Hey guys, I'm going to be building my sealed box for my 2 Infinity kappa perfect 10.1 subs (4 ohm SVC), but before I do, I was wondering how I should change the design of the box according to my vehicle.
I have a Dodge Dakota ext. cab (mid sized truck) and I don't know if I should make the box bigger or smaller than recomended by the manufacturer because it is a small space compared to a car.
Infinity recomends .60 cu ft.
Should I just use one of those large formulas to get the size of the box instead? And if so, is there a formula for sealed boxes that takes into account the size of the vehicle's space?
USFLAG Thanks, USFLAG
USFLAG alan USFLAG
Replies (18)
P0werLifter on 11/6/2004 15:19:25
alls you need to do really to build a new box...is get the dimensions you have to work with then from there, multiply Height X Width X Depth Divided by 1728. That will give you the cubic Feet of the enclosure.
alanjlamore on 11/6/2004 15:41:39
I mean, should I make the box bigger, or smaller because I have a smaller area inside the truck as opposed to a car or SUV.
Are there formulas that tell what cubic footage you should use for your sub, that also has the size of the vehicle factored into it?
I know how to build the box once I get the cubic feet that I want. I just don't know if I should go with the .6 cu ft or make it bigger or smaller due to the small interior size of a pickup truck.
swez on 11/6/2004 17:05:41
Unfortunately, Infinity does not give us much leeway for enclosure specs. They tend to state a flat number like 0.6ft^3 per sub.
Why? My guess is that they have modeled their subs based on power handling ratings and not overall performance preferences. We all know that a larger enclosure will deliver more deep bass than a small one. But a larger box also provides less air pressure to keep the sub from bottoming out at rated power.
So, instead of beefing up the motor suspension system to make it more robust, (that costs more to do) they spec the box and power limits tighly, to limit warrantee failure returns. Yes, a tech can quickly determine the cause of sub failure and if it was abused or misused. That can signal a "NOPE.... no warrantee exchange here as the sub was abused" response.
OK, that's the why... now, What can you do?
1. Make a dimensional drawing of the space you have available for these subs. If you have the space to use a ported design (1.0 ft^3/sub) Then go that route for more deep bass and a few extra dB of SPL. Port tune the enclosure to say 30-35 Hz. (depending on the type of music you prefer.
2. If that size box is just too large for your space, drop to a sealed enclosure and start with ~0.75ft^3/sub. This is not an overly large box and your subs should be able to handle ~600 RMS for the pair.
3. After the box is fabricated and the subs have been broken in, determine the max limits of power you can feed them before the subs start to sound a bit off. (high distortion, cones seem to go out of control or loose SQ) Then dial back on the power until good SPL/SQ performance is reached. That's your limiting factors.
Personally, I would not cover the box initially until fully tested and subs are well broken in. (10-12 hours of play) If they sound good after that, finish as you wish and enjoy tweaking and tinkering with the electronics aspects of the HU and amp.
However, if you find the sub sound sloppy and cone excursion in a larger box is too great. (coils bottom out... "frapppp" sounds) Then adjust the size of the box by either cutting panels to decrease interior air space or add a few 2x4 boards to bring enclosure back to under .70 cf/sub.
What say you Alan?
Swez
ttocs on 11/6/2004 19:40:22
the only reason the size of the vehicle will effect the size of the enclosure is if there is not enough space. You should biuld the box as close the recommended airspace no matter what size the vehicle is. You generally have two demensions that you cannot play with, and one that you adj to get the right size. For instance if your truck has 20" height, and 60" across, you then adj the depth to get the right airspace.
alanjlamore on 11/6/2004 20:31:52
Okay, thanks. That cleared it up a lot (as usual here ;) )
I should have enough space in all directions now that I've decided to remove one seat in the back and just use the smaller one, and put it in the middle, with the sub boxes on each side and the amps under the seat.
I can't wait to get going, I still need to buy a BP600.1 amp, more wood/glue/nails and a set of kick pannels for the front speakers, then I'll be all set for a while.
The only problem I'm going to run into next is having a space to work on the truck. I just moved upstairs from my parents (with my wife and daughter) to save some money for a year to put a big down payment on a house, and they don't have a garage. I can work out in their yard, but it's getting colder and colder here now (upstate NY).
I'll be able to suck it up though. Thanks for all the advice guys!!!! As promissed long ago, I will give a nice donation when I complete my install (nice for what I can give anyway).
USFLAG HAPPY GRIN HAPPY THANKS AGAIN!!! I'M ALMOST DONE!! HAPPY GRIN HAPPY USFLAG
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
ttocs on 11/6/2004 23:38:44
no nails......... It does not work well on mdf, you will just end up splitting it unless you pre-drill holes. The shops that I worked at always used glue and brads from a gun. Alot of people use wood screws and glue which is a better alternatived(again as long as you pre-drill) but is more time consuming. Where you working from?
swez on 11/7/2004 01:13:16
I have tried both long brads and screws. Either way, always pre-drill the holes and use plenty of glue. The glue is what really holds the wood together. The nails or screws give stabilty to the joints until the glue has cured.
