HEY friends.. i just installed a new system in my car.. check it out..
Head unit:- blaupunkt BREMEN-MP74
Amps:- blaupunkt Gta-450 x 2 ( both bridged into 2 ch mode)
Monobloc Amp:- sony Xm-D-1000p5
Rear components:- blaupunkt VXC-200 x 2(pairs) parallel wiring
Front components:- blaupunkt VX 170.1 + VX 130.1
Woofers:- blaupunkt VXB-12.1 x 2
i have of course upgraded the alternator.. got one more battery and a 2.5 farad stiffened capacitor..
DETAILS OF ALL PARTS.
BREMEN MP74:- Mp3/CD audio receiver + radio, 4 x 26 w rms, digital self adjusting equiliser( with microphone sensor), 4 ch x 27 bands digital equilizer, 5v x 2 pre-amp out, sub out ( gold plated), centre out, 4096 colour display, telephone navigation speech output, dual zone audio... and lots more.
GTA-450:-class AB, 2 ohms stable, 4x50 w rms, 2-ch bridged mode 2x160w rms, freq response: 10 - 30,000Hz, S/N ratio 90dB/A. 0/9/18 dB switchable bass boost.
XM-D-1000P5:- monobloc digital amp, 500w rms x 1 (at 4 ohms), 900w rms x 1 (at 2 ohms with .2% thd), Variable 50-300 Hz 12dB / Octave Low-Pass Filter,Switchable 40Hz - 10 dB Bass Boost, Gold-Plated Terminals, freq response 20-300Hz.Nice new pentagon design.
VXC-200:-200mm dia, 80 w rms, freq response: 35-22,000Hz, 4 ohms, spun alluminium cone with rubber surround, diecast chrome voice coil, gold plated binding posts, extended pole design, alluminium tweeters have 25mm voice coil dia, made of kapton and neodynium magnets.
VX-170.1:-165 mm dia, 50w rms, freq response: 40-25,000Hz, 4 ohms, cone material anodised polypropelyne, rubber surround, voice coil material -diecast chrome, push -pull terminals, extended pole design.alluminium tweeters 19mm dia kapton voice coil, neodynium magnet.
VX-130.1:-130 mm dia, 40w rms, freq response: 50-25,000Hz, 4 ohms, cone material anodised polypropelyne, rubber surround, voice coil material -diecast chrome, push -pull terminals, extended pole design.alluminium tweeters 19mm dia kapton voice coil, neodynium magnet.
VXB-12.1:-4'th order bandpass subwoofer, 400w rms, freq response: 40-135Hz, dual voice coil(4 ohms), cone material spun alluminium copper coated, santoprene surround, 50mm alluminium voice coil dia.
PLEASE COMMENT ON MY SELECTION.. I FIND IT PRETTY NICE.. GOOD QUALITY MUSIC.. AS WELL AS SATISFYING MY SPL NEEDS.. GOES UPTO 155dB..
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DO U ALL THINK ABOUT IT..??
Replies (25)
uochronos on 10/17/2004 21:28:50
looks nice. hwo does the bluapunkt stuff stand up to other brands? price, quality, sound, etc?
how do you know what the subs are hitting? i just ask because 155db seems like alot for such a modestly powered system... mosty people hitting 150db+ are running slightly biger systems then you. if these woofers are hitting that loud then i'am very impressed by bluapunkt.
Chronos
P0werLifter on 10/17/2004 21:54:34
I have never heard any blaupunkt products nor have i heard much about them. But i have heard of them so that says something about them GRIN . Hows it all sound?
I agree...have you had your system tested on a dB meter? if so what type of meter (brand) ? 155dB is impressive for a modest system as Chronos has stated above. What are the specs as far as the subwoofer goes? Xmax? BL? I looked for the subwoofers on Blaupunkt's website but i couldnt find em hehe.
If infact you are hitting those types of numbers on the meter, then i give you props, thats an impressive number
-PL
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:06:53
well.. its all about parallel and series wiring..
the amps give 2 x 160 w rms in 2 ch- bridged mode..
the rear comps are wired in parallel( remember 2 pairs of 8" speakers)..giving a load of 2 ohms per channel.. the amp is 2 ohms stable,, this extracts power around 300w rms from each channel..(this is called RAPING THE AMP .. hehehehe).. the same is done with the front configurration.. { i wud like to bring one thig to everybodies notice.. lots of people try series and parallel wiring for subs.. start doing it for speakes and you will have the real fun},.. regarding the subs.. they have 4 ohms dual voice coils.. i wired one woofer's voice coils in parallel giving a load of 2 ohms and the others in series giving a load of 8 ohms.. i wired both the woofers to the amp in parallel giving the total load of around 1.6 ohms( i know the amp is 2 ohms stable but as i said.. i like exploiting power...hehehe.. i am too nasty).. the amp gives around 1000w rms to the woofers...
regarding blaupunkt stuff.. well i feel its all about german engineering..
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:15:15
and u know the best part.. remember i had aske u guys to comment about blaupunkt.. those guys were here to finalise the dealership.. i wanted to test out the stuff before i cud finalise the thing.. so they installed a complete new system in my car and only after testing it on the meter and listening to extreme detailed indian classical music did i finalise the deal.. and the best part is yet to come.. the whole system wud cost around 5500$( that is like 2,25000 rs indian currrency) in the retail market and i have to pay only 3700$( thats 1,85000 rs) for it... the whole thing was installed by me.. and even the company representative were impressed by the wiring scheme..
uochronos on 10/17/2004 22:25:11
if you are pumping 300watts rmws into 50watt rms components and theen 300watts into 2 * woofers rated at 180watts rms together... it is a miricle that stuff wont wear out in a week man. 50watt rms speakers are not meant to be pushed at 300watts by giveing this speaker more then 50watts you cant get more xmax the speaker cant go past its physical limits.
you seem to know all these "tricks" to wiring but everything you wired is wired more complicated then needs be. and not gaining much,
for instance going from 900watts rms to 1000watts rms by dropping the ohmage that well burn out the amp faster putting mroe strain on it. and you only gain like .5db thats half a decibal inaudible at those volumes.
also by straining all this equipment your getting less SQ and minimaly more SPL and costing the equipment damage in the long run...
i too agree that its all in how its wired when using mulitple speakers but wiring it to get more distortion and puting strain on the amp isnt much of a solution...
also you lose fading and balance properties and any time corection your deck has
your loosing much more here in added distortion, equipment life, loss of controls, etc,
just a bit confused on some of this logic. i have spent over 2 yeaqrs learining all the math and logic behind how it works i dont know everything by anymeans but i seem to think your into a bad track here.
