Hello, I currently am running a pair of pioneer 3 ways in my front doors, (90 sentra 2 door), and have a kicker fullrange box running as a sub with 2 12's in the trunk. I'm using a kicker KX-3 crossover. System sounds ok but since I have the front speakers crossed over so they don't get much bass and being the subs are 12's and I have them crossed over around 50 I'm missing some frequencys between the 2 sets of speakers. I was thinking of adding 2- 8" woofers in the rear side panels as mid bass. Do you think this is a good idea? I currently have 2 amps 200x2 (PPI) to the sub and a cheap crunch amp 100 x2 for the front. I also have a alpine 4 ch that I may use if I decide to install the midbass speakers. Would 8" subs be too much as midbass speakers? I see some people using 5 1/4" components for their front and 6 1/2" as mid bass, I need some Ideas on this thanks,
Replies (42)
uochronos on 11/23/2004 01:55:01
a good set of 6.5 inch components in the front doros with a tweeter can go down to 50hz... also you could let those subs play all the way up to 80hz or so... the optioon you mentio using 8" speaker for mid bass say 50-150hz would work very well. many options hear to close that gap of missing sound.
Chronos
swez on 11/23/2004 09:33:11
Agree w/ Chronos... What size speakers are in the front doors of your car now? (make & model # would help)
Depending on the overall frequency response the fronts are capable of, you may be able to cross them over between 80 - 120 Hz., off the HPF on your amp.
As for the subs, 50 Hz is a bit low for car subs. The LPF can be adjusted to bridge tha gap between front & subs. Most guys cross the subs between 80-100 Hz. Once we get above 120 Hz on subs, they can become boomy and not sound right.
As for adding 8" MB drivers, that's possible too. The trick is to blend them with your present system and many use a bandpass (notch) filter network to limit frequency range they play at.
Say more about your present system and what you are trying to achieve here. Then, we can give you some specific details on how to improve the overall sound of your system.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/23/2004 17:52:09
front speakers are pioneer TS-A1680R's 4 ways, front crossover is currently set at about 100htz, rear is set at 50 htz. I don't cross the fronts over lower because they start to sound like crap and I don't think they can handle it. I'm not trying to build a competition system, it's just for listening to music, I also have a Alpine 3342 EQ installed that I just added recently. As for the subs when I cross them over higher than 50- 70 they start to sound to boomy and I can't stand that. I'm sure it would sound better if I had an actual sub instead of the fullrange box that I'm currently using, Thanks for your replies
swez on 11/23/2004 19:54:47
I think you may be right. A full range box may be holding you back here. Is there a way to disable all non-sub components in your full range enclosure so that only bass is played through them?
If yes, try adjusting the LPF on the subs for 100 Hz. That is still a good number for sub applications and there would be no gaps between F&R stages.
That KX-3 is a nice crossover unit. Many good features here. Definitely a device to build a solid 3-4 way system if you so choose. I like the 3 channel in/out approach used and each channel can be broken down to specific frequency bands. If you did add MB drivers in the rear side panels, this crossover gives very good control and can fill in the gaps you have now.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/23/2004 20:15:13
I believe the tweeters are disconnected allready, I used it as a sub because ,being it's in the trunk you couldn't hear the highs anyway. Would the side panels behind the front doors be a good location for a midbass speaker? Can I use a regular 8" sub as a midbass? I was thinking about the Kicker Comp 03C84 since the subs are kickers, the 8" kicker has a freq response of 30 - 0.5k Hz and can handle 100 watts. kicker also makes the SSMB8 which they call a mid bass but I'm not looking to spend $250 for a pair of 8's, thanks
swez on 11/23/2004 20:30:53
You'd have to remove the panel and check depth and the best location to mount MB drivers. But, yes... a pair of 8" MB drivers are basically subs with a little extended range. (50 - 150 Hz) would be plenty good.
Also, you may have to use some kind of acoustical dampening materials to prevent rattles and such on the panels. The more rigid you can make the install site, the better.
Finally, once you get the panel off and inspect the airspace available, consider using some kind of enclosure if possible. Most 8's will do well in a 0.1-0.3 cf airspace. The more airtight it is, the better your MB performance will be.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/25/2004 10:26:03
New question, would running one DVC 8" sub as the mid bass speaker have any adverse effects compared to running 2 SVC 8" subs??
compvr15s on 11/25/2004 14:27:15
no, the daul voice coil setup is just handy for more wiring options. with the two 8s you can expect a few more dbs. but say you have 2 svc subs at 4ohms and a mono channel amp, you either wire them in parrelell at 2 ohms or series at 8ohms, well at 8 omhs you subs wont be gettin much power. but if you have 2 daul 4ohm vc subs, you can wire each sub at either 2 ohms or 8omhs, then can wire them together at the amp for a 1omh load for a 4ohm load, its makes things alot easier in my opionion, i dont know the actaull reason why dual voice coils were created, usually not a difference in power handling. here is a site on parallel vs series wiring, gets into detail well.
swez on 11/25/2004 14:36:27
Nope, can even use as MONO channel as frequencies in this range are still omnidirectional. Once we get above ~300 Hz, stereo imaging is important and 2 channels are needed.
The trick here, is placement of the single MB driver. A small enclosure would sure be a good idea here. Mounting it in the rear passenger floor (center) and firing upward will work. As for amping this MB driver, won't need much power, depending on the efficiency of the driver used. If you used a 4+4 DVC 8", can use the HU amps to power them. If you amp them with another amp you have on hand, get a 2+2 DVC and use your Crunch amp in MONO to power it.
That Alpine 4 channel amp you have now... what model and power is it?
Swez
compvr15s on 11/25/2004 14:47:39
my bad i didnt even read the whole thread, i was just using a mono amp as example for the diference between single and dual vc subs. i guess i should have read the whole post, but did not mean to miss lead anybody, HAPPY
swez on 11/25/2004 15:04:57
You a funny guy CompVR... right idea, just not on the same page (lol) yet.... flip back a few posts to get a full picture of this application. Things will make more sense then.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/25/2004 15:48:15
I was just thinking if I used a single DVC 8" sub I could just mount one, I figured the bass would be unidirectional (?) so having one wouldn't matter and being a DVC I would run both L & R to it. THe Alpine is an older 3554 4 ch, (55 x4 or 150 x2). I set my crossover to the freq. you suggested in a previous post, but the front speakers sounded like they were going to blow up so I set the crossover point back to where I had it. Thanks Happy Thanksgiving to all.
swez on 11/25/2004 21:09:01
That's either clipping from the HU, amp or the door speakers are not well dampened to handle low in the doors. They just flop wildly with too much bass.
There may be a few tricks to get around that. Mostly turning down HU bass control to "flat" (No boost, no cut) and no bass boost on amp either.
Subs and MB are considered omni (all) directional. Uni (one) direction is how the cone moves, but low frequencies spread out rapidly through the whole cabin. Midrange and tweeters tend to have a focal beaming affect. The higher the frequency thy play, the tighter the beam will become. (unless we use reflection or diffusers to spread out the beam.
Are you willing to invest a bit more time and $$ in better front stage speakers? If yes, that older 4 channel Alpine may be a very good amp for your front stage speakers.
The PPI is an excellent amp with the right sub setup. No need to change that at all.
As for the MB driver, that Crunch amp may do the job well enough. What model is that one? Got a link?
As for the MB driver to use, depends on how you plan to wire it to a given amp. If you used a 2+2 DVC (Kicker CVR8) that will handle 200 RMS alone in a 0.4 cf sealed box. You can wire each coil to 1 channel or bridge the amp MONO and run the DVC @ 4 ohms MONO. Same power either way.
