I'm going to have to upgrade my mid drivers mounted in the doors of my 240SX. Since I have installed a pair of Credence 8"s, the doors seem to not be able to keep up with them in midbass quality and quantity.
Several problems exists here: The already installed peerless are too low a Qts (.35 or so) and spl (87db) to exhibit enough midbass even when baffled with foam enclosures. They have a good lower bass which is not needed (maybe if there were no subs). The Credence subs are almost too good for 8"s. They have the response of 10"s almost and therefore demand a mid with enough punch to keep imaging up front. The available space in the fabbed door boards only have enough for a 5-1/4 or 5x7 (the boards are oval). Originally they were made for 4x6 and there is no way I will go back to them.
All I'm looking for is some high Q 5-1/4 midbass woofers only with a fairly high efficiency since the tweets are on the dash. I seen some new older Mtx Blue Thunders on ebay. Does anyone know how they are?
Replies (21)
swez on 10/3/2004 14:39:06
Are the MB drivers amped at the moment or just powered off the HU?
I understand your frustrations as I have been dabbling with a mix and match 3-way system. The MB & Tweeters are Audiobahn. (5.25") The subs I have are MTX Blue Thunders. (12's) The problem I have is just the opposite of yours. The tweets and MB are high efficiency (94dB @1w/1m. The subs are 87. They were all passive crossovers and the Mid/highs were so much louder than the subs, I then tried bi-amping. It helped some... but the mid/highs were still way out of balance with the sub. (even at 400 WRMS to sub) The Bahns do get very loud with only 20 WRMS of power. I just cannot seem to get very good SQ from these Bahns. Very good MB punch, but terribly shrill tweeters.
Anyway, start your search by looking at high efficiency MB drivers. Most car audio drivers are 90dB or higher. If you went with Peerless, most likely a low efficiency rating... under 88 SPL.
The other option is amping the MB drivers if possible. Having extra power for them will help balance out your 8" woofers and MB. Of coarse, you can alway raise the crossover point on the woofers to say 150 Hz and the same for MB. (150-500 Hz)
Can you give more details on all the gear you have installed? Maybe there are a few tricks we can suggest to help you get better SQL performance.
Swez
PS Wanna try the Bahns and see how they sound in your system? Just need bass blockers or active crossover/amp to blend them to your system. If you want them and like them... $65.00/set + S/H.
asplundher on 10/3/2004 19:01:50
Right now the front are Peerless 5-1/4 (discontinued 830341 from P.E.) with Massive 3/4"(#?) silk domes run off a US Acoustics USB 4065. The subs are Credence svc 8's powered by a JBL 300.1.
The woofers are very tunable as they are seeing just the right amount of power and with both x-overs from both amps various combos can be had. Exactly no problems at all there except I wish the JBL had a variable phase shift; then they would be more useful in SQ systems.
The main problem is there isn't enough mid bass punch from the Peerless to keep the bass up front unless the subs are turned down. The tweets are pretty smooth but the mid drivers just ain't hanging with the rest. Since I placed the tweets on the dash I have to tone down the treble around 2-4khz by about 2 notches on the deck to get a even response but still midbass is not quite as strong as I'd like it to be. An attenuator circuit would only help a little. Need a more robust driver.
You say the Bahns' have good bass, but are they accurate enough to please? I wonder how would they pair with some silk domes. Would have to use or make another x-over since the response will be different though.
asplundher on 10/4/2004 18:50:27
By the way what series are you running and what other Audiobahn series exhibit strong midbass?
swez on 10/4/2004 20:56:28
I see your point and understand the issues at hand... more MB performance is needed.
I'll have to check on the Bahn model # for this kit. It was a plate design originally. (6x8) and I removed the drivers from the original fixtures to use as Comps. (AK680KP, 5.25", 4 ohms,120 WRMS per speaker)
The MB drivers are very strong with low power and SQ was very good as well. I made a small enclosure for them. (a tube design, 6" dia, 7" deep and stuffed them with 2 oz. of polyfil) That really helped bring up the MB performance above 60 Hz. I was actually impressed with this aspect of their performance... but the tweeters and crossovers are IMHO.... are garbage! Way too bright/harsh for my tastes.
I would be happy to send the MB drivers to you (on loan) to see how they work for your present application. If you like them, $65.00 for the pair +S/H is all I request. If they don't meet your needs, just ship them back. Here you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. I am taking the risk... but think you are an honest guy.
If you wish to take advantage of this offer, my e-mail is: swezdp@juno.com. Just let me know what you wish to do and a mailing address if you want to try them out OK?
Swez
asplundher on 10/5/2004 19:02:42
I'm flattered about your offer but I'm not sure at this point what brand or size I want to use. I'm tired of the manufacturers not stating the mid-drivers theile small parameters. How do they expect you to have a decent install when you have to guess on what type of install is best suited for them? Guess I'll have to keep researching.
