Well, this is kinda for swez since I posted to him about it in the beginning.
Those Audiobahn speakers I told you about, the as62q, I cannot use. I plugged them up in the truck and put the woofers where they would be in the doors so I could try out different tweeter locations. But I noticed a SERIOUS drop in midrange performance when they were turned facing each other. They sounded spectacular in the kickpanel locations facing upwards, but not at all good in the door locations.
I don't have time to build kickpanels, and didn't really want to go to a lot of trouble to do that anyway. Believe me, I considered it cause they sounded so good(soooo goood!!), but found that the parking brake pedal will hit the one on the driver's side when it's down all the way.
So I returned them. Then I tried some Pioneers from Wal-Mart, and had the same results as with Audiobahn. Not enough mids plus they didn't come anywhere near those Audiobahns in sound.
Also tried Kicker, Alpine, Infinity, and Polk. All sounded from good to awesome in the kicks, but performed very poorly in doors. I was beginning to think that my truck's acoustics were not right for door speakers. Only thing I was learning was to SAVE YOUR RECIEPT FOR THE RETURN AND KEEP THEM IN MINT SHAPE WHILE PLAYING WITH THEM.
Then I remembered that the reason I had not tried a Sony Xplod was that they had too much midrange in the store display. They were way too bright. So I tried a pair of them to see what would happen.
As soon as I turned them towards me in the truckin the kickpanels, too much midrange again, but turn them facing each other down low on the doors where they will be mounted, and the midrange tones right down, just like with all the rest, but since it had too much to start with, it was just perfect.
So, this may not be impressive to some people, me using Sony Xplod 6 1/2 3-ways from Wal-mart, but I'm happy. They are not those Audiobahns(which I would have loved to have kept) but this truck is not new or nice enough to consider relocating the parking brake lever to fit a pair of kicks in. Major mods are not in my budget anyway.
As an added bonus, since the inside of my truck is maroon and red, they match everything.
So I finally found a pair of 6.5's that will work for my truck.
Anybody considering Audiobahn speakers, and have the mount depth required, they are definitely worth it though. Some of the best I ever heard. Beat all the other brands I listed above, including the Sony I finally chose to go with.
Replies (7)
audeogod on 12/10/2004 10:08:20
This may sound longwinded, but I only posted this story so others could learn about what a difference a speaker location makes, and how different speakers may perform in the same space, how the acoustic interior of the car can affect it, and what they might do about it to get the sound they want.
Sorry so long in the telling of it.
swez on 12/11/2004 02:34:51
Very good info Duane. This is a great example of cancellation issues with door speakers.
I have noted the same problem in door mount installs. Have not gone to Kicks to date, but know they often are superior to door mounts, for this very reason. (cross firing drivers cancel each other out) Kicks are up firing and less cancellations are likely.
I wonder if you changed the polarity (wiring) on one side, if this would have a positive effect overall? I have not tried it to date, but recognize the potential benefits of doing so. (better full range performance)
Can you give this idea a try and let us know your findings?
Swez
audeogod on 12/15/2004 19:02:56
Yeah, I think I could try reversing polarity on one driver to see what it does. I already installed them in the doors, but all I need is a phillips screwdriver to pull one out.
Also, I wanted to tell everyone, on full sized Chevy/GMC trucks from 88-94(I think), you have about 2 1/2 inches mount depth including the plastic door panel without hitting the window in its rolled down position. I think any round speaker should fit, but not a 6x9. I believe that the cranking mechanism of the window will hit the basket unless it was a fairly shallow 6x9 or 5x7.
Some of these trucks come with a door pocket for papers and such but my truck did not have it. It may have to be removed to do an install like I did. I believe all of these trucks DO NOT have speakers here from the factory. They only have 4x6's in the dash, and up high in the rear panels behind the seat on each side.
There was a nice flat spot in the bottom front corner of the door for the speaker to fit. And again, I measured about 2 1/4 inches of clearance from the glass rolled down to the metal surface of the door with the panel removed. The panel adds another 1/4 inch or so, for 2 1/2 overall inches of depth.
