Anybody know of any that would do CDT cl61 comps good but also have around 600w to the subs?
Replies (31)
erikcooper on 09/20/2004 15:12:44
I also forgot to mention that in my new vehicle I am planning to go pure SQL. I want some good bump, but I want it all to sound good. I haven't decided if I want to go with RE subs or ED Kv.2 subs. Both are around 300 rms per sub and plan to run 2. I have my CDT CL61s in the door/a-pillar and may be getting something more for the back doors and if it seems practical, a center channel. Once I get my DVD system hooked up I want to have as good of sound as possible and I figured 5.1 would be the way to go. Comments and suggestions?
I also still have the Audiobahn 15 that I got a while back if anyone is interested in it.
P0werLifter on 09/20/2004 15:47:24
Whats your budget? So you want a single amplifier that will run a pair of CDT CL61s and 600watts to the subs correct?
What series sub are you considering from RE? I just ordered my 15" XXX from them GRIN
-Jason
erikcooper on 09/20/2004 17:01:56
I don't need the XXX. It is a little more SPL than SQ so I am thinking of running the next level down so either the SE or the SX. I haven't decided because I want it to pound, but I want it to sound great doing it. If were to end up with RE rather than ED I would really only need one of them. I am thinking if I keep my Kicker K410s for rear fill or get some new 2 ways for rear fill, and get one CDT 2 way for the dash to do the center channel, combined with my CL61s and the subs it would make for a great 5.1 system IF I can find an amp that will put around 100w to the comps, ~40w to the rear fill and center channel, and 600w to the subs.
P0werLifter on 09/20/2004 17:06:53
Sounds like a plan! from what ive heard though the XXX is just like the brahma in providing Great SQ while really pumping the SPL out too with the XBL^2 motorstructure. The SE or the SX would be a very good option to. I have seen both and their beefy also GRIN . Looks like you have a great system lined up there bro.
uochronos on 09/20/2004 17:09:56
really look into getting a center channel though from what i understand it doesnt improve sound that much in a car. in your home system the right and left speakers are fairly far apart lets say 8+feet the center channel fills that gap. in a car your speakers are what 4 feet apart..... and i have heard its hard to set up a good sounding center channel in a car. so just look into it well before deciding.
Chronos
erikcooper on 09/20/2004 17:34:58
Ok, so what kind of amp would do good surround sound? Say to have 100w to the front, ~40w to the rear fill, and 600w to the sub/subs. The main thing is to have it where if I have a DVD in with dolby 5.1 on it, it will work that way on my sound system.
swez on 09/20/2004 17:58:54
I was thinking the same as Chronos...center channel in a car is hard to work with due to such a confined space. Also, where do we sit in a car? Driver or passenger side correct? So how can a center channel be all that effective in a 52" front stage? In a 8-12 foot front stage... yes! In a 52" stage... I dunno.
The 5 channel amp issue is also a compromise. Mainly enough sub power. Phoenix Gold has a few 5 channels and so does Alpine. But I don't recall any I have seen offering that much power in a 5 channel configuration. Think the best you can do would be a 100 x 4 and a
600 x 1 for the subs.
Finally, powering all that amp gear will draws some serious current from the electricals. Figure ~50A for the sub amp (Class D or T) and ~60A for the 4 channel of that power. That's 110A for amps alone. Then figure the car will need ~50A to operate properly as well. Does this car have a 160A ALT? If not, that's about what is needed.
Yes, I am sure you'll have great SQL in this plan...but is it worth an extra $500.00 in electrical upgrades? Think it over.
