I've gotten suggestions to look at Autotek brand amps for my multi-channel amp. I'm looking at the Autotek xs900.4 : puts out 110 W RMS x 4 @ 4 ohms...my components and rear panels (6x9s) both run 100 WRMS - Polk MOMO MMC5250 and Polk MOMO MMC690..
First of all, are Autotek decent amplifiers, especially for multichannel, and would the amplifier that I"m looking at be a good match...or too much power??
Replies (28)
uochronos on 10/17/2004 22:03:43
never used any autotek prodcuts have seen there stuff its pretty low end at least everything i have seen. there are probakly better amps for the money..
have you checked out profile amps at www.thezeb.com they are cheap but look like they have good starting level specs. not high end but above averages they are stright forward and no bs looking. for a wonderfull price. check them out.
asplundher on 10/18/2004 12:20:57
I would go as far as to say, Yes. Yet, remember all manufacturers have a basic (lower) line and upper quality products. I think the thing to do is look at how much you are planning to spend. Next look at all the amps that have the features you want that are within that price range. Then pick the better mix between better quality and value out of the few that you have chosen.
Everyone can agree on some brands and disagree on others. The best choice for you is what suits you better. Afterall you will be the one that has to be satisfied with the end result. If you need help on which ones will be a better option out of those you are looking at, then we will have a better view on your options.
jrine on 10/18/2004 21:53:46
I have checked out other brands of multichannel amplifiers including PG Xenon 100.4, Hifonics Zeus ZX6400, PG Octane-R 8.0.4, ...price range is I don't want to spend above 350. I was just wondering about the Autotek amplifiers b/c on Caraudioforum.com I posted, and had a few suggestions to get Autotek for multichannel amp.
I also have another question...is getting a multichannel even necessary...should I power my fronts and rears or just my fronts? Will it sound better if I power both?? I'm going to be running a sub - an IDMAX 12 V.3 D2 (1000 W RMS), so is it necessary?
uochronos on 10/18/2004 22:51:49
asplundher hit the nail on the head not everyone well tell you the same products and brands. i lean towards one i have knowledge of.as do most other people. best thing to do it get the specs off the amsp your interested in and compare them.
i did check out a couple autotek amps though the other night... i was not too impressed by there prices to spec ratio... although they dont look as bad as the ones i had seen before.. on the zeb they have a autotek 4x75watt rms amp for 200$ on sale and then the profile i mentioned is the same specs but only 99$ on sale. good specs for half the price...honesltly for your 4 speakers you dont need a expensive amp..
also it is not neccisary that you power all 4 it well sound better. many people just power the front 2 with an amp and run rears off deck... but i prefer to power all 4. thing is if you decide later you dont like the sond of just the front 2 amped then you have to buy a whole other amp. and for then 99$ the profile amp is you can afford to amp all 4...
jrine on 10/18/2004 22:59:04
Thanks for the replies, esp. Chronos...I'll have to check out the Profile amps...thanks for the help...
uochronos on 10/18/2004 23:20:03
like i said in my first post they arent going to blow you away but the specs are solid and it well put the power. they are slightly overrated rating them at 14.4 volts which many amp companies do you car operates at around 13volts usualy meaning it well be like 5watts less per channel then stated at normal conditions. but the autotek amps where rated at 14.4 too.
Chronos
PS
Good luck!
jrine on 10/19/2004 00:05:20
chronos...do u have any other suggestions...i mean if i was going to get the PG Octane-R 8.0.4, would that be a good investment;
I havent heard too much about them...not too many people seem to use PG, esp. the newer stuff...I've even heard the Xenon series is not that good for the price...is this on basis of personal opinion or...Hopefully you can somewhat answer my questions. Thanks again.
uochronos on 10/19/2004 01:10:22
well i'm not the person to ask for an objective review of PG. but here is my opinion PG is probaly some of the best amps. ya like all amps there older stuff was real killer and newer stuff isnt all as good. but flat out there tantrum series is amazing. the octane R is a great amp series, and the titanium series has anything you could possibly want in a sturdy amp.. the new xenon series is good as well although a bit pricy. when buying from phoenix gold i can guarentee your product well last a good long while.
My tantrum 500.2 is over 2 years old and it was the demo one off the wall in the place i bought it from. they gave me 100% of and a 5 year warranty for free. well its 2 years old and taken a ton of abuse but it works as good now as the day i got it.