What say you?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/25/2004 22:17:54
head unit is a pre-amp only deck ( sony xru770), bass and treble have been set to flat since I added the 3342 EQ, one of the front speakers was just removed ( for window related repairs), while I had it out I installed a dynamat extreme speaker kit that I had bought a few months ago, have to do the other door speaker maybe tomorrow. I think the crunch amp is a crunch 100 model, not 100% sure it was given to me when I was having problems with the alpine amp, for some reason the alpine amp kept shutting off for like 3 seconds every once in a while, not heat related, I've since hooked it up to my power supply with a extra HU I have and it was fine. Seems like all my equipment is about 10 years old with the exception of the speakers, crossover and CD changer LOL. I was just thinking of maybe just using 1 8" sub because I figured the bass would be omni directional and it would be easier to mount one, If the 8" sub has to be in an enclosure and if space permits in the side panel I would probably have to make a mold somehow of the space behind the panel to house the sub, not sure how to do that. The pioneers are rated 2-50 watts with a 220 watt peak and I am allready running about 100 watts into them, used to have 150 running them thru the alpine bridged, I know it's most often the distortion from an amp clipping that kills a speaker but I don't have the amp's gain up that much. Recently I turned the gain down because when the volume on the sony HU was low I was getting noise caused by the alpine EQ, turning the gain on the crunch amp down eliminated the noise, Would any 8" sub be ok or should I be looking for one advertised as being for mid-bass? Any recommendations on a 8" sub? I don't want to spend a fortune as I said earlier this is not a comp. system I just want it to sound decent. Thanks
swez on 11/26/2004 10:52:01
Most 8" woofers will function in the 40-500Hz range. Since you already have woofers to give you the deep lows and mid/highs to handle everything else above 100 Hz, the logical range of a MB driver would be ~50-150 Hz.
That means a LPF and perhaps an inline SS filter (50 Hz) to the amp that drives the MB speaker. That gives a true bandpass or notch filter to that specific driver.
As I read deeper into your posts, it seem like the weakest link in this system is the Pioneer front speakers. They are low power handling and have very poor low frequency characteristics as well. (they get sloppy) An option to upgrade these to a better Comp set seems like a good choice. Just a suggestion... but you can do the 8" MB driver if you wish.
The key to above average MB performance is the use of a sealed enclosure. This will help control cone travel and improve lower MB performance as well. However, the size of the enclosure may pose a space problem for you. This is a major thing to consider. "How much work will this be, to get it right"?
If you don't wish to buy an expensive MB driver to experiment with, can hop over to Partsexpress and have a look at 4 ohm woofer/MB drivers. Some are very inexpensive, but can handle power well. Others are pretty exotic and very expensive.
1. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-312
2. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-357 (8+8 DVC)
3. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-545
The key here, look for low Vas numbers. The lower the number, the less box space is needed to get good low end bass response. Vas is a spec that tells where the compliance of the speaker is equal to a free air design. Any air volume space greater than the Vas spec, says the sub is now operating like a free air (infinite baffle) speaker enclosure. The woofer I have shown you all have low Vas specs. In this application, that will matter. You don't have room for a 1.5 cf enclosure in a side panel, but you can probably get pretty close to 0.5 - 0.8 without a big ordeal.
Swez
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/26/2004 11:03:25
so a free air speaker would be ok to use? I would just have to dynamat ( or similiar) the inside of the body panel to reduce vibrations. I'll check out parts express I get their catalogs. I was thinking the same thing as far as the notch filter, I would set the crossover point at one freq, and than I was wondering about the other end and the thought had come to me about using like a F-Mod plug in x-over. As for the front speakers I had MB quart seperates years ago but they are long gone and it seems the new models went way up in price, I saw that crutchfield recently picked up the MB Quarts, what I originally was looking for was a 6 1/2" coaxial that could handle a decent amount of power but it seems that most of them don't. As for x-over setup I can set the rear freq at say 150htz and than use like an f-mod at 50 htz, this would limit the midbass to 50-150htz correct? So the way everything is now I would have the pioneers x-over at around 100-150, midbass at 150-50, and the subs at 50 and below. Maybe I'll start looking around at my options for new front components,
swez on 11/26/2004 11:22:10
Yes, you may use Free Air MB design if you wish. Just remember that in FA applications, power handling at low frequencies are about 50% of rated power when enclosed.
The crossover you mentioned for the MB is what I also had in mind. That combo is a very good option. F-Mod 50 Hz HP and set your amp HPF to ~150 Hz. A solid 12dB notch filter!
Have you heard anything about CDT? The Cl-61a is a great Comp set for $150.00 @ Zeb audio. Several guys have them now and love em. Much cheaper than MBQ's and high power handling too.
http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-CL-61A-6-1-2-inch-Component-System-101083.htm
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/26/2004 19:29:10
Never heard of CDT audio before, I pulled the side panel off today not sure if I could install a speaker there, depth is not a problem but it would involve a lot of metal cutting and the metal isn't flat at all, I was thinking maybe I could build the panel out, that way the hole I would need to cut would be smaller plus if I made a new panel out of wood it would be stiffer.
swez on 11/26/2004 20:20:58
Where have you been... under a rock all this time? lol We have been raving about CDT Classics ever since the price dropped to half what they normally sell at. (Spring 2004?)
I would suggest avoiding any panel cutting or metal work if at all possible. Is there some sort of console between the front seats that a small driver can be installed into? Or, small enclosure (0.3-0.5 cf) and install behind the front seats? The other option is to consider what's in the parcel shelf at the rear window. If you have speaker holes there, we might be able to work from that. I'd hate to see you carve up interior panels and still not get the results you desire.
Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/27/2004 13:29:26
I've been away from car audio for a while, I used to receive car audio and car stereo review mags every month, was a subscriber from their start. But drifted towards other things. Anyway, I don't really want to cut any panels or metal if necessary, no center console, no room to make one only about 5-6" between the 2 seats. No room behind seats, parcel shelf is narrow and not much room under it as the sub box and amps are there. Only place I can think of is under the drivers seat ( pass seat has CD changer under it), will have to measure space under seat to get exact size but there is more room than normally found under a seat. Possibly a "L" shaped box that slides under the dr. seat and also behind it, the box being taller behind the seat and lower under the seat to increase the size of the enclosure?? And use only one speaker.
swez on 11/27/2004 14:13:39
That "L" shaped enclosure sounds like a winner. Depending on the MB driver used, the actual box can be very minimal in overall dimensions. Say 0.3-0.5 ft^3 in all. That driver will need to be mounted on ~10"x10" baffle panel and deep enough to clear the overall depth of the woofer when mounted. Say 4-6" of depth, depending on the diver you choose.
A box of 6" H, 10" W and 10" L will net about 0.28 ft^3. The rest of the internal cf airspace needed will be made up in the part that slides under the seat. Get out your tape measure, (YOYO) and see what space is actually there.
The question is all about fabrication and space restrictions. Also, do not attemp to mount this MR driver directly under the seat. You will defeat the upper range of the speaker by firing it into a padded seat.
Are these bucket seats or bench style in this vehicle? Am wondering if you don't have much room behind the driver's seat, but have bucket seats.... moving the CD changer under the driver's seat and pulling up the passenger seat to make some room for this enclosure, may be a viable option.
The only other option I can think of, is to take a close look at the parcel shelf. Can a surface mounted enclosure be used on top the parcel shelf? Again, we are looking at a max dimension of ~10" D, 4-6" H and L is negotiable based on needs of the MR driver.
Hummmm, dumb question here... does this car have fold down rear seats in the back for access to the trunk?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/27/2004 17:51:56
No time to measure yet will do that tomorrow, seats are buckets, was thinking to gain slightly more clearance could always space the seat brackets up alittle. Parcel shelf is out no room on top, rear seats do not fold. What would minimum clearance between magnet assembly and bottom of enclosure be ? Using one speaker would I still want to use a DVC sub to run L & R channels to each voice coil? Thanks for the help
swez on 11/27/2004 20:25:06
This one ain't gonna go down easy huh? Well, we'll continue the saga some more. LOL
That DVC driver: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-357%20 This is the 8+8 DVC model discussed.
