I have ordered a 4 channel amp (JL e4300) and before it comes i wanted to make sure i knew how to wire it up. I have read up on a lot of DIY webpages (e.g. crutchfield and others) but am not sure on the actual "applying it" part.
I am going to use that amp to power the 8 speakers on my Mitsu. Diamante 2001 w/infinty package. I am not replacing speakers yet. My car comes with a stock amp in the trunk which has a speaker wiring harness going into it and a 6 pin din cable from the head unit.
Since there are no wiring harness adapter available, i am going to have to cut the end of the speaker harness and splice wires into it and use the speaker level input on the amp. I already have a DIN to RCA adapter for signal to go from the stock stereo to the amp.
My first question is about the speaker to amps speaker level input. I just went out and counted the # of wires in the harness going to the stock amp (its midnight) and i counted a total of 16 wires, so i guess a pair for each speaker b/c i have 8 speakers in my car. The amp i ordered is 4 channel, so i am assuming its going to have a pair of connection for each channel...making 4 pairs.
I have more wires than channels on my amp, do i just put all the 6 speakers (-) wire to the (-) of the amp? and all the (+) speaker wire on the (+) amp terminal? Does that make it series or parallel?
Other question i have is that i have 4 gauge w/fuse coming from battery, what size inline fuse do i use, is there a calcuation?
Last question, i m using a distro. block, that going to convert that 4 guage into 8 guage. My amp ground has to be 4 or 8 guage?
Thanks a lot for your advice, sorry for the long post.
Replies (16)
uochronos on 11/18/2004 02:56:08
ok this is going to be a long response hehe. first off though nice amp choice. cant get much better then JL.
now first i well voice a couple concerns powering 8 speakers off a 4 chanel amp isnot that easy.... first off your running 2 speakers per channel on the amp. this well work assuming they are 4ohm speakers however many stock speakers especialy on stock amped system are not 4ohm they can be 2ohm, 4ohm, 6ohm, 8ohm, etc. if they arent 4ohm speakers you may not be able to wire them all up...
second any other odd things in the wirign etc in the infinity system could make this hard. Ttocs, and swez can tell you mroe about this when they respond.
now as for the speakers you well have 4 sets of - + on the amp. you well run the speakers in parrelel to it meaning run 2 negitive and 2 positives to each channel on the amp. thats assuming these are 4ohm speakers again.
as for the inline fuse it should be withen 2 feet of the batter and I perosnaly always use a ffuse thats 10-20amps more then my Amp is fused at. for insatnce i have a amp that is fused on the amp at 60amps anmd my fuse at the battery is 80amps.
as for the amp ground it should be the same as the power wire going into amp if you have a 8gauge going in 8 guage going out is fine. although bigger would not hurt but not really any gain either.
the others like Ttocs who are installer well be able to give you more help... but be prepared i dont belive this well be an easy install.
Chronos
PS
Good luck!
swez on 11/18/2004 08:23:00
Agreed, too many variables on the stock HU, amplifiers and speakers to advise you of your options. If you plan to keep the stock HU for now and just add an amp, there are issues and patch cables that may help.
Ttocs or UK-Installer will be good resources to guide you along on this one. I think there are patch kits to help make this conversion a bit easier. But an Aftermarket HU, new speakers will probably be the next move here. Let's see what our install gurus have in mind.
Swez
ttocs on 11/18/2004 19:10:25
ok first........
"as for the inline fuse it should be withen 2 feet of the batter and I perosnaly always use a ffuse thats 10-20amps more then my Amp is fused at. for insatnce i have a amp that is fused on the amp at 60amps anmd my fuse at the battery is 80amps."
---this is just plain bad info............ The fuse under the hood is derermined by the wire, not by the amp.. The wire howerver is determined by the amp. Meaning for a 8 awg wire, I never put in higher then a 40 amp fuse. If you need more then 40 amps, you should install 4 awg wire. That fuse is meant to blow if the wire shorts out. By the time the 8 awg got up to 80 amps it would have already melted, possably catching on fire before the fuse would blow. I would recommend changing that fuse, or installing a fire extinguisher with easy access.
Now for the question. You may be able to do that amp to the stock speakers, or you may not. You need to see what the impedence (ohms) value of the stock infinity speakers are. This does not take long, just need an ohm meter.
Only other parts you will need are pwr wire, fuse and fuse holder, ground wire, spkr wire, and a couple sets of rca's and remote wire.
Only other question for you is if you have changed the stock head unit?
sanbas on 11/18/2004 20:22:34
i guess thats why i am having a hard time getting a grasp of this whole car audio, people saying different things. All my research so far has been on diff forums. Oh well, i'll try to sort through it.
thanks, took me 2 weeks to finally decide on that JL audio amp.
No i havent changed the stock head unit. Here is a pic i drew to help understand how i am trying to do it, if its possible.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/ih8integ/e4300.jpg
Here is a pic of my stock amp. which is in there right now. The new JL e4300 amp hasnt arrived yet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/ih8integ/diamanteamp.jpg
Thanks for clearing up the fusing issue. I am using 4 gauge wire that will go into a distrubition block and then change into 8 gauge. The JL e4300 has a fuse rating of 40amps. So will a 40 amp inline (anl or anu) fuse be the best to use?