Phoenix Gold build extrmly durable and powerfull amps. i paid 400$ for my 500.2 and i think thats a ton for an amp but i would pay the same for it again if i needed another one.
do you need that necisarily? no any amp well work for your application. but i can vouch that there amps well do a good job and last a long time. when i think very top of the line amps 3 names pop to mind JL, Phoenix Gold, and Alpine. there are alot of other good amps but that is the best of the best in my opinion and experience.
honestly if i just wanted a amp in my daily driver or something i likly would choose profile or one of the other cheaper generic brands.
i guess i i'm going in circles basicaly both ways have there pro and cons and its a choice you well have to decide. go with one of the big boy that costs a good amount and last a long time. or buy a more generic average amp and pay very little and get a good amp that performs well but may not be as durable as the nicer amps or have all the bells and whistles. it alls the little features and gfadgets and the more durable parts that make PG, JL, and Alpine amps expensive in comparison.
i hope i have helped
Chronos
jrine on 10/19/2004 01:33:41
You've helped hella, as have the other repliers...anyways...I'll take the advice and make my own decision. Thanks
swez on 10/20/2004 08:09:10
More 2 cents... have you looked at the Alpine MRV-F450? It is a 5 channel amp. Lots of very usable features and several configurations are possible as well. The sub channel is 200 RMS @ 4 ohms. (not 2 ohm stable) Here are the details:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2wpO92K4Joj/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&I=500MRVF450&search=alpine&wmsf=1
Crutch prices are high, so shopping this one a bit, will get you closer to $300.00
Price search results:
http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/search/search__cat_id--11820000,prod_id--7223040.html
=================================================
Autotek does make some pretty decent gear. Some of the low end products are fair, but the upper end of the product line... solid amps. Like anything else, a little research, comparison shopping and asking questions will tell you what you need to know, to make an informed choice.
http://www.autotek.net/autotek.htm
Swez
PS Have a good look at MA Audio amps while you are at Zeb. Very well priced, solid performers and well know brand. Phoenix Gold makes some great amps too. As do Alpine, Infinity, JBL, Rockfors, SoundSteam, HiFonics, US Acoustics and many more.
jrine on 10/20/2004 20:32:33
Is Autotek's upper end the Stealth series?...Not to downplay your suggestion, Swez, but I don't think I can do a 5 channel...I'm going to be running a IDMAX 12 V.3D2, and at 1000 WRMS, it needs its own amplifier. Thanks for the suggestion though...
Are MA Audio amplifiers decent amps? Its kind of off topic, but I was looking at one of their amps for my sub: the MA HK401SX; is this a decent amp too?
swez on 10/20/2004 22:02:15
Yes, Autotek Stealth series is pretty much the top line products they make. Everything is first rate... high powered Mosfets, HD power rails and surface mount componets for low profile and maximum power transfer.
Only the High End amps are using SMT (Surface Mount Technology). Nice features too. HiFonics used SMT technology as well and maybe Audiobahn.
I can see what you mean about not needing a 5 channel. That sub will need a load of power.
Another thing to consider on your 4 channel amp... how much power do you really need for your interior speakers? Reason I ask... a 1000 watt Class D sub amp will draw ~80A. A potent 4 channel amp will draw many amps too. A 100 x 4 is 400 watts output, but input power to get that kind of power, is almost double that. Almost 800 watts draw or (800 watts/13.5 volts = 60A.) That's a Class A/B amp however. They draw more current than Class D amps of similar power.
That MA amp is a monster sub amp! 1800 watts RMS @ 0.5 ohms, 1200 @ 1 ohm. This is called a HIGH CURRENT amplifier for a good reason. It's going to require a huge amount of watts at 1 or 0.5 ohms. I do not see any amperage draw figures for this amp... that's not a good sign as I am sure it is substantial.
In short, are you prepared to dole out another $500.00 in ALT/BAT upgrades for this kind of SPL machine? The combination of a 400 x 4 and a HC 1200W amp will be a huge power drain on any electrical system. Keep that in mind as you select your amps.
FYI: A 50 watt (RMS) amplifier will deliver X dB of SPL to a given speaker. A 100 watt amp will deliver X+3dB more SPL. A 1000 watt amp will deliver ~10dB more SPL than a 100 watt amp. That's huge amount of SPL, considering the typical 100 watt amp nets a low 120's dB to a typical speaker.
Care to re-think your plans a bit?
Swez
jrine on 10/20/2004 22:41:39
Thanks for the "laying out" of electrical figures and such; I just want my speakers to play at their full potential...
I was just wondering about the MA amplifier...i'm actually leaning toward getting the Hifonics BX1500D and pairing that with either a decent Profile amp(thanks chronos), or the Hifonics ZX6400...
I've thought alot about the electrical system upgrades...I know I'm definitely going to have to do the battery and big 3 wire upgrades...however, I was wondering...if I get the Hifonics, will I have to get a HO Alt or will I have to have install it first and then go from there (if the lights are dimming majorly, etc...)?
swez on 10/22/2004 09:28:21
Most likely you will have to do some major electrical upgrades if you go with the HiFonics 1500D. This amp can draw well over 100A at full power, depending on the load used. Add a potent 4 channel amp and you compound the problem by another 40-60A. So, here... we already have ~150A alloctated to just amplifier power. Your vehicle will need 50-60A of current to operate properly too.
Think it through carefully, as this plan will be a major expense.
Swez
jrine on 10/23/2004 06:03:39
Swez...sorry it has gotten off topic, but thanks so much for the replies..anyways I was wondering: Is there any amplifier that can power my IDMAX without having a large amperage draw?...I think if I'm going to run a 1000 W RMS sub, there's no way in going around upgrading my electrical system right??