As for running the wires, on each door there was a plastic cover over a predrilled hole about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. It was for models that would have power windows and other electric functions in the doors, but my truck did not have those so it was just covered up. I removed it and drilled a 3/8" hole and put in a rubber grommet for the wire.
Interestingly, the cab itself did not have a matching hole in the door jam for the other end of the wires to go up into the dash. I had to remove the plastic kick panel and drill through the metal from inside to outside to get a hole for the wire to go to the doors. THis is two layers of metal, but the wire only goes through one. The other hole was just to get through to where you need to drill the speaker wire hole. Then another rubber grommet for the wire to go through was put in. The hole you drill inside in the first layer of metal will be covered by the plastic kickpanel when it goes back in.
I ran the wire and tied a simple overhand knot(looks like a pretzel) on the inside of the door, and on the inside of the cab, to keep the wire from sliding back and forth, but leave enough slack to open the door without the wire sagging down.
My install came out great, and the speakers sound great to me. I got a almost factory installed look when I was finished. The only way you can tell it isn't is that the speakers look aftermarket and look new compared to an old truck interior.
swez on 12/15/2004 20:54:42
There is often a rubberized conduit beteen the door and jamb for electrical wires. This is where the wires for speakers, power mirror, power windows and door lock are fed into the door from inside the dash compartment.
What you did may work for a while. But if the hot speaker lead ever rubs enough to go bare and shorts to ground... poof goes your HU amplifier(s). Yes, there is some gap in the door/jamb fitting and sealing gaskets to keep out water. But that may not save you a big headache later.
Also, I was thinking about what other reasons would make your Sony speakers sound better than the others mentioned. I wonder if the speaker compliance is so high (large Vas value) on the Sony's, to make them sound better than some of the other you had metioned.
Some speakers work/sound much better in large free air install than others. Conversely, better quality speakers often sound much better and take more power when installed in sealed/ported emclosures. (like kicks)
Swez
audeogod on 12/17/2004 21:02:43
Well, I really wanted a rubber conduit boot to go between the door and the jamb. I considered taking one off of a junk truck or car, since mine didn't have one at all I could cut the holes to fit any that I found. But I didn't have the time to do everything I wanted to do. So the rubber grommet is what I chose to go with. I think it will last as long as I have the truck anyway. I don't honestly think it will last more than another 2-3 years. By then I will be ready for a newer one. The wire is slack enough to not rub back and forth yet tight enough to not hang down. I watched it as I moved the door back and forth and it didn't move any that I could see.
As for the speakers sounding better to me, I was thinking about that. The lack of mids was the biggest issue and the Sony Xplods provided more than any other did when turned sideways facing each other like they would be in the doors during my comparison tests.
I think it could be that the filter capacitor on the Sony's mids and tweets is about 5.1uF. All the others were in the + or - 3.4uF range but not even up to 4uF. I looked at that to see what it was when I had them all together. I guess you could tell from previous posts that I was buying several pairs of speakers at a time to compare them in my truck, then returning the ones I didn't like. Anyway, that capacitor value, as near as I can figure, lowers the crossover point for the mids on each coaxial speaker.
I calculated the crossover point using the formula Xc = 1 over 2piFC and transposed the Xc for the F so you get F = 1 over 2piXcC. I used a basic 4 ohm value for Xc, though I don't know what exactly it would be since I was only considering just a part of the total ohm load of the speaker(the tweeter and mid only, not the woofer)... but that let me see that the Sony's crossover point on the mids was considerably lower than all the others were. I was probably not accurate on the actual frequency, but I wasn't trying to hit it exactly. I just wanted to see how much different it was from the others.
The Xplod's came out to be about 7.8kHz hi pass, and the others were in the 11 - 12kHz range. THAT'S A LOT OF MIDS to my way of thinking.
