Victor and I were chatting in the chatroom and he asked me what equipment I had... so of course, I told him.
When he found out that I had a 700w (at 2ohms) class a/b amp that was going to power a 300w 4+4 ohm Alpine Type-R sub... he told me that I was completely stupid and that I should have never gotten into car audio. No, he didn't really... I just feel that way though.
We both wanted further advice on what to do with this... here are links to the equipment:
Alpine Type-R 4+4 12" subwoofer:
http://iweb.alpine-usa.com/pls/admn/item_info?p_item_name=SWR-1241D&p_category=70&p_subcategory=150&p_main=10&p_more=y
Quantum Audio Q700.1 class a/b amplifier:
http://quantumaudio.net/quantamp.html
Hopefully you guys can help me with this...
Thanks guys.
Replies (21)
swez on 11/17/2004 20:47:48
Well, yes... th amp is pretty strong for a 300 RMS sub, but if you set your gains properly and avoid clipping the amp, the sub will be worked pretty hard, but with a clean signal. You can dial back on the gains a tad more so that the sub does not get a full 700 RMS.
I have been experimenting with a pair of older MTX Blue Thunder Subs. They are rated at 200 RMS (4 ohm SVC's) and a single sub has remained pure and intact at +400 RMS with a Peavey Pro (CS-800) amp. This amp has compression limiters and Clipping meters as well. As long as I get a clean signal, (a few blips on the clipping lamp) the sub sounds great and strong.
What's that say? A relatively old and low tech sub can take 2x it's RMS ratings and not succumb to "poof goes the voice coil". True, only about 20 minutes of testings and not sine wave generator test either, but nonetheless, it takes it!
NOTE: This is a sealed enclosure. They are 1.3cf (int) and 1" fill on all walled surfaces. MTX recommended 1.25 - 1.50 cf sealed per sub. Can only be used sealed. The EBW is too low to use in ported enclosures.
"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it" !!!
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/17/2004 21:02:05
Yeah, Victor mentioned the gains.... but not clipping... how do I avoid that?
He's right... the amp does seem a little much for one sub...
I would love to be able to afford an Alpine/Memphis/Xtant (any high quality class d) amp, but this one is going to have to settle for now, unless I come across $200 and a person to sell this amp too.
Anybody else have input?
Victor on 11/17/2004 23:42:12
well we can do one thing about it for the time being.. but u will have to be aware not to play the sub at extreme high volumes.. 70%vol wud be fine..
u need to make a 0.6-0.7cuft sealed enclosure lined with 1/2"fill on the walls..
turn the gain knob between at 0.5 to 1v...
i think that shud do the trick..
what do u say swez??
comments...??
Victor...
ttocs on 11/18/2004 00:22:39
Question to me is, is it 300 watts PER coil, or 300 watts total that the sub can take?
In either case, I would MUCH rather over pwr a sub(with a clean signal), rather then underpower it... Case in point is how many uf us have blown speakers off of a measly 15-25 watt deck? Clipping will blow a speaker no matter too much or too little pwr, but you are more likely to clip an under powered signal then an over powered..........
P0werLifter on 11/18/2004 00:57:03
I agree with Swez, and ttocs on this one. As long as the subwoofer isnt getting a clipped signal, and its clean power overpowering the sub will not be much of a problem (within reason).
My XXX is rated at 1600watts RMS and im going to feed it 1800for daily, and 2300 for short bursts. Id much rather overpower the sub with clean power, then underpower the sub with clipped, distorted power.
swez on 11/18/2004 07:11:23
What to do... determine the output of your HU RCA's and adjust your amp gain accordingly. Meaning, if you HU puts out say 2.0 volts at 75% max power, set your amp gain to between 3-4 volts. Go easy on any bass boost features you have on that amp too. These can really get you in trouble. A +3-6dB boost should be all that is ever needed on weak bass tracks.
A sub rated at 300 RMS can survive "short bursts" of energy that are double the rated power. However, test tones and long, drawn out bass notes at excess power levels (heat) are very hard on a sub. Excessive heat kills sub coils.