I'm going to have to do it, no matter what amp I run for it, correct? If not, could you give suggest to me some amps that dont have large amp draws, which still put out large Wattage
uochronos on 10/23/2004 06:13:45
any 1000watt amp well have large power draw unfortunatly. around 80-90amp draw even with a very efficient amp design. however you could A. run a smaller amp say 500-700watts andonly lose less then 3db of volume. or B. you can get a 1000watt amp and just not turn it way up all the time,
/However if you have a 700watt + amp and use it to its full potential you well; need a new alternator and the works but less then 700watts rms and you can get away with just upgrading the battery in mabny case.
Chronos
jrine on 10/23/2004 12:43:01
Isn't this going to cause distortion though, for my subwoofer, if I only do like say 600 -700 W amplifiers, or will it be okay?...I just don't want to mess my subwoofer up...
Funny, I was thinking this way in the beginning: just underpowering my IDMAX with like 600 Watts; is this going to mess it up or not though?
uochronos on 10/23/2004 16:58:21
it well cause damage if you force the sub to clip. alot of times people well turn the gain up to make it louder this causes clipping and distortion which well kill a sub. however is you have your gain and bass boost set properly there well be no damage to your sub.
Chronos
PS
RMS ratings are a maxiumu continous wattage not a nessicary amount. for smaller subs say 300watts or so we suggest a 300-400watt amp so that you dont turn the gain up and damage it.
but if your looking to save power its more then ok to give it less then the RMS rating as long as you are setting the amp right.
jrine on 10/23/2004 17:34:40
Chronos...what amplifiers would you recommend that I run the IDMAX with...if I dont want to get the HO alt and just do the battery, big 3, and maybe a cap?
Another Question: If i have my amps, sub professionally installed, then everything should be okay, with "underpowering" my subwoofer, correct??
swez on 10/23/2004 20:32:56
"IDMAX was engineered to be extremely strong, yet super light in weight. The low moving mass of the IDMAX requires less suspension stiffness to balance the mass to the compliance for proper cone control at high power levels. Lower moving mass in a speaker results in higher efficiency because more power is being used to create sound rather than overcome weight. Softer high compliance suspensions also result in higher efficiency because less of your precious amplifier power is being used to overcome the stiffness of the suspension. So even with moderate power levels as low as 100 watts the IDMAX subwoofers will produce high output levels and with very high power levels up to 1800 watts they will produce truly explosive and violent levels of clean undistorted sub-bass."
Quote from Audio Perect.com
===================================================
According to Tech notes from ID, a 2.0 ft^3, ported enclosure (32 Hz.)wil give excellent SPL bass and a very nice bump at 30-50 Hz. The specs and build info on this sub can be found here:
http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/website/tech/data_sheet_max12v3d2.html
===================================================
Frankly, this sub is so efficient in a ported box, a smaller amp will still drive this sub to high SPL numbers. From the Leap Plot I see on Ported design, it look like you can anticipate ~104dB @ 1w/1m @ 32 Hz. That's Pro level SPL efficiency.
Here's an SPL plot VS power input you can expect: 20-80 Hz.(average efficiency is 95 dB @1w/1m.)
1 watt input = 95dB
2 watts input = 98dB
4 watts input = 101dB
8 watts input = 104dB
16 watts input = 107dB
32 watts input = 110dB (Danger zone for hearing loss)
64 watts input = 113dB
128 watts input = 116dB
256 watts input = 119dB
512 watts input = 122dB
1024 watts input = 125dB
Now, depending on the vehicle, you can expect some cabin gain effect bass boost (free SPL) of 15 - 25dB added to above numbers. Depends on the vehicle. PU Trucks are small cabin gain vehicles. SUV's are large gain winners. Sedans and Hatchbacks are in between.
"Transfer Function:
All vehicles have an effect on the low frequency response of your audio system. For subwoofers, it means a a 15 to 25dB gain in SPL at some frequencies. This means that in some vehicles the SPL, at the lowest of frequencies, will be as much as 25dB higher than if the speakers were in the middle of a large open area (i.e. in the middle of a football field). In the image below, The red line is the speaker/enclosure without the vehicle's transfer function. The violet line is an estimate of some hypothetical transfer function of an unnamed vehicle (just a rough guess actually :-). The yellow line is the output of the speaker with the influence of the transfer function. As you can see, the response of the system inside the vehicle is much higher at the lower frequencies. "
http://www.bcae1.com/spboxad1.htm
===================================================
OK, now you have some quantitative details to help you in selecting a useful sub amp. Stick with Class D or Class T MONO amps (NOT CLASS A/B OR HC AMPS) that are 1 ohm stable. Anything in the 500-800 watt Class will give you plenty of bass SPL and minimize current draw.
