Very detailed tests conducted by Eddie Runner , on the effects of woofer aiming and orientetion in a car..
very nice adn useful one indeed.. especially for all u SPL lovers..
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html
comments...??
Victor..
Replies (11)
alanjlamore on 11/14/2004 12:23:05
That is interesting. I was hoping one of the tests were a mid sized truck (maybe a dodge dakota ext cab hehehe).
I'll be putting in my new sub boxes probably in the nex 2 weeks or so...
I don't know if I should point them up, angle them tward the middle, or face them tward the rear?????
Oh well, I'll have plenty of room to experiment.
I currently have them facing up and have noticed a lot better low end bass when I open my windows, and notice the highs are louder when I close the windows.....
aposynthesi on 11/15/2004 07:59:11
I've been wondering about this... never remembered to research it though.
Thanks Vic
Tinker18 on 11/17/2004 11:36:43
you guys think when there is a sub behind the seats in a single cab, and the sub is close to the seats as to almost firing into it, that you would get cancelation from sound waves hitting the seat and bouncing back at the sub?
Victor on 11/17/2004 15:50:10
I think there is will be a problem but probably not cancellation..it can of-course be there if there is a distance of a quater wavelenght between the sub and the back of the seat.. cause the sound will travel 1/4 wavelength from the sub to the seat and then another from the seat to the sub making it a 1/2 wavelenght wich means 180' phase difference which can cause a lot of cancellation..
another problem will be sound compression and unwanted noise as there will be less space for the air to escape and the sound will have to escape with great force thru less space..
also there will be more vibrations then sound.. so may be feeling the bass will be more than hearing it actually..
since the sound waves will be bouncing back at the subs there will be unecessary pressure on the driver and it wont function effectively..
comments...??
Victor...
asplundher on 05/27/2005 17:38:33
I don't readily agree. I have seen & done several installs with the enclosure fitted against the rear seat that resulted in clean tight bass. Low notes were well defined with barely any exaggeration or peaks in the subs range. Up front bass was not off.
If that were exactly true, even infinite baffle subs would not work good for they are setup the same way. The problem is that you will never be able to predict accuratley unless you have extensive acoustic measuring equipment. For the average installer the only measurer you have are your ears. You will have to try and see if you like it for your own tastes; for every car and every ear are not the same.
Before anyone starts a debate, let me finish by saying that results will rely heavily upon the car. Backwards, forwards, up against the rear seat, deep in the trunk..they all work. The car's acoustics mostly and your own particular ears will have the final say.
swez on 05/27/2005 23:26:24
Have seen this guys' work before and read all his info too. In most cases, he is spot on with the measured results in a sedan, SUV or hatchback. The RTA and calibrated mike are not telling lies. However, our ears can be fooled into thinking we have great bass performance (at low) frequencies... but there is definitely a cancellation effect if the woofer cone(s) are too close to a fixed objects. (Ie: back seats, rear tailgate, door panels, side wells or trunk lid)
If you look at the graphs carefully, all can produce a good degree of bass energy at 40-55 Hz. Above that range, cancellations can definitely come into play between 60-100 Hz. That's where our ears get fooled. It sounds strong at 40-60 Hz., but tails off rapidly above that frequency band. The SPL difference we hear at 40-55 Hz is so much greater than what we hear at 60-100 Hz, we don't really notice the dB losses until sweep frequencies are employed. Then, we can really hear the difference.
Oh, in a truck body, most guys get best overall bass SPL from up firing and side to side firing subs. Floor mounted subs are good as they have a larger space between woofer cone and headliner of the truck interior. There is also some "acoutical coupling" from the floor too.
Side firing subs can do OKl too. The more distance between a solid reflective/absorbing surface we can get between the cone and opposing surfaces, the better bass propagation we will get.
Hope that helps,
Swez
PS Gee Victor... that's a re-tread from a few months back. But, still useful info to our new readers. Thanks for the recall.
Victor on 05/28/2005 01:39:36
Yes Dave, There are many many posts out there which can be re-called for our readers,
Few are such which have loads of information , if they are re-called our readers will benifit from it and also it will save us a lot of time and energy to repeat the same things again and again.