That tube (pvc, I presume) enclosure is pretty smart. Never thought of that, but it may just help me on the next pair I try. Heck who knows with that you may even be able to construct some type of midbass "bazooka". Afterall most pro installers recommend ported enclosures in the doors for better sound. I think I just might try that. I think I just got my next "brainstorm"!
Thanks Swez!
swez on 10/6/2004 05:00:08
The tube/enclosure I fashioned was made from a Folgers coffee container. (~0.1 cf) I cut the bottom out, used latex caulk to secure to back side of the speaker baffle board. The driver was pre-wired and a small hole at the lid for wiring out to crossover. Used Active EQing as my bandpass filter. Heck... it worked as that is all I had to play with.
With the lid removed, I could service the driver and installed polyfill. The results of MB performance in this "half-baked" enclosure was actually stunning. This driver could go down to 60 Hz nicely and was very robust in overall performance. The only problem with this enclosure, the walls were too thin to remain stable at high SPL. If I went over ~50 watts (RMS) The cone motion blew the plastic lid off.
Hey, this was just a fool around idea... Gee, let's see what happens when we do this kinda test. On the right track performance was obviously on target... but a more sturdy material is needed to make it really do the trick. In short, for quality MB performance, an good enclosure is definitely recommended. I guess that is why kick panels do so well compared to most open (free air) door mounts. They act like an enclosure.
Finally, you're right... only high end MB drivers offer T/S specs. But with some imperical testing, above average results can be determined. That's not much... but that's what I know to date.
Swez
PS There are some general parameters we can use when T/S specs are not know. But for the most part, it's trial and error w/o the T/S parameters. GRIN
asplundher on 10/11/2004 21:55:41
I swear researching auto electronics is getting tiresome! I've checked a lot of midbass woofers and component sets and to no avail. I even checked Epinions for some reviews and unless it's some expensive high end brand ....ZILCH!
So far I've narrowed it down to a few choices:
JBL GTO 502c (no crossover/ just a cap??!!)
SPL- 50C (aluminum cone/ crossover w/zobel)
Just don't know enough about this brand!
AudioBahn AS50Q (x-overs extra? Nice
phase plug)
Lanzar VB5.1 (good sonics/limited availability and
high shipping where available;
costs more than new models)
A pretty hard choice with the Lanzars being at the top of the want list and the Bahns at the bottom. I actually heard some of the VB series highs and man are they nice. When My amp sells I'll see how much I can afford to splurge. If anyone can tell me about the SPLs please let me know.
asplundher on 10/13/2004 15:21:59
Yo Swez, what do you think about this idea:
Run a pair of 5.25 ASQ series Bahns and the same series 3.5 in the doors with the Massive silk tweets on the dash. The Bahn tweets won't be used since you say they are harsh. Just the mids with the phase plugs. I could run coils on the 5.25's at about 600 down to where the electronic x-over runs (120?). Then cap the 3.5's at about 500-600 up to natural roll-off or biamped off of USB4065 rear with x-over at highest setting with a very small choke at about where the tweets come in (3000). The tweets can be run off the deck (Pioneer Mosfet) which should be plenty plus they have their on crossover network. Also their placement on the dash should prove them more efficient.
The mids should have enough volume to keep up with the subs with hopefully more midbass punch since their range will be limited. Roughly a three way setup for highs. Then the 8's can be ran at a little lower setting to help keep more bass up front.
All in theory but, I'm willing to give it a try since I can't get any bigger than a 5.25 in the door without drastic augmenting. Later on if I need, another set of 3.5's ran off the deck or amp can be used for rear fill.
asplundher on 10/13/2004 16:06:26
Swez, well how about this one?
I'm thinking I might be able to squeeze a pair of the Bahn ASQ 5x7's in the doors. I could use just the phase plugs and put the tweets in my truck. The Massive silk tweets have their own x-over network but, I may have to run them off the deck to attenuate them. Could make a good mix and match since silk domes have a lower resonance and could mate better with the bigger mids.
Surely the 5x7's even free-aired should have more bass than a pair of 5.25's.
Later on a pair of ASQ 3.5's for rear fill to insure no midbass is pulled towards the back.
How do the ASQ series fair on bass and midrange quality? In the least it will make for a cheap upgrade for those series are pretty low cost now.
Let me know what you think. I plan to do something within the next week.
swez on 10/13/2004 18:52:49
I feel your pain Ash!
MB in a car is a hard thing to acheive without a decent enclosure. Most typical door mounts are free air or have a high Vas and low Qtc. Tough to get true MB balance w/o some kind of reasonable baffling or an enclosure.