Why pre-drill the holes? To prevent the wood from splitting as we drive in the nails or screws. A 3/4" thick board can seem pretty narrow for a #8 screw. The center point of a 3/4" stock MDF board is 3/8". If you are off by 1/8", the board will split or drive through the inner or outer walls.
What size screw to use? Coarse threaded #6-8 drywall screws, 1-5/8" long are perfect. Plenty of bite and gripping power here.
How large a pilot hole? With brads (1/16") or screws (1/8") bit (respectively) seems to work well in the boxes I have made. Just mark the bit with a tape flag at ~1" up from the tip.
How much space between screws? Average 4-6" apart is good enough. On a 12" wide board, 1" in from both ends and 1 screw in the middle are fine.
Should I counter sink the heads? Yes, (~1/4") it's a good idea so that screw heads don't show after painting or covering the box. Can fill the holes with drywall mud and sand flush for a very nice finish.
Follow these guidelines and you'll have a very strong enclosure. Have fun!
Swez
ttocs on 11/7/2004 18:55:46
never needed to drill for brads when using a gun as long as you shoot them straight.
and if you use screws to NOT put them in the very corners as you will end up breaking the corner. Space them 3-4 " from the corner.
swez on 11/7/2004 20:02:45
True as always Mr. T., brads from a nailer gun do not need any pilot holes. They are generally so thin, compared to screws, one would have to have pretty poor aim to split or drive one out the wall.
Hey ttocs, we should a book! GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 11/7/2004 22:29:42
"True as always Mr. T., brads from a nailer gun do not need any pilot holes. They are generally so thin, compared to screws, one would have to have pretty poor aim to split or drive one out the wall."
I have great aim up to 20 ft, but after that it get hard to hit a moving target............ I think most installers are about the same, and as a result are pretty quick(including myself). The long ones only hurt for a few seconds.
P0werLifter on 11/8/2004 01:10:54
CLAP just like playing paint ball hahahaha
swez on 11/8/2004 14:57:42
Ttocs,
You must have been one hell raising kid when you were a little guy and some of it has not left the building to this day!!! lol
Too funny... shooting brad nails at passersby... have any complaints from customers' with flat tires after a day in the install bay?
That cracks me up... good one ttocs! GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 11/8/2004 21:04:17
mom has more then a few good stories............. To this day I am afraid to have kids as she gave me the "I hope you have kids just like you!" talk more then a few times... And then has promised to teach them my tricks..
never had a flat in my bay. The brads lay flat on the ground and we always swept the floors well. It wasn't passerby's, it was the other installers. I didn't think of it on my own, I was shot 1rst... We were always playing jokes/tricks on each other in all the bays I have been in. Never did anything that left perminant marks or scars. About the worst I saw was when one guy made a momma joke to the guy spraying glue to carpet a box. He just casually made a pass straight across the guys legs with the spray gun, of course he was wearing shorts...........
swez on 11/9/2004 22:26:59
Hehe LOL... that's a good one.... then stick him to the wall after 10 minutes.
Hummm, wonder what the boss thinks of such shenanigans in the shop? If he's like you all... probably instagates things too.
Sounds like you need to go to work in full body armor? lol
Swez
PS How are you healing up after that last GI issue?
ttocs on 11/9/2004 22:56:39
The last shop I worked at fulltime in IN was out of control as it was an offsite install bay. The boss was 1.5 miles away and never dropped in. We had free roam... We actuall chased the glue guy around with handfulls of sawdust. It was the install version of tarred and feathered, glued and dusted........... Good memories!
i can't find your address, hit me up with it and I will fill you in on the GI crap........
P0werLifter on 11/10/2004 02:56:23
LoL, I really need to get a job at an install shop GRIN . Im allways playing jokes on people lol. I love that version of tarred and feathered LOL. Kinda did that to myself only with fiberglass and resin on my arms (byebye hair) when i was coating the inside of my enclosure somehow i managed to get resin on the sides and my arm got in it...got all the way up to my elbow...ouch haha. Goodtimes, good times
-Jason
swez on 11/10/2004 10:16:31
swezdp@juno.com
Funny little game there Mista T. Glue and sawdust make a nasty mess and hard to get off the skin too. Acetone or paint thinner will do it. But, acetone dries the skin big time and some paint thinners really smell foul like fuel oil or kerosene.
Anyone need a light? "flick" .... human torch anyone? Poor guy! He must have been the black sheep of the install crew.