Victor...
swez on 05/28/2005 10:20:51
Agreed! Just happened to remember this one, as he did such a great job at testing and showing definitive results. Also recalled his debates with Tom Nousaine... (Car audio Guru).
Thought the debate was absolutely foolish on Tom's part. The test results were done in a very practical manner and data was published as to what the results happened to come out like. Using theory out of a book or two is fine for starters. But what we get in measurable terms in real world conditions are much more important. Looks like Tom needs an ego and reality tune up???
Swez
lessismorespl on 05/28/2005 22:34:34
I always refer to this site, Eddie's references are not only useful, but can be enjoyable reading b/c he often males the articles fun.
In 24 yrs, only in the past 3 years or so did I begin to notice the difference aiming enclosures, or building the enclosure so the subs fire in a specific direction really makes. Now I make it part of every install(if applicable) to arrange the subs for best response within the cabin of the vehicle. In some cases it cannot be done, but in a large percentage of my installs it can.
Once I find what I call the "sweet spot" I take velcro and staple it to the bottom of ea. corner of the enclosure to prevent the enclosure from shifting around in everyday driving. It works quite well and still allows access to the spare and other things you may need.
There are many variables, but if yu read both articles, aiming 1 and aiming 2, there is not only some detailed testing, but many useful suggestions. Eddie Runner has been doing this for years and seldom makes a reference or statement w/out being able to back it up w/ detailed proof and fact.
If I was to pick 2 people in the car audio world I have learned the most from, it would 1. Richard Clark and 2. Eddie Runner.
asplundher on 05/29/2005 11:48:01
Does he refer to rear corner loading in any of these articles? I wouldn't mind seeing the results on that as well. I'm looking at making that a possible on my next install. I've done one before in a 99 Intrepid with one ten. After moving it around and trying different locations, I found that to be the best compromise in good sound and saving space. I think I posted it here at a earlier time.
swez on 05/29/2005 14:26:26
Don't think I saw anything relating to that in the article. But yes, your idea of corner loading the sub as noted will work. You'll get a few dB
bump that way. Hard to say what frequencies will be boosted most w/o tools... but, this is pretty much an adaption of folded corner horns for bass.
The main thing, if it sounds best to your ears there... that's good enough.
Swez
very nice adn useful one indeed.. especially for all u SPL lovers..
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html
comments...??
Victor..
Replies (11)
alanjlamore on 11/14/2004 12:23:05
That is interesting. I was hoping one of the tests were a mid sized truck (maybe a dodge dakota ext cab hehehe).
I'll be putting in my new sub boxes probably in the nex 2 weeks or so...
I don't know if I should point them up, angle them tward the middle, or face them tward the rear?????
Oh well, I'll have plenty of room to experiment.
I currently have them facing up and have noticed a lot better low end bass when I open my windows, and notice the highs are louder when I close the windows.....
aposynthesi on 11/15/2004 07:59:11
I've been wondering about this... never remembered to research it though.
Thanks Vic
Tinker18 on 11/17/2004 11:36:43
you guys think when there is a sub behind the seats in a single cab, and the sub is close to the seats as to almost firing into it, that you would get cancelation from sound waves hitting the seat and bouncing back at the sub?
Victor on 11/17/2004 15:50:10
I think there is will be a problem but probably not cancellation..it can of-course be there if there is a distance of a quater wavelenght between the sub and the back of the seat.. cause the sound will travel 1/4 wavelength from the sub to the seat and then another from the seat to the sub making it a 1/2 wavelenght wich means 180' phase difference which can cause a lot of cancellation..
another problem will be sound compression and unwanted noise as there will be less space for the air to escape and the sound will have to escape with great force thru less space..
also there will be more vibrations then sound.. so may be feeling the bass will be more than hearing it actually..
since the sound waves will be bouncing back at the subs there will be unecessary pressure on the driver and it wont function effectively..
comments...??
Victor...
asplundher on 05/27/2005 17:38:33
I don't readily agree. I have seen & done several installs with the enclosure fitted against the rear seat that resulted in clean tight bass. Low notes were well defined with barely any exaggeration or peaks in the subs range. Up front bass was not off.
If that were exactly true, even infinite baffle subs would not work good for they are setup the same way. The problem is that you will never be able to predict accuratley unless you have extensive acoustic measuring equipment. For the average installer the only measurer you have are your ears. You will have to try and see if you like it for your own tastes; for every car and every ear are not the same.
