I'm re-wiring a 1966 Bonneville. The new wiring harness comes with everything. The original wiring used a flat ribbon-style 6-conductor thing to take juice back under the carpet for turn signals, brake lights, and fuel gauge sender. The other problem I have is that there is not enough room under the rocker panels to run RCAs. Could I use the ribbon to run signal back to my amps? I think its fine-strand 16 gauge copper. If so, should I run it +-+-+- or +++--- ?
Replies (14)
ttocs on 10/31/2004 20:49:39
I have never had a problem running rca's in a car, even the newer high end imports which are build with VERY tight tolerences. I would not recommend using anyting other then rca's to run signal wires, it is way too easy to get noise into the system especially in an older car. Tell us a little more about what you plan to put in it?
cplkittle on 10/31/2004 20:51:59
ditto... There is a reason RCAs are used instead of standard speaker wire....SHIELDING.
curtis73 on 10/31/2004 21:07:57
I plan on a pretty simple setup; 5.25" components up front, 6x9s in the back deck with about 400w RMS total. I may add a small 8" sub with about another 100w in the future, but not likely. The battery is already in the trunk, so running power wire is not an issue.
Its not so much that this car is built with such tight tolerances, its just that things like the rocker panel covers screw directly to the floor and are actually stamped to the floor's contour. Its not a tight tolerance, its zero tolerance. I would have to run RCAs under the carpet and that is a no-no with the flawless interior this is going to have.
I normally run Monster RCAs; the mint green colored ones, but I read somewhere (I thought it was here, but maybe elsewhere) that since the signal is such a tiny little thing, the quality of the RCA cable doesn't matter. The ribbon to which I refer sits flat in a stamped channel in the floor, hence it keeps the carpet level. Running RCAs would make an annoying bulge that I'm not willing to put up with. Suffice it to say that this is a $25,000 car restification project, so a lump in the custom microfiber sculpted carpet won't make me happy :)
Further thoughts?
ttocs on 10/31/2004 21:53:08
with speakers that size I don't really think you need an amp. Get a good pwrd deck and you should be find until you add a sub. With a restoration like that no reason to add more then you need.
Could you go up and over in the pillars and ceiling?
curtis73 on 10/31/2004 22:22:40
Hmmmm. Ceiling. That thought hadn't even crossed my mind. That's why you have the gold medal and I don't :) It would be running alongside the interior light circuit. Will that add noise from the dimmer in the dash lights?
I agree with not needing an amp, but I really do enjoy the sound much more with the power. I stepped up to 80w x 4 in my Impala and the capabilities are incredible compared to a head unit running a clean 20w.
ttocs on 10/31/2004 22:39:52
shouldn't be a problem with noise, alot of cars run down the side where you normally put the rca's.
Well then by all means one should never aim low. You sound like an audiophile when you put in too much pwr and call it "headroom"......
curtis73 on 10/31/2004 22:58:02
Thanks so much for the help. Along the ceiling it shall be. My problem right now is that I'm a career musician with a killer ear for music and imaging, but I lack the extensive installation and mathematical part of audio like you all have. I know what I want but don't know the best way to get it THINK. I also detest distortion on all levels. I also love my bass but hate taking up trunk space :) Translated, I like to get a satisfactory amount of bass from smaller speakers. I've found a pretty happy balance with high quality 6x9s and running them at or about their RMS. I have also toyed with doing some IB 8" subs in the deck, but the size of the trunk on that bonneville is just soooo huge.
swez on 11/1/2004 10:37:23
If you wanted to use a small, yet respectable sub, wonder if the Infinity Basslink would be to your liking. A 10" woofer coupled with a passive radiator (i/o ports) and packed with a 200 watt (RMS) amp amp remote control if you wish.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XqpWhDFXzZ1/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=51000&I=108BASSLIN&search=infinity+%2Dharman&SearchDisplay=Infinity&wmsf=1
They can be had off the Net for well under $250.00
About ribbon cables, there may be a few out there that are shieded between Pos and Gnd. Would have to do some digging to find a suitable product though. Wonder if "Firewire" for computer peripherials would be well suited to the task? These take AV, audio and data line infor mation and transfer to a computer. I have heard of guys using Cat5 wire for audio too.
Comments?
Swez
curtis73 on 11/1/2004 12:03:48
Mmmmm... Basslink, yummy. I had no idea they could be had that inexpensively. I'll look into it.