Swez
ttocs on 11/10/2004 10:18:31
no, just made the guy with the glue gun mad... All jokes were played with a "what goes around comes around" attitude, we never got mad at each other, just even.
I have a Dodge Dakota ext. cab (mid sized truck) and I don't know if I should make the box bigger or smaller than recomended by the manufacturer because it is a small space compared to a car.
Infinity recomends .60 cu ft.
Should I just use one of those large formulas to get the size of the box instead? And if so, is there a formula for sealed boxes that takes into account the size of the vehicle's space?
USFLAG Thanks, USFLAG
USFLAG alan USFLAG
Replies (18)
P0werLifter on 11/6/2004 15:19:25
alls you need to do really to build a new box...is get the dimensions you have to work with then from there, multiply Height X Width X Depth Divided by 1728. That will give you the cubic Feet of the enclosure.
alanjlamore on 11/6/2004 15:41:39
I mean, should I make the box bigger, or smaller because I have a smaller area inside the truck as opposed to a car or SUV.
Are there formulas that tell what cubic footage you should use for your sub, that also has the size of the vehicle factored into it?
I know how to build the box once I get the cubic feet that I want. I just don't know if I should go with the .6 cu ft or make it bigger or smaller due to the small interior size of a pickup truck.
swez on 11/6/2004 17:05:41
Unfortunately, Infinity does not give us much leeway for enclosure specs. They tend to state a flat number like 0.6ft^3 per sub.
Why? My guess is that they have modeled their subs based on power handling ratings and not overall performance preferences. We all know that a larger enclosure will deliver more deep bass than a small one. But a larger box also provides less air pressure to keep the sub from bottoming out at rated power.
So, instead of beefing up the motor suspension system to make it more robust, (that costs more to do) they spec the box and power limits tighly, to limit warrantee failure returns. Yes, a tech can quickly determine the cause of sub failure and if it was abused or misused. That can signal a "NOPE.... no warrantee exchange here as the sub was abused" response.
OK, that's the why... now, What can you do?
1. Make a dimensional drawing of the space you have available for these subs. If you have the space to use a ported design (1.0 ft^3/sub) Then go that route for more deep bass and a few extra dB of SPL. Port tune the enclosure to say 30-35 Hz. (depending on the type of music you prefer.
2. If that size box is just too large for your space, drop to a sealed enclosure and start with ~0.75ft^3/sub. This is not an overly large box and your subs should be able to handle ~600 RMS for the pair.
3. After the box is fabricated and the subs have been broken in, determine the max limits of power you can feed them before the subs start to sound a bit off. (high distortion, cones seem to go out of control or loose SQ) Then dial back on the power until good SPL/SQ performance is reached. That's your limiting factors.
Personally, I would not cover the box initially until fully tested and subs are well broken in. (10-12 hours of play) If they sound good after that, finish as you wish and enjoy tweaking and tinkering with the electronics aspects of the HU and amp.
However, if you find the sub sound sloppy and cone excursion in a larger box is too great. (coils bottom out... "frapppp" sounds) Then adjust the size of the box by either cutting panels to decrease interior air space or add a few 2x4 boards to bring enclosure back to under .70 cf/sub.
What say you Alan?
Swez
ttocs on 11/6/2004 19:40:22
the only reason the size of the vehicle will effect the size of the enclosure is if there is not enough space. You should biuld the box as close the recommended airspace no matter what size the vehicle is. You generally have two demensions that you cannot play with, and one that you adj to get the right size. For instance if your truck has 20" height, and 60" across, you then adj the depth to get the right airspace.
alanjlamore on 11/6/2004 20:31:52
Okay, thanks. That cleared it up a lot (as usual here ;) )
I should have enough space in all directions now that I've decided to remove one seat in the back and just use the smaller one, and put it in the middle, with the sub boxes on each side and the amps under the seat.
I can't wait to get going, I still need to buy a BP600.1 amp, more wood/glue/nails and a set of kick pannels for the front speakers, then I'll be all set for a while.
The only problem I'm going to run into next is having a space to work on the truck. I just moved upstairs from my parents (with my wife and daughter) to save some money for a year to put a big down payment on a house, and they don't have a garage. I can work out in their yard, but it's getting colder and colder here now (upstate NY).
I'll be able to suck it up though. Thanks for all the advice guys!!!! As promissed long ago, I will give a nice donation when I complete my install (nice for what I can give anyway).
USFLAG HAPPY GRIN HAPPY THANKS AGAIN!!! I'M ALMOST DONE!! HAPPY GRIN HAPPY USFLAG
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
ttocs on 11/6/2004 23:38:44
no nails......... It does not work well on mdf, you will just end up splitting it unless you pre-drill holes. The shops that I worked at always used glue and brads from a gun. Alot of people use wood screws and glue which is a better alternatived(again as long as you pre-drill) but is more time consuming. Where you working from?
swez on 11/7/2004 01:13:16
I have tried both long brads and screws. Either way, always pre-drill the holes and use plenty of glue. The glue is what really holds the wood together. The nails or screws give stabilty to the joints until the glue has cured.