The OD of the sub is: 8.0"
The cutout dia is: 7-1/4"
The Depth is: 3-5/8"
So, we still need external dimensions mins of 10.5" x 10.5" face panel to mount it properly. Minimum "H" of the mount will be 5.5". Can use 1/2" - 5/8" MDF for the enclosure as this is a small driver and will not be used below 50 Hz. An enclosure of this basic dimension is 0.212 cf. The speaker displacement for a typical 8" driver is 0.03 cf. That puts net internal volume at 0.209 cf. A little on the small side as I am hoping for 0.3 - 0.4 cf internal air space. (0.35 cf would be very good if it will fit)
That overall dimension would need to be:
10.5" Width
16.5" Length
5.5" Height
===================================================
If we looked at a round tube enclosure, that size would be 10.0" dia., 9.0" long and 1/4" thick = 0.349 cf. Would that work better in your vehicle?
===================================================
Note: All parameters are with voice coils connected in parallel.
Specifications: *Power handling: 100 watts RMS/220 watts max
*Voice coil diameter: 1-1/2"
*Le: .5 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms per coil *Re: 3.7 ohms
*Frequency range: 44-3,000 Hz
*Fs: 51 Hz
*SPL: 90.8 dB 2.83V/1m
*Vas: .73 cu. ft.
*Qms: 4.46
*Qes: .75
*Qts: .64
*Xmax: 3.5 mm
*Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 8", Cutout Diameter: 7-1/8", Mounting Depth: 3-5/8".
Man, this is getting complicated huh? Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/27/2004 21:17:44
Yes, all those numbers are greek to me, LOL, tube as in say a bazooka tube? I had thought about using one or two of them and just laying them on the floor behind the seats, I'll take all the measurements tomorrow and get backto you
swez on 11/28/2004 09:51:32
Alreighty than... get out your best tape measure!
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/28/2004 21:19:50
ok, here's what I came up with, this may be hard to follow, from the floor to the bottom of the seat is about 4 1/2" - 5" could probably do 5" with a small spacer under seat brackets. The width from the center hump to the inside of the inner panel of the side of the car is 21 1/2" ( but this is narrows once you get to the rear of the seat brackets), from the base of the rear seat forward I got 24" but with the seat slid all the way back ( normal driving position) I got about 14". distance between the seat brackets is 14 1/2" ---- so to make it square I could probably do a 14" x 14" x 5" box, could go longer up under the seat . What do you do tho figure cu' ? is it L x W x H, divided by 12??
ahardb0dy on 11/28/2004 21:40:36
also, I have a yamaha amp 50 x4 or 120 x 2. it's an older amp the same guy that gave me the crunch gave me this one tto, it's a YPA-1000 I found a calculator for cu' and did some calculations, figuring for the thickness of the enclosure being either 3/4" or 1/2", The kicker sub mentioned earlier you said it should have a 0.4cu' box, I figured with a 1/2" thich box of 17 x 13 x 4 = ,51 cu' does that sound right? how would that be? Open to your suggestions.
cplkittle on 11/28/2004 21:49:01
just skimmed through the post, so maybe I missed something.. but for what it is worth, from my point of view...
for the same price of an 8" sub, an upgrade could be made on the middrivers up front, and replace alot of headache.
Take a look at these components.. This is a new brand on the market, we carry them at the store I work at. I have been VERY impressed by these speakers.
http://stores.ebay.com/Audio-Allies_Car-Speakers-Subs_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQsclZallQQsotimedisplayZ2QQtZkm
I would put these above JBL, Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, and Alpine's Type S series. That is if you decide against the CDTs.
swez on 11/29/2004 12:18:27
Good reference input there Kit... however, this gent is looking at a midbass driver he can load behind the seats. He has subs and decent F&R speakers already. The front speakers are the weakest link in the game so far.
That box dimension of 17x13x4 = 884 in^3/1728 = 0.51 cf. (external) Your net internal will be close to 0.333 cf minus sub displacement. The Kicker CompVR 8" has a mounting depth of 3-15/16". Too deep for this box, if the box is only 4" deep. (external)
Am beginning to wonder if we a just peeing into a stiff wind on this MB option. Just not enough room behind the seats to do the job at a price that makes sense.
Would you consider investing in some quality Component speakers in the front doors to get your MB/highs from there? The 6.5" Comps mentioned by Kittle make sense. The low price is definitely a plus and if he said they sound good, I'll take his word on that.
Since you have already had the doors off, it's just a matter of fitting the new Comps, adding sound deadener to the panels and button up and go. That option is looking more practical as we have been beating this old horse for sometime and no results to speak of.
What say you?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/29/2004 19:16:28
The measurements I listed were internal , so the .51 is the internal cu', I don't know about doing better components, I can't believe a 6 1/2" speaker will be able to handle the bass with out sounding like crap, maybe it's time to go audition some in person. For now I'm going to throw together a test box to see what will actually fit under/behind the seat, previously you mentioned tubes, were you referring to a bazooka tube or something else? Thanks
swez on 11/29/2004 20:28:13
OK, we can take this path a bit longer if you wish. Bazooka is one option. They are compact, easy to find and with some good shopping, you can get one for a reasonable price. The question is, will it fit?
This one seems to fit your general criteria in performance, but it is a DVC that is wired internally. I do not know if you can wire each coil independently with out some modifications. The length may also be an issue for your application. Here are the general specs and dimensions:
Key Features:
8" dual 4-ohm voice coil woofer
mounting straps and hardware included
gold-plated 5-way binding posts
frequency response 39-1,500 Hz
handles 200 watts RMS (100 watts per coil)
sensitivity 102 dB
8-9/16"W x 18-5/8"L x 10-1/16"H
warranty: 1 year
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rC5LtaWKNXD/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=510&id=essential_info&i=204BT8DVC
The other Bazooka tube that can be used is a SVC, 4 ohm, 8" sub kit. It has the same physical dimensions, a little less power handling and can be very useful off a 2 channel amp when bridged to MONO.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rC5LtaWKNXD/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=510&I=204BT8014&search=bazooka&wmsf=1
FYI: Since this is a MB driver which will only be passing 50-150 Hz audio, it will be fine to run in MONO of an amp. You'll get channels A&B from the HU to amp, but A&B signals will be summed to a single MONO output. At these frequencies, directionality is a minor issue as these frequencies are pretty much omni-directional in nature. Once we get above ~300 Hz., (midrange) then directionality is important for true stereo imaging.
Finally, I think it good to demo a few 6.5" Coaxials and Component speakers. There is good MB to be had from 6.5" drivers, when they are installed in a reasonably air leak free panel. That's where the sound deadening makes a notable difference.
NOTE: I have a pair of 5.25" MB drivers in my doors now. If I had more amp power (HU amping only) these sound very good already. Good low end MB and midrange and a stock tweeter are in the front doors now. If I was going to keep this car, I would install sound dampening material over the door panels and add a decent amp.
I had to replace one stock speaker as it was shot, so I bought a pair of real cheap Goldwood speakers from PE. The difference in MB/MR response was dramatic. That's with a 4 x 15 WRms stock HU amp. If I took them up to 50+ WRms with an outboard amp, I know they would sound very good.
Keep that in mind as you shop and listen,
Swez
PS In tube speaker designs, you can make your own from a Sono Tube. These come in various diameters, but work on the same principle as Bazooka. A 10" diameter (heavy cardboard) tube is needed to mate properly with an 8" sub. Home centers like Home Depot carry them and they are cheap. Just have to fabricate sub mounting rings and a bottom plate for termination. Round tube are very popular as sub columes for HT applications. No standing wave problems and since it is a perfect cylinder, very good enclosure design for bass and MB applications.
