give plenty of bass to be heard. The enclosure choice is more a preference and the type of music you like best. There is no 1 perfect box.
Sealed enclosures are great for tight, high SQ, medium SPL and solid low end bump or punchy bass, as you like.
Ported boxes are more efficient and we can get a few dB more bump at port tuned frequency. Good for Rap and other music with high energy bass. These tend to be a bit less accurate and may get boomy if the port frequency is above 45 Hz.
Bandpass boxes are very efficient and can give lots of bump with medium power. The design of the BP enclosure is critical as it has to be well matched to the sub used. The biggest drawback on BP boxes are their difficulty to design and make and they too, can be very boomy around tuned frequencies. A well designed BP can net very high bass energy with low power amps. But, a poorly matched sub/box design can destroy your subs without one even hearing it.
Now, reading all that... pick your choice and then proceed.
Swez
gnehc1 on 12/17/2004 11:27:05
Swez,
I'm more of a Rap type of person. so according to what you said, i should go with a port tuned box. that's the one with the hole on top of the box, right? thanks.
uochronos on 12/17/2004 17:32:50
port a bit more then a hole in the top but yes if you like alot of music with heavy deep lows then a ported tuned box is likly for you...
a port is matched to the speaker used and box size used.. the diameter and length of the tube used for the port is what tunes it to a specific frequency.
usualy sub makers have a recommended box size and tuneing frequency. which then we just have to figure out the length and diameter of port needed to get that frequency in the box size recomended.
Also if you go with a ported box you well need a Sub Sonic Filter(SS Filter) which blocks out the frequencies below your ports tuning. for instance if you tune your box to 30hz then you well want a SS filter that well block out all sound below 30hz.
The reason for this is that below the tuning frequency your sub hardly moves and almost al sound is coming from the port this causes cooling problems and you can easily burn a voice coil causeing you to lose your sub.
any questions?
Chronos
gnehc1 on 12/18/2004 22:38:11
what does a Subsonic filter look like? where does it connect to? and how much do they usually costs?
but if i go with a sealed box, would i still need the subsonic filter?
uochronos on 12/18/2004 23:13:33
you can get sub sonic filters that plug inline with your RCA cables... some amps also have them built in. www.thezeb.com and www.partsexpress.com both sell the ones that plug into your RCA cables.
howveer you need to know what frequency your tuning your box before you buy them
they cost under 30$ usualy
Chronos
gnehc1 on 12/19/2004 02:06:21
Chronos,
i'm new to this. what's a good cut off range frequency do you think i should go with?
also, Swez says that you bought a 200A ALT from ebay, who did you get it from?
thanks,
gnehc1
gnehc1 on 12/19/2004 02:23:09
Chronos,
I took a look at the sites you mentioned and didn't know where to look for the subsonic filter. i did a search on both sites and came up short. lost and confused....
www.thezeb.com
www.partsexpress.com
swez on 12/19/2004 08:56:11
SS filters are often available on many of the newer sub amps. They are usually variable between 20 - 50 Hz. If you cannot find an amp with that feature built into it, then the Harrison Labs (F-Mods) mentioned by Chronos will work just fine. Here's where to look:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
The items you will need: 30 Hz HP filter, blocks SS below 30 Hz.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=266-248 ($26.00/pr.)
Swez
uochronos on 12/19/2004 16:43:58
sorry there bud meant to attach the link to them but forgot... was on my way out the door. i well try not to do that again...
the FMODs by harrison that swez stated is exactly what i meant though.
Chronos
gnehc1 on 12/19/2004 23:19:24
Chronos or Swez,
i guess i should go with a SS filter in the range of 20 - 50 Hz. so 30 Hz sounds like a good number. (or can you suggest for me?) I also didn't get anything when i c/p the first link you gave me.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
Also, does it matter what side of the RCA cable i plug the SS filter in? should it be on the end that connects to the HU or the end the connects to the amp, or does it matter?
thanks guys.
uochronos on 12/20/2004 00:57:57
the F-MOD's plug rigght into the RCA cables one on the left and one on the right. the price is for a pair of them...
the SS filter needs to be right around the port tuning so you well need to find out what your tuning the box too. some companies have a suggested Hz to tune too. if you choose 30hz for instance you well want a Fmods of around 35hz high pass,
Chronos
swez on 12/20/2004 07:14:24
There are no F-Mods for 35 Hz that I am aware of. The 30 Hz version will do just fine if you tune your enclosure between 30-35 Hz.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=266-248
As I mentioned before, many of the newer style Sub amps have SS filter built into them. If you find one of those, won't need any F-Mods.