Chronos
comments?questions?
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:32:35
you may be right regarding straining the audio gear.. but i cud'nt understand how i wud loose the fading and the time control options.. since i am running two seperate amps for the front and the rear speakers..?? ..nad hey.. they woofers are rated at 400w rms per woofer.. making it 800w rms..and the rear speakers are 80w rms making it 160w rms per channel.. the front are 50 and 40 making it 90w rms per channel?...
uochronos on 10/17/2004 22:37:27
your bridgeing the amp whiche is brdging the rigtha dn left chaannel if your right and left are bridged how can you fade?
and giveing a 160watt rear 300watts is ok perhaps
but giveing a 90watt rms from 300watts rms is going to eventualy blow it. and thats only 3 db more then 150wattsrms..
simpley wired the way you have it i cant figure out the +'s here. i wich to understand...
also can you give me some links to the bluapunkt gear i cant find the amp or the sub on th4ere site but its confusing anyway. thanks
Chronos
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:44:35
well... the GTA 450 has an option( a switch) of running the amp on 4 channel or 2 channel mode.. at 4 ch it gives 4x50rms and in 2 ch mode 2x160rms. now.. the rear rca output from the HU goes to one of the GTA and the front to the other GTA.. this makes them seperate amps for the front and the rear channel.. ( am i right??????).so how do i loose the fader control????.. also.. regarding the rear speaker wiring.. there are in all 2 pairs ie. 4 speaker..right??.. two 8" speaker for the real left and the rear right channel.. now with each of the rear channel the 2 speaker are wired parallel giving a single load of 2 ohms.. the other rear channels and the front channels are wired in similar fashion.. now do u think somethings fishy?.. comments??
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:52:53
well.. Chronos..... if u are still confused about the wiring.. gimme ur mail add.. i shall draw a wiring diagram and mail it to u..
uochronos on 10/17/2004 23:12:16
i understand exactly how your doing it... no i get it still the way you wrire subs like 2 dvc subs and what not is way more compliocated... and i still stand by a 90watt rms speaker is going to not run right one a 300watt rms of power. thats onyl 6 db louder and pushing the speaker way past its limits.
just seems a bit rushed. i do get the amps now though i have nebver used a 4 channel amp that had a switch on it to make it back into a 2 channel amp...
Chronos
uochronos on 10/17/2004 23:23:54
could you please list a link to the specs of the blaupunkt woofers, components and amp. i cant find the right section on there homepage. a link would be wonderfull. i just want to check them out,
Chronos
Victor on 10/17/2004 23:33:23
i agree with you regarding the fron power config .. of giving 300rms to 90rms speakers.. but regarding wiring subs and voice coils.. i shall stand by my statements.. cause i feel calculating a proper load to which the amp can optimally perform is very important.. and it is of-course complicated thats why not a lot of people do it or even dare to experiment..the whole concept of the DVC technology is flexibility in installation and better power handling..why not exploit the golden opportunity when its so easily available.. lemme explain u something more about dvc( please bear with me.. i am not trying to be over smart,, i am just sharing some info i feel u have been unaware or rather un-wanting to experiment with.. ).. the 2 voice coils in any sub are always of the same load.. now when they are wired in series the load doubles it self and when in parallel it cuts down to half of it.
.for example lets take a 4ohms DVC.. it has 2 coils of 4ohms..
now if the are wired in series then the woofer would have a total load of 8ohms and if in parallel then the total load would be 2ohms..
after wiring the coils the woofer then has a single impedence either of 8ohms or 2ohms( according to the wiring) it then acts as a single load and not like a dual load.
now if another woofer of the same kind is wired similarly ( ie. either 8ohms-series or 2ohms-parallel) then we would have
1) two 8ohm loads.
condition one:- series wired woofers. if both the 8ohm loads are wired in series then we have a total of 16ohms load.
condition two:-parallel wired woofers. if both the 8ohm loads are wired in parallel then we have a total of 4 ohms load.
2) two 2 ohm loads.
condition one:- series wired woofers. if both the 2 ohm loads are wired in series then we have a total of 4 ohms load.
condition two:-parallel wired woofers. if both the 2 ohm loads are wired in parallel then we have a total of 1 ohm load.
3) one 8ohm and one 2 ohm load.
condition one:- series wired woofers. if the 8ohm and the 2 ohm loads are wired in series then we have a total of 10 ohm load.
condition two:- parallel wired woofers. if the 8ohm and the 2 ohm loads are wired in paralle then in total we have a 1.6 ohm load..
hence when we have 2 x 4ohm DVC then we have a flexibility of installing them for a 16ohm,, 10ohm,, 4 ohm ,, 1.6 ohm and 1 ohm confdigurations to match and exploit the amp to its fullest..
dear i have tried my best to explain it.. hope u can solve the complexity and confusion in ur mind..
comments??
Victor
Victor on 10/17/2004 23:47:54
the same thing applies to the 2ohmDVC..3ohm DVC..6ohmDVC and the 8ohmDVC which are available in the market.. such a load can be calculated for unending number of woofers.. and for different type of config and wiring options..
Victor..
Victor on 10/18/2004 00:02:51
2 x 2ohmDVC can be wired for 8ohm,5ohm,2ohm,0.8ohm, and 0.5ohm.
loads.
2 x 3ohmDVC can be wired for 12ohm,7.5ohm,3ohm,1.2 ohm & 0.75ohm
loads
2 x 6ohmDVC can be wired for 24ohm,15ohm,6ohm,2.4ohm & 1.5ohm loads
2 x 8ohmDVC can be wired for 32ohm,20ohm,8ohm,3.2ohm & 2ohm loads
see theres is such a lot of flexibility provided and people do not use it..
comments??