A cylinder of 10" OD, 1/4" wall thickness and 11" long will net an internal CF of 0.431 cf. You can paint it, carpet it or do what ever finish you wish. Being a cylinder, it is naturally a stong enclosure and well not flex as the air pressure inside the tube is equal at all points along the tube. Think about that one a bit.
ahardb0dy on 12/4/2004 20:12:47
Ok, mid bass speakers are now out of the picture, stopped at a local car audio store the other day, the smallest box for an 8" sub wouldn't fit under the seat so I've decided to upgrade my front speakers. Sorry for all your suggestions going to waste. The shop recommended the kicker 6 1/2" componnets not sure which model they were, I'll check out the CDT components again that you mentioned earlier. some one I know recommended a set of Koda 6.1MkII by Adire Audio they run $349 shipped, ever hear of them? In this price range what would you recommend? Also My sub box is a kicker fullrange box running as a sub, with the stock kicker ( cheap probably) 12" speakers that came with it, could I remove the tweeters and seal their holes and install normal subs in it? or should I just look for a whole new sub box? Are any of the premade sub boxes any good (mtx, rockford, etc) ? I sat in one of the installers cars at the store and the bass he had was crazy, I don't think you could listen to it the way he had it turned up but when the first bass note hit my whole body shook! He was running one jl audio 3 series 15" in a very large box ported powered by a jl audio 500/1 amp, in a 4 door honda. I'm not interested in my system being the boomiest just want to be able to turn it up and not have the subs sound like they're cracked. Thanks
swez on 12/4/2004 20:37:44
Not a bad plan... we had discussed this option before and it has merit.
Yes, Adire Koda's are a premium set of Comps. Are they really much better than CDT Classics at $150.00 a set? Not for the average listener. Yes, Adire makes some great speakers... but this may not be the best way to spend all your hard earned money.
That sub enclosure you have now, may indeed be a weakness. Yes, you can remove the tweeters and plug the holes, but what are the overall dimensions of this box? If we have cheap subs and a marginal sub enclosure ( I think your situaltion may be the case from what was said already) the effort is futile.
Can you get the exterior dimensions of this full range box? Need external "H", "W" and "D" here. With that, can give you some thoughts as to what to do next in the bass engine of your system.
Finally, the CDT's we talked about (CL-61a) is a very good option for the front stage. The rear stage can be stock speakers for MB (6x9's)
and a good set of subs. To get the best from a door mounted set of Comps, may need to use sound dampening here. If we know the box you have and the subs used, it would help a lot.
Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 12/4/2004 21:00:27
Thanks, I was going to ask about the dimensions of the box but figured I'd get them first. I have to dig around, a while back I wrote them all down I'll get back to you in a few minutes. Are rear speakers ( rear stage) absolutely necessary?
ahardb0dy on 12/4/2004 21:38:23
I had the measurements and had a guy at work who is very good with math figure out the volume but I can't find the paper, anyway here are the measurements from kickers manual, front height 13", rear height 10", width 36", depth 20"
swez on 12/5/2004 10:35:51
Looks like a pretty large box here... almost 5 cf external and roughly 1.5 cf per sub internally. Generally, Kicker subs like large enclosures.
Tried to access Kicker website for any details on the full range box you might have there. The site seems to be down for the moment. My best guess, you may have a bad crossover in that box or subs don't work properly in this size enclosure. However, the box seems about right for a pair of typical Kicker 12's.
The boomy sound you get from these subs at 80-100 Hz., seems to indicates these subs have low SPL efficiency at low sub frequencies and are more efficient as the frequency rises above ~60 Hz. Hard to say what you have entirely here as I have not heard your setup. Have you opened the box to see if it has any acoustical dampening materials like fiberglass insulation or polyfil?
If not, consider doing so and add about 1.5 - 3" of damping material on back, sides top & bottom panels, inside the box. This will help blank out cabinate resonances that often lead to boominess. A little EQ boost at 50-60 Hz will help and some cut at 80-100 Hz., can smooth out the boominess.
After that has been remedied, you may find you can increase the crossover frequency from your X3 crossover to 80 Hz., for smoother bass response.
Your other question about rear speakers being necessary... some guys use only quality front Comps and subs for the rear channel. Rear channel speakers can be a good source of MB, if full range speakers are not used or, the rear speakers have adequate LP filters to block highs. Really depends on the size, quality and power handling of the rear speakers. It's really more a preference... not a hard rule that we use rear deck speakers. (MB or full range Coaxials) Personally, I prefer rear fill. But some simplify the system to suit their tastes.
Comments,
Swez
PS What is the model number of that Kicker full range box? I'd like to review it's design and internal components before we make any drastic changes. (like replacing the box or subs)
ahardb0dy on 12/6/2004 16:54:32
kicker is a ss-120, they don't make them anymore and I didn't see any info on their web site, I e-mailed kicker a few days ago and as usual haven't heard anything from them yet. No poly fill or dampening in the box, only crossover I see in the box is for the tweeters ( looks like a small cap or something),
swez on 12/6/2004 22:33:45
Hummm, cannot find much on that full range combo... but I did find out what your car looks like, how old you are (39... happy birthday) and you live in Florida and work for Orange Co. How's that for an old snoop dawg?
Funny what info may turn up when you least expect it huh? Let's see what Kicker has to say?
Swez
PS A lucky day... I did find some info on SS-1200 series. Is this it?
http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/SSMan.pdf
ahardb0dy on 12/7/2004 19:56:47
Thank you, that box is similiar to mine, it may have been the model that came out after mine. So you saw my $580 POS car, LOL, just think both my PPI amp, and sony headunit cost more than the car did!! Still no response from kicker,
swez on 12/8/2004 10:17:47
Not surprising... large companies can have very slow response times to questions like this. Older products are often archived and it take a while (and a good searcher) to find the details and get back to you.
I found some info on you at a Nissan website you frequent. It came up when I did a google search on that box number you gave earlier.
Now, this box may still be useful. The overall dimensions are favorable to many subs in a 12" format. It is most suitable to subs that offer a larger Vas spec. (equivilent air space in a free air test) Kicker subs, are a good example of subs that like larger boxes. However, larger boxes can produce boominess too. (especially without acoustical sound dampening materials in them)
One thing you can try that is cheap and easy to do, is add sound dampening materials to the box. I mentioned that in an earlier post. Can use fiberglass house insulation, polyfil, medium pile carpet or even carpet padding materials will help absorb some of the rear cone reflections inside the box. This will usually knock down boominess in a large enclosure and absorb more of the upper bass energy that leads to boominess.
On one of my last experiments, I used 1" foam carpet padding. It seems to work just fine. I got if for free from a neighbor that was getting new carpet installed. The box was a sealed design (1.33 cf) per each sub. The subs were older 12" MTX Blue Thunders. They had a sealed spec of 1.50 cf/sub. (similar to your Kickers) I was very pleased with the deep lows and good frequency balance up to 100 Hz. These subs are rated at 200 Wrms, and I could push them to 400 Wrms w/o any undue distortion, as long as the amp was not clipping. The only thing that was not so hot, was the SPL levels I got from these subs. They are low efficiency (~86-87 dB/1w/1m) subs. I get much more bass output from a pair of dual 10's in a sealed box (~3.0 cf net) as these are higher efficiency subs. (90 dB SPL @ 1w/1m) Same input power too... 400 Wrms.
In short, try adding some fill material to each sub chamber and test them again at 50 Hz (LPF) and 80-100 Hz. (LPF) settings. I believe you will have a noticable difference in performance, (less boominess) in the upper bass ranges.
Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 12/8/2004 18:07:10
I'll have to try that, so either one of the kicker subs would most likely work in my box? I know from a previous request that even the kicker comp's are supposed to be way better than what I have in the box now. quick ?, why does my box sound fine running fullrange, but crossed over as a sub it doesn't?
swez on 12/8/2004 20:47:00
Probably the horns are masking the short falls of a woofer, asked to extend, well beyond the range mos true subs work off.