Read this: http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Swez
PS If you have a volt meter, measure the voltage at the speaker terminals of the amp. We know the sub ohmic load is 2 ohms nominal, but does change dramatically with frequency. Using Ohm's Law, you can determine the watts.
Voltage ^2/R = Power (in watts)
V^2/2 = 300-500 watts
Min Voltage: 24.5 x 24.5 = 600.25/2 = 300 watts
Max Voltage: 32 x 32 = 1024/2 = 512 watts
That's the operating voltage range to target for your setup. Your average voltage reading of 24.5 volts will get you to 300 watts RMS. The peak voltage should not exceed ~30-32 volts.
Hope that helps,
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/19/2004 00:11:25
Would there be any way to limit the amp to a continuous 400w? Limit the peak?
ttocs on 11/19/2004 01:07:56
nope
swez on 11/19/2004 07:54:22
Actually, there are a few things we can use to limit power output from an amp and protect the subs.
1. Fuse the sub
2. Install a shunting lamp or a thermal switch to bleed off excess power
Can use a fuse to insure excess wattage does not get to the sub coils. In this case, we have to realize a typical car fuse is slow acting and will take short duration bursts of excess power, before it blows. What size fuse to use? Well, we know the subs nominal ohmic load is 2 ohms. We also know the target wattage is 400. The current draw here is determined by Ohms Law:
http://www.installer.com/tech/ohmslaw.html
We know these variables:
P = 400 watts
R = 2 ohms (nominal)
E = ~28.4 volts
I = P/E Current = 400/28.4 = 14 amperes = I (Current)
To double check our math, we can use sq root of P/R:
400/2 = 200 sq rt of 200 is 14.1 amperes We match!
Since it will be very difficult to find a 14 amp fuse and we know that size fuse will take more wattage and time til it blows, I would consider using a standard fuse between 7.5 -10 Ampere rating and measure voltage at which the fuse actually blows. Remember... the voltage is approximately 28.4 volts to a 2 ohm load. (~400 watts)
The shunting lamp also works effectively to reduce excess input watts to a given driver. This one...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-659
Will pass up to 250 watts nominal power before it activates the lamps and bleeds off excess wattage to a driver. I have seen them used in Pro System crossovers to protect expensive tweeters and midrange speakers. When input power to the entire 2/3-way system exceeds rated speaker design, the lamp come on and bleeds off extra wattage to tweets and MR, but does not effect woofer input watts.
Here, a fixed or variable resistor can be added in series ( I think) to the lamp, (voltage divider circuit) to increase input wattage before the lamp (bleeder circuit) goes on. You know you have reached 400 watts input to the system when the voltage is ~28.4 volts and the lamp lights. Figuring out the proper resistance needed is the tricky part. A call to Tech Service at PE may be most helpful in figuring out the proper resistance and power rating of that resistor.
What say you all?
Swez
Victor on 11/19/2004 10:15:59
Very very useful piece of info... always expected something like this from swez... i was on the verge of suggesting this but then thought that this kinda extreme tech knowledge wud strike a debate..
this kinda stuff is very rarely used and suggested in car audio.. nothing wrong in it.. quite useful piece of knowledge.. but shud be done with extra care and shud not be experimented with incase of incomplete understanging of the phenomenon..
i wud suggest you do not do this until swez or one of us actually give u the precise fuse ratings and walk u thru the process of setting it up....
regarding the shunting lamp.. i still have my own doubts about it.. they are usually used for high pass crossovers to limit the power being supplied to the high freq drivers..
using them wud be a lot more tricky cuase i dont have much indepth knowledge about it.. better ask swez..
comments...??
Victor...
aposynthesi on 11/19/2004 19:47:21
I will probably break down one day and buy an amp that suits my setup more... but for now I have this one. If I could sell it to someone, I would; I probably wont even begin installing the subwoofer until next year anyways... oh well. I'll think of it as punishment for not consulting the board before buying it.
I'm up for doing anything.... so whatever you guys can come up with, I will do. I learn fast... Swez and Victor, you guys have been of immense help once again.