Why pre-drill the holes? To prevent the wood from splitting as we drive in the nails or screws. A 3/4" thick board can seem pretty narrow for a #8 screw. The center point of a 3/4" stock MDF board is 3/8". If you are off by 1/8", the board will split or drive through the inner or outer walls.
What size screw to use? Coarse threaded #6-8 drywall screws, 1-5/8" long are perfect. Plenty of bite and gripping power here.
How large a pilot hole? With brads (1/16") or screws (1/8") bit (respectively) seems to work well in the boxes I have made. Just mark the bit with a tape flag at ~1" up from the tip.
How much space between screws? Average 4-6" apart is good enough. On a 12" wide board, 1" in from both ends and 1 screw in the middle are fine.
Should I counter sink the heads? Yes, (~1/4") it's a good idea so that screw heads don't show after painting or covering the box. Can fill the holes with drywall mud and sand flush for a very nice finish.
Follow these guidelines and you'll have a very strong enclosure. Have fun!
Swez
ttocs on 11/7/2004 18:55:46
never needed to drill for brads when using a gun as long as you shoot them straight.
and if you use screws to NOT put them in the very corners as you will end up breaking the corner. Space them 3-4 " from the corner.
swez on 11/7/2004 20:02:45
True as always Mr. T., brads from a nailer gun do not need any pilot holes. They are generally so thin, compared to screws, one would have to have pretty poor aim to split or drive one out the wall.
Hey ttocs, we should a book! GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 11/7/2004 22:29:42
"True as always Mr. T., brads from a nailer gun do not need any pilot holes. They are generally so thin, compared to screws, one would have to have pretty poor aim to split or drive one out the wall."
I have great aim up to 20 ft, but after that it get hard to hit a moving target............ I think most installers are about the same, and as a result are pretty quick(including myself). The long ones only hurt for a few seconds.
P0werLifter on 11/8/2004 01:10:54
CLAP just like playing paint ball hahahaha
swez on 11/8/2004 14:57:42
Ttocs,
You must have been one hell raising kid when you were a little guy and some of it has not left the building to this day!!! lol
Too funny... shooting brad nails at passersby... have any complaints from customers' with flat tires after a day in the install bay?
That cracks me up... good one ttocs! GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 11/8/2004 21:04:17
mom has more then a few good stories............. To this day I am afraid to have kids as she gave me the "I hope you have kids just like you!" talk more then a few times... And then has promised to teach them my tricks..
never had a flat in my bay. The brads lay flat on the ground and we always swept the floors well. It wasn't passerby's, it was the other installers. I didn't think of it on my own, I was shot 1rst... We were always playing jokes/tricks on each other in all the bays I have been in. Never did anything that left perminant marks or scars. About the worst I saw was when one guy made a momma joke to the guy spraying glue to carpet a box. He just casually made a pass straight across the guys legs with the spray gun, of course he was wearing shorts...........
swez on 11/9/2004 22:26:59
Hehe LOL... that's a good one.... then stick him to the wall after 10 minutes.
Hummm, wonder what the boss thinks of such shenanigans in the shop? If he's like you all... probably instagates things too.
Sounds like you need to go to work in full body armor? lol
Swez
PS How are you healing up after that last GI issue?
ttocs on 11/9/2004 22:56:39
The last shop I worked at fulltime in IN was out of control as it was an offsite install bay. The boss was 1.5 miles away and never dropped in. We had free roam... We actuall chased the glue guy around with handfulls of sawdust. It was the install version of tarred and feathered, glued and dusted........... Good memories!
i can't find your address, hit me up with it and I will fill you in on the GI crap........
P0werLifter on 11/10/2004 02:56:23
LoL, I really need to get a job at an install shop GRIN . Im allways playing jokes on people lol. I love that version of tarred and feathered LOL. Kinda did that to myself only with fiberglass and resin on my arms (byebye hair) when i was coating the inside of my enclosure somehow i managed to get resin on the sides and my arm got in it...got all the way up to my elbow...ouch haha. Goodtimes, good times
-Jason
swez on 11/10/2004 10:16:31
swezdp@juno.com
Funny little game there Mista T. Glue and sawdust make a nasty mess and hard to get off the skin too. Acetone or paint thinner will do it. But, acetone dries the skin big time and some paint thinners really smell foul like fuel oil or kerosene.
Anyone need a light? "flick" .... human torch anyone? Poor guy! He must have been the black sheep of the install crew.
Swez
ttocs on 11/10/2004 10:18:31
no, just made the guy with the glue gun mad... All jokes were played with a "what goes around comes around" attitude, we never got mad at each other, just even.
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