I am still confused on the actual wiring of the speakers to the amp part, want to be sure before i cut the harness off. And i just went and checked the speaker resistance (only checked the 6x9 in the rear, i am assuming the rest will all be the same??) and it came to 3 ohms. I think i did it right. I can post a pic. of the multimeter and its setting if you think i did it incorrectly.
Sorry for the long posts, i am trying to be as detailed as possible.
Thanks Again. I look forward to reading your replies.
sanbas on 11/18/2004 20:23:43
uochronos on 11/18/2004 23:38:35
umm ttocs could be a little nicer about that ouch hehe... as for bad info i think it was reasonable info... noone here has ever corrected me on that in 2 years... why now all of a sudden? also right now in my wifes care there is a 300watt class d amp. and i have 2 guage wire because i used to have a bigger amp in there... by your logic even though i have a 300watt amp pulls maybe 40amps at full volume. since i have 2 gauge wire i would fuse it at 80-100amps? because of the wire guage?? that seems like poor advice why not fuse it at 10-20 over the amp? 40-50amp fuse instead of the 100amp fuse that 2gauge could handle???? if someone is useing 8guage wire for a amp that was pulling 80amps screw the fuse by the battery thats just plain not logical weather it short out or not the amp well melt the wire...
didnt mean to cause a scene here but i'm confused how what you said is less wrong then what i said hehe. not trying to start a fight but trying to understand if what i said is wrong or if the way i worded it you think is wrong... i have been fusing like that for years and never had a problem...
Chronos
ttocs on 11/19/2004 01:31:35
I'm sorry if I came off harsh. I just like to keep things to the point and cut out the useless stuff. Didn't mean to come down too hard.
But, point is the amp is fused to protect itself while the wire is not. if you have ever seen 8 awg that had 80 amps on it you would understand. I have seen wires fused in similar ways that burned leaving a black line in carpet from the fron to the back, and the fuse intact. If the amp malfunctions internally it will blow the fuse in it. However if the wire shorts you are just out of luck. If I was running 2 awg to an amp like you described, I would personally put in a fuse no larger then what is needed(as you described) but the amp SHOULD be safe even with a 100 amp in it. If someone is running 8 awg wire that can pull 80 amps, that is just a bad idea..... I am glad that you have never had a problem with the way you have wired and fused your amps so far, but understand you are setting yourself up fer failure.
The amp determines the size of wire needed, the wire determines the size of fuse needed under the hood. Don't put the cart before the horse and run wire that is not appropriate for the amp.
Again, sorry if I came off harsh. didn't mean to hurt anyones feelings.
Back to the topic at hand. The reason I was asking about the head unit is that infinity is different from the stock HU. It runs a pre-amp (low level similar to an rca signal) to the amp. If you put a Line Out Converter(LOC) on those wires, you will get a VERY low signal to the amp. If you hook it in after the amp you may get a noisey signal. You may need to play with where you put it to get the best signal. That JL amp has onboard high level inputs to where you may not need a LOC. I have used them with success on the 500/1 and 1000/1, not on the E series.
I have wired into the infinity systems before and you are are the right place with the amp/hrns in the trunk(thnx for the pics). Cut the tape off of the hrns and cut the hrns far enough away(6-8 inches if you can) so that you can reconnect it if you ever need to. The speaker outputs are easy to figure out as they are somewhat color coded. To figure out what wires go to what speakers, Strip the insulation back a little and put a AA battery between them. The speaker corresponding to them will make a "pop". Probably need a buddy up front to tell you which is which.
Just curious, when you measured the speaker did you disconnect it from the amp? Forgot to mention....
P0werLifter on 11/19/2004 02:26:15
"ok first........
"as for the inline fuse it should be withen 2 feet of the batter and I perosnaly always use a ffuse thats 10-20amps more then my Amp is fused at. for insatnce i have a amp that is fused on the amp at 60amps anmd my fuse at the battery is 80amps."
---this is just plain bad info"
_______________________________________________________
OUCH thats gotta sting rather hard FROWN. Even after you've explained it all, i am still lost on it. Ive allways been told that you fuse the power wire per say at what the system draws. Say the total amperage draw of the system till be 200amperes. Then you fuse the powerwire for 200amperes by the battery since (I could be wrong) the power wire will carry as much current as the amplifier so desires. Therefor if you did fuse it at 200ampers,,,,and either the amp shorted, or the wire, the current spike from the short would blow the fuse.
I am confused as far as why you would fuse the battery at 40 if the amperage demand from the amplifier is at say 50...the demand from the amplifier would not be met due to the fuse blowing by the battery from the current being transfered through the wire.
I could all be screwed up here too, but im just saying, I have a 300ampere fuse by the battery and im running 0guage. The total amperage draw of the system (including efficiency factor of the amplifiers is >314amperes.[850/.5=1700 1700/13.5=125.92amperes.......2300/.9=2555.55 2555.55/13.5=189.30]. Havnt had any problems blowing the fuse yet, is my logic screwed up here or did i misinterperet the post?
swez on 11/19/2004 06:40:16
The methodolgy here is to protect both the amp(s) and the electrical system of the vehicle. Ttocs is correct on his point that we choose the wire gage that is suitable for the load. [amp(s) power draw]
Once we have established the proper wire gage to use, the correct fuse is one that opens if excess current draw, exceeds wire rating.