Victor
Victor on 10/18/2004 00:51:10
one big problem with blaupunkt is that they do not offer complete specs on the site.. and the other is that the models they introduce are different for different countries.. like the models introduced in india are completely different in model no# as well as specs.. anyways.. i shall send u some links.. www.velocity.de .. this is the newest product range targetted at SQ level audiophiles.. check it out.. some really serious stuff. download the pdf in english... there is another site of some blaupunkt wholeseller in USA.. it is http://www.my-blaupunkt.com/ .. hope these links can give u enough info.. i shall let u know if i can find some more... the worldwide blaupunkt site is www.blaupunkt.com
Ryan on 10/18/2004 01:45:14
We all know about the difference between series and parallel wiring, its not a qustion of whether or not you can do that its a question of why would you put such a strain on your equipment when its not designed to do that. I also highly doubt you are hitting 155db and I can't wait for your equipment to crap out on you so you have to learn a lesson the hard expensive way.
Ryan
PS sorry for being blunt but I read a post here where Victor was giving advice to another person to do somthing similar to what he has done here and I don't think that is a good idea.
Victor on 10/18/2004 04:42:33
Its ok ryan... no need to be sorry.. this place is all about individual views. Thats what makes this place unique.. and by the way.. i advised him what i felt was good.. its completely upto him to sort out the advice that he likes.. I can never force anything on anyone for that matter.. I dont say i am a Audio Guru... but yes i sure do know a bit more ( please dont mis-understand me i aint boasting) especially about woofer enclosures and wiring.. And regarding hitting the 155dB mark i dont need to prove it.. i very well know the capacities of my audio system.. hehehe and if u like to see my system crap out on me then u gotta wait for atleast a 3 more years before anything happens to the equipment.. And yes If the equipment was not designed to do what i have made it do, then why wud all the manufacturers give such specs and make such advanced equipments..
THE ONLY PROBLEM I FEEL IS PEOPLE ARE NOT READY TO ACCEPT NEW THINGS WHICH PERFORM BETTER AND THE WORST PART IS THEY ARE NOT READY TO EXPERIMENT..
anyways i am very happy with my system and i shall always stand by my statements cause i very well know what i have done...
I dunno .. but i fell there wud be atleast some one ( atleast in the gold members who wud agree with me). And by the way friends.. please this is all a part of healthy discussion.. i am always open to new ideas and ready to spend time and money to experiment on something new..
dont get me wrong.. i really respect all ur views and welcome and ask for more comments on this..
Victor....
Relax_The_Mind on 10/18/2004 06:21:15
Nice blaupunkt setup. I like to see that you have good knowledge of wiring amps and speakers.
The people on here are here to help. Especially the "gurus" with the dangling yellow and blue medallions. We either have actual degrees, training, many years of experience or all of the above. You asked us what we think about it. We gave you an answer.
note 1: You cant "extract" more power from an amp than it produces. Wiring an amp/speaker to 2 ohms just drops it down to a more efficient impedance match, drop below that you can "over drive" the transistors. You can spec all you want about power, but as an eet major i know the limitations of amplification circuits.
note 2: There are actually a lot of people who do bridge left and right channels. The difference is that in most situations you lose the left and right fading which is actually quite important.
note 3: Anyone who ever wants any type of Sound Quality from an audio system knows that you dont ever bridge the left and right channels. That will give you a mono out put in sound unless you listen to music from prior to 1961(year stereo came out) you wouldnt notice.
note 4: People are doubting your Db rating as competiton cars with 6 12s and about 5000w of true power hit around that range ~160Db. You on the other hand have 400wrms speakers that would probably only take ~800w for a split second without buring out. Given you were tested with the old mic or the right in front of the port it would seem reasonable. Serious audio enthusiasts dont really give Db ratings anymore unless they give the type of mic used and where the mic was placed. I believe it... its not so far fetched.
note 5: As for trying new things. I am not about to tell people on this forum to do something that may most likely end up damaging their gear.
Ok all I could think of now. Those are my comments.
vicflo (my names Victor too!!) heh
swez on 10/18/2004 07:49:13
Very interesting topic here folks. Innovation is part inspiration and part perspiration. Victor seems to have enough moxy to try less conventional methods. I can respect that! This is how we all learn... trial and error.
I don't question your interior speaker/amp configurations so much as they seem to workwell enough for you. Great! The part that puzzles me, is the woofer wiring plan.
Yes, I see how you arrived at a 1.6 ohm net load. But electrically speaking, in a parallel circuit, the lowest ohmic value sub (resistance) will get the most power. (4+4 ohm DVC in parallel) The 2 ohm sub gets ~75% of the amp power, while the (4+4 = 8 ohm DVC) is getting 25% of that. That one perplexes me a bit???
Yes, I can see the net load resistance will bring the amp to full capacity and a bit more. (what... 900+ watts of so?) Ohms Law is what tells us that. So the 2 ohm sub gets 3/4th's (675 watts) of the amp power and the 8 ohm sub get 1/4th (225 watts) remaining which = 3/4 + 1/4 = 4/4 = 1 OR... 675 + 225 = 900 watts in all. That tells us one sub (2 ohm load) is about 4dB louder than the (8 ohm) sub. Will it work? Yes it will... but the 2 ohm sub is really straining while the 8 ohm sub is loafing along.
Failure mode analysis:
1. I see the 2 ohm sub failing first as it is getting ~ 60% more power than rated when you really push the subs hard
2. I can also see the sub amp crapping out at some point as it is running at a load below minimum ratings of 2.0 ohms
Yes, if you use the power wisely, this may all be fine for some time. But most guys like to pound the crap out of their systems until something fails. Then they go... "D'oh... wad happund here" ? Seems like you are a bit more intelligent than some... but a bit less conventional too. That's cool with me! SMILE
Finally, the 155 dB thing.... is that subs only or the entire system output readings? In a very well designed BP enclosure... do-able in subs. Cabin gain effect can make a huge difference in free SPL. A BP enclosure is very efficient. A single sub with an efficiency rating of say 92dB @1w/1m, will net 98-100 dB @ 1 watt. Add another 15-20dB of cabin gain effect and we could indeed get 115-120dB @ 1w. Amazing huh? So, in theory, 155dB of SPL at 900 watts RMS is possible.