There's not a large difference in SPL advantage between a 500 watt amp and 1000 watts right? But the current draw between the two is 100% more current at 1000 watts, compared to 500 watts and only a 3dB loss in SPL. So, if you have to manage power and not starve the vehicle for power, use a smaller amp and still have well above average SPL in a ported enclosure. No major electrical upgrades is you know what ALT output is, upgrade the 3 wires mentioned and add a high CCA rated BAT.
Do you know the stock ALT rating and CCA # on the BAT for this vehicle? (Dealership or autoparts store will have that detail for you)
===================================================
Are you with me so far? Think it through carefully and DO YOUR HOMEWORK WELL! (We'll help you along the way)
Swez
PS A 500-600 watt RMS Class D/T MONO amp will draw under 60A at full power. Then add your 4 channel amp power consumption as well.
The vehicle needs 50-60A to operate all main functions properly.
jrine on 10/24/2004 00:34:15
Swez:
Before I get into doing my "homework" and getting back to you, I had one more quick question:
I want my sub to "bump" but I am also a big SQ guy, so should I run the sub in a sealed enclosure??...and if i do, will it still be cool running it with a 500-800 watt amplifier?
I know that I need to be the one to look the amplifiers up, but I was wondering: off the top of your head, could you give me some suggestions of amplifiers to look at...even just brands of decent amplifiers in the 500-800 W range. Thanks for all the help and I'll get back to you about the amps and alternator/cca # on battery...
uochronos on 10/24/2004 01:03:38
yes even in a sealed enclosure that power well be sufficient.
as for amps Phoenixgold, jl, alpine, hiofoniox, profile, etc all make good amps in your power range
we always suggest foir price and power the JBL power valve series they can be hard to find but they are not that ahrd to find. the JBL BP 600.1 is a solid well built powerfull amp. no frills but for the money a great amp.
Cheronos
swez on 10/24/2004 11:38:42
Ditto! I'm with Chronos on his selections.
The sealed performance specs on that sub look pretty good too. Just a smaller box and less peaky at 40 Hz., (+/- 10Hz.) I too like the SQL performance of a well designed sealed setup. Tight response, less peaks in bass frequency range and subs tend to have better cone control in higher SPL range.
This sub is a 2+2 DVC. So, you will need an amp that is stable at 1 ohm to power it. They're out there, but some digging (research) will be required. Especially with Class D/T efficiencies.
1. JBL BP-600.1 is a sure bet for sealed applications
http://www.cardomain.com/item/JBLBP6001Z (refurb)
2. JBL Power BPX500.1
http://www.cardomain.com/item/JBLBPX5001
3. HiFonics Brutus BX500D
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFBX500D
4. Power Acoustik A1800DB (run this at 4 ohm load)
http://www.cardomain.com/item/POWA1800DB (~ 50A at full power into a 4 ohm load)
5. Crossfire VR-600d
http://www.crossfirecaraudio.com/frameset.asp
6. Orion 600D
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/amps/Dmono.asp
OK, these are some I found that might work out for you. The Best values I can see are the Power Acoustik and JBL amps. A little research and pricing will tell the rest of the story.
Good luck!
Swez
jrine on 10/25/2004 01:01:20
Swez, I have a question about the Power Acoustik A1800DB: does amperage draw differ when an amplifier is wired at different ohmages?? I'm really liking this one...and its not that expensive...
If I was going to wire that Power Acoustik at 1 ohm, would it make the power draw a lot more: something around 100-110??
swez on 10/25/2004 10:53:29
Yes, with a large amp like the A1800DB, the lower the ohmic load, the more power the amp will be able to produce. If the ohmic load is higher (like 4 ohms), the amp rated power is lower and will draw less current as a result. That's why I suggested it and using a 4 ohm load, will reduce power output and demand for power (input) to acheive desired results.
The other real value in the list is the JBL BO-600.1. It is +600 watts RMS, draws ~55A at max power too. You can still find new models off E-bay or buy a factory refurb at very low cost. I have a JBL refurb and it has worked perfectly for >4 years. Save several hundred dollar off Retail cost, buying a refurb.
Swez
PS If you wish, call/e-mail PA and confirm the maximum current draw on this amp at 1 & 4 ohm loads. Then you can be sure of your next step.
jrine on 10/26/2004 23:09:51
Swez, I found out the alternator rating...I'm not sure of the CCA on the battery, but I'll give u the specs on that too:
i have a 95 A alternator and teh battery: a 12 V, 68-amp hour, if this helps at all....
Anyways, I figure at least that gives me ~45 A to play with after stock electricals;
if i get the Power Acoustik (~50 A @ 4 ohms, like u said) and anotheer 4 channel amp( another ~45-60A??), which will total around probably 110 amps plus my 50 stock A, will I be okay just upgrading my battery and the major 3?...or will i have to get another alternator or a HO Alt? Thanks for all your help so far...
uochronos on 10/27/2004 02:53:49
defiantly cant squeeze 150+amps of poower out of a 95amp alternator. i would think that at moderate volume you would be pulling 90amps at high volume the car would die and you would be stranded.