Have you looked at Parts Express offerings of late? I know they have a good selection of 6 and 8" drivers... not so much in 5.25" drivers. Also, these will need to be pretty high efficiency in the target frequency range used. As you already know, phasing is a key issue.
OK, help me out a bit now... so I can work with you more closely on this one. You mentioned Peerless 5.25's in there now and a USB-4065 amp to power them and the tweeters yes? Have you bridged the 4065 to a 2 channel for the front channels? More power here to be sure, but what crossover freq are you using now? I would hope it's somewhere in the 60-1,500 Hz., on the HPF's. (depends on how low the tweeters can go and still handle power)
Also, try this... reverse the wiring polarity on 1 side only. With the subs muted, try to determine if the MB performance is better or worse than wired now. You may have to reverse the tweeter polarity back to normal here, but worth the effort as you can change polarity at the amp and not mess with speakers.
The only other options I can think of are:
1. Boost the LP filter to your woofers to say 120-150 Hz and see how they sound as a whole system.
2. Install separate midbass drivers in rear of vehicle and enclose them top prevent the sub bass waves from imparing their performance. If you use a pair, bridge the rear channels of the 4065 and use 8 ohm MB drivers in parallel for a 4 ohm load.
3. Use a single potent 4/8 ohm MB driver in the back off the bridged 4065 amp. At low frequencies, audio content is pretty much omnidirectional. As you get up into the midrange catagory, then stereo imaging become appearant.
This one:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?DID=7&PartNumber=295-600 (DynaVox makes several great products) A 3" voice coil on a 5.25" driver... how do you like that?
(The down side of this one is moderate efficiency and they are 8 ohm units.) Only need 1 of these drivers in rear for potent MB performance off bridged rear channels and a filtering to range desired
Comments?
Swez
swez on 10/13/2004 19:15:31
Ya know, the offer still stands on trying the Bahns I have here now. Would be more than happy to send them to you for a trial period and see what you get in this application. The only thing I ask is Shipping charges both ways if they don't satisfy. At $65.00 for the pair, cannot go wrong there either.
They are an older model... but brand new in terms of use and appearance. The only thing... you have to make a baffle plate to install them as they only use 3 screw hole mounts. (12:00, 4:00 & 8:00 positions for the holes)
Like I mentioned before, these are 4 ohms, ~94dB/1w/1m, 120 wrms per each, butyl rubber surrounds and a HD crosshatch weaved cone. The offer still stands... I trust you!
Swez
swezdp@juno.com
PS I will not send the tweeters as they just don't cut it for SQ. Way too harsh as compared to quality silks.
asplundher on 10/18/2004 12:18:53
Okay Now I have decided on and started building enclosures in the doors for the Peerless'. Right now I'm wating for the foam to set so I can start fiberglassing. They will be pretty simple but, hopefully effective.
I decided to do this for I had to admit that the install wasn't fully optimized to get the most out of them. Therefore, I felt that simply discarding them for a "better" set would be kinda redundant if I hadn't gave them a fair chance
Can you believe I went to a local car show and one of the local dealers actually had a couple new pair of the same Peerless mids, in which he highly acclaimed. When I asked him how much he wanted for them (just in case I needed them); I knew then that crack smoking is an epidemic! $100.00 bucks a pair! When I only payed $20. Thank God for Partsexpress! No doubt he got them from there too for the same price!
asplundher on 10/20/2004 08:05:21
Well, the enclosures are almost done. Hopefully if everything goes well I should be getting something better than what I had.
Must admit this was kind of a last minute "throw-in". After a few bugs had to be reworked, I think I finally have a pretty good design. From within the car you won't be able to tell theres anything behind the door panel. All thats left is to cut a few holes for the drivers, fasten them to the doors, run some wire and the results should be seen.
Later on, if I decide to move up a size, it can be easily converted to accomodate 6.5's.
swez on 10/20/2004 08:46:07
Peerless makes some very high quality speakers. I have Peerless silk dome tweets in my Polk monitors and have had them for years. They sound as good now as they did in 1978, when I bought them. To date, these are more or less my reference speakers. Studio Monitor 7a's series bookshelf design, 6.5" woofer and 10" passive radiator.
About your setup, the biggest issue I can see here is getting a decent enclosure for them and amp them adequately to get full performance.
The low eff numbers and a free air mounting scheme are holding them back. A decent enclosure, between 0.1-0.3 cf should bring out the MB a good deal. (as I learned in my Folger's coffee enclosure experiment)
What a huge difference in MB/MR performance in the container VS free air. I can't tell you how much that changed the performance characteristics of what I originally considered a marginal driver. Coupled with about 75 watts RMS of amping power, I was literally astounded at the results. (it takes a lot to impress me these days too)
Anyway, I hope your plan works. Just make sure you have adequate amping power here. Filtering is VERY important. 60-100 Hz for MB, extended midrange (1,500 - 3,000 Hz.) to what ever the tweeters need are key to a well balanced Component set. The crossover design is a huge part of the puzzle. A 12dB/octave filter network (Butterworth or Linkwitz-Reily) are great and if the tweets are a bit overpowering, add a Zobel attenuation network (or L-pads) for the tweeters. Parts Express has several pre-fab crossovers that can be used as well. Some are very simple 2-way designs and more expensive power crossovers as well.