Victor on 11/20/2004 00:12:21
lol.. hey dude.. i dont think u need to break down.... keep that face smiling.. hold on to what u have right now. we shall definitely lead u to an acceptable solution ... so that u can continue using this setup till u save enough money for a complete bass machine setup..
dont take of it as a punishment.. its more of a learning experience.. see the amount of knowledge u are extracting from all of us in this process.. its really good for u and everyone on this forum..
everyone learns from mistakes.. the only thinkg is that the smarter guys learn from the experience of others..hehe..lol.. just joking.. dont take it personally..
Victor...
swez on 11/20/2004 01:16:51
Hummmm, let's try to keep things in perpective here OK? I see a guy with 1 fine sub and a pretty stout amp. Why is he so miserable?
There have been several ways suggested to bridge the power gap issues between the two. None are very complex or take extraordinary cost to try any of them. The two most simple and cost effective measures are:
1. Dial up the amp gain
2. Install a fuse between amp & sub
Gain adjustments:
Suppose the HU puts out say 2.0 volts at 75% max power, set your amp gain to between 3-4 volts. Go easy on any bass boost features you have on that amp too. These can really get you in trouble. A +3-6dB boost should be all that is ever needed on weak bass tracks. If we use this method, we have effectively reduced amp output to a safe range and it can be verified with a simple voltage test.
Fused Method:
Consider using a standard fuse between 7.5 -10 Ampere rating and measure voltage at which the fuse actually blows. Remember... the voltage is approximately 28.4 volts to a 2 ohm load. (~400 watts) Some electronics shopping can get you a fuse holder and a handful of fuses for under $10.00. The fuse is installed in series, between the amp and sub. Fuse the + terminal line for best results.
All is not lost. You have a few good options here. No need to get all down in the mouth. I'd rather have this problem than some other crazy stuff I have been through in the past, to worry about. This is not the worst decision you've ever made. Nor will it be the last. How's that for cheering you up? HAPPY
Relax and fire up that amp, sub combo before it gets too cold,
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/20/2004 10:35:41
Nooo you guys got me wrong, I'm not breaking down or anything... I just feel bad for buying this amp as a spur of the moment type thing...
Where would I get the fuse holder to hold a fuse that is so small?
Would I still need a #4 wiring kit? The sub only has #8 terminals. I do have a long car though.
How would I test the amps gain voltage? The aren't any notches to show me where it is.
What would be the safest way to go?
swez on 11/20/2004 19:19:54
Sometimes, the best way to learn something important, is to make a few mistakes. It's part of life... get used to it and grow from it. (I've survived worse mistakes, U can 2)
A simple fuse holder is fine. A #12 -10 gage wire is plenty good when short runs are used.
This one is water proof and uses standard ATO (automotive) fuses. Has a #10 gage pigtail too. Most car audio shops carry this style of fuse as well.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=070-675
The best place to test amp voltage is off the sub terminals or the amp terminals with sub as a load. We are testing AC voltage, so you need a multi-meter that can test ohms, AC & DC voltage. Under $20.00 at WalMart.
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/20/2004 23:29:18
Alright, so I'm going to order that, and should I go ahead and order some wire from them too... or just get a wiring kit from a car audio shop? What size should I get to connect the amp to the battery - #4 or #8?
swez on 11/21/2004 08:31:52
Plan ahead on this one. A #4 gage will be needed for this amp and if you add a 2nd mid/high amp later, there room to grow with #4 wiring.
You can buy all these items at most local shops and have it in a day. No need for a big name (expensive) wirinig kit either. Good RCA's are the most important part of the package. An 80A fuse will be good, at the BAT.
If you want a quality line set, look here: Under $40.00
1. ATO fuse for sub:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=FH-210
2. #4 wiring kit:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOLAK4
3. A few 7.5A & 10A ATO fuses (any good auto parts store)
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/21/2004 23:47:11
Alright, I'll order those tomorrow.
What kind of RCA's should I look for? Where would I get them?
aposynthesi on 11/22/2004 10:22:35
Hah. Nevermind.... KnuKonceptz actually gives them to you with the kit.
aposynthesi on 11/23/2004 15:18:04
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uochronos on 11/23/2004 15:19:45
No problem glad we could help you out.... hopefully it sounds good.