Chronos
jrine on 10/27/2004 21:36:12
ok...chronos...thanks for the suggestion...anyways..u r saying that I need to get a HO alt then?...
First of all, are Autotek decent amplifiers, especially for multichannel, and would the amplifier that I"m looking at be a good match...or too much power??
Replies (28)
uochronos on 10/17/2004 22:03:43
never used any autotek prodcuts have seen there stuff its pretty low end at least everything i have seen. there are probakly better amps for the money..
have you checked out profile amps at www.thezeb.com they are cheap but look like they have good starting level specs. not high end but above averages they are stright forward and no bs looking. for a wonderfull price. check them out.
asplundher on 10/18/2004 12:20:57
I would go as far as to say, Yes. Yet, remember all manufacturers have a basic (lower) line and upper quality products. I think the thing to do is look at how much you are planning to spend. Next look at all the amps that have the features you want that are within that price range. Then pick the better mix between better quality and value out of the few that you have chosen.
Everyone can agree on some brands and disagree on others. The best choice for you is what suits you better. Afterall you will be the one that has to be satisfied with the end result. If you need help on which ones will be a better option out of those you are looking at, then we will have a better view on your options.
jrine on 10/18/2004 21:53:46
I have checked out other brands of multichannel amplifiers including PG Xenon 100.4, Hifonics Zeus ZX6400, PG Octane-R 8.0.4, ...price range is I don't want to spend above 350. I was just wondering about the Autotek amplifiers b/c on Caraudioforum.com I posted, and had a few suggestions to get Autotek for multichannel amp.
I also have another question...is getting a multichannel even necessary...should I power my fronts and rears or just my fronts? Will it sound better if I power both?? I'm going to be running a sub - an IDMAX 12 V.3 D2 (1000 W RMS), so is it necessary?
uochronos on 10/18/2004 22:51:49
asplundher hit the nail on the head not everyone well tell you the same products and brands. i lean towards one i have knowledge of.as do most other people. best thing to do it get the specs off the amsp your interested in and compare them.
i did check out a couple autotek amps though the other night... i was not too impressed by there prices to spec ratio... although they dont look as bad as the ones i had seen before.. on the zeb they have a autotek 4x75watt rms amp for 200$ on sale and then the profile i mentioned is the same specs but only 99$ on sale. good specs for half the price...honesltly for your 4 speakers you dont need a expensive amp..
also it is not neccisary that you power all 4 it well sound better. many people just power the front 2 with an amp and run rears off deck... but i prefer to power all 4. thing is if you decide later you dont like the sond of just the front 2 amped then you have to buy a whole other amp. and for then 99$ the profile amp is you can afford to amp all 4...
jrine on 10/18/2004 22:59:04
Thanks for the replies, esp. Chronos...I'll have to check out the Profile amps...thanks for the help...
uochronos on 10/18/2004 23:20:03
like i said in my first post they arent going to blow you away but the specs are solid and it well put the power. they are slightly overrated rating them at 14.4 volts which many amp companies do you car operates at around 13volts usualy meaning it well be like 5watts less per channel then stated at normal conditions. but the autotek amps where rated at 14.4 too.
Chronos
PS
Good luck!
jrine on 10/19/2004 00:05:20
chronos...do u have any other suggestions...i mean if i was going to get the PG Octane-R 8.0.4, would that be a good investment;
I havent heard too much about them...not too many people seem to use PG, esp. the newer stuff...I've even heard the Xenon series is not that good for the price...is this on basis of personal opinion or...Hopefully you can somewhat answer my questions. Thanks again.
uochronos on 10/19/2004 01:10:22
well i'm not the person to ask for an objective review of PG. but here is my opinion PG is probaly some of the best amps. ya like all amps there older stuff was real killer and newer stuff isnt all as good. but flat out there tantrum series is amazing. the octane R is a great amp series, and the titanium series has anything you could possibly want in a sturdy amp.. the new xenon series is good as well although a bit pricy. when buying from phoenix gold i can guarentee your product well last a good long while.
My tantrum 500.2 is over 2 years old and it was the demo one off the wall in the place i bought it from. they gave me 100% of and a 5 year warranty for free. well its 2 years old and taken a ton of abuse but it works as good now as the day i got it.
Phoenix Gold build extrmly durable and powerfull amps. i paid 400$ for my 500.2 and i think thats a ton for an amp but i would pay the same for it again if i needed another one.
do you need that necisarily? no any amp well work for your application. but i can vouch that there amps well do a good job and last a long time. when i think very top of the line amps 3 names pop to mind JL, Phoenix Gold, and Alpine. there are alot of other good amps but that is the best of the best in my opinion and experience.
honestly if i just wanted a amp in my daily driver or something i likly would choose profile or one of the other cheaper generic brands.
i guess i i'm going in circles basicaly both ways have there pro and cons and its a choice you well have to decide. go with one of the big boy that costs a good amount and last a long time. or buy a more generic average amp and pay very little and get a good amp that performs well but may not be as durable as the nicer amps or have all the bells and whistles. it alls the little features and gfadgets and the more durable parts that make PG, JL, and Alpine amps expensive in comparison.