If after all the work is completed and you still desire more midbass, a nice 8" driver in the back will surely help fill in the gaps. MB is more or less Omi-directional. (like subs, but less so) so a single MB driver would be a good option here. Just a matter of amping to adequate power and using a narrow pass (Band pass) filter network, is key to controlling frequency range.
Comments?
Swez
asplundher on 10/20/2004 09:02:58
True, True. These are the first handmade enclosures that I have built. So I hoping for some good results. I went back and found a link for the orignal ad on PE for these and despite what I thought, they have a efficency of 90. Must have been the crappy free air design holding them back like you say.
Even with the xtc foam baffles, the amount of midbass added was minimal. If anybody else reads this thread, take my advise that I cannot stress enough:
Rigid, Rigid, Rigid! As with any sub, if you want your mids to perform like they should (unless they are specifically designed for free air) then you must make a firm, dampened enclosure. Anything that flexes will take awy from them. Equipment is 30% but, install quality is 70%. This is the common mistake we all make at times when rush to hear our stereo. Take your time and maximize your install to the fullest wether it be low line or high level equipment. All will benefit from it!
swez on 10/20/2004 09:19:12
Well said and good luck on your project.
BTW, if you can get a Clio frequency plot on that driver, you may find the eff numbers are much lower than 90dB at 60-300 Hz. Many smaller format drivers have peak efficiency above 800 Hz. Why? The impedence is high at Fs and steadily drops as frequency goes up. This is due to voice coil inductance values. (basically acts like a 6dB filter network at low frequencies) This is why most woofers and MB drivers are less efficient than Mid/Highs. Cone mass also impedes eff at low frequencies. The greater the mass of the cone and motor structure used, the less efficient the driver will be. More RMS power can overcome that factor. Light weight cones and short/small voice coils tend to be much more efficient, but take much less power to reach X-max.
Swez
asplundher on 10/20/2004 22:24:09
Ahhh, I see what your saying. I finished and installed the door enclosures. The results was good. The drivers exhibited more midbass with quite a bit more mid frequency detail. Enough to be satisfied with but, (here's the objectional) still not quite what I'm looking for.
I'm still impressed with them, just not enough lower punch in the 75-120hz range. Listening to some Steely Dan, the guitars are robust and yet still finely detailed right down to the plucking of the strings. Voices are very natural.
Now throw in some Bass Quake and there's their limit. Good snare snap and tom thump on the rolling bass but, it just misses right at the point where the subs start to take over. Not good enough! It cannot keep the bass from traveling towards the back on bass heavy tracks. I've tried playing around with a few different tricks and couldn't get any further results.
All in all, I won't "dis" them for most would say they are competent enough. And they are, just not what I'm looking for. I've already ordered some older model Kicker R5's to replace them. I might use them in another setup later on. They would make excellent mids on a 3-way highs setup.
LC1 on 10/21/2004 18:06:06
Why are you expecting super-low bass from from a "mid-bass" driver? Its called mid bass because its precicely what it says mid-bass. To get the lower freq. your sub takes over for that the job. I know you already know this, so why spend $$$ and hours and hours trying to get sub bass from mid bass drivers?
-Jay-
Victor on 10/21/2004 18:38:19
i agree with lc1.. but what i did in my old wagon was something amazing..
i had these two sony (home theater system speakers).. the player and the amp were blown off during a short circuit in the house.. the speaker boxes had 6.5" woofers in it.. and wheh the sustem was working it gave nice low freq bass.. those are 6ohms woofers.. i took then and installed them as mid-bass in the front door kisk panels.. and wholla they played like almost 60 hz low..
and had nice mid-bass definition sound too..
look if u got something like that in the junk yard u may find something really interesting and useful..
Victor...
uochronos on 10/22/2004 02:46:53
ya raw drivers like victor said can really amaze you not super high quality but defiantly supperior to OEM stuff. www.partsexpress.com has alot of raw drivers and what not.
Chronos
swez on 10/22/2004 08:07:36
Seems like you are on the right track with your new MB enclosures. They still may not be large enough for this Peerless driver set however. To get well balanced MB performance, there is the enclosure factor.
These Peerless drivers were problably designed for 3-way home stereo applications or high end car audio. Thus, the speakers are in need of some form of adequate enclosure space to get that full, robust MB you are seeking. Filling the new enclosures with a little polyfill may help as well.