Swez
PS Good to see ya back on the board EC. We have a few new Golds since you were last here. Say hello to them.. Chonos and POwer Lifter
ttocs on 09/20/2004 23:26:08
JL makes a great 5 channel amp. I cannot remember the model(I don't memorize them) but I have installed a couple and been impressed. It has a great x-over and good sub pwr.
uochronos on 09/21/2004 02:50:45
Phoenix gold makes a 5 channel amp with i belive 400watts for the sub. they also had one that was an aniversery edition or something like that about a year or 2 ago it was like 100x4 plus a 500watt channel i think. if you could find one of those on ebay or somewhere cheap used it may be a good options.
erikcooper on 09/21/2004 15:43:48
The car only has an 80A alt on it but Iraggi already has up to 180A in the same case and he believes his GM alt cases will bolt up as well, which are good for about 300! :O
What kind of bass do you think one ED 13Kv.2 would put out? The RE SE 12" is supposed to take 600w, would it be able to perform with only 400w or 500w?
swez on 09/22/2004 11:20:47
That sub should be fine at under 600 watts RMS. If you went below say.... 250 RMS, waste of money using that potent a sub. But 400-500 watts RMS is plenty good for that sub.
Swez
erikcooper on 09/22/2004 17:27:19
Oh if I had to go 300w or less I could go with on ED 13Kv.2. What kind of comparison do you think between two ED 13Kv.2 and one RE SE 12"? I have a box fit for 2 12s right now so the EDs may be the best option.
uochronos on 09/22/2004 17:38:36
both are good subs... i have a 12kx ED sub thats one level below an old K serries i have 400watts going to it excelent SQ and volume cappabilities
why buy 2 13Kv2 subs though when one can handle 600watts? a single sub pushing 600watts well be as loud as 2 of them pushing 600watts. seems like a waste of space and money to go with 2 when 1 can handle the power. unless you go ported then 2 would be a good option.
As for the RE subs i ahev never heard one before but PL has and can probaly give you some info.
Chronos
P0werLifter on 09/23/2004 01:30:54
Ive heard the RE at a shop around here i frequent...sounded really nice, not only that but the owner Ryan opened up a brand new one and was letting me look at it..pick it up,,,etc....the sub was pretty beefy, tripple stacked magnents, good basket structure, had some good girth to it. a very viable option in my opinion.
-Jason
erikcooper on 09/23/2004 11:33:22
PL you know what a RE SE or SX in 12" would cost me? I can get the ED 13Kv.2 for $125.
P0werLifter on 09/23/2004 13:41:34
Alrighty I called Ryan at the shop I go to and you might be better off going with the ED for $125 if you've heard them or dont want to spend more than you need to.
The SE series is $249 and the SX is $365. Most likely more than what you want to spend on a subwoofer compared the the ED. You could also call RE and see if they have a retailer in your area, If they do or dont, you might get them cheaper also. (Ca Sales Tax, shipping costs, shop markups etc ---Ryan doesnt mark them up to much but due to shipping its more expensive)
www.REAudio.com
heres their phone number if you do want to call
(702) 869-4823
Hope this helps ya
-Jason
erikcooper on 09/23/2004 15:27:22
I wish RE sold direct like ED. That is probably the reason Ed is cheaper. They sell their subs at $125 with free shipping. I may do that route until I can come up with something through RE for sponsorship.
P0werLifter on 09/23/2004 18:02:01
Try calling RE directly with the number I provided you. Once in contact with them tell them you are interested in purchasing from them directly. If infact they do not have a dealer in your general area, then they WILL infact deal directly with you. You could also explain to them that either they deal direct with you, or you dont purchase their products at all. That might sway their opinion or not...but worth a shot if your interested in RE GRIN
Goodluck lemme know how it goes
-Jason
swez on 09/24/2004 08:25:43
Some smaller companies can do "direct sales" well as they are set up to do biz that way. Larger companies may only use distribution and retail channels to sell their products. That's going to drive the price up as each hand that touches the product, adds a markup for profit margins. Why do you think Rockford is so high priced? Not because it is a superior product... it's the middlemen markups that drive the price up so much.
Just thought that info might be helpful in your choices and purchasing strategy.
Swez
erikcooper on 10/1/2004 13:26:19
Another question?
Would the best thing to do be to get a deck that runs a 5.1 system and then just feed through seperate amps? Would that work better. I basicly am just looking for a good surround sound setup when I am watching a movie. I haven't got screens, DVD player, or deck yet so anything works here. Give me your suggestions.
swez on 10/1/2004 21:35:21
Amps are just that... they amplify whatever signals you give them. Just a matter of having enough channels to amplify all the signals available from your AV HU. Once you know what kind of HU you plan to use, then match amping and speakers to what is avilable from your HU.