Common failure modes:
1. Power wire shorts to ground
2. Amp develops an internal short
3. Internal fuses (amp) do not blow
4. No internal amp fuses are present in the amp (external fuse is recommended here via a fused D-block)
Now, how do we determine the proper fuse value to use? The max fuse rating would be whatever the wire is designed to carry. The min fuse value to use is one that closely matches all amperage draw from devices on that line. (amp A + amp B + other devices = min fuse rating to use)
This is just like in our homes and apartments guys. The fuses (breakers) a located at the power source... fuse box. The fuses are chosen according to the wire size used on that circuit. (Ie: #14 wire is fuse at 15A, #12 is fused at 20A., etc.)
The reason car fuses/wiring are so much larger, is that we are dealing with a low volt system, not 120 volts. To supply high wattage amplifiers in our car systems, we depend on current (amperage) supplied by the ALT/BAT. The voltage in a car system is pretty much fixed at 12.0 volts min., and a max of just under 15 volts. (voltage regulator and ECM/BCM controls this output, based on monitored load demands in the vehicle)
FYI: IN ALL CASES, WE PROTECT THE MAIN ELECTRICAL SUPPLY DEVICES IN THE CHAIN, FROM EXCESS CURRENT DRAW. That includes wiring used and ALT/BAT.
Finally, it is very appropriate to "correct" an obvious error or mis-information when we catch them. That's to protect the end user and also to confirm the correct approach to be used. However, we are all human. We have different styles and personalities in the mix as well. We all make mistakes. THINK
A useful approach to use in the correction process, is to put ourselves in others shoes and deal with the issue like we would want others to deal with us. This way, we show respect for others and ourselves as we work through the issues. Many do a great job in this area... others are a bit more blunt or to the point. The Golden Rule applies here... "Treat others the way we desire to be treated". If that approach does not work, use the PM side of the board to address the issues, rather than venting them on the main forum. (do it privately please)
Swez
PS There is another "Golden Rule" too... "He who has the gold, (wealth) rules". GRIN That does not applied to Gold Members vs non-Gold members OK... We are here to help others learn many things. I learn something new almost every day here... maybe one thing will be to keep my big mouth shut and let others fight out their own issues. Then we could be like most other forum boards huh? I sure hope not.
NOT ON MY WATCH... USFLAG
sanbas on 11/20/2004 00:16:33
Thanks for the advice on cutting the factory harness further back...makes sense.
As for the fusing situation I looked up the manual at www.JLaudio.com and it says "40A fuse is recommended...AGU or Maxifuse type. So that answers that question. But is there no formula available where if you know the RMS watts of your amp. or amps and the operating voltage of your car battery (12-15V) you can come up with a min. and max. fuse size to use...i ask because i will add another amp later for subs. And any tables available which lists how many amps and wattage a particular gauge wire can hold? And i guess lenght is a factor also in that.
---- thanks for the help on that question ----
Still unsure of the speaker wiring to the amp, probably will understand better once i get the amp and look at its connections.
But i had some really dumb questions in the meantime...
1. Since my factor amp has only 2 connections on it, one input from stock headunit and the other output going to speakers.
A. Is this amp using speaker level outputs?
B. If it is, is it using a channel for each speaker, making it 16
channel amp(i know its not but i dont know what it is either)
C. Are my 8 speakers wired in series or parallel or neither? Does
series/parallel wiring apply to subs only or your regular
speakers also...seems like when ever i read about
series/parallel they are talking about subs.
Thanks, you guys have been a tremendous help so far!!!
ill ask more later
Pinch on 11/20/2004 01:41:56
Hey all, haven't posted in a while but I thought this topic was interesting so I wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
Sanbas in answer to your latest questions here goes:
Check the back of your speakers. If you see just a magnet, the amp has to be squirting out speaker level outputs (since the wires go directly from the stock amp to the speakers). If on the other hand, there is a "device" stuck to the magnet of each speaker, then the speakers are all individually amplified (as was the case in my 87 4Runner). This would make your job a bit more interesting.
Your next question can be answered (using deductive reasoning) by spending some time at your factory head unit. Why would anybody want 16 channels? Well, probably if they wanted to be able to controll 16 different widgets, or speakers individually. When you fade/balence what happens? Notice where sound comes from when you adjust your current system all the way to the front left for example. My guess is that you've got sound comming out of a couple of speakers somewhere in the left front hemisphere of your car (like a door speaker and a dash speaker or something). Next try the other 3 extremeties of adjustment If this yields similar results, you can probably assume you've got a front left channel, a front right channel, and two rear channels.
The thing is, you still have to come back to the fact that you've got a 4 channel amp slated to replace this x-channel amp. So where does that leave you? Hehe back at square one I suppose. I think now is a good time to play with a tone generator. (Or if you're without one, a 9V battery)
*Disclaimer*
DC voltage, as in the kind a battery squirts out, is bad for a speaker. Electrically a speaker is a wire spun around a cyllinder. We all know touching a bare wire across both terminals of a battery will heat up both the wire and the battery as a short circuit is created. Thus, connecting DC (a battery) to a speaker is a bad idea. Fortunately, we don't have to do that. We're going to sort of cheat and use a battery to supply AC to a speaker by connecting one terminal (say the negative one) and tapping the other quickly to the terminal and then removing it. This is essentially alternating current and will not damage your speaker since it is only 9V at several hundred milliamperes for a few milliseconds.