In all, it seems a though you have reached a wall in terms of performance for these drivers. A different pair may help.
Swez
Several problems exists here: The already installed peerless are too low a Qts (.35 or so) and spl (87db) to exhibit enough midbass even when baffled with foam enclosures. They have a good lower bass which is not needed (maybe if there were no subs). The Credence subs are almost too good for 8"s. They have the response of 10"s almost and therefore demand a mid with enough punch to keep imaging up front. The available space in the fabbed door boards only have enough for a 5-1/4 or 5x7 (the boards are oval). Originally they were made for 4x6 and there is no way I will go back to them.
All I'm looking for is some high Q 5-1/4 midbass woofers only with a fairly high efficiency since the tweets are on the dash. I seen some new older Mtx Blue Thunders on ebay. Does anyone know how they are?
Replies (21)
swez on 10/3/2004 14:39:06
Are the MB drivers amped at the moment or just powered off the HU?
I understand your frustrations as I have been dabbling with a mix and match 3-way system. The MB & Tweeters are Audiobahn. (5.25") The subs I have are MTX Blue Thunders. (12's) The problem I have is just the opposite of yours. The tweets and MB are high efficiency (94dB @1w/1m. The subs are 87. They were all passive crossovers and the Mid/highs were so much louder than the subs, I then tried bi-amping. It helped some... but the mid/highs were still way out of balance with the sub. (even at 400 WRMS to sub) The Bahns do get very loud with only 20 WRMS of power. I just cannot seem to get very good SQ from these Bahns. Very good MB punch, but terribly shrill tweeters.
Anyway, start your search by looking at high efficiency MB drivers. Most car audio drivers are 90dB or higher. If you went with Peerless, most likely a low efficiency rating... under 88 SPL.
The other option is amping the MB drivers if possible. Having extra power for them will help balance out your 8" woofers and MB. Of coarse, you can alway raise the crossover point on the woofers to say 150 Hz and the same for MB. (150-500 Hz)
Can you give more details on all the gear you have installed? Maybe there are a few tricks we can suggest to help you get better SQL performance.
Swez
PS Wanna try the Bahns and see how they sound in your system? Just need bass blockers or active crossover/amp to blend them to your system. If you want them and like them... $65.00/set + S/H.
asplundher on 10/3/2004 19:01:50
Right now the front are Peerless 5-1/4 (discontinued 830341 from P.E.) with Massive 3/4"(#?) silk domes run off a US Acoustics USB 4065. The subs are Credence svc 8's powered by a JBL 300.1.
The woofers are very tunable as they are seeing just the right amount of power and with both x-overs from both amps various combos can be had. Exactly no problems at all there except I wish the JBL had a variable phase shift; then they would be more useful in SQ systems.
The main problem is there isn't enough mid bass punch from the Peerless to keep the bass up front unless the subs are turned down. The tweets are pretty smooth but the mid drivers just ain't hanging with the rest. Since I placed the tweets on the dash I have to tone down the treble around 2-4khz by about 2 notches on the deck to get a even response but still midbass is not quite as strong as I'd like it to be. An attenuator circuit would only help a little. Need a more robust driver.
You say the Bahns' have good bass, but are they accurate enough to please? I wonder how would they pair with some silk domes. Would have to use or make another x-over since the response will be different though.
asplundher on 10/4/2004 18:50:27
By the way what series are you running and what other Audiobahn series exhibit strong midbass?
swez on 10/4/2004 20:56:28
I see your point and understand the issues at hand... more MB performance is needed.
I'll have to check on the Bahn model # for this kit. It was a plate design originally. (6x8) and I removed the drivers from the original fixtures to use as Comps. (AK680KP, 5.25", 4 ohms,120 WRMS per speaker)
The MB drivers are very strong with low power and SQ was very good as well. I made a small enclosure for them. (a tube design, 6" dia, 7" deep and stuffed them with 2 oz. of polyfil) That really helped bring up the MB performance above 60 Hz. I was actually impressed with this aspect of their performance... but the tweeters and crossovers are IMHO.... are garbage! Way too bright/harsh for my tastes.
I would be happy to send the MB drivers to you (on loan) to see how they work for your present application. If you like them, $65.00 for the pair +S/H is all I request. If they don't meet your needs, just ship them back. Here you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. I am taking the risk... but think you are an honest guy.
If you wish to take advantage of this offer, my e-mail is: swezdp@juno.com. Just let me know what you wish to do and a mailing address if you want to try them out OK?
Swez
asplundher on 10/5/2004 19:02:42
I'm flattered about your offer but I'm not sure at this point what brand or size I want to use. I'm tired of the manufacturers not stating the mid-drivers theile small parameters. How do they expect you to have a decent install when you have to guess on what type of install is best suited for them? Guess I'll have to keep researching.