OK, I think we are at a point of picking some gear out, do some careful price comparisons and then begin the system install process when you get your gear. It seems to me, dual 12's will be plenty of bass. The amp... 500-600 Wrms will give you plenty of bass and not be overly taxing on your electricals too. (60A draw max is recommended)
Do you know the present current output on your stock ALT? Can call a good autoparts dealer, give them your make, model, year and engine size. They will tell you what ALT's are available for that vehicle. You can also have it checked out at places like Pep Boys, Auto Zone or a NAPA dealer.
===================================================
Sub Amp Choices:
1. JBL BP-600.1 (max 57A, typ ~50A)
2. Kicker KX-600 (max 60A, typ ~50A)
3. Alpine MRD-M501 (max 60A, typ ~50A)
4. Infinity Reference 610a (max 60A, typ ~50A)
Any of these amps will deliver adequate power to a pair of solid subs. Have to shop em hard to find the best prices though. A google search on each item will produce a list of sellers and prices from BizRate, Pricegrabber, Nextag or e-bay.
Example: Alpine MRD-M501
http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/product_info/overview/i
ndex__cat_id--11820000,prod_id--11453436.html
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?icatid=306&stk_code=alpmrdm501&svbname=293 $254.00
This amp has a SS filter too!
===================================================
Subs:
We seem to agree on Alpine SWR series subs. The best choice in this power range is the SWR-1221D.
Buy list:
http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/product_info/overview/
index__cat_id--11940000,prod_id--7226241.html (lowest price is $103.00/sub at Discount Jungle, a few bucks more at Etronics.)
Have a look at a few amp models and stick with the Apline subs noted. Lools like ~$460.00 for amp & subs +S/H. That leaves ~100.00 for wires and misc hardware. (in your $600.00 budget)
Anymore questions?
Swez
PS We'll get to the box issues next. Once you have signaled your sub choice. Can you make your own or must buy a premade one?
Replies (22)
UKinstaller on 12/16/2004 00:00:30
depends on how stable of an amp you are going to get and how many subs you are going to use. if you are going to use two subs, i usually suggest single voice coils because wired in parallel will give you a 2 ohm load, as opposed to dual voice coils, which give a 1 ohm load that many amps either can't handle or don't like to handle and will shut off.
how many subs and what kind of amp are you looking at??
-UK
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 00:02:51
I was looking at the Infinity Reference 1210a class D amp (1200 watt amp) and two 12" infinity subs. what do you suggest? thanks.
UKinstaller on 12/16/2004 00:11:28
which infinity subs??
-UK
MrBrownstone on 12/16/2004 00:11:56
The only considering you should have for the number of amps you want. If you are looking to expand, might want to consider how much power and how much power you want.
Basically, if you have 1, 2 or 3 woofers, and they handle 250 watts, you might want to match the overall impedance of the woofers to the amplifier's capability. for example:
If you have a 1000W amp @ 2 ohms, you would want (2) 4 ohm woofers to get the most power safely out of your amp. If you want a triple threat (3) woofers from then you'll want an amp that handle 1 ohm load (3 woofers in parallel = 1.33ohm load)
Tell us how many woofers you want to run
MrBrownstone on 12/16/2004 00:16:56
I'd suggest the Perfect 12s. If you are careful with your usage. 2 of them will handle 1000W combined really well. Just make certain you design their box about 1.25 sealed, and they'll handle a lot of power.
Becareful of using them in a vented/ported enclosure. they move quite freely as it is, and you may want to be mindful of how much power you give them.
swez on 12/16/2004 10:01:58
This amp is 2 ohms stable and puts out ~850 Wrms at 4 ohms, 1300 at 2 ohms. Need some pretty potent subs to take that kind of power. Are you planning to compete in SPL comps?
When running 2 subs, need either a pair of SVC, 4 ohms and ~ 600 RMS per sub. Will be very difficult to find an SVC sub that can handle that much RMS power.
If you go DVC subs, best to use a 2+2 DVC coil set here or an 8+8 DVC. Again, need some pretty potent subs that can take that kind of power.
The Infinity line is not well suited for your power amp. The only sub that comes close to meeting the power needs are the new Infinity Kappa Perfect12 VQ series. (4 ohm SVC, 400 RMS/sub)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qQSusr5V5U6/cgi-bin/
ProdView.asp?g=67700&id=features_and_specs&i=
108PER12VQ
Will have to do some hard shopping to get a decent price for a pair of these subs. However, if you are will to give us a budget target, we can come up with a short list of subs that will handle this amp.