In short, take it or leave it... If Victor likes what he has done and is well satisfied with the outcome... who am I to judge. A good stirring debate is always worth the time. Just make sure we keep things friendly and not get personal about the matter. Live and let live is the motto here.
Swez
Relax_The_Mind on 10/18/2004 11:01:54
It is possible to lengthen the life of an overdriven amplifier if you have a godo amount of cooling. Some as simple as a cheap computer fan blowing over it or through an enclosure (or well designed amp rack. As long as there isnt sitting air where the heatsinks are and insinde the amp casing. Most of the overdriven amps like in your case that I have seen (more extreme cases) you could cook an egg on the top for just being on for like 25-30 minutes.
vicflo
PS. I dont remember the link but there was an 8" kicker that hit 141Db in a multi chamber box. dont remember what order it was but its was like 4cuf and took up the entire back of a truck cab.
very efficient but huge...i mean huge space wasting boxes. If you ever seen how big bass scoops that are at clubs and concert halls you know what im talking about. Thats why they are commonly incorporated into walls and floors as part of the structure of the building.
Victor on 10/18/2004 14:13:07
there you go.. a much more sensible explanation of what shud be done and what not.. this place is really amazing.. well i would also like to bring to your notice.. one more thing.. i have 2 per channel ie. 4 speakers in the rear.. let me bring to your notice one more thing...
the specs of those speakers..
80w rms
freq response:- 35-22,000.
impedence 4 ohms.
Theil small parameteres
fs :- 45Hz
Qts :- 0.5
Qes :- 0.6
Qms :- 2.2
Vas :- 29
Xmax :- +/- 2,5
voice coil diameter 35.5 mm
all you guys out there please calculate the volume of sealed enclosure needed to put all the four speakers in the same enclosure..
please do this bit of effort for me.. before you read ahead.
i shall remind you that these speakers are installed as " free air" into the boot of the car.. the volume of the boot is 145 litres.
Its very much like what Victor( relax _the _mind ) said.. the boot is converted into a huge spaced box like the ones in concerts and clubs..
and regarding cooling the amps.. i forgot to tell you that i have used a quite unconventional cooling system.. the amps are integrated in a rack. The rack is made of sandwitched layers of wood, fibre insulator and a water cooling system.. the cooling system comprises for wound tube of 2mm inner diameter .. through which water is pumped into continous circulation by a 12Vdc motor. and there is a separate water storage of 650ml .. this water keeps on circulating.. i have also used 2 exhaust fans in the push and pull config for the intake and outlet or air.
Regarding the 75% - 25% usage of power by woofers.. i had never thought of it.. i agree with swez.. but dont worry i shall find out some innovative idea to that.. its just a matter of time..
comments????
thanks to all..
please keep this going.. i feel i shall get to learn lots from all of you..
Thanks again
Victor....
Relax_The_Mind on 10/19/2004 07:08:40
Comment:
Water cooling doesnt work well (or at all) unless the heat is radiated from the liquid. 2mm may or may not be sufficient to even be feasible to use, as the flow resistance of the diameter alone would make it inefficient. Much like the radiator in your car. if there was no radiator and a huge fan the water would just boil over and end up causing more harm than good. (didnt see it noted in your post).
Idea:
An ideal way to cool an amp is to mount an aluminum or copper pipe joint directly onto the heatsinks of the main amplification transistors (they are usually about 1x.5"-1x1" and are physically attached or touching the casing) and have water/coolant mix being pumped through out that way. much like the way the bazooka liquid cooled amp system works. This would allow you to overdrive the amp quite a bit more as energy given off in heat is what makes transistors so inefficient.
Suggestion:
To make your air cooling more effective is to always get fresh air to your air cooled system so that heat that is generated will not just be sitting there (recirculated in the same area) generating more heat which isnt such a big deal in a hatchback/wagon with the windows opened. Better yet is ducting your ac to blow through a rack to preferably outside the car somehow.
Heh i may have to direct this to someone else as the conversions from US standard to metric is already messing me up on this post.
vicflo
PS. Nice to see you keep up with your posts. i wrote the 75%-25% on your other post.
Victor on 10/19/2004 08:22:35
ok.. how about first trying to change the cooling medium rather than the whole system.. what if i used water+coolant mixture instead of plain water.. wud it make a good difference.. will it be enough??nad yes.. i told u i have installed the fans diagonally one facing inside and the other outside so that there is continuous intake of new air and outlet of the hot air..
well the A/C duct option is a very good one i wud want to try it.. any guesses how much i wud have to spend on it??... and for the time being will the present cooling system with the coolant mixture help??..
comments please..
Victor...
uochronos on 10/19/2004 11:55:20
the problem is the way i understand it is that you 1 have the water tubs going threw the wood maybe a few milimeters from the amp itself to be truly helpfull this water should be pass almost directly over the casing of the amps specificaly near the transitors RTM mentioned..
also as he mentiond without a way to get the heat out of the water your just heating the watter more then cooling the amp. infact after the water heats up your probaly almost heating the amp more then cooling it. if you really want to do it you would need something similar to a raditor that the water could travel threw and have anough cool air passing threw it so that the water cools before going back to the amp.
i dont personaly think adding coolant to it well help alot without some way of cooling the liquid after it has gone over the amps heat sink. it wont matter what liquid is in it till that can happen.
a good design that i plan to use and in fact am in the process of building is an amp rack where the amps is completly inclosed i'm going tio have plexi glass windows above them so i can see them. but then on either end it has a fan one side is pushing air in while the other end is pushing it out. so there is always new cool air in the chamber and its exhuasting hot air one way while sucking cold air in the other direction.