Phew didn't know I was going to write this much.
So, armed with your knowledge of speakers and 9V batteries, play. Figure out which wires comming out of your now disconnected factory amplifier are going to a set of speakers and apply the abovementioned battery technique and see what you hear. Likely you'll hear a quick pop out of whatever speakers are conected to those wires. Let's say that you hear sound out of your front right speakers. This tells you that they are connected somehow together. Disconnect one speaker and retry your experiment. If neither make a noise, you can assume they were connected in series and now there is no closed loop through which current can flow. If one of the speakers makes a noise, you can assume they were connected in parallel before because disconnecting one still leaves a path for current to flow.
As for your paralell/series question, those terms apply to conductive media in general. Technically speaking, you can apply the same exact theory to wires, speakers, traffic and even drinking straws. Think about it. Take two identical wires. If they're each 4 ohms you can expect several things. Wire them end to end (series), and a meter will read 8 ohms meaning it requires more work to get the same current through the wires since there is twice the length the current has to get through. Wire them such that both ends of both wires are connected and a meter will read 2 ohms (parallel). Now, the current has to travel the same distance as through just one conductor, but it has twice as many ways to get there. Half the current can go down one wire, and half can go to the other. Take 2 drinking straws and a milkshake, or 2 lengths of road during rush hour and repeat the experiment (in your head preforably :) Lemme know what you think.
Hope that helped.
Pinch
swez on 11/20/2004 02:22:15
Asking very good questions here. This install will go well as you seem to have a good grasp on how car audio works.
Wire chart:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t1
Your present amp will need a #8 gage wire to power it properly.
[8 awg, 52.5 amps current capacity, *** 435 watts RMS]
Note: *** This is a typical Class A/B amplifier used for full range music. Total watts drawn are 52.5 amps x 13.5 volts = 708 watts consumed. Output will be aprroximately 400 watts RMS, depending on actual voltage amp is getting.
If you are planning to add a sub amp later, think ahead to what size power amp you will use for your sub application. A #4 gage wire will handle 132 amperes of current safely. That gives you 132-40 = 92A in reserve for a very potent sub amp. Sure, you can use a smaller sub amp and still run off #4 wire. A Distribution block with built in fuses, will work just fine.
Like this one: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=BC-1428
This D-block is great for a pair of modest amps. Each #8 line can be fused up to 50A per leg. A sub amp (Class D MONO) that draws 50A of current can deliver up to 600 watts RMS to your sub(s).
The other question on the factory amp/HU generally works like this. We have low voltage signals from the HU, feeding the factory amps. Knowing what that HU output voltage is, would be most helpful in determining how to wire the factory HU to aftermarket amps. Then you have a power supply for the amplifiers and speaker outs. From your pic, it looks like the power, remote turn on and speaker wires are all on the large white connector. The other cable, is probably the HU signal wires. They are often bundled in a single cable but may have 8 or more pins that come from the HU pre-amp and feed audio signals to the factory amp through that connector.
You mentioned 8 speakers are used in this factory system. Where are they located and do you know what size speakers are used? It is very common to use a midrange and tweeter in each speaker location. Is this what you have now?
Ttocs, is there an aftermarket conversion harness that takes signals from the HU pre-amp, and converts them to RCA's? Am wondering if these Infinity systems use a balance (3 wire) or unbalance (2 wire) line output signal? Any thoughts on that one?
Swez
sanbas on 11/29/2004 20:41:23
thanks for all the awesome advice everyone!!!
I got the amp in and installed is yesterday, but with only the rear 2 speakers only. Didnt want to cut the stock harness and solder wires to it yet, or atleast until i figure out how they are wired (using PINCHs advice).
I think i have fever (as i write) from working out in the cold so I am going to wait till i feel better before I do the rest of the speakers.
During that time i had some questions. You know where the speaker wires go in to the amp, DO ALL AMPS HAVE THAT INPUT? and is that called speaker level "output"? if so then i think i could have bought the JL audio 300/4 amp and made it work with my setup also (which was a better amp), but it said it for the JL 300/4 didnt have speakerv level input and i thought i needed that. But i dont think i do b/c i am not using that connecting on my current JL e4300 amp. What exactly is that and used for and where do the wires that go to it come from?
Thankssss Again!!!!
p.s. once i get a chance to mess with figuring out my front speakers wiring ill have probably one last question.
sanbas on 11/29/2004 20:44:23
P.S. the rear 2 speakers sounded really low right after the install when i started to play a song, but then i went back and adjusted the setting from lowpass to off and now it the rear 2 sound great.
and i am using 14 gauge speaker wire from home depot. Thats enought right even after i upgrade my speakers to either mb quart or focals?
swez on 11/30/2004 09:00:33
Yes, #14 is fine for speakers at that wattage range.
How did you get your HU audio signal into the JL amp?