i hope i have helped
Chronos
jrine on 10/19/2004 01:33:41
You've helped hella, as have the other repliers...anyways...I'll take the advice and make my own decision. Thanks
swez on 10/20/2004 08:09:10
More 2 cents... have you looked at the Alpine MRV-F450? It is a 5 channel amp. Lots of very usable features and several configurations are possible as well. The sub channel is 200 RMS @ 4 ohms. (not 2 ohm stable) Here are the details:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2wpO92K4Joj/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&I=500MRVF450&search=alpine&wmsf=1
Crutch prices are high, so shopping this one a bit, will get you closer to $300.00
Price search results:
http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/search/search__cat_id--11820000,prod_id--7223040.html
=================================================
Autotek does make some pretty decent gear. Some of the low end products are fair, but the upper end of the product line... solid amps. Like anything else, a little research, comparison shopping and asking questions will tell you what you need to know, to make an informed choice.
http://www.autotek.net/autotek.htm
Swez
PS Have a good look at MA Audio amps while you are at Zeb. Very well priced, solid performers and well know brand. Phoenix Gold makes some great amps too. As do Alpine, Infinity, JBL, Rockfors, SoundSteam, HiFonics, US Acoustics and many more.
jrine on 10/20/2004 20:32:33
Is Autotek's upper end the Stealth series?...Not to downplay your suggestion, Swez, but I don't think I can do a 5 channel...I'm going to be running a IDMAX 12 V.3D2, and at 1000 WRMS, it needs its own amplifier. Thanks for the suggestion though...
Are MA Audio amplifiers decent amps? Its kind of off topic, but I was looking at one of their amps for my sub: the MA HK401SX; is this a decent amp too?
swez on 10/20/2004 22:02:15
Yes, Autotek Stealth series is pretty much the top line products they make. Everything is first rate... high powered Mosfets, HD power rails and surface mount componets for low profile and maximum power transfer.
Only the High End amps are using SMT (Surface Mount Technology). Nice features too. HiFonics used SMT technology as well and maybe Audiobahn.
I can see what you mean about not needing a 5 channel. That sub will need a load of power.
Another thing to consider on your 4 channel amp... how much power do you really need for your interior speakers? Reason I ask... a 1000 watt Class D sub amp will draw ~80A. A potent 4 channel amp will draw many amps too. A 100 x 4 is 400 watts output, but input power to get that kind of power, is almost double that. Almost 800 watts draw or (800 watts/13.5 volts = 60A.) That's a Class A/B amp however. They draw more current than Class D amps of similar power.
That MA amp is a monster sub amp! 1800 watts RMS @ 0.5 ohms, 1200 @ 1 ohm. This is called a HIGH CURRENT amplifier for a good reason. It's going to require a huge amount of watts at 1 or 0.5 ohms. I do not see any amperage draw figures for this amp... that's not a good sign as I am sure it is substantial.
In short, are you prepared to dole out another $500.00 in ALT/BAT upgrades for this kind of SPL machine? The combination of a 400 x 4 and a HC 1200W amp will be a huge power drain on any electrical system. Keep that in mind as you select your amps.
FYI: A 50 watt (RMS) amplifier will deliver X dB of SPL to a given speaker. A 100 watt amp will deliver X+3dB more SPL. A 1000 watt amp will deliver ~10dB more SPL than a 100 watt amp. That's huge amount of SPL, considering the typical 100 watt amp nets a low 120's dB to a typical speaker.
Care to re-think your plans a bit?
Swez
jrine on 10/20/2004 22:41:39
Thanks for the "laying out" of electrical figures and such; I just want my speakers to play at their full potential...
I was just wondering about the MA amplifier...i'm actually leaning toward getting the Hifonics BX1500D and pairing that with either a decent Profile amp(thanks chronos), or the Hifonics ZX6400...
I've thought alot about the electrical system upgrades...I know I'm definitely going to have to do the battery and big 3 wire upgrades...however, I was wondering...if I get the Hifonics, will I have to get a HO Alt or will I have to have install it first and then go from there (if the lights are dimming majorly, etc...)?
swez on 10/22/2004 09:28:21
Most likely you will have to do some major electrical upgrades if you go with the HiFonics 1500D. This amp can draw well over 100A at full power, depending on the load used. Add a potent 4 channel amp and you compound the problem by another 40-60A. So, here... we already have ~150A alloctated to just amplifier power. Your vehicle will need 50-60A of current to operate properly too.
Think it through carefully, as this plan will be a major expense.
Swez
jrine on 10/23/2004 06:03:39
Swez...sorry it has gotten off topic, but thanks so much for the replies..anyways I was wondering: Is there any amplifier that can power my IDMAX without having a large amperage draw?...I think if I'm going to run a 1000 W RMS sub, there's no way in going around upgrading my electrical system right??