It is most likely, that the horns do a good job above 3,000 Hz. But a true sub, is more like 25-250 Hz. (maybe even more narrow BW)
If these subs have a wider freq response needed, they may need some EQ or filtering to make them work most efficiently as low range subs.
Finally, the internal sound dampening material will help a good deal. But we may have to make some electronic adjustments to compensate for these woofers.
Swez
Replies (42)
uochronos on 11/23/2004 01:55:01
a good set of 6.5 inch components in the front doros with a tweeter can go down to 50hz... also you could let those subs play all the way up to 80hz or so... the optioon you mentio using 8" speaker for mid bass say 50-150hz would work very well. many options hear to close that gap of missing sound.
Chronos
swez on 11/23/2004 09:33:11
Agree w/ Chronos... What size speakers are in the front doors of your car now? (make & model # would help)
Depending on the overall frequency response the fronts are capable of, you may be able to cross them over between 80 - 120 Hz., off the HPF on your amp.
As for the subs, 50 Hz is a bit low for car subs. The LPF can be adjusted to bridge tha gap between front & subs. Most guys cross the subs between 80-100 Hz. Once we get above 120 Hz on subs, they can become boomy and not sound right.
As for adding 8" MB drivers, that's possible too. The trick is to blend them with your present system and many use a bandpass (notch) filter network to limit frequency range they play at.
Say more about your present system and what you are trying to achieve here. Then, we can give you some specific details on how to improve the overall sound of your system.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/23/2004 17:52:09
front speakers are pioneer TS-A1680R's 4 ways, front crossover is currently set at about 100htz, rear is set at 50 htz. I don't cross the fronts over lower because they start to sound like crap and I don't think they can handle it. I'm not trying to build a competition system, it's just for listening to music, I also have a Alpine 3342 EQ installed that I just added recently. As for the subs when I cross them over higher than 50- 70 they start to sound to boomy and I can't stand that. I'm sure it would sound better if I had an actual sub instead of the fullrange box that I'm currently using, Thanks for your replies
swez on 11/23/2004 19:54:47
I think you may be right. A full range box may be holding you back here. Is there a way to disable all non-sub components in your full range enclosure so that only bass is played through them?
If yes, try adjusting the LPF on the subs for 100 Hz. That is still a good number for sub applications and there would be no gaps between F&R stages.
That KX-3 is a nice crossover unit. Many good features here. Definitely a device to build a solid 3-4 way system if you so choose. I like the 3 channel in/out approach used and each channel can be broken down to specific frequency bands. If you did add MB drivers in the rear side panels, this crossover gives very good control and can fill in the gaps you have now.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/23/2004 20:15:13
I believe the tweeters are disconnected allready, I used it as a sub because ,being it's in the trunk you couldn't hear the highs anyway. Would the side panels behind the front doors be a good location for a midbass speaker? Can I use a regular 8" sub as a midbass? I was thinking about the Kicker Comp 03C84 since the subs are kickers, the 8" kicker has a freq response of 30 - 0.5k Hz and can handle 100 watts. kicker also makes the SSMB8 which they call a mid bass but I'm not looking to spend $250 for a pair of 8's, thanks
swez on 11/23/2004 20:30:53
You'd have to remove the panel and check depth and the best location to mount MB drivers. But, yes... a pair of 8" MB drivers are basically subs with a little extended range. (50 - 150 Hz) would be plenty good.
Also, you may have to use some kind of acoustical dampening materials to prevent rattles and such on the panels. The more rigid you can make the install site, the better.
Finally, once you get the panel off and inspect the airspace available, consider using some kind of enclosure if possible. Most 8's will do well in a 0.1-0.3 cf airspace. The more airtight it is, the better your MB performance will be.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/25/2004 10:26:03
New question, would running one DVC 8" sub as the mid bass speaker have any adverse effects compared to running 2 SVC 8" subs??
compvr15s on 11/25/2004 14:27:15
no, the daul voice coil setup is just handy for more wiring options. with the two 8s you can expect a few more dbs. but say you have 2 svc subs at 4ohms and a mono channel amp, you either wire them in parrelell at 2 ohms or series at 8ohms, well at 8 omhs you subs wont be gettin much power. but if you have 2 daul 4ohm vc subs, you can wire each sub at either 2 ohms or 8omhs, then can wire them together at the amp for a 1omh load for a 4ohm load, its makes things alot easier in my opionion, i dont know the actaull reason why dual voice coils were created, usually not a difference in power handling. here is a site on parallel vs series wiring, gets into detail well.
swez on 11/25/2004 14:36:27
Nope, can even use as MONO channel as frequencies in this range are still omnidirectional. Once we get above ~300 Hz, stereo imaging is important and 2 channels are needed.
The trick here, is placement of the single MB driver. A small enclosure would sure be a good idea here. Mounting it in the rear passenger floor (center) and firing upward will work. As for amping this MB driver, won't need much power, depending on the efficiency of the driver used. If you used a 4+4 DVC 8", can use the HU amps to power them. If you amp them with another amp you have on hand, get a 2+2 DVC and use your Crunch amp in MONO to power it.
That Alpine 4 channel amp you have now... what model and power is it?
Swez
compvr15s on 11/25/2004 14:47:39
my bad i didnt even read the whole thread, i was just using a mono amp as example for the diference between single and dual vc subs. i guess i should have read the whole post, but did not mean to miss lead anybody, HAPPY
swez on 11/25/2004 15:04:57
You a funny guy CompVR... right idea, just not on the same page (lol) yet.... flip back a few posts to get a full picture of this application. Things will make more sense then.
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/25/2004 15:48:15
I was just thinking if I used a single DVC 8" sub I could just mount one, I figured the bass would be unidirectional (?) so having one wouldn't matter and being a DVC I would run both L & R to it. THe Alpine is an older 3554 4 ch, (55 x4 or 150 x2). I set my crossover to the freq. you suggested in a previous post, but the front speakers sounded like they were going to blow up so I set the crossover point back to where I had it. Thanks Happy Thanksgiving to all.
swez on 11/25/2004 21:09:01
That's either clipping from the HU, amp or the door speakers are not well dampened to handle low in the doors. They just flop wildly with too much bass.
There may be a few tricks to get around that. Mostly turning down HU bass control to "flat" (No boost, no cut) and no bass boost on amp either.
Subs and MB are considered omni (all) directional. Uni (one) direction is how the cone moves, but low frequencies spread out rapidly through the whole cabin. Midrange and tweeters tend to have a focal beaming affect. The higher the frequency thy play, the tighter the beam will become. (unless we use reflection or diffusers to spread out the beam.
Are you willing to invest a bit more time and $$ in better front stage speakers? If yes, that older 4 channel Alpine may be a very good amp for your front stage speakers.
The PPI is an excellent amp with the right sub setup. No need to change that at all.
As for the MB driver, that Crunch amp may do the job well enough. What model is that one? Got a link?
As for the MB driver to use, depends on how you plan to wire it to a given amp. If you used a 2+2 DVC (Kicker CVR8) that will handle 200 RMS alone in a 0.4 cf sealed box. You can wire each coil to 1 channel or bridge the amp MONO and run the DVC @ 4 ohms MONO. Same power either way.