Swez
PS, If you are serious on this much bass power, will need a major electrical upgrade package. This amp will draw over 100A's of current at full power. The car needs about 50-60A to run properly. The ALT and BAT combo, make up the rest. It might be a wise plan to use a 150-200A ALT and maybe a 1000 CCA rated BAT. Are you budgeting for that too?
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 11:41:22
yeah i was thinking about (2) 12" Infinity Kappa Perfect12 VQ subs with the 1210a amp. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qQSusr5V5U6/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=67700&id=features_and_specs&i=108PER12VQ
money is not really an issue (i'm not rich, i'm just looking at my options) but how much would a HO alternator cost and what about the batter you were suggesting Swez?
well how about me spending a limit of $600 on 2 12" subs and an amp. what are my choices and what are your suggestions. thanks all.
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 11:42:50
oh yeah, could someone explain a litter better what's the main difference between dual and single voice coil and which one has more options, tuning-wise.
swez on 12/16/2004 19:17:15
Chronos got a 200A ALT off E-bay for $230 I think. He can give you more details when he check in again.
Think carefully about your goals and budget here. If you are planning to compete in SPL contests, then the route you are on is a good path. However, we can get almost the same SPL from a smaller amp and ported subs. That may negate the need to upgrade your electrical system and save some cash too.
FYI: There is not a huge difference (3 dB less SPL) in a 600 watt (RMS) amp and a pair of less expensive subs. If you used a ported enclosure, it is more efficient and can equal the output SPL you would get from a 1200 Watt (RMS) amp and much more potent subs that cost much more. (sealed enclosure)
A 600 watt MONO amp will draw ~60A max current. A 1200 watt amp of similar design will pull ~120A of current. Is 3 dB really worth all that added expense and electrical upgrades? Only you can say.
A well designed system can net +140 dB (or more) bass power in a well matched sub/ported enclosure system. You may not need a larger ALT, but a solid BAT (Say Optima 800+ CCA) and some wire changes will get you a pretty fine bass engine. This will be loud, less expense and very efficient as well.
What say you?
Swez
gnehc1 on 12/16/2004 22:03:16
no, i won't be planning on competing in any SPL competitions. well i was just looking into the infinity line because a friend of mine works at a local stereo store and he can get me some discount. anyways, thanks for all your advice Swez and everyone else. i'll prolly go with a smaller amp, that way, i won't have to upgrade my alternator. and save some money too.
so now my question is what kind of sub enclosure do i want? i'm looking at either sealed or ported. i know, i know, i need to tell you guys what kind of bass i want. but i don't know. this will be my first system so i'm taking all suggestions. what will sound better in an enclosed trunk? i want good souding bass and not super loud, but enough to let others hear me coming by.
swez on 12/17/2004 09:37:43
Well, the enclosure design used will dictate most of the "kind" of bass you will get.
A 600 Wrms amp, 2 x 12 subs (medium duty) will give plenty of bass to be heard. The enclosure choice is more a preference and the type of music you like best. There is no 1 perfect box.
Sealed enclosures are great for tight, high SQ, medium SPL and solid low end bump or punchy bass, as you like.
Ported boxes are more efficient and we can get a few dB more bump at port tuned frequency. Good for Rap and other music with high energy bass. These tend to be a bit less accurate and may get boomy if the port frequency is above 45 Hz.
Bandpass boxes are very efficient and can give lots of bump with medium power. The design of the BP enclosure is critical as it has to be well matched to the sub used. The biggest drawback on BP boxes are their difficulty to design and make and they too, can be very boomy around tuned frequencies. A well designed BP can net very high bass energy with low power amps. But, a poorly matched sub/box design can destroy your subs without one even hearing it.
Now, reading all that... pick your choice and then proceed.
Swez
gnehc1 on 12/17/2004 11:27:05
Swez,
I'm more of a Rap type of person. so according to what you said, i should go with a port tuned box. that's the one with the hole on top of the box, right? thanks.
uochronos on 12/17/2004 17:32:50
port a bit more then a hole in the top but yes if you like alot of music with heavy deep lows then a ported tuned box is likly for you...
a port is matched to the speaker used and box size used.. the diameter and length of the tube used for the port is what tunes it to a specific frequency.
usualy sub makers have a recommended box size and tuneing frequency. which then we just have to figure out the length and diameter of port needed to get that frequency in the box size recomended.
Also if you go with a ported box you well need a Sub Sonic Filter(SS Filter) which blocks out the frequencies below your ports tuning. for instance if you tune your box to 30hz then you well want a SS filter that well block out all sound below 30hz.
The reason for this is that below the tuning frequency your sub hardly moves and almost al sound is coming from the port this causes cooling problems and you can easily burn a voice coil causeing you to lose your sub.
any questions?