On a different tangent; I'm also surprised at the lack of car audio HUs that make use of a digital signal. With the proliferation of Digital FM, XM, Sirius, CD, MP3, and WMV capabilities of most head units, it sure would be nice if the D/A switching took place in the amp. That way the signal would be much easier to get to the amp.
Back to the topic at hand: Is the shielding between the conductors of the RCA more important, or is it the shielding on the jacket more important? I guess what I'm asking: Does the interference come from the field between the two conductors, or is it more from outside sources?
ttocs on 11/1/2004 13:49:26
there are units with the switching at the amp or at least offboard from the HU, pioneer ODR and alpine F1 status come to mind, but you will double the $ of the restoration to secure hardware of this status..........
Noise get intruduced from outside sources. To be honest there are alot of audiophiles that swear the rca's do not matter and there is no diff between radio shack rca's and monster cable. I ran cheapies in my 1rst install when I was 16 and then eventually switched to monster cable about a year later and was amazed at the difference personally, even had friends ask if I had a new amp. One of the high end shops I worked at made their own rca's out of primary wire aircraft twisted with a drill and soldered some nice ends on. We never had any issues with noise....
curtis73 on 11/1/2004 15:36:53
One more question... does adding connections increase noise? For instance, will two 6 ft lengths of RCA joined together with a female/female let more noise in than a single 12-ft section? The reason I ask is that I like clean installations and I thought I might run an RCA to the back and terminate it with female jack plates under the dash and in the trunk. That way I can hook up the amp using a 1 foot RCA and the HU the same way. Sorta hard-wiring the car like you would a home theater where you run the wires behind the drywall. Does the exposed jack allow more noise in?
Right now the car is STRIPPED. No headliner, no carpet, seats, or door panels, so running this RCA in the roof and pillars is a one-time thing. Now that I've found a way to run a real RCA I'm gonna run a really top notch one and put it in a wire loom. Depending on price I might run three (front, rear, sub) and then run some good speaker wire up the other side of the roof in the same way; kinda hard-wire it in. Any suggestions for the top of the line, be-all, end-all kick butt RCA cable?
swez on 11/1/2004 18:55:52
I see no reason not to make splices as needed, as long as the shielded wire is in tact.
The biggest issue as I understand it, is low impedence wire is used. A decent jacket, then an outer foil, coaxial braided ground, and insulated center tap wire. The lower the impedence, the less signal loss over the length of the wires. Large, bulky jackets used in most premium signal cables (Monster, Stinger etc) are great for abrasion resistance. But if we looked at the cross sectional area of the hot conductor and braided ground, just a bit larger than a typical low budget line you get from Radio Shack.
Swez
FYI: Audio cables for live music and studio applications are fed from a geven device (mike) to a junction box off stage, and then fed down long lines (balanced inputs) to the mixing board via a "Snake" cable system In "balanced" systems, very low losses of signal integrity, even at 250 feet. The wires on each device carry discrete signals at very low voltages. (mV and uV ranges) This wire is very small in diameter, semi-pliable and not all that expensive. The key is that these are "balanced" lines. Meaning, two hots and a ground.
Who makes them? Alpha Cable, Belden Corp and probably several more. If you are interested in more details, I can check with my brother as he often makes his own patch cables and signal junctions for patch bays. Maybe he can give a product number and some pricing on same. Ask if you want more details.
curtis73 on 11/2/2004 02:33:22
I'd love to have more details. Especially since I just went down and checked my routing path and realized that there is very little room in the A-pillar.
I want to know what I need so I can minimize space without removing quality. I can give up some abrasion resistance for space savings if I don't have to give up noise rejection.
uochronos on 11/2/2004 02:50:38
you can get more expensive RCA's that are shielded good and smaller in diameter. street wires makes some very spendy though.
i understand not alot of area to run them i just got a 71 mustang and was considering putting in a 4 speaker system ampes with amp in trunk and realized that there are few places to run cables. i usualy use under the molding alon door but in my case this is not possible. so i looked into the pillar and under cieling cover and its possible although very tight. check into this more as you already have but even if its tight it could work.
also under the carpet in some cases this amy require lifting carpet laying the cables and re adhereing the carpet down.. this is time consuming but well work. did it in my 84 thunder bird.
another option would be under the car and back in. this is not a great idea as the wires get wear and get dirty and corroded. howveer if you can run it threw tubing or somethign to protect it this well work.
also look under any moulding you can. also if it has a center console you can look to run under that.