What say you?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/25/2004 22:17:54
head unit is a pre-amp only deck ( sony xru770), bass and treble have been set to flat since I added the 3342 EQ, one of the front speakers was just removed ( for window related repairs), while I had it out I installed a dynamat extreme speaker kit that I had bought a few months ago, have to do the other door speaker maybe tomorrow. I think the crunch amp is a crunch 100 model, not 100% sure it was given to me when I was having problems with the alpine amp, for some reason the alpine amp kept shutting off for like 3 seconds every once in a while, not heat related, I've since hooked it up to my power supply with a extra HU I have and it was fine. Seems like all my equipment is about 10 years old with the exception of the speakers, crossover and CD changer LOL. I was just thinking of maybe just using 1 8" sub because I figured the bass would be omni directional and it would be easier to mount one, If the 8" sub has to be in an enclosure and if space permits in the side panel I would probably have to make a mold somehow of the space behind the panel to house the sub, not sure how to do that. The pioneers are rated 2-50 watts with a 220 watt peak and I am allready running about 100 watts into them, used to have 150 running them thru the alpine bridged, I know it's most often the distortion from an amp clipping that kills a speaker but I don't have the amp's gain up that much. Recently I turned the gain down because when the volume on the sony HU was low I was getting noise caused by the alpine EQ, turning the gain on the crunch amp down eliminated the noise, Would any 8" sub be ok or should I be looking for one advertised as being for mid-bass? Any recommendations on a 8" sub? I don't want to spend a fortune as I said earlier this is not a comp. system I just want it to sound decent. Thanks
swez on 11/26/2004 10:52:01
Most 8" woofers will function in the 40-500Hz range. Since you already have woofers to give you the deep lows and mid/highs to handle everything else above 100 Hz, the logical range of a MB driver would be ~50-150 Hz.
That means a LPF and perhaps an inline SS filter (50 Hz) to the amp that drives the MB speaker. That gives a true bandpass or notch filter to that specific driver.
As I read deeper into your posts, it seem like the weakest link in this system is the Pioneer front speakers. They are low power handling and have very poor low frequency characteristics as well. (they get sloppy) An option to upgrade these to a better Comp set seems like a good choice. Just a suggestion... but you can do the 8" MB driver if you wish.
The key to above average MB performance is the use of a sealed enclosure. This will help control cone travel and improve lower MB performance as well. However, the size of the enclosure may pose a space problem for you. This is a major thing to consider. "How much work will this be, to get it right"?
If you don't wish to buy an expensive MB driver to experiment with, can hop over to Partsexpress and have a look at 4 ohm woofer/MB drivers. Some are very inexpensive, but can handle power well. Others are pretty exotic and very expensive.
1. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-312
2. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-357 (8+8 DVC)
3. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-545
The key here, look for low Vas numbers. The lower the number, the less box space is needed to get good low end bass response. Vas is a spec that tells where the compliance of the speaker is equal to a free air design. Any air volume space greater than the Vas spec, says the sub is now operating like a free air (infinite baffle) speaker enclosure. The woofer I have shown you all have low Vas specs. In this application, that will matter. You don't have room for a 1.5 cf enclosure in a side panel, but you can probably get pretty close to 0.5 - 0.8 without a big ordeal.
Swez
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/26/2004 11:03:25
so a free air speaker would be ok to use? I would just have to dynamat ( or similiar) the inside of the body panel to reduce vibrations. I'll check out parts express I get their catalogs. I was thinking the same thing as far as the notch filter, I would set the crossover point at one freq, and than I was wondering about the other end and the thought had come to me about using like a F-Mod plug in x-over. As for the front speakers I had MB quart seperates years ago but they are long gone and it seems the new models went way up in price, I saw that crutchfield recently picked up the MB Quarts, what I originally was looking for was a 6 1/2" coaxial that could handle a decent amount of power but it seems that most of them don't. As for x-over setup I can set the rear freq at say 150htz and than use like an f-mod at 50 htz, this would limit the midbass to 50-150htz correct? So the way everything is now I would have the pioneers x-over at around 100-150, midbass at 150-50, and the subs at 50 and below. Maybe I'll start looking around at my options for new front components,
swez on 11/26/2004 11:22:10
Yes, you may use Free Air MB design if you wish. Just remember that in FA applications, power handling at low frequencies are about 50% of rated power when enclosed.
The crossover you mentioned for the MB is what I also had in mind. That combo is a very good option. F-Mod 50 Hz HP and set your amp HPF to ~150 Hz. A solid 12dB notch filter!
Have you heard anything about CDT? The Cl-61a is a great Comp set for $150.00 @ Zeb audio. Several guys have them now and love em. Much cheaper than MBQ's and high power handling too.
http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-CL-61A-6-1-2-inch-Component-System-101083.htm
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/26/2004 19:29:10
Never heard of CDT audio before, I pulled the side panel off today not sure if I could install a speaker there, depth is not a problem but it would involve a lot of metal cutting and the metal isn't flat at all, I was thinking maybe I could build the panel out, that way the hole I would need to cut would be smaller plus if I made a new panel out of wood it would be stiffer.
swez on 11/26/2004 20:20:58
Where have you been... under a rock all this time? lol We have been raving about CDT Classics ever since the price dropped to half what they normally sell at. (Spring 2004?)
I would suggest avoiding any panel cutting or metal work if at all possible. Is there some sort of console between the front seats that a small driver can be installed into? Or, small enclosure (0.3-0.5 cf) and install behind the front seats? The other option is to consider what's in the parcel shelf at the rear window. If you have speaker holes there, we might be able to work from that. I'd hate to see you carve up interior panels and still not get the results you desire.
Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/27/2004 13:29:26
I've been away from car audio for a while, I used to receive car audio and car stereo review mags every month, was a subscriber from their start. But drifted towards other things. Anyway, I don't really want to cut any panels or metal if necessary, no center console, no room to make one only about 5-6" between the 2 seats. No room behind seats, parcel shelf is narrow and not much room under it as the sub box and amps are there. Only place I can think of is under the drivers seat ( pass seat has CD changer under it), will have to measure space under seat to get exact size but there is more room than normally found under a seat. Possibly a "L" shaped box that slides under the dr. seat and also behind it, the box being taller behind the seat and lower under the seat to increase the size of the enclosure?? And use only one speaker.
swez on 11/27/2004 14:13:39
That "L" shaped enclosure sounds like a winner. Depending on the MB driver used, the actual box can be very minimal in overall dimensions. Say 0.3-0.5 ft^3 in all. That driver will need to be mounted on ~10"x10" baffle panel and deep enough to clear the overall depth of the woofer when mounted. Say 4-6" of depth, depending on the diver you choose.
A box of 6" H, 10" W and 10" L will net about 0.28 ft^3. The rest of the internal cf airspace needed will be made up in the part that slides under the seat. Get out your tape measure, (YOYO) and see what space is actually there.
The question is all about fabrication and space restrictions. Also, do not attemp to mount this MR driver directly under the seat. You will defeat the upper range of the speaker by firing it into a padded seat.
Are these bucket seats or bench style in this vehicle? Am wondering if you don't have much room behind the driver's seat, but have bucket seats.... moving the CD changer under the driver's seat and pulling up the passenger seat to make some room for this enclosure, may be a viable option.
The only other option I can think of, is to take a close look at the parcel shelf. Can a surface mounted enclosure be used on top the parcel shelf? Again, we are looking at a max dimension of ~10" D, 4-6" H and L is negotiable based on needs of the MR driver.
Hummmm, dumb question here... does this car have fold down rear seats in the back for access to the trunk?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/27/2004 17:51:56
No time to measure yet will do that tomorrow, seats are buckets, was thinking to gain slightly more clearance could always space the seat brackets up alittle. Parcel shelf is out no room on top, rear seats do not fold. What would minimum clearance between magnet assembly and bottom of enclosure be ? Using one speaker would I still want to use a DVC sub to run L & R channels to each voice coil? Thanks for the help
swez on 11/27/2004 20:25:06
This one ain't gonna go down easy huh? Well, we'll continue the saga some more. LOL
That DVC driver: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-357%20 This is the 8+8 DVC model discussed.