Before anyone starts a debate, let me finish by saying that results will rely heavily upon the car. Backwards, forwards, up against the rear seat, deep in the trunk..they all work. The car's acoustics mostly and your own particular ears will have the final say.
swez on 05/27/2005 23:26:24
Have seen this guys' work before and read all his info too. In most cases, he is spot on with the measured results in a sedan, SUV or hatchback. The RTA and calibrated mike are not telling lies. However, our ears can be fooled into thinking we have great bass performance (at low) frequencies... but there is definitely a cancellation effect if the woofer cone(s) are too close to a fixed objects. (Ie: back seats, rear tailgate, door panels, side wells or trunk lid)
If you look at the graphs carefully, all can produce a good degree of bass energy at 40-55 Hz. Above that range, cancellations can definitely come into play between 60-100 Hz. That's where our ears get fooled. It sounds strong at 40-60 Hz., but tails off rapidly above that frequency band. The SPL difference we hear at 40-55 Hz is so much greater than what we hear at 60-100 Hz, we don't really notice the dB losses until sweep frequencies are employed. Then, we can really hear the difference.
Oh, in a truck body, most guys get best overall bass SPL from up firing and side to side firing subs. Floor mounted subs are good as they have a larger space between woofer cone and headliner of the truck interior. There is also some "acoutical coupling" from the floor too.
Side firing subs can do OKl too. The more distance between a solid reflective/absorbing surface we can get between the cone and opposing surfaces, the better bass propagation we will get.
Hope that helps,
Swez
PS Gee Victor... that's a re-tread from a few months back. But, still useful info to our new readers. Thanks for the recall.
Victor on 05/28/2005 01:39:36
Yes Dave, There are many many posts out there which can be re-called for our readers,
Few are such which have loads of information , if they are re-called our readers will benifit from it and also it will save us a lot of time and energy to repeat the same things again and again.
Victor...
swez on 05/28/2005 10:20:51
Agreed! Just happened to remember this one, as he did such a great job at testing and showing definitive results. Also recalled his debates with Tom Nousaine... (Car audio Guru).
Thought the debate was absolutely foolish on Tom's part. The test results were done in a very practical manner and data was published as to what the results happened to come out like. Using theory out of a book or two is fine for starters. But what we get in measurable terms in real world conditions are much more important. Looks like Tom needs an ego and reality tune up???
Swez
lessismorespl on 05/28/2005 22:34:34
I always refer to this site, Eddie's references are not only useful, but can be enjoyable reading b/c he often males the articles fun.
In 24 yrs, only in the past 3 years or so did I begin to notice the difference aiming enclosures, or building the enclosure so the subs fire in a specific direction really makes. Now I make it part of every install(if applicable) to arrange the subs for best response within the cabin of the vehicle. In some cases it cannot be done, but in a large percentage of my installs it can.
Once I find what I call the "sweet spot" I take velcro and staple it to the bottom of ea. corner of the enclosure to prevent the enclosure from shifting around in everyday driving. It works quite well and still allows access to the spare and other things you may need.
There are many variables, but if yu read both articles, aiming 1 and aiming 2, there is not only some detailed testing, but many useful suggestions. Eddie Runner has been doing this for years and seldom makes a reference or statement w/out being able to back it up w/ detailed proof and fact.
If I was to pick 2 people in the car audio world I have learned the most from, it would 1. Richard Clark and 2. Eddie Runner.
asplundher on 05/29/2005 11:48:01
Does he refer to rear corner loading in any of these articles? I wouldn't mind seeing the results on that as well. I'm looking at making that a possible on my next install. I've done one before in a 99 Intrepid with one ten. After moving it around and trying different locations, I found that to be the best compromise in good sound and saving space. I think I posted it here at a earlier time.
swez on 05/29/2005 14:26:26
Don't think I saw anything relating to that in the article. But yes, your idea of corner loading the sub as noted will work. You'll get a few dB
bump that way. Hard to say what frequencies will be boosted most w/o tools... but, this is pretty much an adaption of folded corner horns for bass.
The main thing, if it sounds best to your ears there... that's good enough.
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