Chronos
admin on 10/19/2004 22:29:19
Ok cool IDEA guys. Amp builders jump on this and build one into the amp at design time .. lol
Walt USFLAG
Head unit:- blaupunkt BREMEN-MP74
Amps:- blaupunkt Gta-450 x 2 ( both bridged into 2 ch mode)
Monobloc Amp:- sony Xm-D-1000p5
Rear components:- blaupunkt VXC-200 x 2(pairs) parallel wiring
Front components:- blaupunkt VX 170.1 + VX 130.1
Woofers:- blaupunkt VXB-12.1 x 2
i have of course upgraded the alternator.. got one more battery and a 2.5 farad stiffened capacitor..
DETAILS OF ALL PARTS.
BREMEN MP74:- Mp3/CD audio receiver + radio, 4 x 26 w rms, digital self adjusting equiliser( with microphone sensor), 4 ch x 27 bands digital equilizer, 5v x 2 pre-amp out, sub out ( gold plated), centre out, 4096 colour display, telephone navigation speech output, dual zone audio... and lots more.
GTA-450:-class AB, 2 ohms stable, 4x50 w rms, 2-ch bridged mode 2x160w rms, freq response: 10 - 30,000Hz, S/N ratio 90dB/A. 0/9/18 dB switchable bass boost.
XM-D-1000P5:- monobloc digital amp, 500w rms x 1 (at 4 ohms), 900w rms x 1 (at 2 ohms with .2% thd), Variable 50-300 Hz 12dB / Octave Low-Pass Filter,Switchable 40Hz - 10 dB Bass Boost, Gold-Plated Terminals, freq response 20-300Hz.Nice new pentagon design.
VXC-200:-200mm dia, 80 w rms, freq response: 35-22,000Hz, 4 ohms, spun alluminium cone with rubber surround, diecast chrome voice coil, gold plated binding posts, extended pole design, alluminium tweeters have 25mm voice coil dia, made of kapton and neodynium magnets.
VX-170.1:-165 mm dia, 50w rms, freq response: 40-25,000Hz, 4 ohms, cone material anodised polypropelyne, rubber surround, voice coil material -diecast chrome, push -pull terminals, extended pole design.alluminium tweeters 19mm dia kapton voice coil, neodynium magnet.
VX-130.1:-130 mm dia, 40w rms, freq response: 50-25,000Hz, 4 ohms, cone material anodised polypropelyne, rubber surround, voice coil material -diecast chrome, push -pull terminals, extended pole design.alluminium tweeters 19mm dia kapton voice coil, neodynium magnet.
VXB-12.1:-4'th order bandpass subwoofer, 400w rms, freq response: 40-135Hz, dual voice coil(4 ohms), cone material spun alluminium copper coated, santoprene surround, 50mm alluminium voice coil dia.
PLEASE COMMENT ON MY SELECTION.. I FIND IT PRETTY NICE.. GOOD QUALITY MUSIC.. AS WELL AS SATISFYING MY SPL NEEDS.. GOES UPTO 155dB..
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DO U ALL THINK ABOUT IT..??
Replies (25)
uochronos on 10/17/2004 21:28:50
looks nice. hwo does the bluapunkt stuff stand up to other brands? price, quality, sound, etc?
how do you know what the subs are hitting? i just ask because 155db seems like alot for such a modestly powered system... mosty people hitting 150db+ are running slightly biger systems then you. if these woofers are hitting that loud then i'am very impressed by bluapunkt.
Chronos
P0werLifter on 10/17/2004 21:54:34
I have never heard any blaupunkt products nor have i heard much about them. But i have heard of them so that says something about them GRIN . Hows it all sound?
I agree...have you had your system tested on a dB meter? if so what type of meter (brand) ? 155dB is impressive for a modest system as Chronos has stated above. What are the specs as far as the subwoofer goes? Xmax? BL? I looked for the subwoofers on Blaupunkt's website but i couldnt find em hehe.
If infact you are hitting those types of numbers on the meter, then i give you props, thats an impressive number
-PL
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:06:53
well.. its all about parallel and series wiring..
the amps give 2 x 160 w rms in 2 ch- bridged mode..
the rear comps are wired in parallel( remember 2 pairs of 8" speakers)..giving a load of 2 ohms per channel.. the amp is 2 ohms stable,, this extracts power around 300w rms from each channel..(this is called RAPING THE AMP .. hehehehe).. the same is done with the front configurration.. { i wud like to bring one thig to everybodies notice.. lots of people try series and parallel wiring for subs.. start doing it for speakes and you will have the real fun},.. regarding the subs.. they have 4 ohms dual voice coils.. i wired one woofer's voice coils in parallel giving a load of 2 ohms and the others in series giving a load of 8 ohms.. i wired both the woofers to the amp in parallel giving the total load of around 1.6 ohms( i know the amp is 2 ohms stable but as i said.. i like exploiting power...hehehe.. i am too nasty).. the amp gives around 1000w rms to the woofers...
regarding blaupunkt stuff.. well i feel its all about german engineering..
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:15:15
and u know the best part.. remember i had aske u guys to comment about blaupunkt.. those guys were here to finalise the dealership.. i wanted to test out the stuff before i cud finalise the thing.. so they installed a complete new system in my car and only after testing it on the meter and listening to extreme detailed indian classical music did i finalise the deal.. and the best part is yet to come.. the whole system wud cost around 5500$( that is like 2,25000 rs indian currrency) in the retail market and i have to pay only 3700$( thats 1,85000 rs) for it... the whole thing was installed by me.. and even the company representative were impressed by the wiring scheme..
uochronos on 10/17/2004 22:25:11
if you are pumping 300watts rmws into 50watt rms components and theen 300watts into 2 * woofers rated at 180watts rms together... it is a miricle that stuff wont wear out in a week man. 50watt rms speakers are not meant to be pushed at 300watts by giveing this speaker more then 50watts you cant get more xmax the speaker cant go past its physical limits.
you seem to know all these "tricks" to wiring but everything you wired is wired more complicated then needs be. and not gaining much,
for instance going from 900watts rms to 1000watts rms by dropping the ohmage that well burn out the amp faster putting mroe strain on it. and you only gain like .5db thats half a decibal inaudible at those volumes.
also by straining all this equipment your getting less SQ and minimaly more SPL and costing the equipment damage in the long run...
i too agree that its all in how its wired when using mulitple speakers but wiring it to get more distortion and puting strain on the amp isnt much of a solution...
also you lose fading and balance properties and any time corection your deck has
your loosing much more here in added distortion, equipment life, loss of controls, etc,
just a bit confused on some of this logic. i have spent over 2 yeaqrs learining all the math and logic behind how it works i dont know everything by anymeans but i seem to think your into a bad track here.