The OD of the sub is: 8.0"
The cutout dia is: 7-1/4"
The Depth is: 3-5/8"
So, we still need external dimensions mins of 10.5" x 10.5" face panel to mount it properly. Minimum "H" of the mount will be 5.5". Can use 1/2" - 5/8" MDF for the enclosure as this is a small driver and will not be used below 50 Hz. An enclosure of this basic dimension is 0.212 cf. The speaker displacement for a typical 8" driver is 0.03 cf. That puts net internal volume at 0.209 cf. A little on the small side as I am hoping for 0.3 - 0.4 cf internal air space. (0.35 cf would be very good if it will fit)
That overall dimension would need to be:
10.5" Width
16.5" Length
5.5" Height
===================================================
If we looked at a round tube enclosure, that size would be 10.0" dia., 9.0" long and 1/4" thick = 0.349 cf. Would that work better in your vehicle?
===================================================
Note: All parameters are with voice coils connected in parallel.
Specifications: *Power handling: 100 watts RMS/220 watts max
*Voice coil diameter: 1-1/2"
*Le: .5 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms per coil *Re: 3.7 ohms
*Frequency range: 44-3,000 Hz
*Fs: 51 Hz
*SPL: 90.8 dB 2.83V/1m
*Vas: .73 cu. ft.
*Qms: 4.46
*Qes: .75
*Qts: .64
*Xmax: 3.5 mm
*Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 8", Cutout Diameter: 7-1/8", Mounting Depth: 3-5/8".
Man, this is getting complicated huh? Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/27/2004 21:17:44
Yes, all those numbers are greek to me, LOL, tube as in say a bazooka tube? I had thought about using one or two of them and just laying them on the floor behind the seats, I'll take all the measurements tomorrow and get backto you
swez on 11/28/2004 09:51:32
Alreighty than... get out your best tape measure!
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/28/2004 21:19:50
ok, here's what I came up with, this may be hard to follow, from the floor to the bottom of the seat is about 4 1/2" - 5" could probably do 5" with a small spacer under seat brackets. The width from the center hump to the inside of the inner panel of the side of the car is 21 1/2" ( but this is narrows once you get to the rear of the seat brackets), from the base of the rear seat forward I got 24" but with the seat slid all the way back ( normal driving position) I got about 14". distance between the seat brackets is 14 1/2" ---- so to make it square I could probably do a 14" x 14" x 5" box, could go longer up under the seat . What do you do tho figure cu' ? is it L x W x H, divided by 12??
ahardb0dy on 11/28/2004 21:40:36
also, I have a yamaha amp 50 x4 or 120 x 2. it's an older amp the same guy that gave me the crunch gave me this one tto, it's a YPA-1000 I found a calculator for cu' and did some calculations, figuring for the thickness of the enclosure being either 3/4" or 1/2", The kicker sub mentioned earlier you said it should have a 0.4cu' box, I figured with a 1/2" thich box of 17 x 13 x 4 = ,51 cu' does that sound right? how would that be? Open to your suggestions.
cplkittle on 11/28/2004 21:49:01
just skimmed through the post, so maybe I missed something.. but for what it is worth, from my point of view...
for the same price of an 8" sub, an upgrade could be made on the middrivers up front, and replace alot of headache.
Take a look at these components.. This is a new brand on the market, we carry them at the store I work at. I have been VERY impressed by these speakers.
http://stores.ebay.com/Audio-Allies_Car-Speakers-Subs_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQsclZallQQsotimedisplayZ2QQtZkm
I would put these above JBL, Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, and Alpine's Type S series. That is if you decide against the CDTs.
swez on 11/29/2004 12:18:27
Good reference input there Kit... however, this gent is looking at a midbass driver he can load behind the seats. He has subs and decent F&R speakers already. The front speakers are the weakest link in the game so far.
That box dimension of 17x13x4 = 884 in^3/1728 = 0.51 cf. (external) Your net internal will be close to 0.333 cf minus sub displacement. The Kicker CompVR 8" has a mounting depth of 3-15/16". Too deep for this box, if the box is only 4" deep. (external)
Am beginning to wonder if we a just peeing into a stiff wind on this MB option. Just not enough room behind the seats to do the job at a price that makes sense.
Would you consider investing in some quality Component speakers in the front doors to get your MB/highs from there? The 6.5" Comps mentioned by Kittle make sense. The low price is definitely a plus and if he said they sound good, I'll take his word on that.
Since you have already had the doors off, it's just a matter of fitting the new Comps, adding sound deadener to the panels and button up and go. That option is looking more practical as we have been beating this old horse for sometime and no results to speak of.
What say you?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 11/29/2004 19:16:28
The measurements I listed were internal , so the .51 is the internal cu', I don't know about doing better components, I can't believe a 6 1/2" speaker will be able to handle the bass with out sounding like crap, maybe it's time to go audition some in person. For now I'm going to throw together a test box to see what will actually fit under/behind the seat, previously you mentioned tubes, were you referring to a bazooka tube or something else? Thanks
swez on 11/29/2004 20:28:13
OK, we can take this path a bit longer if you wish. Bazooka is one option. They are compact, easy to find and with some good shopping, you can get one for a reasonable price. The question is, will it fit?
This one seems to fit your general criteria in performance, but it is a DVC that is wired internally. I do not know if you can wire each coil independently with out some modifications. The length may also be an issue for your application. Here are the general specs and dimensions:
Key Features:
8" dual 4-ohm voice coil woofer
mounting straps and hardware included
gold-plated 5-way binding posts
frequency response 39-1,500 Hz
handles 200 watts RMS (100 watts per coil)
sensitivity 102 dB
8-9/16"W x 18-5/8"L x 10-1/16"H
warranty: 1 year
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rC5LtaWKNXD/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=510&id=essential_info&i=204BT8DVC
The other Bazooka tube that can be used is a SVC, 4 ohm, 8" sub kit. It has the same physical dimensions, a little less power handling and can be very useful off a 2 channel amp when bridged to MONO.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rC5LtaWKNXD/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=510&I=204BT8014&search=bazooka&wmsf=1
FYI: Since this is a MB driver which will only be passing 50-150 Hz audio, it will be fine to run in MONO of an amp. You'll get channels A&B from the HU to amp, but A&B signals will be summed to a single MONO output. At these frequencies, directionality is a minor issue as these frequencies are pretty much omni-directional in nature. Once we get above ~300 Hz., (midrange) then directionality is important for true stereo imaging.
Finally, I think it good to demo a few 6.5" Coaxials and Component speakers. There is good MB to be had from 6.5" drivers, when they are installed in a reasonably air leak free panel. That's where the sound deadening makes a notable difference.
NOTE: I have a pair of 5.25" MB drivers in my doors now. If I had more amp power (HU amping only) these sound very good already. Good low end MB and midrange and a stock tweeter are in the front doors now. If I was going to keep this car, I would install sound dampening material over the door panels and add a decent amp.
I had to replace one stock speaker as it was shot, so I bought a pair of real cheap Goldwood speakers from PE. The difference in MB/MR response was dramatic. That's with a 4 x 15 WRms stock HU amp. If I took them up to 50+ WRms with an outboard amp, I know they would sound very good.
Keep that in mind as you shop and listen,
Swez
PS In tube speaker designs, you can make your own from a Sono Tube. These come in various diameters, but work on the same principle as Bazooka. A 10" diameter (heavy cardboard) tube is needed to mate properly with an 8" sub. Home centers like Home Depot carry them and they are cheap. Just have to fabricate sub mounting rings and a bottom plate for termination. Round tube are very popular as sub columes for HT applications. No standing wave problems and since it is a perfect cylinder, very good enclosure design for bass and MB applications.