So I have a 6 1/2 woofer with a full range of frequencies and then another little 1 5/8" mid as well, on each speaker.
The point is that I have more drivers producing the same frequencies than I would have with the other brands. I think that is why I heard less midrange loss on them than any other.
They are seriously lacking in bass though. Midbass performance increased quite a bit. But I have a resonating sound that is kind of annoying.
Playing with the Pioneer deck's EQ, I think I have isolated it to between 80-200 Hz range. I set the EQ to 80Hz on the bass and then lowered it and it helped some but I think my solution(Short of buying and actual slideband EQ) will be to add a sub for bass and let the amp and its bass boost help it, and then just kill the bass control on the stereo all together, or maybe some bass blockers on the 6 1/2's. Either way, with the bass at zero on the HU, the resonating sound seems to disappear, and of course all my bass too. I NEED A SUB!!
swez on 12/18/2004 10:52:02
Most tweets crossover between 2,000 - 5,000 Hz. The better the MB/MR driver is, the less frequency range it is asked to reproduce.
High quality Comps will do 60-20,000 Hz. The MB/MR driver will do well up to ~1.5 - 2.5 Khz and not much more. The Tweeter will take the rest. To see the frequency plots on where the MB/MR starts to loose SPL (F3 = -3dB down) is where most Comps make the cross point.
A tweeter that muct be crossed avove 5.0 Khz, is asking a lot of the MB driver, but a MR driver ca usually do this if well designed.
Swez
swez on 12/18/2004 10:53:00
Most tweets crossover between 2,000 - 5,000 Hz. The better the MB/MR driver is, the less frequency range it is asked to reproduce.
High quality Comps will do 60-20,000 Hz. The MB/MR driver will do well up to ~1.5 - 2.5 Khz and not much more. The Tweeter will take the rest. To see the frequency plots on where the MB/MR starts to loose SPL (F3 = -3dB down) is where most Comps make the cross point.
A tweeter that must be crossed well above 5.0 Khz, is asking a lot of the MB driver, but a MR driver can usually do this if well designed.
Swez
Those Audiobahn speakers I told you about, the as62q, I cannot use. I plugged them up in the truck and put the woofers where they would be in the doors so I could try out different tweeter locations. But I noticed a SERIOUS drop in midrange performance when they were turned facing each other. They sounded spectacular in the kickpanel locations facing upwards, but not at all good in the door locations.
I don't have time to build kickpanels, and didn't really want to go to a lot of trouble to do that anyway. Believe me, I considered it cause they sounded so good(soooo goood!!), but found that the parking brake pedal will hit the one on the driver's side when it's down all the way.
So I returned them. Then I tried some Pioneers from Wal-Mart, and had the same results as with Audiobahn. Not enough mids plus they didn't come anywhere near those Audiobahns in sound.
Also tried Kicker, Alpine, Infinity, and Polk. All sounded from good to awesome in the kicks, but performed very poorly in doors. I was beginning to think that my truck's acoustics were not right for door speakers. Only thing I was learning was to SAVE YOUR RECIEPT FOR THE RETURN AND KEEP THEM IN MINT SHAPE WHILE PLAYING WITH THEM.
Then I remembered that the reason I had not tried a Sony Xplod was that they had too much midrange in the store display. They were way too bright. So I tried a pair of them to see what would happen.
As soon as I turned them towards me in the truckin the kickpanels, too much midrange again, but turn them facing each other down low on the doors where they will be mounted, and the midrange tones right down, just like with all the rest, but since it had too much to start with, it was just perfect.
So, this may not be impressive to some people, me using Sony Xplod 6 1/2 3-ways from Wal-mart, but I'm happy. They are not those Audiobahns(which I would have loved to have kept) but this truck is not new or nice enough to consider relocating the parking brake lever to fit a pair of kicks in. Major mods are not in my budget anyway.
As an added bonus, since the inside of my truck is maroon and red, they match everything.
So I finally found a pair of 6.5's that will work for my truck.