That tube (pvc, I presume) enclosure is pretty smart. Never thought of that, but it may just help me on the next pair I try. Heck who knows with that you may even be able to construct some type of midbass "bazooka". Afterall most pro installers recommend ported enclosures in the doors for better sound. I think I just might try that. I think I just got my next "brainstorm"!
Thanks Swez!
swez on 10/6/2004 05:00:08
The tube/enclosure I fashioned was made from a Folgers coffee container. (~0.1 cf) I cut the bottom out, used latex caulk to secure to back side of the speaker baffle board. The driver was pre-wired and a small hole at the lid for wiring out to crossover. Used Active EQing as my bandpass filter. Heck... it worked as that is all I had to play with.
With the lid removed, I could service the driver and installed polyfill. The results of MB performance in this "half-baked" enclosure was actually stunning. This driver could go down to 60 Hz nicely and was very robust in overall performance. The only problem with this enclosure, the walls were too thin to remain stable at high SPL. If I went over ~50 watts (RMS) The cone motion blew the plastic lid off.
Hey, this was just a fool around idea... Gee, let's see what happens when we do this kinda test. On the right track performance was obviously on target... but a more sturdy material is needed to make it really do the trick. In short, for quality MB performance, an good enclosure is definitely recommended. I guess that is why kick panels do so well compared to most open (free air) door mounts. They act like an enclosure.
Finally, you're right... only high end MB drivers offer T/S specs. But with some imperical testing, above average results can be determined. That's not much... but that's what I know to date.
Swez
PS There are some general parameters we can use when T/S specs are not know. But for the most part, it's trial and error w/o the T/S parameters. GRIN
asplundher on 10/11/2004 21:55:41
I swear researching auto electronics is getting tiresome! I've checked a lot of midbass woofers and component sets and to no avail. I even checked Epinions for some reviews and unless it's some expensive high end brand ....ZILCH!
So far I've narrowed it down to a few choices:
JBL GTO 502c (no crossover/ just a cap??!!)
SPL- 50C (aluminum cone/ crossover w/zobel)
Just don't know enough about this brand!
AudioBahn AS50Q (x-overs extra? Nice
phase plug)
Lanzar VB5.1 (good sonics/limited availability and
high shipping where available;
costs more than new models)
A pretty hard choice with the Lanzars being at the top of the want list and the Bahns at the bottom. I actually heard some of the VB series highs and man are they nice. When My amp sells I'll see how much I can afford to splurge. If anyone can tell me about the SPLs please let me know.
asplundher on 10/13/2004 15:21:59
Yo Swez, what do you think about this idea:
Run a pair of 5.25 ASQ series Bahns and the same series 3.5 in the doors with the Massive silk tweets on the dash. The Bahn tweets won't be used since you say they are harsh. Just the mids with the phase plugs. I could run coils on the 5.25's at about 600 down to where the electronic x-over runs (120?). Then cap the 3.5's at about 500-600 up to natural roll-off or biamped off of USB4065 rear with x-over at highest setting with a very small choke at about where the tweets come in (3000). The tweets can be run off the deck (Pioneer Mosfet) which should be plenty plus they have their on crossover network. Also their placement on the dash should prove them more efficient.
The mids should have enough volume to keep up with the subs with hopefully more midbass punch since their range will be limited. Roughly a three way setup for highs. Then the 8's can be ran at a little lower setting to help keep more bass up front.
All in theory but, I'm willing to give it a try since I can't get any bigger than a 5.25 in the door without drastic augmenting. Later on if I need, another set of 3.5's ran off the deck or amp can be used for rear fill.
asplundher on 10/13/2004 16:06:26
Swez, well how about this one?
I'm thinking I might be able to squeeze a pair of the Bahn ASQ 5x7's in the doors. I could use just the phase plugs and put the tweets in my truck. The Massive silk tweets have their own x-over network but, I may have to run them off the deck to attenuate them. Could make a good mix and match since silk domes have a lower resonance and could mate better with the bigger mids.
Surely the 5x7's even free-aired should have more bass than a pair of 5.25's.
Later on a pair of ASQ 3.5's for rear fill to insure no midbass is pulled towards the back.
How do the ASQ series fair on bass and midrange quality? In the least it will make for a cheap upgrade for those series are pretty low cost now.
Let me know what you think. I plan to do something within the next week.
swez on 10/13/2004 18:52:49
I feel your pain Ash!
MB in a car is a hard thing to acheive without a decent enclosure. Most typical door mounts are free air or have a high Vas and low Qtc. Tough to get true MB balance w/o some kind of reasonable baffling or an enclosure.
Have you looked at Parts Express offerings of late? I know they have a good selection of 6 and 8" drivers... not so much in 5.25" drivers. Also, these will need to be pretty high efficiency in the target frequency range used. As you already know, phasing is a key issue.