When he found out that I had a 700w (at 2ohms) class a/b amp that was going to power a 300w 4+4 ohm Alpine Type-R sub... he told me that I was completely stupid and that I should have never gotten into car audio. No, he didn't really... I just feel that way though.
We both wanted further advice on what to do with this... here are links to the equipment:
Alpine Type-R 4+4 12" subwoofer:
http://iweb.alpine-usa.com/pls/admn/item_info?p_item_name=SWR-1241D&p_category=70&p_subcategory=150&p_main=10&p_more=y
Quantum Audio Q700.1 class a/b amplifier:
http://quantumaudio.net/quantamp.html
Hopefully you guys can help me with this...
Thanks guys.
Replies (21)
swez on 11/17/2004 20:47:48
Well, yes... th amp is pretty strong for a 300 RMS sub, but if you set your gains properly and avoid clipping the amp, the sub will be worked pretty hard, but with a clean signal. You can dial back on the gains a tad more so that the sub does not get a full 700 RMS.
I have been experimenting with a pair of older MTX Blue Thunder Subs. They are rated at 200 RMS (4 ohm SVC's) and a single sub has remained pure and intact at +400 RMS with a Peavey Pro (CS-800) amp. This amp has compression limiters and Clipping meters as well. As long as I get a clean signal, (a few blips on the clipping lamp) the sub sounds great and strong.
What's that say? A relatively old and low tech sub can take 2x it's RMS ratings and not succumb to "poof goes the voice coil". True, only about 20 minutes of testings and not sine wave generator test either, but nonetheless, it takes it!
NOTE: This is a sealed enclosure. They are 1.3cf (int) and 1" fill on all walled surfaces. MTX recommended 1.25 - 1.50 cf sealed per sub. Can only be used sealed. The EBW is too low to use in ported enclosures.
"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it" !!!
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/17/2004 21:02:05
Yeah, Victor mentioned the gains.... but not clipping... how do I avoid that?
He's right... the amp does seem a little much for one sub...
I would love to be able to afford an Alpine/Memphis/Xtant (any high quality class d) amp, but this one is going to have to settle for now, unless I come across $200 and a person to sell this amp too.
Anybody else have input?
Victor on 11/17/2004 23:42:12
well we can do one thing about it for the time being.. but u will have to be aware not to play the sub at extreme high volumes.. 70%vol wud be fine..
u need to make a 0.6-0.7cuft sealed enclosure lined with 1/2"fill on the walls..
turn the gain knob between at 0.5 to 1v...
i think that shud do the trick..
what do u say swez??
comments...??
Victor...
ttocs on 11/18/2004 00:22:39
Question to me is, is it 300 watts PER coil, or 300 watts total that the sub can take?
In either case, I would MUCH rather over pwr a sub(with a clean signal), rather then underpower it... Case in point is how many uf us have blown speakers off of a measly 15-25 watt deck? Clipping will blow a speaker no matter too much or too little pwr, but you are more likely to clip an under powered signal then an over powered..........
P0werLifter on 11/18/2004 00:57:03
I agree with Swez, and ttocs on this one. As long as the subwoofer isnt getting a clipped signal, and its clean power overpowering the sub will not be much of a problem (within reason).
My XXX is rated at 1600watts RMS and im going to feed it 1800for daily, and 2300 for short bursts. Id much rather overpower the sub with clean power, then underpower the sub with clipped, distorted power.
swez on 11/18/2004 07:11:23
What to do... determine the output of your HU RCA's and adjust your amp gain accordingly. Meaning, if you HU puts out say 2.0 volts at 75% max power, set your amp gain to between 3-4 volts. Go easy on any bass boost features you have on that amp too. These can really get you in trouble. A +3-6dB boost should be all that is ever needed on weak bass tracks.
A sub rated at 300 RMS can survive "short bursts" of energy that are double the rated power. However, test tones and long, drawn out bass notes at excess power levels (heat) are very hard on a sub. Excessive heat kills sub coils.
Read this: http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Swez
PS If you have a volt meter, measure the voltage at the speaker terminals of the amp. We know the sub ohmic load is 2 ohms nominal, but does change dramatically with frequency. Using Ohm's Law, you can determine the watts.