Anybody considering Audiobahn speakers, and have the mount depth required, they are definitely worth it though. Some of the best I ever heard. Beat all the other brands I listed above, including the Sony I finally chose to go with.
Replies (7)
audeogod on 12/10/2004 10:08:20
This may sound longwinded, but I only posted this story so others could learn about what a difference a speaker location makes, and how different speakers may perform in the same space, how the acoustic interior of the car can affect it, and what they might do about it to get the sound they want.
Sorry so long in the telling of it.
swez on 12/11/2004 02:34:51
Very good info Duane. This is a great example of cancellation issues with door speakers.
I have noted the same problem in door mount installs. Have not gone to Kicks to date, but know they often are superior to door mounts, for this very reason. (cross firing drivers cancel each other out) Kicks are up firing and less cancellations are likely.
I wonder if you changed the polarity (wiring) on one side, if this would have a positive effect overall? I have not tried it to date, but recognize the potential benefits of doing so. (better full range performance)
Can you give this idea a try and let us know your findings?
Swez
audeogod on 12/15/2004 19:02:56
Yeah, I think I could try reversing polarity on one driver to see what it does. I already installed them in the doors, but all I need is a phillips screwdriver to pull one out.
Also, I wanted to tell everyone, on full sized Chevy/GMC trucks from 88-94(I think), you have about 2 1/2 inches mount depth including the plastic door panel without hitting the window in its rolled down position. I think any round speaker should fit, but not a 6x9. I believe that the cranking mechanism of the window will hit the basket unless it was a fairly shallow 6x9 or 5x7.
Some of these trucks come with a door pocket for papers and such but my truck did not have it. It may have to be removed to do an install like I did. I believe all of these trucks DO NOT have speakers here from the factory. They only have 4x6's in the dash, and up high in the rear panels behind the seat on each side.
There was a nice flat spot in the bottom front corner of the door for the speaker to fit. And again, I measured about 2 1/4 inches of clearance from the glass rolled down to the metal surface of the door with the panel removed. The panel adds another 1/4 inch or so, for 2 1/2 overall inches of depth.
As for running the wires, on each door there was a plastic cover over a predrilled hole about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. It was for models that would have power windows and other electric functions in the doors, but my truck did not have those so it was just covered up. I removed it and drilled a 3/8" hole and put in a rubber grommet for the wire.
Interestingly, the cab itself did not have a matching hole in the door jam for the other end of the wires to go up into the dash. I had to remove the plastic kick panel and drill through the metal from inside to outside to get a hole for the wire to go to the doors. THis is two layers of metal, but the wire only goes through one. The other hole was just to get through to where you need to drill the speaker wire hole. Then another rubber grommet for the wire to go through was put in. The hole you drill inside in the first layer of metal will be covered by the plastic kickpanel when it goes back in.
I ran the wire and tied a simple overhand knot(looks like a pretzel) on the inside of the door, and on the inside of the cab, to keep the wire from sliding back and forth, but leave enough slack to open the door without the wire sagging down.
My install came out great, and the speakers sound great to me. I got a almost factory installed look when I was finished. The only way you can tell it isn't is that the speakers look aftermarket and look new compared to an old truck interior.
swez on 12/15/2004 20:54:42
There is often a rubberized conduit beteen the door and jamb for electrical wires. This is where the wires for speakers, power mirror, power windows and door lock are fed into the door from inside the dash compartment.
What you did may work for a while. But if the hot speaker lead ever rubs enough to go bare and shorts to ground... poof goes your HU amplifier(s). Yes, there is some gap in the door/jamb fitting and sealing gaskets to keep out water. But that may not save you a big headache later.
Also, I was thinking about what other reasons would make your Sony speakers sound better than the others mentioned. I wonder if the speaker compliance is so high (large Vas value) on the Sony's, to make them sound better than some of the other you had metioned.