Swez
sanbas on 12/1/2004 13:52:44
there is an adapter available for it from METRA. Its a femaile 6 pin DIN cable to 4 RCA adapter. I can post a pic. for it up later.
I am going to use that amp to power the 8 speakers on my Mitsu. Diamante 2001 w/infinty package. I am not replacing speakers yet. My car comes with a stock amp in the trunk which has a speaker wiring harness going into it and a 6 pin din cable from the head unit.
Since there are no wiring harness adapter available, i am going to have to cut the end of the speaker harness and splice wires into it and use the speaker level input on the amp. I already have a DIN to RCA adapter for signal to go from the stock stereo to the amp.
My first question is about the speaker to amps speaker level input. I just went out and counted the # of wires in the harness going to the stock amp (its midnight) and i counted a total of 16 wires, so i guess a pair for each speaker b/c i have 8 speakers in my car. The amp i ordered is 4 channel, so i am assuming its going to have a pair of connection for each channel...making 4 pairs.
I have more wires than channels on my amp, do i just put all the 6 speakers (-) wire to the (-) of the amp? and all the (+) speaker wire on the (+) amp terminal? Does that make it series or parallel?
Other question i have is that i have 4 gauge w/fuse coming from battery, what size inline fuse do i use, is there a calcuation?
Last question, i m using a distro. block, that going to convert that 4 guage into 8 guage. My amp ground has to be 4 or 8 guage?
Thanks a lot for your advice, sorry for the long post.
Replies (16)
uochronos on 11/18/2004 02:56:08
ok this is going to be a long response hehe. first off though nice amp choice. cant get much better then JL.
now first i well voice a couple concerns powering 8 speakers off a 4 chanel amp isnot that easy.... first off your running 2 speakers per channel on the amp. this well work assuming they are 4ohm speakers however many stock speakers especialy on stock amped system are not 4ohm they can be 2ohm, 4ohm, 6ohm, 8ohm, etc. if they arent 4ohm speakers you may not be able to wire them all up...
second any other odd things in the wirign etc in the infinity system could make this hard. Ttocs, and swez can tell you mroe about this when they respond.
now as for the speakers you well have 4 sets of - + on the amp. you well run the speakers in parrelel to it meaning run 2 negitive and 2 positives to each channel on the amp. thats assuming these are 4ohm speakers again.
as for the inline fuse it should be withen 2 feet of the batter and I perosnaly always use a ffuse thats 10-20amps more then my Amp is fused at. for insatnce i have a amp that is fused on the amp at 60amps anmd my fuse at the battery is 80amps.
as for the amp ground it should be the same as the power wire going into amp if you have a 8gauge going in 8 guage going out is fine. although bigger would not hurt but not really any gain either.
the others like Ttocs who are installer well be able to give you more help... but be prepared i dont belive this well be an easy install.
Chronos
PS
Good luck!
swez on 11/18/2004 08:23:00
Agreed, too many variables on the stock HU, amplifiers and speakers to advise you of your options. If you plan to keep the stock HU for now and just add an amp, there are issues and patch cables that may help.
Ttocs or UK-Installer will be good resources to guide you along on this one. I think there are patch kits to help make this conversion a bit easier. But an Aftermarket HU, new speakers will probably be the next move here. Let's see what our install gurus have in mind.
Swez
ttocs on 11/18/2004 19:10:25
ok first........
"as for the inline fuse it should be withen 2 feet of the batter and I perosnaly always use a ffuse thats 10-20amps more then my Amp is fused at. for insatnce i have a amp that is fused on the amp at 60amps anmd my fuse at the battery is 80amps."
---this is just plain bad info............ The fuse under the hood is derermined by the wire, not by the amp.. The wire howerver is determined by the amp. Meaning for a 8 awg wire, I never put in higher then a 40 amp fuse. If you need more then 40 amps, you should install 4 awg wire. That fuse is meant to blow if the wire shorts out. By the time the 8 awg got up to 80 amps it would have already melted, possably catching on fire before the fuse would blow. I would recommend changing that fuse, or installing a fire extinguisher with easy access.
Now for the question. You may be able to do that amp to the stock speakers, or you may not. You need to see what the impedence (ohms) value of the stock infinity speakers are. This does not take long, just need an ohm meter.
Only other parts you will need are pwr wire, fuse and fuse holder, ground wire, spkr wire, and a couple sets of rca's and remote wire.
Only other question for you is if you have changed the stock head unit?
sanbas on 11/18/2004 20:22:34
i guess thats why i am having a hard time getting a grasp of this whole car audio, people saying different things. All my research so far has been on diff forums. Oh well, i'll try to sort through it.
thanks, took me 2 weeks to finally decide on that JL audio amp.
No i havent changed the stock head unit. Here is a pic i drew to help understand how i am trying to do it, if its possible.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/ih8integ/e4300.jpg
Here is a pic of my stock amp. which is in there right now. The new JL e4300 amp hasnt arrived yet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/ih8integ/diamanteamp.jpg
Thanks for clearing up the fusing issue. I am using 4 gauge wire that will go into a distrubition block and then change into 8 gauge. The JL e4300 has a fuse rating of 40amps. So will a 40 amp inline (anl or anu) fuse be the best to use?