Voltage ^2/R = Power (in watts)
V^2/2 = 300-500 watts
Min Voltage: 24.5 x 24.5 = 600.25/2 = 300 watts
Max Voltage: 32 x 32 = 1024/2 = 512 watts
That's the operating voltage range to target for your setup. Your average voltage reading of 24.5 volts will get you to 300 watts RMS. The peak voltage should not exceed ~30-32 volts.
Hope that helps,
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/19/2004 00:11:25
Would there be any way to limit the amp to a continuous 400w? Limit the peak?
ttocs on 11/19/2004 01:07:56
nope
swez on 11/19/2004 07:54:22
Actually, there are a few things we can use to limit power output from an amp and protect the subs.
1. Fuse the sub
2. Install a shunting lamp or a thermal switch to bleed off excess power
Can use a fuse to insure excess wattage does not get to the sub coils. In this case, we have to realize a typical car fuse is slow acting and will take short duration bursts of excess power, before it blows. What size fuse to use? Well, we know the subs nominal ohmic load is 2 ohms. We also know the target wattage is 400. The current draw here is determined by Ohms Law:
http://www.installer.com/tech/ohmslaw.html
We know these variables:
P = 400 watts
R = 2 ohms (nominal)
E = ~28.4 volts
I = P/E Current = 400/28.4 = 14 amperes = I (Current)
To double check our math, we can use sq root of P/R:
400/2 = 200 sq rt of 200 is 14.1 amperes We match!
Since it will be very difficult to find a 14 amp fuse and we know that size fuse will take more wattage and time til it blows, I would consider using a standard fuse between 7.5 -10 Ampere rating and measure voltage at which the fuse actually blows. Remember... the voltage is approximately 28.4 volts to a 2 ohm load. (~400 watts)
The shunting lamp also works effectively to reduce excess input watts to a given driver. This one...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-659
Will pass up to 250 watts nominal power before it activates the lamps and bleeds off excess wattage to a driver. I have seen them used in Pro System crossovers to protect expensive tweeters and midrange speakers. When input power to the entire 2/3-way system exceeds rated speaker design, the lamp come on and bleeds off extra wattage to tweets and MR, but does not effect woofer input watts.
Here, a fixed or variable resistor can be added in series ( I think) to the lamp, (voltage divider circuit) to increase input wattage before the lamp (bleeder circuit) goes on. You know you have reached 400 watts input to the system when the voltage is ~28.4 volts and the lamp lights. Figuring out the proper resistance needed is the tricky part. A call to Tech Service at PE may be most helpful in figuring out the proper resistance and power rating of that resistor.
What say you all?
Swez
Victor on 11/19/2004 10:15:59
Very very useful piece of info... always expected something like this from swez... i was on the verge of suggesting this but then thought that this kinda extreme tech knowledge wud strike a debate..
this kinda stuff is very rarely used and suggested in car audio.. nothing wrong in it.. quite useful piece of knowledge.. but shud be done with extra care and shud not be experimented with incase of incomplete understanging of the phenomenon..
i wud suggest you do not do this until swez or one of us actually give u the precise fuse ratings and walk u thru the process of setting it up....
regarding the shunting lamp.. i still have my own doubts about it.. they are usually used for high pass crossovers to limit the power being supplied to the high freq drivers..
using them wud be a lot more tricky cuase i dont have much indepth knowledge about it.. better ask swez..
comments...??
Victor...
aposynthesi on 11/19/2004 19:47:21
I will probably break down one day and buy an amp that suits my setup more... but for now I have this one. If I could sell it to someone, I would; I probably wont even begin installing the subwoofer until next year anyways... oh well. I'll think of it as punishment for not consulting the board before buying it.
I'm up for doing anything.... so whatever you guys can come up with, I will do. I learn fast... Swez and Victor, you guys have been of immense help once again.