That is all i can think of now.
Chronos
Replies (14)
ttocs on 10/31/2004 20:49:39
I have never had a problem running rca's in a car, even the newer high end imports which are build with VERY tight tolerences. I would not recommend using anyting other then rca's to run signal wires, it is way too easy to get noise into the system especially in an older car. Tell us a little more about what you plan to put in it?
cplkittle on 10/31/2004 20:51:59
ditto... There is a reason RCAs are used instead of standard speaker wire....SHIELDING.
curtis73 on 10/31/2004 21:07:57
I plan on a pretty simple setup; 5.25" components up front, 6x9s in the back deck with about 400w RMS total. I may add a small 8" sub with about another 100w in the future, but not likely. The battery is already in the trunk, so running power wire is not an issue.
Its not so much that this car is built with such tight tolerances, its just that things like the rocker panel covers screw directly to the floor and are actually stamped to the floor's contour. Its not a tight tolerance, its zero tolerance. I would have to run RCAs under the carpet and that is a no-no with the flawless interior this is going to have.
I normally run Monster RCAs; the mint green colored ones, but I read somewhere (I thought it was here, but maybe elsewhere) that since the signal is such a tiny little thing, the quality of the RCA cable doesn't matter. The ribbon to which I refer sits flat in a stamped channel in the floor, hence it keeps the carpet level. Running RCAs would make an annoying bulge that I'm not willing to put up with. Suffice it to say that this is a $25,000 car restification project, so a lump in the custom microfiber sculpted carpet won't make me happy :)
Further thoughts?
ttocs on 10/31/2004 21:53:08
with speakers that size I don't really think you need an amp. Get a good pwrd deck and you should be find until you add a sub. With a restoration like that no reason to add more then you need.
Could you go up and over in the pillars and ceiling?
curtis73 on 10/31/2004 22:22:40
Hmmmm. Ceiling. That thought hadn't even crossed my mind. That's why you have the gold medal and I don't :) It would be running alongside the interior light circuit. Will that add noise from the dimmer in the dash lights?
I agree with not needing an amp, but I really do enjoy the sound much more with the power. I stepped up to 80w x 4 in my Impala and the capabilities are incredible compared to a head unit running a clean 20w.
ttocs on 10/31/2004 22:39:52
shouldn't be a problem with noise, alot of cars run down the side where you normally put the rca's.
Well then by all means one should never aim low. You sound like an audiophile when you put in too much pwr and call it "headroom"......
curtis73 on 10/31/2004 22:58:02
Thanks so much for the help. Along the ceiling it shall be. My problem right now is that I'm a career musician with a killer ear for music and imaging, but I lack the extensive installation and mathematical part of audio like you all have. I know what I want but don't know the best way to get it THINK. I also detest distortion on all levels. I also love my bass but hate taking up trunk space :) Translated, I like to get a satisfactory amount of bass from smaller speakers. I've found a pretty happy balance with high quality 6x9s and running them at or about their RMS. I have also toyed with doing some IB 8" subs in the deck, but the size of the trunk on that bonneville is just soooo huge.
swez on 11/1/2004 10:37:23
If you wanted to use a small, yet respectable sub, wonder if the Infinity Basslink would be to your liking. A 10" woofer coupled with a passive radiator (i/o ports) and packed with a 200 watt (RMS) amp amp remote control if you wish.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XqpWhDFXzZ1/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=51000&I=108BASSLIN&search=infinity+%2Dharman&SearchDisplay=Infinity&wmsf=1
They can be had off the Net for well under $250.00
About ribbon cables, there may be a few out there that are shieded between Pos and Gnd. Would have to do some digging to find a suitable product though. Wonder if "Firewire" for computer peripherials would be well suited to the task? These take AV, audio and data line infor mation and transfer to a computer. I have heard of guys using Cat5 wire for audio too.
Comments?
Swez
curtis73 on 11/1/2004 12:03:48
Mmmmm... Basslink, yummy. I had no idea they could be had that inexpensively. I'll look into it.
On a different tangent; I'm also surprised at the lack of car audio HUs that make use of a digital signal. With the proliferation of Digital FM, XM, Sirius, CD, MP3, and WMV capabilities of most head units, it sure would be nice if the D/A switching took place in the amp. That way the signal would be much easier to get to the amp.