Chronos
comments?questions?
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:32:35
you may be right regarding straining the audio gear.. but i cud'nt understand how i wud loose the fading and the time control options.. since i am running two seperate amps for the front and the rear speakers..?? ..nad hey.. they woofers are rated at 400w rms per woofer.. making it 800w rms..and the rear speakers are 80w rms making it 160w rms per channel.. the front are 50 and 40 making it 90w rms per channel?...
uochronos on 10/17/2004 22:37:27
your bridgeing the amp whiche is brdging the rigtha dn left chaannel if your right and left are bridged how can you fade?
and giveing a 160watt rear 300watts is ok perhaps
but giveing a 90watt rms from 300watts rms is going to eventualy blow it. and thats only 3 db more then 150wattsrms..
simpley wired the way you have it i cant figure out the +'s here. i wich to understand...
also can you give me some links to the bluapunkt gear i cant find the amp or the sub on th4ere site but its confusing anyway. thanks
Chronos
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:44:35
well... the GTA 450 has an option( a switch) of running the amp on 4 channel or 2 channel mode.. at 4 ch it gives 4x50rms and in 2 ch mode 2x160rms. now.. the rear rca output from the HU goes to one of the GTA and the front to the other GTA.. this makes them seperate amps for the front and the rear channel.. ( am i right??????).so how do i loose the fader control????.. also.. regarding the rear speaker wiring.. there are in all 2 pairs ie. 4 speaker..right??.. two 8" speaker for the real left and the rear right channel.. now with each of the rear channel the 2 speaker are wired parallel giving a single load of 2 ohms.. the other rear channels and the front channels are wired in similar fashion.. now do u think somethings fishy?.. comments??
Victor on 10/17/2004 22:52:53
well.. Chronos..... if u are still confused about the wiring.. gimme ur mail add.. i shall draw a wiring diagram and mail it to u..
uochronos on 10/17/2004 23:12:16
i understand exactly how your doing it... no i get it still the way you wrire subs like 2 dvc subs and what not is way more compliocated... and i still stand by a 90watt rms speaker is going to not run right one a 300watt rms of power. thats onyl 6 db louder and pushing the speaker way past its limits.
just seems a bit rushed. i do get the amps now though i have nebver used a 4 channel amp that had a switch on it to make it back into a 2 channel amp...
Chronos
uochronos on 10/17/2004 23:23:54
could you please list a link to the specs of the blaupunkt woofers, components and amp. i cant find the right section on there homepage. a link would be wonderfull. i just want to check them out,
Chronos
Victor on 10/17/2004 23:33:23
i agree with you regarding the fron power config .. of giving 300rms to 90rms speakers.. but regarding wiring subs and voice coils.. i shall stand by my statements.. cause i feel calculating a proper load to which the amp can optimally perform is very important.. and it is of-course complicated thats why not a lot of people do it or even dare to experiment..the whole concept of the DVC technology is flexibility in installation and better power handling..why not exploit the golden opportunity when its so easily available.. lemme explain u something more about dvc( please bear with me.. i am not trying to be over smart,, i am just sharing some info i feel u have been unaware or rather un-wanting to experiment with.. ).. the 2 voice coils in any sub are always of the same load.. now when they are wired in series the load doubles it self and when in parallel it cuts down to half of it.
.for example lets take a 4ohms DVC.. it has 2 coils of 4ohms..
now if the are wired in series then the woofer would have a total load of 8ohms and if in parallel then the total load would be 2ohms..
after wiring the coils the woofer then has a single impedence either of 8ohms or 2ohms( according to the wiring) it then acts as a single load and not like a dual load.
now if another woofer of the same kind is wired similarly ( ie. either 8ohms-series or 2ohms-parallel) then we would have
1) two 8ohm loads.
condition one:- series wired woofers. if both the 8ohm loads are wired in series then we have a total of 16ohms load.
condition two:-parallel wired woofers. if both the 8ohm loads are wired in parallel then we have a total of 4 ohms load.
2) two 2 ohm loads.
condition one:- series wired woofers. if both the 2 ohm loads are wired in series then we have a total of 4 ohms load.
condition two:-parallel wired woofers. if both the 2 ohm loads are wired in parallel then we have a total of 1 ohm load.
3) one 8ohm and one 2 ohm load.
condition one:- series wired woofers. if the 8ohm and the 2 ohm loads are wired in series then we have a total of 10 ohm load.
condition two:- parallel wired woofers. if the 8ohm and the 2 ohm loads are wired in paralle then in total we have a 1.6 ohm load..
hence when we have 2 x 4ohm DVC then we have a flexibility of installing them for a 16ohm,, 10ohm,, 4 ohm ,, 1.6 ohm and 1 ohm confdigurations to match and exploit the amp to its fullest..
dear i have tried my best to explain it.. hope u can solve the complexity and confusion in ur mind..
comments??
Victor
Victor on 10/17/2004 23:47:54
the same thing applies to the 2ohmDVC..3ohm DVC..6ohmDVC and the 8ohmDVC which are available in the market.. such a load can be calculated for unending number of woofers.. and for different type of config and wiring options..
Victor..
Victor on 10/18/2004 00:02:51
2 x 2ohmDVC can be wired for 8ohm,5ohm,2ohm,0.8ohm, and 0.5ohm.
loads.
2 x 3ohmDVC can be wired for 12ohm,7.5ohm,3ohm,1.2 ohm & 0.75ohm
loads
2 x 6ohmDVC can be wired for 24ohm,15ohm,6ohm,2.4ohm & 1.5ohm loads
2 x 8ohmDVC can be wired for 32ohm,20ohm,8ohm,3.2ohm & 2ohm loads
see theres is such a lot of flexibility provided and people do not use it..
comments??