I am still confused on the actual wiring of the speakers to the amp part, want to be sure before i cut the harness off. And i just went and checked the speaker resistance (only checked the 6x9 in the rear, i am assuming the rest will all be the same??) and it came to 3 ohms. I think i did it right. I can post a pic. of the multimeter and its setting if you think i did it incorrectly.
Sorry for the long posts, i am trying to be as detailed as possible.
Thanks Again. I look forward to reading your replies.
sanbas on 11/18/2004 20:23:43
uochronos on 11/18/2004 23:38:35
umm ttocs could be a little nicer about that ouch hehe... as for bad info i think it was reasonable info... noone here has ever corrected me on that in 2 years... why now all of a sudden? also right now in my wifes care there is a 300watt class d amp. and i have 2 guage wire because i used to have a bigger amp in there... by your logic even though i have a 300watt amp pulls maybe 40amps at full volume. since i have 2 gauge wire i would fuse it at 80-100amps? because of the wire guage?? that seems like poor advice why not fuse it at 10-20 over the amp? 40-50amp fuse instead of the 100amp fuse that 2gauge could handle???? if someone is useing 8guage wire for a amp that was pulling 80amps screw the fuse by the battery thats just plain not logical weather it short out or not the amp well melt the wire...
didnt mean to cause a scene here but i'm confused how what you said is less wrong then what i said hehe. not trying to start a fight but trying to understand if what i said is wrong or if the way i worded it you think is wrong... i have been fusing like that for years and never had a problem...
Chronos
ttocs on 11/19/2004 01:31:35
I'm sorry if I came off harsh. I just like to keep things to the point and cut out the useless stuff. Didn't mean to come down too hard.
But, point is the amp is fused to protect itself while the wire is not. if you have ever seen 8 awg that had 80 amps on it you would understand. I have seen wires fused in similar ways that burned leaving a black line in carpet from the fron to the back, and the fuse intact. If the amp malfunctions internally it will blow the fuse in it. However if the wire shorts you are just out of luck. If I was running 2 awg to an amp like you described, I would personally put in a fuse no larger then what is needed(as you described) but the amp SHOULD be safe even with a 100 amp in it. If someone is running 8 awg wire that can pull 80 amps, that is just a bad idea..... I am glad that you have never had a problem with the way you have wired and fused your amps so far, but understand you are setting yourself up fer failure.
The amp determines the size of wire needed, the wire determines the size of fuse needed under the hood. Don't put the cart before the horse and run wire that is not appropriate for the amp.
Again, sorry if I came off harsh. didn't mean to hurt anyones feelings.
Back to the topic at hand. The reason I was asking about the head unit is that infinity is different from the stock HU. It runs a pre-amp (low level similar to an rca signal) to the amp. If you put a Line Out Converter(LOC) on those wires, you will get a VERY low signal to the amp. If you hook it in after the amp you may get a noisey signal. You may need to play with where you put it to get the best signal. That JL amp has onboard high level inputs to where you may not need a LOC. I have used them with success on the 500/1 and 1000/1, not on the E series.
I have wired into the infinity systems before and you are are the right place with the amp/hrns in the trunk(thnx for the pics). Cut the tape off of the hrns and cut the hrns far enough away(6-8 inches if you can) so that you can reconnect it if you ever need to. The speaker outputs are easy to figure out as they are somewhat color coded. To figure out what wires go to what speakers, Strip the insulation back a little and put a AA battery between them. The speaker corresponding to them will make a "pop". Probably need a buddy up front to tell you which is which.
Just curious, when you measured the speaker did you disconnect it from the amp? Forgot to mention....
P0werLifter on 11/19/2004 02:26:15
"ok first........
"as for the inline fuse it should be withen 2 feet of the batter and I perosnaly always use a ffuse thats 10-20amps more then my Amp is fused at. for insatnce i have a amp that is fused on the amp at 60amps anmd my fuse at the battery is 80amps."
---this is just plain bad info"
_______________________________________________________
OUCH thats gotta sting rather hard FROWN. Even after you've explained it all, i am still lost on it. Ive allways been told that you fuse the power wire per say at what the system draws. Say the total amperage draw of the system till be 200amperes. Then you fuse the powerwire for 200amperes by the battery since (I could be wrong) the power wire will carry as much current as the amplifier so desires. Therefor if you did fuse it at 200ampers,,,,and either the amp shorted, or the wire, the current spike from the short would blow the fuse.
I am confused as far as why you would fuse the battery at 40 if the amperage demand from the amplifier is at say 50...the demand from the amplifier would not be met due to the fuse blowing by the battery from the current being transfered through the wire.
I could all be screwed up here too, but im just saying, I have a 300ampere fuse by the battery and im running 0guage. The total amperage draw of the system (including efficiency factor of the amplifiers is >314amperes.[850/.5=1700 1700/13.5=125.92amperes.......2300/.9=2555.55 2555.55/13.5=189.30]. Havnt had any problems blowing the fuse yet, is my logic screwed up here or did i misinterperet the post?
swez on 11/19/2004 06:40:16
The methodolgy here is to protect both the amp(s) and the electrical system of the vehicle. Ttocs is correct on his point that we choose the wire gage that is suitable for the load. [amp(s) power draw]
Once we have established the proper wire gage to use, the correct fuse is one that opens if excess current draw, exceeds wire rating.