Chronos
gnehc1 on 12/18/2004 22:38:11
what does a Subsonic filter look like? where does it connect to? and how much do they usually costs?
but if i go with a sealed box, would i still need the subsonic filter?
uochronos on 12/18/2004 23:13:33
you can get sub sonic filters that plug inline with your RCA cables... some amps also have them built in. www.thezeb.com and www.partsexpress.com both sell the ones that plug into your RCA cables.
howveer you need to know what frequency your tuning your box before you buy them
they cost under 30$ usualy
Chronos
gnehc1 on 12/19/2004 02:06:21
Chronos,
i'm new to this. what's a good cut off range frequency do you think i should go with?
also, Swez says that you bought a 200A ALT from ebay, who did you get it from?
thanks,
gnehc1
gnehc1 on 12/19/2004 02:23:09
Chronos,
I took a look at the sites you mentioned and didn't know where to look for the subsonic filter. i did a search on both sites and came up short. lost and confused....
www.thezeb.com
www.partsexpress.com
swez on 12/19/2004 08:56:11
SS filters are often available on many of the newer sub amps. They are usually variable between 20 - 50 Hz. If you cannot find an amp with that feature built into it, then the Harrison Labs (F-Mods) mentioned by Chronos will work just fine. Here's where to look:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
The items you will need: 30 Hz HP filter, blocks SS below 30 Hz.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=266-248 ($26.00/pr.)
Swez
uochronos on 12/19/2004 16:43:58
sorry there bud meant to attach the link to them but forgot... was on my way out the door. i well try not to do that again...
the FMODs by harrison that swez stated is exactly what i meant though.
Chronos
gnehc1 on 12/19/2004 23:19:24
Chronos or Swez,
i guess i should go with a SS filter in the range of 20 - 50 Hz. so 30 Hz sounds like a good number. (or can you suggest for me?) I also didn't get anything when i c/p the first link you gave me.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
Also, does it matter what side of the RCA cable i plug the SS filter in? should it be on the end that connects to the HU or the end the connects to the amp, or does it matter?
thanks guys.
uochronos on 12/20/2004 00:57:57
the F-MOD's plug rigght into the RCA cables one on the left and one on the right. the price is for a pair of them...
the SS filter needs to be right around the port tuning so you well need to find out what your tuning the box too. some companies have a suggested Hz to tune too. if you choose 30hz for instance you well want a Fmods of around 35hz high pass,
Chronos
swez on 12/20/2004 07:14:24
There are no F-Mods for 35 Hz that I am aware of. The 30 Hz version will do just fine if you tune your enclosure between 30-35 Hz.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=266-248
As I mentioned before, many of the newer style Sub amps have SS filter built into them. If you find one of those, won't need any F-Mods.
OK, I think we are at a point of picking some gear out, do some careful price comparisons and then begin the system install process when you get your gear. It seems to me, dual 12's will be plenty of bass. The amp... 500-600 Wrms will give you plenty of bass and not be overly taxing on your electricals too. (60A draw max is recommended)
Do you know the present current output on your stock ALT? Can call a good autoparts dealer, give them your make, model, year and engine size. They will tell you what ALT's are available for that vehicle. You can also have it checked out at places like Pep Boys, Auto Zone or a NAPA dealer.
===================================================
Sub Amp Choices:
1. JBL BP-600.1 (max 57A, typ ~50A)
2. Kicker KX-600 (max 60A, typ ~50A)
3. Alpine MRD-M501 (max 60A, typ ~50A)
4. Infinity Reference 610a (max 60A, typ ~50A)
Any of these amps will deliver adequate power to a pair of solid subs. Have to shop em hard to find the best prices though. A google search on each item will produce a list of sellers and prices from BizRate, Pricegrabber, Nextag or e-bay.
Example: Alpine MRD-M501
http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/product_info/overview/i
ndex__cat_id--11820000,prod_id--11453436.html
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?icatid=306&stk_code=alpmrdm501&svbname=293 $254.00
This amp has a SS filter too!
===================================================
Subs:
We seem to agree on Alpine SWR series subs. The best choice in this power range is the SWR-1221D.
Buy list:
http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/product_info/overview/
index__cat_id--11940000,prod_id--7226241.html (lowest price is $103.00/sub at Discount Jungle, a few bucks more at Etronics.)
Have a look at a few amp models and stick with the Apline subs noted. Lools like ~$460.00 for amp & subs +S/H. That leaves ~100.00 for wires and misc hardware. (in your $600.00 budget)
Anymore questions?
Swez
PS We'll get to the box issues next. Once you have signaled your sub choice. Can you make your own or must buy a premade one?
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