A cylinder of 10" OD, 1/4" wall thickness and 11" long will net an internal CF of 0.431 cf. You can paint it, carpet it or do what ever finish you wish. Being a cylinder, it is naturally a stong enclosure and well not flex as the air pressure inside the tube is equal at all points along the tube. Think about that one a bit.
ahardb0dy on 12/4/2004 20:12:47
Ok, mid bass speakers are now out of the picture, stopped at a local car audio store the other day, the smallest box for an 8" sub wouldn't fit under the seat so I've decided to upgrade my front speakers. Sorry for all your suggestions going to waste. The shop recommended the kicker 6 1/2" componnets not sure which model they were, I'll check out the CDT components again that you mentioned earlier. some one I know recommended a set of Koda 6.1MkII by Adire Audio they run $349 shipped, ever hear of them? In this price range what would you recommend? Also My sub box is a kicker fullrange box running as a sub, with the stock kicker ( cheap probably) 12" speakers that came with it, could I remove the tweeters and seal their holes and install normal subs in it? or should I just look for a whole new sub box? Are any of the premade sub boxes any good (mtx, rockford, etc) ? I sat in one of the installers cars at the store and the bass he had was crazy, I don't think you could listen to it the way he had it turned up but when the first bass note hit my whole body shook! He was running one jl audio 3 series 15" in a very large box ported powered by a jl audio 500/1 amp, in a 4 door honda. I'm not interested in my system being the boomiest just want to be able to turn it up and not have the subs sound like they're cracked. Thanks
swez on 12/4/2004 20:37:44
Not a bad plan... we had discussed this option before and it has merit.
Yes, Adire Koda's are a premium set of Comps. Are they really much better than CDT Classics at $150.00 a set? Not for the average listener. Yes, Adire makes some great speakers... but this may not be the best way to spend all your hard earned money.
That sub enclosure you have now, may indeed be a weakness. Yes, you can remove the tweeters and plug the holes, but what are the overall dimensions of this box? If we have cheap subs and a marginal sub enclosure ( I think your situaltion may be the case from what was said already) the effort is futile.
Can you get the exterior dimensions of this full range box? Need external "H", "W" and "D" here. With that, can give you some thoughts as to what to do next in the bass engine of your system.
Finally, the CDT's we talked about (CL-61a) is a very good option for the front stage. The rear stage can be stock speakers for MB (6x9's)
and a good set of subs. To get the best from a door mounted set of Comps, may need to use sound dampening here. If we know the box you have and the subs used, it would help a lot.
Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 12/4/2004 21:00:27
Thanks, I was going to ask about the dimensions of the box but figured I'd get them first. I have to dig around, a while back I wrote them all down I'll get back to you in a few minutes. Are rear speakers ( rear stage) absolutely necessary?
ahardb0dy on 12/4/2004 21:38:23
I had the measurements and had a guy at work who is very good with math figure out the volume but I can't find the paper, anyway here are the measurements from kickers manual, front height 13", rear height 10", width 36", depth 20"
swez on 12/5/2004 10:35:51
Looks like a pretty large box here... almost 5 cf external and roughly 1.5 cf per sub internally. Generally, Kicker subs like large enclosures.
Tried to access Kicker website for any details on the full range box you might have there. The site seems to be down for the moment. My best guess, you may have a bad crossover in that box or subs don't work properly in this size enclosure. However, the box seems about right for a pair of typical Kicker 12's.
The boomy sound you get from these subs at 80-100 Hz., seems to indicates these subs have low SPL efficiency at low sub frequencies and are more efficient as the frequency rises above ~60 Hz. Hard to say what you have entirely here as I have not heard your setup. Have you opened the box to see if it has any acoustical dampening materials like fiberglass insulation or polyfil?
If not, consider doing so and add about 1.5 - 3" of damping material on back, sides top & bottom panels, inside the box. This will help blank out cabinate resonances that often lead to boominess. A little EQ boost at 50-60 Hz will help and some cut at 80-100 Hz., can smooth out the boominess.
After that has been remedied, you may find you can increase the crossover frequency from your X3 crossover to 80 Hz., for smoother bass response.
Your other question about rear speakers being necessary... some guys use only quality front Comps and subs for the rear channel. Rear channel speakers can be a good source of MB, if full range speakers are not used or, the rear speakers have adequate LP filters to block highs. Really depends on the size, quality and power handling of the rear speakers. It's really more a preference... not a hard rule that we use rear deck speakers. (MB or full range Coaxials) Personally, I prefer rear fill. But some simplify the system to suit their tastes.
Comments,
Swez
PS What is the model number of that Kicker full range box? I'd like to review it's design and internal components before we make any drastic changes. (like replacing the box or subs)
ahardb0dy on 12/6/2004 16:54:32
kicker is a ss-120, they don't make them anymore and I didn't see any info on their web site, I e-mailed kicker a few days ago and as usual haven't heard anything from them yet. No poly fill or dampening in the box, only crossover I see in the box is for the tweeters ( looks like a small cap or something),
swez on 12/6/2004 22:33:45
Hummm, cannot find much on that full range combo... but I did find out what your car looks like, how old you are (39... happy birthday) and you live in Florida and work for Orange Co. How's that for an old snoop dawg?
Funny what info may turn up when you least expect it huh? Let's see what Kicker has to say?
Swez
PS A lucky day... I did find some info on SS-1200 series. Is this it?
http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/SSMan.pdf
ahardb0dy on 12/7/2004 19:56:47
Thank you, that box is similiar to mine, it may have been the model that came out after mine. So you saw my $580 POS car, LOL, just think both my PPI amp, and sony headunit cost more than the car did!! Still no response from kicker,
swez on 12/8/2004 10:17:47
Not surprising... large companies can have very slow response times to questions like this. Older products are often archived and it take a while (and a good searcher) to find the details and get back to you.
I found some info on you at a Nissan website you frequent. It came up when I did a google search on that box number you gave earlier.
Now, this box may still be useful. The overall dimensions are favorable to many subs in a 12" format. It is most suitable to subs that offer a larger Vas spec. (equivilent air space in a free air test) Kicker subs, are a good example of subs that like larger boxes. However, larger boxes can produce boominess too. (especially without acoustical sound dampening materials in them)
One thing you can try that is cheap and easy to do, is add sound dampening materials to the box. I mentioned that in an earlier post. Can use fiberglass house insulation, polyfil, medium pile carpet or even carpet padding materials will help absorb some of the rear cone reflections inside the box. This will usually knock down boominess in a large enclosure and absorb more of the upper bass energy that leads to boominess.
On one of my last experiments, I used 1" foam carpet padding. It seems to work just fine. I got if for free from a neighbor that was getting new carpet installed. The box was a sealed design (1.33 cf) per each sub. The subs were older 12" MTX Blue Thunders. They had a sealed spec of 1.50 cf/sub. (similar to your Kickers) I was very pleased with the deep lows and good frequency balance up to 100 Hz. These subs are rated at 200 Wrms, and I could push them to 400 Wrms w/o any undue distortion, as long as the amp was not clipping. The only thing that was not so hot, was the SPL levels I got from these subs. They are low efficiency (~86-87 dB/1w/1m) subs. I get much more bass output from a pair of dual 10's in a sealed box (~3.0 cf net) as these are higher efficiency subs. (90 dB SPL @ 1w/1m) Same input power too... 400 Wrms.
In short, try adding some fill material to each sub chamber and test them again at 50 Hz (LPF) and 80-100 Hz. (LPF) settings. I believe you will have a noticable difference in performance, (less boominess) in the upper bass ranges.
Comments?
Swez
ahardb0dy on 12/8/2004 18:07:10
I'll have to try that, so either one of the kicker subs would most likely work in my box? I know from a previous request that even the kicker comp's are supposed to be way better than what I have in the box now. quick ?, why does my box sound fine running fullrange, but crossed over as a sub it doesn't?
swez on 12/8/2004 20:47:00
Probably the horns are masking the short falls of a woofer, asked to extend, well beyond the range mos true subs work off.
It is most likely, that the horns do a good job above 3,000 Hz. But a true sub, is more like 25-250 Hz. (maybe even more narrow BW)
If these subs have a wider freq response needed, they may need some EQ or filtering to make them work most efficiently as low range subs.
Finally, the internal sound dampening material will help a good deal. But we may have to make some electronic adjustments to compensate for these woofers.
Swez
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