Common failure modes:
1. Power wire shorts to ground
2. Amp develops an internal short
3. Internal fuses (amp) do not blow
4. No internal amp fuses are present in the amp (external fuse is recommended here via a fused D-block)
Now, how do we determine the proper fuse value to use? The max fuse rating would be whatever the wire is designed to carry. The min fuse value to use is one that closely matches all amperage draw from devices on that line. (amp A + amp B + other devices = min fuse rating to use)
This is just like in our homes and apartments guys. The fuses (breakers) a located at the power source... fuse box. The fuses are chosen according to the wire size used on that circuit. (Ie: #14 wire is fuse at 15A, #12 is fused at 20A., etc.)
The reason car fuses/wiring are so much larger, is that we are dealing with a low volt system, not 120 volts. To supply high wattage amplifiers in our car systems, we depend on current (amperage) supplied by the ALT/BAT. The voltage in a car system is pretty much fixed at 12.0 volts min., and a max of just under 15 volts. (voltage regulator and ECM/BCM controls this output, based on monitored load demands in the vehicle)
FYI: IN ALL CASES, WE PROTECT THE MAIN ELECTRICAL SUPPLY DEVICES IN THE CHAIN, FROM EXCESS CURRENT DRAW. That includes wiring used and ALT/BAT.
Finally, it is very appropriate to "correct" an obvious error or mis-information when we catch them. That's to protect the end user and also to confirm the correct approach to be used. However, we are all human. We have different styles and personalities in the mix as well. We all make mistakes. THINK
A useful approach to use in the correction process, is to put ourselves in others shoes and deal with the issue like we would want others to deal with us. This way, we show respect for others and ourselves as we work through the issues. Many do a great job in this area... others are a bit more blunt or to the point. The Golden Rule applies here... "Treat others the way we desire to be treated". If that approach does not work, use the PM side of the board to address the issues, rather than venting them on the main forum. (do it privately please)
Swez
PS There is another "Golden Rule" too... "He who has the gold, (wealth) rules". GRIN That does not applied to Gold Members vs non-Gold members OK... We are here to help others learn many things. I learn something new almost every day here... maybe one thing will be to keep my big mouth shut and let others fight out their own issues. Then we could be like most other forum boards huh? I sure hope not.
NOT ON MY WATCH... USFLAG
sanbas on 11/20/2004 00:16:33
Thanks for the advice on cutting the factory harness further back...makes sense.
As for the fusing situation I looked up the manual at www.JLaudio.com and it says "40A fuse is recommended...AGU or Maxifuse type. So that answers that question. But is there no formula available where if you know the RMS watts of your amp. or amps and the operating voltage of your car battery (12-15V) you can come up with a min. and max. fuse size to use...i ask because i will add another amp later for subs. And any tables available which lists how many amps and wattage a particular gauge wire can hold? And i guess lenght is a factor also in that.
---- thanks for the help on that question ----
Still unsure of the speaker wiring to the amp, probably will understand better once i get the amp and look at its connections.
But i had some really dumb questions in the meantime...
1. Since my factor amp has only 2 connections on it, one input from stock headunit and the other output going to speakers.
A. Is this amp using speaker level outputs?
B. If it is, is it using a channel for each speaker, making it 16
channel amp(i know its not but i dont know what it is either)
C. Are my 8 speakers wired in series or parallel or neither? Does
series/parallel wiring apply to subs only or your regular
speakers also...seems like when ever i read about
series/parallel they are talking about subs.
Thanks, you guys have been a tremendous help so far!!!
ill ask more later
Pinch on 11/20/2004 01:41:56
Hey all, haven't posted in a while but I thought this topic was interesting so I wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
Sanbas in answer to your latest questions here goes:
Check the back of your speakers. If you see just a magnet, the amp has to be squirting out speaker level outputs (since the wires go directly from the stock amp to the speakers). If on the other hand, there is a "device" stuck to the magnet of each speaker, then the speakers are all individually amplified (as was the case in my 87 4Runner). This would make your job a bit more interesting.
Your next question can be answered (using deductive reasoning) by spending some time at your factory head unit. Why would anybody want 16 channels? Well, probably if they wanted to be able to controll 16 different widgets, or speakers individually. When you fade/balence what happens? Notice where sound comes from when you adjust your current system all the way to the front left for example. My guess is that you've got sound comming out of a couple of speakers somewhere in the left front hemisphere of your car (like a door speaker and a dash speaker or something). Next try the other 3 extremeties of adjustment If this yields similar results, you can probably assume you've got a front left channel, a front right channel, and two rear channels.
The thing is, you still have to come back to the fact that you've got a 4 channel amp slated to replace this x-channel amp. So where does that leave you? Hehe back at square one I suppose. I think now is a good time to play with a tone generator. (Or if you're without one, a 9V battery)
*Disclaimer*
DC voltage, as in the kind a battery squirts out, is bad for a speaker. Electrically a speaker is a wire spun around a cyllinder. We all know touching a bare wire across both terminals of a battery will heat up both the wire and the battery as a short circuit is created. Thus, connecting DC (a battery) to a speaker is a bad idea. Fortunately, we don't have to do that. We're going to sort of cheat and use a battery to supply AC to a speaker by connecting one terminal (say the negative one) and tapping the other quickly to the terminal and then removing it. This is essentially alternating current and will not damage your speaker since it is only 9V at several hundred milliamperes for a few milliseconds.