OK, help me out a bit now... so I can work with you more closely on this one. You mentioned Peerless 5.25's in there now and a USB-4065 amp to power them and the tweeters yes? Have you bridged the 4065 to a 2 channel for the front channels? More power here to be sure, but what crossover freq are you using now? I would hope it's somewhere in the 60-1,500 Hz., on the HPF's. (depends on how low the tweeters can go and still handle power)
Also, try this... reverse the wiring polarity on 1 side only. With the subs muted, try to determine if the MB performance is better or worse than wired now. You may have to reverse the tweeter polarity back to normal here, but worth the effort as you can change polarity at the amp and not mess with speakers.
The only other options I can think of are:
1. Boost the LP filter to your woofers to say 120-150 Hz and see how they sound as a whole system.
2. Install separate midbass drivers in rear of vehicle and enclose them top prevent the sub bass waves from imparing their performance. If you use a pair, bridge the rear channels of the 4065 and use 8 ohm MB drivers in parallel for a 4 ohm load.
3. Use a single potent 4/8 ohm MB driver in the back off the bridged 4065 amp. At low frequencies, audio content is pretty much omnidirectional. As you get up into the midrange catagory, then stereo imaging become appearant.
This one:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?DID=7&PartNumber=295-600 (DynaVox makes several great products) A 3" voice coil on a 5.25" driver... how do you like that?
(The down side of this one is moderate efficiency and they are 8 ohm units.) Only need 1 of these drivers in rear for potent MB performance off bridged rear channels and a filtering to range desired
Comments?
Swez
swez on 10/13/2004 19:15:31
Ya know, the offer still stands on trying the Bahns I have here now. Would be more than happy to send them to you for a trial period and see what you get in this application. The only thing I ask is Shipping charges both ways if they don't satisfy. At $65.00 for the pair, cannot go wrong there either.
They are an older model... but brand new in terms of use and appearance. The only thing... you have to make a baffle plate to install them as they only use 3 screw hole mounts. (12:00, 4:00 & 8:00 positions for the holes)
Like I mentioned before, these are 4 ohms, ~94dB/1w/1m, 120 wrms per each, butyl rubber surrounds and a HD crosshatch weaved cone. The offer still stands... I trust you!
Swez
swezdp@juno.com
PS I will not send the tweeters as they just don't cut it for SQ. Way too harsh as compared to quality silks.
asplundher on 10/18/2004 12:18:53
Okay Now I have decided on and started building enclosures in the doors for the Peerless'. Right now I'm wating for the foam to set so I can start fiberglassing. They will be pretty simple but, hopefully effective.
I decided to do this for I had to admit that the install wasn't fully optimized to get the most out of them. Therefore, I felt that simply discarding them for a "better" set would be kinda redundant if I hadn't gave them a fair chance
Can you believe I went to a local car show and one of the local dealers actually had a couple new pair of the same Peerless mids, in which he highly acclaimed. When I asked him how much he wanted for them (just in case I needed them); I knew then that crack smoking is an epidemic! $100.00 bucks a pair! When I only payed $20. Thank God for Partsexpress! No doubt he got them from there too for the same price!
asplundher on 10/20/2004 08:05:21
Well, the enclosures are almost done. Hopefully if everything goes well I should be getting something better than what I had.
Must admit this was kind of a last minute "throw-in". After a few bugs had to be reworked, I think I finally have a pretty good design. From within the car you won't be able to tell theres anything behind the door panel. All thats left is to cut a few holes for the drivers, fasten them to the doors, run some wire and the results should be seen.
Later on, if I decide to move up a size, it can be easily converted to accomodate 6.5's.
swez on 10/20/2004 08:46:07
Peerless makes some very high quality speakers. I have Peerless silk dome tweets in my Polk monitors and have had them for years. They sound as good now as they did in 1978, when I bought them. To date, these are more or less my reference speakers. Studio Monitor 7a's series bookshelf design, 6.5" woofer and 10" passive radiator.
About your setup, the biggest issue I can see here is getting a decent enclosure for them and amp them adequately to get full performance.
The low eff numbers and a free air mounting scheme are holding them back. A decent enclosure, between 0.1-0.3 cf should bring out the MB a good deal. (as I learned in my Folger's coffee enclosure experiment)
What a huge difference in MB/MR performance in the container VS free air. I can't tell you how much that changed the performance characteristics of what I originally considered a marginal driver. Coupled with about 75 watts RMS of amping power, I was literally astounded at the results. (it takes a lot to impress me these days too)
Anyway, I hope your plan works. Just make sure you have adequate amping power here. Filtering is VERY important. 60-100 Hz for MB, extended midrange (1,500 - 3,000 Hz.) to what ever the tweeters need are key to a well balanced Component set. The crossover design is a huge part of the puzzle. A 12dB/octave filter network (Butterworth or Linkwitz-Reily) are great and if the tweets are a bit overpowering, add a Zobel attenuation network (or L-pads) for the tweeters. Parts Express has several pre-fab crossovers that can be used as well. Some are very simple 2-way designs and more expensive power crossovers as well.