Victor on 11/20/2004 00:12:21
lol.. hey dude.. i dont think u need to break down.... keep that face smiling.. hold on to what u have right now. we shall definitely lead u to an acceptable solution ... so that u can continue using this setup till u save enough money for a complete bass machine setup..
dont take of it as a punishment.. its more of a learning experience.. see the amount of knowledge u are extracting from all of us in this process.. its really good for u and everyone on this forum..
everyone learns from mistakes.. the only thinkg is that the smarter guys learn from the experience of others..hehe..lol.. just joking.. dont take it personally..
Victor...
swez on 11/20/2004 01:16:51
Hummmm, let's try to keep things in perpective here OK? I see a guy with 1 fine sub and a pretty stout amp. Why is he so miserable?
There have been several ways suggested to bridge the power gap issues between the two. None are very complex or take extraordinary cost to try any of them. The two most simple and cost effective measures are:
1. Dial up the amp gain
2. Install a fuse between amp & sub
Gain adjustments:
Suppose the HU puts out say 2.0 volts at 75% max power, set your amp gain to between 3-4 volts. Go easy on any bass boost features you have on that amp too. These can really get you in trouble. A +3-6dB boost should be all that is ever needed on weak bass tracks. If we use this method, we have effectively reduced amp output to a safe range and it can be verified with a simple voltage test.
Fused Method:
Consider using a standard fuse between 7.5 -10 Ampere rating and measure voltage at which the fuse actually blows. Remember... the voltage is approximately 28.4 volts to a 2 ohm load. (~400 watts) Some electronics shopping can get you a fuse holder and a handful of fuses for under $10.00. The fuse is installed in series, between the amp and sub. Fuse the + terminal line for best results.
All is not lost. You have a few good options here. No need to get all down in the mouth. I'd rather have this problem than some other crazy stuff I have been through in the past, to worry about. This is not the worst decision you've ever made. Nor will it be the last. How's that for cheering you up? HAPPY
Relax and fire up that amp, sub combo before it gets too cold,
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/20/2004 10:35:41
Nooo you guys got me wrong, I'm not breaking down or anything... I just feel bad for buying this amp as a spur of the moment type thing...
Where would I get the fuse holder to hold a fuse that is so small?
Would I still need a #4 wiring kit? The sub only has #8 terminals. I do have a long car though.
How would I test the amps gain voltage? The aren't any notches to show me where it is.
What would be the safest way to go?
swez on 11/20/2004 19:19:54
Sometimes, the best way to learn something important, is to make a few mistakes. It's part of life... get used to it and grow from it. (I've survived worse mistakes, U can 2)
A simple fuse holder is fine. A #12 -10 gage wire is plenty good when short runs are used.
This one is water proof and uses standard ATO (automotive) fuses. Has a #10 gage pigtail too. Most car audio shops carry this style of fuse as well.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=070-675
The best place to test amp voltage is off the sub terminals or the amp terminals with sub as a load. We are testing AC voltage, so you need a multi-meter that can test ohms, AC & DC voltage. Under $20.00 at WalMart.
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/20/2004 23:29:18
Alright, so I'm going to order that, and should I go ahead and order some wire from them too... or just get a wiring kit from a car audio shop? What size should I get to connect the amp to the battery - #4 or #8?
swez on 11/21/2004 08:31:52
Plan ahead on this one. A #4 gage will be needed for this amp and if you add a 2nd mid/high amp later, there room to grow with #4 wiring.
You can buy all these items at most local shops and have it in a day. No need for a big name (expensive) wirinig kit either. Good RCA's are the most important part of the package. An 80A fuse will be good, at the BAT.
If you want a quality line set, look here: Under $40.00
1. ATO fuse for sub:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=FH-210
2. #4 wiring kit:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOLAK4
3. A few 7.5A & 10A ATO fuses (any good auto parts store)
Swez
aposynthesi on 11/21/2004 23:47:11
Alright, I'll order those tomorrow.
What kind of RCA's should I look for? Where would I get them?
aposynthesi on 11/22/2004 10:22:35
Hah. Nevermind.... KnuKonceptz actually gives them to you with the kit.
aposynthesi on 11/23/2004 15:18:04
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uochronos on 11/23/2004 15:19:45
No problem glad we could help you out.... hopefully it sounds good.
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