Some speakers work/sound much better in large free air install than others. Conversely, better quality speakers often sound much better and take more power when installed in sealed/ported emclosures. (like kicks)
Swez
audeogod on 12/17/2004 21:02:43
Well, I really wanted a rubber conduit boot to go between the door and the jamb. I considered taking one off of a junk truck or car, since mine didn't have one at all I could cut the holes to fit any that I found. But I didn't have the time to do everything I wanted to do. So the rubber grommet is what I chose to go with. I think it will last as long as I have the truck anyway. I don't honestly think it will last more than another 2-3 years. By then I will be ready for a newer one. The wire is slack enough to not rub back and forth yet tight enough to not hang down. I watched it as I moved the door back and forth and it didn't move any that I could see.
As for the speakers sounding better to me, I was thinking about that. The lack of mids was the biggest issue and the Sony Xplods provided more than any other did when turned sideways facing each other like they would be in the doors during my comparison tests.
I think it could be that the filter capacitor on the Sony's mids and tweets is about 5.1uF. All the others were in the + or - 3.4uF range but not even up to 4uF. I looked at that to see what it was when I had them all together. I guess you could tell from previous posts that I was buying several pairs of speakers at a time to compare them in my truck, then returning the ones I didn't like. Anyway, that capacitor value, as near as I can figure, lowers the crossover point for the mids on each coaxial speaker.
I calculated the crossover point using the formula Xc = 1 over 2piFC and transposed the Xc for the F so you get F = 1 over 2piXcC. I used a basic 4 ohm value for Xc, though I don't know what exactly it would be since I was only considering just a part of the total ohm load of the speaker(the tweeter and mid only, not the woofer)... but that let me see that the Sony's crossover point on the mids was considerably lower than all the others were. I was probably not accurate on the actual frequency, but I wasn't trying to hit it exactly. I just wanted to see how much different it was from the others.
The Xplod's came out to be about 7.8kHz hi pass, and the others were in the 11 - 12kHz range. THAT'S A LOT OF MIDS to my way of thinking.
So I have a 6 1/2 woofer with a full range of frequencies and then another little 1 5/8" mid as well, on each speaker.
The point is that I have more drivers producing the same frequencies than I would have with the other brands. I think that is why I heard less midrange loss on them than any other.
They are seriously lacking in bass though. Midbass performance increased quite a bit. But I have a resonating sound that is kind of annoying.
Playing with the Pioneer deck's EQ, I think I have isolated it to between 80-200 Hz range. I set the EQ to 80Hz on the bass and then lowered it and it helped some but I think my solution(Short of buying and actual slideband EQ) will be to add a sub for bass and let the amp and its bass boost help it, and then just kill the bass control on the stereo all together, or maybe some bass blockers on the 6 1/2's. Either way, with the bass at zero on the HU, the resonating sound seems to disappear, and of course all my bass too. I NEED A SUB!!
swez on 12/18/2004 10:52:02
Most tweets crossover between 2,000 - 5,000 Hz. The better the MB/MR driver is, the less frequency range it is asked to reproduce.
High quality Comps will do 60-20,000 Hz. The MB/MR driver will do well up to ~1.5 - 2.5 Khz and not much more. The Tweeter will take the rest. To see the frequency plots on where the MB/MR starts to loose SPL (F3 = -3dB down) is where most Comps make the cross point.
A tweeter that muct be crossed avove 5.0 Khz, is asking a lot of the MB driver, but a MR driver ca usually do this if well designed.
Swez
swez on 12/18/2004 10:53:00
Most tweets crossover between 2,000 - 5,000 Hz. The better the MB/MR driver is, the less frequency range it is asked to reproduce.
High quality Comps will do 60-20,000 Hz. The MB/MR driver will do well up to ~1.5 - 2.5 Khz and not much more. The Tweeter will take the rest. To see the frequency plots on where the MB/MR starts to loose SPL (F3 = -3dB down) is where most Comps make the cross point.
A tweeter that must be crossed well above 5.0 Khz, is asking a lot of the MB driver, but a MR driver can usually do this if well designed.
Swez
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