I'm going to have to do it, no matter what amp I run for it, correct? If not, could you give suggest to me some amps that dont have large amp draws, which still put out large Wattage
uochronos on 10/23/2004 06:13:45
any 1000watt amp well have large power draw unfortunatly. around 80-90amp draw even with a very efficient amp design. however you could A. run a smaller amp say 500-700watts andonly lose less then 3db of volume. or B. you can get a 1000watt amp and just not turn it way up all the time,
/However if you have a 700watt + amp and use it to its full potential you well; need a new alternator and the works but less then 700watts rms and you can get away with just upgrading the battery in mabny case.
Chronos
jrine on 10/23/2004 12:43:01
Isn't this going to cause distortion though, for my subwoofer, if I only do like say 600 -700 W amplifiers, or will it be okay?...I just don't want to mess my subwoofer up...
Funny, I was thinking this way in the beginning: just underpowering my IDMAX with like 600 Watts; is this going to mess it up or not though?
uochronos on 10/23/2004 16:58:21
it well cause damage if you force the sub to clip. alot of times people well turn the gain up to make it louder this causes clipping and distortion which well kill a sub. however is you have your gain and bass boost set properly there well be no damage to your sub.
Chronos
PS
RMS ratings are a maxiumu continous wattage not a nessicary amount. for smaller subs say 300watts or so we suggest a 300-400watt amp so that you dont turn the gain up and damage it.
but if your looking to save power its more then ok to give it less then the RMS rating as long as you are setting the amp right.
jrine on 10/23/2004 17:34:40
Chronos...what amplifiers would you recommend that I run the IDMAX with...if I dont want to get the HO alt and just do the battery, big 3, and maybe a cap?
Another Question: If i have my amps, sub professionally installed, then everything should be okay, with "underpowering" my subwoofer, correct??
swez on 10/23/2004 20:32:56
"IDMAX was engineered to be extremely strong, yet super light in weight. The low moving mass of the IDMAX requires less suspension stiffness to balance the mass to the compliance for proper cone control at high power levels. Lower moving mass in a speaker results in higher efficiency because more power is being used to create sound rather than overcome weight. Softer high compliance suspensions also result in higher efficiency because less of your precious amplifier power is being used to overcome the stiffness of the suspension. So even with moderate power levels as low as 100 watts the IDMAX subwoofers will produce high output levels and with very high power levels up to 1800 watts they will produce truly explosive and violent levels of clean undistorted sub-bass."
Quote from Audio Perect.com
===================================================
According to Tech notes from ID, a 2.0 ft^3, ported enclosure (32 Hz.)wil give excellent SPL bass and a very nice bump at 30-50 Hz. The specs and build info on this sub can be found here:
http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/website/tech/data_sheet_max12v3d2.html
===================================================
Frankly, this sub is so efficient in a ported box, a smaller amp will still drive this sub to high SPL numbers. From the Leap Plot I see on Ported design, it look like you can anticipate ~104dB @ 1w/1m @ 32 Hz. That's Pro level SPL efficiency.
Here's an SPL plot VS power input you can expect: 20-80 Hz.(average efficiency is 95 dB @1w/1m.)
1 watt input = 95dB
2 watts input = 98dB
4 watts input = 101dB
8 watts input = 104dB
16 watts input = 107dB
32 watts input = 110dB (Danger zone for hearing loss)
64 watts input = 113dB
128 watts input = 116dB
256 watts input = 119dB
512 watts input = 122dB
1024 watts input = 125dB
Now, depending on the vehicle, you can expect some cabin gain effect bass boost (free SPL) of 15 - 25dB added to above numbers. Depends on the vehicle. PU Trucks are small cabin gain vehicles. SUV's are large gain winners. Sedans and Hatchbacks are in between.
"Transfer Function:
All vehicles have an effect on the low frequency response of your audio system. For subwoofers, it means a a 15 to 25dB gain in SPL at some frequencies. This means that in some vehicles the SPL, at the lowest of frequencies, will be as much as 25dB higher than if the speakers were in the middle of a large open area (i.e. in the middle of a football field). In the image below, The red line is the speaker/enclosure without the vehicle's transfer function. The violet line is an estimate of some hypothetical transfer function of an unnamed vehicle (just a rough guess actually :-). The yellow line is the output of the speaker with the influence of the transfer function. As you can see, the response of the system inside the vehicle is much higher at the lower frequencies. "
http://www.bcae1.com/spboxad1.htm
===================================================
OK, now you have some quantitative details to help you in selecting a useful sub amp. Stick with Class D or Class T MONO amps (NOT CLASS A/B OR HC AMPS) that are 1 ohm stable. Anything in the 500-800 watt Class will give you plenty of bass SPL and minimize current draw.
There's not a large difference in SPL advantage between a 500 watt amp and 1000 watts right? But the current draw between the two is 100% more current at 1000 watts, compared to 500 watts and only a 3dB loss in SPL. So, if you have to manage power and not starve the vehicle for power, use a smaller amp and still have well above average SPL in a ported enclosure. No major electrical upgrades is you know what ALT output is, upgrade the 3 wires mentioned and add a high CCA rated BAT.