Victor
Victor on 10/18/2004 00:51:10
one big problem with blaupunkt is that they do not offer complete specs on the site.. and the other is that the models they introduce are different for different countries.. like the models introduced in india are completely different in model no# as well as specs.. anyways.. i shall send u some links.. www.velocity.de .. this is the newest product range targetted at SQ level audiophiles.. check it out.. some really serious stuff. download the pdf in english... there is another site of some blaupunkt wholeseller in USA.. it is http://www.my-blaupunkt.com/ .. hope these links can give u enough info.. i shall let u know if i can find some more... the worldwide blaupunkt site is www.blaupunkt.com
Ryan on 10/18/2004 01:45:14
We all know about the difference between series and parallel wiring, its not a qustion of whether or not you can do that its a question of why would you put such a strain on your equipment when its not designed to do that. I also highly doubt you are hitting 155db and I can't wait for your equipment to crap out on you so you have to learn a lesson the hard expensive way.
Ryan
PS sorry for being blunt but I read a post here where Victor was giving advice to another person to do somthing similar to what he has done here and I don't think that is a good idea.
Victor on 10/18/2004 04:42:33
Its ok ryan... no need to be sorry.. this place is all about individual views. Thats what makes this place unique.. and by the way.. i advised him what i felt was good.. its completely upto him to sort out the advice that he likes.. I can never force anything on anyone for that matter.. I dont say i am a Audio Guru... but yes i sure do know a bit more ( please dont mis-understand me i aint boasting) especially about woofer enclosures and wiring.. And regarding hitting the 155dB mark i dont need to prove it.. i very well know the capacities of my audio system.. hehehe and if u like to see my system crap out on me then u gotta wait for atleast a 3 more years before anything happens to the equipment.. And yes If the equipment was not designed to do what i have made it do, then why wud all the manufacturers give such specs and make such advanced equipments..
THE ONLY PROBLEM I FEEL IS PEOPLE ARE NOT READY TO ACCEPT NEW THINGS WHICH PERFORM BETTER AND THE WORST PART IS THEY ARE NOT READY TO EXPERIMENT..
anyways i am very happy with my system and i shall always stand by my statements cause i very well know what i have done...
I dunno .. but i fell there wud be atleast some one ( atleast in the gold members who wud agree with me). And by the way friends.. please this is all a part of healthy discussion.. i am always open to new ideas and ready to spend time and money to experiment on something new..
dont get me wrong.. i really respect all ur views and welcome and ask for more comments on this..
Victor....
Relax_The_Mind on 10/18/2004 06:21:15
Nice blaupunkt setup. I like to see that you have good knowledge of wiring amps and speakers.
The people on here are here to help. Especially the "gurus" with the dangling yellow and blue medallions. We either have actual degrees, training, many years of experience or all of the above. You asked us what we think about it. We gave you an answer.
note 1: You cant "extract" more power from an amp than it produces. Wiring an amp/speaker to 2 ohms just drops it down to a more efficient impedance match, drop below that you can "over drive" the transistors. You can spec all you want about power, but as an eet major i know the limitations of amplification circuits.
note 2: There are actually a lot of people who do bridge left and right channels. The difference is that in most situations you lose the left and right fading which is actually quite important.
note 3: Anyone who ever wants any type of Sound Quality from an audio system knows that you dont ever bridge the left and right channels. That will give you a mono out put in sound unless you listen to music from prior to 1961(year stereo came out) you wouldnt notice.
note 4: People are doubting your Db rating as competiton cars with 6 12s and about 5000w of true power hit around that range ~160Db. You on the other hand have 400wrms speakers that would probably only take ~800w for a split second without buring out. Given you were tested with the old mic or the right in front of the port it would seem reasonable. Serious audio enthusiasts dont really give Db ratings anymore unless they give the type of mic used and where the mic was placed. I believe it... its not so far fetched.
note 5: As for trying new things. I am not about to tell people on this forum to do something that may most likely end up damaging their gear.
Ok all I could think of now. Those are my comments.
vicflo (my names Victor too!!) heh
swez on 10/18/2004 07:49:13
Very interesting topic here folks. Innovation is part inspiration and part perspiration. Victor seems to have enough moxy to try less conventional methods. I can respect that! This is how we all learn... trial and error.
I don't question your interior speaker/amp configurations so much as they seem to workwell enough for you. Great! The part that puzzles me, is the woofer wiring plan.
Yes, I see how you arrived at a 1.6 ohm net load. But electrically speaking, in a parallel circuit, the lowest ohmic value sub (resistance) will get the most power. (4+4 ohm DVC in parallel) The 2 ohm sub gets ~75% of the amp power, while the (4+4 = 8 ohm DVC) is getting 25% of that. That one perplexes me a bit???
Yes, I can see the net load resistance will bring the amp to full capacity and a bit more. (what... 900+ watts of so?) Ohms Law is what tells us that. So the 2 ohm sub gets 3/4th's (675 watts) of the amp power and the 8 ohm sub get 1/4th (225 watts) remaining which = 3/4 + 1/4 = 4/4 = 1 OR... 675 + 225 = 900 watts in all. That tells us one sub (2 ohm load) is about 4dB louder than the (8 ohm) sub. Will it work? Yes it will... but the 2 ohm sub is really straining while the 8 ohm sub is loafing along.
Failure mode analysis:
1. I see the 2 ohm sub failing first as it is getting ~ 60% more power than rated when you really push the subs hard
2. I can also see the sub amp crapping out at some point as it is running at a load below minimum ratings of 2.0 ohms
Yes, if you use the power wisely, this may all be fine for some time. But most guys like to pound the crap out of their systems until something fails. Then they go... "D'oh... wad happund here" ? Seems like you are a bit more intelligent than some... but a bit less conventional too. That's cool with me! SMILE
Finally, the 155 dB thing.... is that subs only or the entire system output readings? In a very well designed BP enclosure... do-able in subs. Cabin gain effect can make a huge difference in free SPL. A BP enclosure is very efficient. A single sub with an efficiency rating of say 92dB @1w/1m, will net 98-100 dB @ 1 watt. Add another 15-20dB of cabin gain effect and we could indeed get 115-120dB @ 1w. Amazing huh? So, in theory, 155dB of SPL at 900 watts RMS is possible.