If after all the work is completed and you still desire more midbass, a nice 8" driver in the back will surely help fill in the gaps. MB is more or less Omi-directional. (like subs, but less so) so a single MB driver would be a good option here. Just a matter of amping to adequate power and using a narrow pass (Band pass) filter network, is key to controlling frequency range.
Comments?
Swez
asplundher on 10/20/2004 09:02:58
True, True. These are the first handmade enclosures that I have built. So I hoping for some good results. I went back and found a link for the orignal ad on PE for these and despite what I thought, they have a efficency of 90. Must have been the crappy free air design holding them back like you say.
Even with the xtc foam baffles, the amount of midbass added was minimal. If anybody else reads this thread, take my advise that I cannot stress enough:
Rigid, Rigid, Rigid! As with any sub, if you want your mids to perform like they should (unless they are specifically designed for free air) then you must make a firm, dampened enclosure. Anything that flexes will take awy from them. Equipment is 30% but, install quality is 70%. This is the common mistake we all make at times when rush to hear our stereo. Take your time and maximize your install to the fullest wether it be low line or high level equipment. All will benefit from it!
swez on 10/20/2004 09:19:12
Well said and good luck on your project.
BTW, if you can get a Clio frequency plot on that driver, you may find the eff numbers are much lower than 90dB at 60-300 Hz. Many smaller format drivers have peak efficiency above 800 Hz. Why? The impedence is high at Fs and steadily drops as frequency goes up. This is due to voice coil inductance values. (basically acts like a 6dB filter network at low frequencies) This is why most woofers and MB drivers are less efficient than Mid/Highs. Cone mass also impedes eff at low frequencies. The greater the mass of the cone and motor structure used, the less efficient the driver will be. More RMS power can overcome that factor. Light weight cones and short/small voice coils tend to be much more efficient, but take much less power to reach X-max.
Swez
asplundher on 10/20/2004 22:24:09
Ahhh, I see what your saying. I finished and installed the door enclosures. The results was good. The drivers exhibited more midbass with quite a bit more mid frequency detail. Enough to be satisfied with but, (here's the objectional) still not quite what I'm looking for.
I'm still impressed with them, just not enough lower punch in the 75-120hz range. Listening to some Steely Dan, the guitars are robust and yet still finely detailed right down to the plucking of the strings. Voices are very natural.
Now throw in some Bass Quake and there's their limit. Good snare snap and tom thump on the rolling bass but, it just misses right at the point where the subs start to take over. Not good enough! It cannot keep the bass from traveling towards the back on bass heavy tracks. I've tried playing around with a few different tricks and couldn't get any further results.
All in all, I won't "dis" them for most would say they are competent enough. And they are, just not what I'm looking for. I've already ordered some older model Kicker R5's to replace them. I might use them in another setup later on. They would make excellent mids on a 3-way highs setup.
LC1 on 10/21/2004 18:06:06
Why are you expecting super-low bass from from a "mid-bass" driver? Its called mid bass because its precicely what it says mid-bass. To get the lower freq. your sub takes over for that the job. I know you already know this, so why spend $$$ and hours and hours trying to get sub bass from mid bass drivers?
-Jay-
Victor on 10/21/2004 18:38:19
i agree with lc1.. but what i did in my old wagon was something amazing..
i had these two sony (home theater system speakers).. the player and the amp were blown off during a short circuit in the house.. the speaker boxes had 6.5" woofers in it.. and wheh the sustem was working it gave nice low freq bass.. those are 6ohms woofers.. i took then and installed them as mid-bass in the front door kisk panels.. and wholla they played like almost 60 hz low..
and had nice mid-bass definition sound too..
look if u got something like that in the junk yard u may find something really interesting and useful..
Victor...
uochronos on 10/22/2004 02:46:53
ya raw drivers like victor said can really amaze you not super high quality but defiantly supperior to OEM stuff. www.partsexpress.com has alot of raw drivers and what not.
Chronos
swez on 10/22/2004 08:07:36
Seems like you are on the right track with your new MB enclosures. They still may not be large enough for this Peerless driver set however. To get well balanced MB performance, there is the enclosure factor.
These Peerless drivers were problably designed for 3-way home stereo applications or high end car audio. Thus, the speakers are in need of some form of adequate enclosure space to get that full, robust MB you are seeking. Filling the new enclosures with a little polyfill may help as well.
In all, it seems a though you have reached a wall in terms of performance for these drivers. A different pair may help.
Swez
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