Do you know the stock ALT rating and CCA # on the BAT for this vehicle? (Dealership or autoparts store will have that detail for you)
===================================================
Are you with me so far? Think it through carefully and DO YOUR HOMEWORK WELL! (We'll help you along the way)
Swez
PS A 500-600 watt RMS Class D/T MONO amp will draw under 60A at full power. Then add your 4 channel amp power consumption as well.
The vehicle needs 50-60A to operate all main functions properly.
jrine on 10/24/2004 00:34:15
Swez:
Before I get into doing my "homework" and getting back to you, I had one more quick question:
I want my sub to "bump" but I am also a big SQ guy, so should I run the sub in a sealed enclosure??...and if i do, will it still be cool running it with a 500-800 watt amplifier?
I know that I need to be the one to look the amplifiers up, but I was wondering: off the top of your head, could you give me some suggestions of amplifiers to look at...even just brands of decent amplifiers in the 500-800 W range. Thanks for all the help and I'll get back to you about the amps and alternator/cca # on battery...
uochronos on 10/24/2004 01:03:38
yes even in a sealed enclosure that power well be sufficient.
as for amps Phoenixgold, jl, alpine, hiofoniox, profile, etc all make good amps in your power range
we always suggest foir price and power the JBL power valve series they can be hard to find but they are not that ahrd to find. the JBL BP 600.1 is a solid well built powerfull amp. no frills but for the money a great amp.
Cheronos
swez on 10/24/2004 11:38:42
Ditto! I'm with Chronos on his selections.
The sealed performance specs on that sub look pretty good too. Just a smaller box and less peaky at 40 Hz., (+/- 10Hz.) I too like the SQL performance of a well designed sealed setup. Tight response, less peaks in bass frequency range and subs tend to have better cone control in higher SPL range.
This sub is a 2+2 DVC. So, you will need an amp that is stable at 1 ohm to power it. They're out there, but some digging (research) will be required. Especially with Class D/T efficiencies.
1. JBL BP-600.1 is a sure bet for sealed applications
http://www.cardomain.com/item/JBLBP6001Z (refurb)
2. JBL Power BPX500.1
http://www.cardomain.com/item/JBLBPX5001
3. HiFonics Brutus BX500D
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFBX500D
4. Power Acoustik A1800DB (run this at 4 ohm load)
http://www.cardomain.com/item/POWA1800DB (~ 50A at full power into a 4 ohm load)
5. Crossfire VR-600d
http://www.crossfirecaraudio.com/frameset.asp
6. Orion 600D
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/amps/Dmono.asp
OK, these are some I found that might work out for you. The Best values I can see are the Power Acoustik and JBL amps. A little research and pricing will tell the rest of the story.
Good luck!
Swez
jrine on 10/25/2004 01:01:20
Swez, I have a question about the Power Acoustik A1800DB: does amperage draw differ when an amplifier is wired at different ohmages?? I'm really liking this one...and its not that expensive...
If I was going to wire that Power Acoustik at 1 ohm, would it make the power draw a lot more: something around 100-110??
swez on 10/25/2004 10:53:29
Yes, with a large amp like the A1800DB, the lower the ohmic load, the more power the amp will be able to produce. If the ohmic load is higher (like 4 ohms), the amp rated power is lower and will draw less current as a result. That's why I suggested it and using a 4 ohm load, will reduce power output and demand for power (input) to acheive desired results.
The other real value in the list is the JBL BO-600.1. It is +600 watts RMS, draws ~55A at max power too. You can still find new models off E-bay or buy a factory refurb at very low cost. I have a JBL refurb and it has worked perfectly for >4 years. Save several hundred dollar off Retail cost, buying a refurb.
Swez
PS If you wish, call/e-mail PA and confirm the maximum current draw on this amp at 1 & 4 ohm loads. Then you can be sure of your next step.
jrine on 10/26/2004 23:09:51
Swez, I found out the alternator rating...I'm not sure of the CCA on the battery, but I'll give u the specs on that too:
i have a 95 A alternator and teh battery: a 12 V, 68-amp hour, if this helps at all....
Anyways, I figure at least that gives me ~45 A to play with after stock electricals;
if i get the Power Acoustik (~50 A @ 4 ohms, like u said) and anotheer 4 channel amp( another ~45-60A??), which will total around probably 110 amps plus my 50 stock A, will I be okay just upgrading my battery and the major 3?...or will i have to get another alternator or a HO Alt? Thanks for all your help so far...
uochronos on 10/27/2004 02:53:49
defiantly cant squeeze 150+amps of poower out of a 95amp alternator. i would think that at moderate volume you would be pulling 90amps at high volume the car would die and you would be stranded.
Chronos
jrine on 10/27/2004 21:36:12
ok...chronos...thanks for the suggestion...anyways..u r saying that I need to get a HO alt then?...
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