In short, take it or leave it... If Victor likes what he has done and is well satisfied with the outcome... who am I to judge. A good stirring debate is always worth the time. Just make sure we keep things friendly and not get personal about the matter. Live and let live is the motto here.
Swez
Relax_The_Mind on 10/18/2004 11:01:54
It is possible to lengthen the life of an overdriven amplifier if you have a godo amount of cooling. Some as simple as a cheap computer fan blowing over it or through an enclosure (or well designed amp rack. As long as there isnt sitting air where the heatsinks are and insinde the amp casing. Most of the overdriven amps like in your case that I have seen (more extreme cases) you could cook an egg on the top for just being on for like 25-30 minutes.
vicflo
PS. I dont remember the link but there was an 8" kicker that hit 141Db in a multi chamber box. dont remember what order it was but its was like 4cuf and took up the entire back of a truck cab.
very efficient but huge...i mean huge space wasting boxes. If you ever seen how big bass scoops that are at clubs and concert halls you know what im talking about. Thats why they are commonly incorporated into walls and floors as part of the structure of the building.
Victor on 10/18/2004 14:13:07
there you go.. a much more sensible explanation of what shud be done and what not.. this place is really amazing.. well i would also like to bring to your notice.. one more thing.. i have 2 per channel ie. 4 speakers in the rear.. let me bring to your notice one more thing...
the specs of those speakers..
80w rms
freq response:- 35-22,000.
impedence 4 ohms.
Theil small parameteres
fs :- 45Hz
Qts :- 0.5
Qes :- 0.6
Qms :- 2.2
Vas :- 29
Xmax :- +/- 2,5
voice coil diameter 35.5 mm
all you guys out there please calculate the volume of sealed enclosure needed to put all the four speakers in the same enclosure..
please do this bit of effort for me.. before you read ahead.
i shall remind you that these speakers are installed as " free air" into the boot of the car.. the volume of the boot is 145 litres.
Its very much like what Victor( relax _the _mind ) said.. the boot is converted into a huge spaced box like the ones in concerts and clubs..
and regarding cooling the amps.. i forgot to tell you that i have used a quite unconventional cooling system.. the amps are integrated in a rack. The rack is made of sandwitched layers of wood, fibre insulator and a water cooling system.. the cooling system comprises for wound tube of 2mm inner diameter .. through which water is pumped into continous circulation by a 12Vdc motor. and there is a separate water storage of 650ml .. this water keeps on circulating.. i have also used 2 exhaust fans in the push and pull config for the intake and outlet or air.
Regarding the 75% - 25% usage of power by woofers.. i had never thought of it.. i agree with swez.. but dont worry i shall find out some innovative idea to that.. its just a matter of time..
comments????
thanks to all..
please keep this going.. i feel i shall get to learn lots from all of you..
Thanks again
Victor....
Relax_The_Mind on 10/19/2004 07:08:40
Comment:
Water cooling doesnt work well (or at all) unless the heat is radiated from the liquid. 2mm may or may not be sufficient to even be feasible to use, as the flow resistance of the diameter alone would make it inefficient. Much like the radiator in your car. if there was no radiator and a huge fan the water would just boil over and end up causing more harm than good. (didnt see it noted in your post).
Idea:
An ideal way to cool an amp is to mount an aluminum or copper pipe joint directly onto the heatsinks of the main amplification transistors (they are usually about 1x.5"-1x1" and are physically attached or touching the casing) and have water/coolant mix being pumped through out that way. much like the way the bazooka liquid cooled amp system works. This would allow you to overdrive the amp quite a bit more as energy given off in heat is what makes transistors so inefficient.
Suggestion:
To make your air cooling more effective is to always get fresh air to your air cooled system so that heat that is generated will not just be sitting there (recirculated in the same area) generating more heat which isnt such a big deal in a hatchback/wagon with the windows opened. Better yet is ducting your ac to blow through a rack to preferably outside the car somehow.
Heh i may have to direct this to someone else as the conversions from US standard to metric is already messing me up on this post.
vicflo
PS. Nice to see you keep up with your posts. i wrote the 75%-25% on your other post.
Victor on 10/19/2004 08:22:35
ok.. how about first trying to change the cooling medium rather than the whole system.. what if i used water+coolant mixture instead of plain water.. wud it make a good difference.. will it be enough??nad yes.. i told u i have installed the fans diagonally one facing inside and the other outside so that there is continuous intake of new air and outlet of the hot air..
well the A/C duct option is a very good one i wud want to try it.. any guesses how much i wud have to spend on it??... and for the time being will the present cooling system with the coolant mixture help??..
comments please..
Victor...
uochronos on 10/19/2004 11:55:20
the problem is the way i understand it is that you 1 have the water tubs going threw the wood maybe a few milimeters from the amp itself to be truly helpfull this water should be pass almost directly over the casing of the amps specificaly near the transitors RTM mentioned..
also as he mentiond without a way to get the heat out of the water your just heating the watter more then cooling the amp. infact after the water heats up your probaly almost heating the amp more then cooling it. if you really want to do it you would need something similar to a raditor that the water could travel threw and have anough cool air passing threw it so that the water cools before going back to the amp.
i dont personaly think adding coolant to it well help alot without some way of cooling the liquid after it has gone over the amps heat sink. it wont matter what liquid is in it till that can happen.
a good design that i plan to use and in fact am in the process of building is an amp rack where the amps is completly inclosed i'm going tio have plexi glass windows above them so i can see them. but then on either end it has a fan one side is pushing air in while the other end is pushing it out. so there is always new cool air in the chamber and its exhuasting hot air one way while sucking cold air in the other direction.
Chronos
admin on 10/19/2004 22:29:19
Ok cool IDEA guys. Amp builders jump on this and build one into the amp at design time .. lol
Walt USFLAG
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