Back to the topic at hand: Is the shielding between the conductors of the RCA more important, or is it the shielding on the jacket more important? I guess what I'm asking: Does the interference come from the field between the two conductors, or is it more from outside sources?
ttocs on 11/1/2004 13:49:26
there are units with the switching at the amp or at least offboard from the HU, pioneer ODR and alpine F1 status come to mind, but you will double the $ of the restoration to secure hardware of this status..........
Noise get intruduced from outside sources. To be honest there are alot of audiophiles that swear the rca's do not matter and there is no diff between radio shack rca's and monster cable. I ran cheapies in my 1rst install when I was 16 and then eventually switched to monster cable about a year later and was amazed at the difference personally, even had friends ask if I had a new amp. One of the high end shops I worked at made their own rca's out of primary wire aircraft twisted with a drill and soldered some nice ends on. We never had any issues with noise....
curtis73 on 11/1/2004 15:36:53
One more question... does adding connections increase noise? For instance, will two 6 ft lengths of RCA joined together with a female/female let more noise in than a single 12-ft section? The reason I ask is that I like clean installations and I thought I might run an RCA to the back and terminate it with female jack plates under the dash and in the trunk. That way I can hook up the amp using a 1 foot RCA and the HU the same way. Sorta hard-wiring the car like you would a home theater where you run the wires behind the drywall. Does the exposed jack allow more noise in?
Right now the car is STRIPPED. No headliner, no carpet, seats, or door panels, so running this RCA in the roof and pillars is a one-time thing. Now that I've found a way to run a real RCA I'm gonna run a really top notch one and put it in a wire loom. Depending on price I might run three (front, rear, sub) and then run some good speaker wire up the other side of the roof in the same way; kinda hard-wire it in. Any suggestions for the top of the line, be-all, end-all kick butt RCA cable?
swez on 11/1/2004 18:55:52
I see no reason not to make splices as needed, as long as the shielded wire is in tact.
The biggest issue as I understand it, is low impedence wire is used. A decent jacket, then an outer foil, coaxial braided ground, and insulated center tap wire. The lower the impedence, the less signal loss over the length of the wires. Large, bulky jackets used in most premium signal cables (Monster, Stinger etc) are great for abrasion resistance. But if we looked at the cross sectional area of the hot conductor and braided ground, just a bit larger than a typical low budget line you get from Radio Shack.
Swez
FYI: Audio cables for live music and studio applications are fed from a geven device (mike) to a junction box off stage, and then fed down long lines (balanced inputs) to the mixing board via a "Snake" cable system In "balanced" systems, very low losses of signal integrity, even at 250 feet. The wires on each device carry discrete signals at very low voltages. (mV and uV ranges) This wire is very small in diameter, semi-pliable and not all that expensive. The key is that these are "balanced" lines. Meaning, two hots and a ground.
Who makes them? Alpha Cable, Belden Corp and probably several more. If you are interested in more details, I can check with my brother as he often makes his own patch cables and signal junctions for patch bays. Maybe he can give a product number and some pricing on same. Ask if you want more details.
curtis73 on 11/2/2004 02:33:22
I'd love to have more details. Especially since I just went down and checked my routing path and realized that there is very little room in the A-pillar.
I want to know what I need so I can minimize space without removing quality. I can give up some abrasion resistance for space savings if I don't have to give up noise rejection.
uochronos on 11/2/2004 02:50:38
you can get more expensive RCA's that are shielded good and smaller in diameter. street wires makes some very spendy though.
i understand not alot of area to run them i just got a 71 mustang and was considering putting in a 4 speaker system ampes with amp in trunk and realized that there are few places to run cables. i usualy use under the molding alon door but in my case this is not possible. so i looked into the pillar and under cieling cover and its possible although very tight. check into this more as you already have but even if its tight it could work.
also under the carpet in some cases this amy require lifting carpet laying the cables and re adhereing the carpet down.. this is time consuming but well work. did it in my 84 thunder bird.
another option would be under the car and back in. this is not a great idea as the wires get wear and get dirty and corroded. howveer if you can run it threw tubing or somethign to protect it this well work.
also look under any moulding you can. also if it has a center console you can look to run under that.
That is all i can think of now.
Chronos
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