Phew didn't know I was going to write this much.
So, armed with your knowledge of speakers and 9V batteries, play. Figure out which wires comming out of your now disconnected factory amplifier are going to a set of speakers and apply the abovementioned battery technique and see what you hear. Likely you'll hear a quick pop out of whatever speakers are conected to those wires. Let's say that you hear sound out of your front right speakers. This tells you that they are connected somehow together. Disconnect one speaker and retry your experiment. If neither make a noise, you can assume they were connected in series and now there is no closed loop through which current can flow. If one of the speakers makes a noise, you can assume they were connected in parallel before because disconnecting one still leaves a path for current to flow.
As for your paralell/series question, those terms apply to conductive media in general. Technically speaking, you can apply the same exact theory to wires, speakers, traffic and even drinking straws. Think about it. Take two identical wires. If they're each 4 ohms you can expect several things. Wire them end to end (series), and a meter will read 8 ohms meaning it requires more work to get the same current through the wires since there is twice the length the current has to get through. Wire them such that both ends of both wires are connected and a meter will read 2 ohms (parallel). Now, the current has to travel the same distance as through just one conductor, but it has twice as many ways to get there. Half the current can go down one wire, and half can go to the other. Take 2 drinking straws and a milkshake, or 2 lengths of road during rush hour and repeat the experiment (in your head preforably :) Lemme know what you think.
Hope that helped.
Pinch
swez on 11/20/2004 02:22:15
Asking very good questions here. This install will go well as you seem to have a good grasp on how car audio works.
Wire chart:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t1
Your present amp will need a #8 gage wire to power it properly.
[8 awg, 52.5 amps current capacity, *** 435 watts RMS]
Note: *** This is a typical Class A/B amplifier used for full range music. Total watts drawn are 52.5 amps x 13.5 volts = 708 watts consumed. Output will be aprroximately 400 watts RMS, depending on actual voltage amp is getting.
If you are planning to add a sub amp later, think ahead to what size power amp you will use for your sub application. A #4 gage wire will handle 132 amperes of current safely. That gives you 132-40 = 92A in reserve for a very potent sub amp. Sure, you can use a smaller sub amp and still run off #4 wire. A Distribution block with built in fuses, will work just fine.
Like this one: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=BC-1428
This D-block is great for a pair of modest amps. Each #8 line can be fused up to 50A per leg. A sub amp (Class D MONO) that draws 50A of current can deliver up to 600 watts RMS to your sub(s).
The other question on the factory amp/HU generally works like this. We have low voltage signals from the HU, feeding the factory amps. Knowing what that HU output voltage is, would be most helpful in determining how to wire the factory HU to aftermarket amps. Then you have a power supply for the amplifiers and speaker outs. From your pic, it looks like the power, remote turn on and speaker wires are all on the large white connector. The other cable, is probably the HU signal wires. They are often bundled in a single cable but may have 8 or more pins that come from the HU pre-amp and feed audio signals to the factory amp through that connector.
You mentioned 8 speakers are used in this factory system. Where are they located and do you know what size speakers are used? It is very common to use a midrange and tweeter in each speaker location. Is this what you have now?
Ttocs, is there an aftermarket conversion harness that takes signals from the HU pre-amp, and converts them to RCA's? Am wondering if these Infinity systems use a balance (3 wire) or unbalance (2 wire) line output signal? Any thoughts on that one?
Swez
sanbas on 11/29/2004 20:41:23
thanks for all the awesome advice everyone!!!
I got the amp in and installed is yesterday, but with only the rear 2 speakers only. Didnt want to cut the stock harness and solder wires to it yet, or atleast until i figure out how they are wired (using PINCHs advice).
I think i have fever (as i write) from working out in the cold so I am going to wait till i feel better before I do the rest of the speakers.
During that time i had some questions. You know where the speaker wires go in to the amp, DO ALL AMPS HAVE THAT INPUT? and is that called speaker level "output"? if so then i think i could have bought the JL audio 300/4 amp and made it work with my setup also (which was a better amp), but it said it for the JL 300/4 didnt have speakerv level input and i thought i needed that. But i dont think i do b/c i am not using that connecting on my current JL e4300 amp. What exactly is that and used for and where do the wires that go to it come from?
Thankssss Again!!!!
p.s. once i get a chance to mess with figuring out my front speakers wiring ill have probably one last question.
sanbas on 11/29/2004 20:44:23
P.S. the rear 2 speakers sounded really low right after the install when i started to play a song, but then i went back and adjusted the setting from lowpass to off and now it the rear 2 sound great.
and i am using 14 gauge speaker wire from home depot. Thats enought right even after i upgrade my speakers to either mb quart or focals?
swez on 11/30/2004 09:00:33
Yes, #14 is fine for speakers at that wattage range.
How did you get your HU audio signal into the JL amp?
Swez
sanbas on 12/1/2004 13:52:44
there is an adapter available for it from METRA. Its a femaile 6 pin DIN cable to 4 RCA adapter. I can post a pic. for it up later.
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