As mentioned earlier, not sure how a center channel will perform in a smaller vehicle. In HT, yes, you get a composite mix of audio from the Tuner/deck. That requires a separate channel, maybe two if stereo.
At the very least, a 5 channel mix is appropriate. Two channels for front stage, 2 more for rear stage and 1 additional channel for MONO sub output. If you need more than 5 channels, then separate amps make sense. However, I have seen 6/7 channel amps out there. But these are very pricey. If one channel goes out, you lose all amplification while the amp is in for repairs.
Finally, if it were my install, I'd opt for a solid 4 channel (full range) and a MONO sub amp. If you wish to use a center channel, a 2 channel amp makes sense to add to the mix. This way, if one stage of the system goes out, you still have some audio while waiting for repairs. Just MHO...
Swez
erikcooper on 10/3/2004 00:37:35
I assume that is what I will do. But, will a HU amp combo be able to send the perfect mix of L/R and F/R signals to do the surround? Sub channel is just that, so it is simple.
swez on 10/3/2004 06:12:36
That's a good question... I did a little research and could not find any HU's for car A/V that claim true 5.1 features. There are SRS synthisizers that can be added for effects... but do not see any true THX 5.1 systems. You may have to poke around on google or go to a few high end car A/V salons to get the answer to that question.
Swez
erikcooper on 10/3/2004 11:57:07
Ok, forget 5.1 That is just to much. Especially for the chance of it not being that great. What about just surround sound? FL & FR, RL & RR, Sub. That is plenty. Would a HU amp combo do that fine?
LC1 on 10/3/2004 12:38:50
This isn't really much help to you finding a 5.1 system, but the new Lincoln LS is going to have a factory option to upgrade to a THX certified sound system with somthing like 14 speakers and a subwoofer. The whole system was designed by "THX" if that is a name of the company i dunno lol. I don't know if its out this model year or next but I'd love to hear what that would sound like.
erikcooper on 10/6/2004 00:08:30
swez or uochronos. Do either of you remember the digital amps i was looking at back at the beginning of the year? I can't remember the brand...
uochronos on 10/6/2004 02:15:45
sorry i dont recall. i have been trying to remember the companies that now make digital amps. but avionixx is the only one i can think of right noe
Chronos
swez on 10/6/2004 04:39:24
Digital amps are pretty much confined to Class D and Class T amps from my readings. Class D amps are good for bass applications only as the frequency response is usually limited to below 400 Hz. They use PWM power supplies and medium high switching frequencies to obtain high efficiency ratings >85% compaired to Class A/B amps that do 55-60% eff ratings at best.
For high fidelity (full range) amplification, the Class T amp that employs the patented Tripath chip technologhy is the latest development in true HI/FI amplification. The high switch mode power supply allows for very good efficiency ratings and low intermodulation distortion problems that are most common in true digital amplifiers.
Avionixx is the only maker I know that uses this technology in car audio. Alpine will be offering a line of Class T amps at CAS this winter. I am not sure what happened to Avionixxusa.com... their website is gone for the moment and we have no other information on if/where to obtain them. I suspect they are back to the drawing board resolving problems not seen initially in design/beta-testing and now fallout in the field, seems to have caused them to re-trench and determine appropriate design fixes.
Swez
erikcooper on 10/7/2004 00:04:55
avionixx was it. I knew if I heard it I would remember. So their webpage is down huh?
erikcooper on 10/7/2004 00:08:53
just googled and found out that avionixxusa.com doesn't work but if you get a bypass into the site it still works.
http://www.avionixx.com/ep/products.htm
try that.
uochronos on 10/7/2004 03:15:43
ya they cleared all there product out though.. supposedly for the release of an all new line. so even if you get into a part of the site you cant order an amp, they sold off all there back stock... there are a few one ebay from time to time.
also keep in mind that these amps have had alot of field failers i have had one for 6 months now with no problems. but alot of people have had problems.
Chronos
Replies (31)
erikcooper on 09/20/2004 15:12:44
I also forgot to mention that in my new vehicle I am planning to go pure SQL. I want some good bump, but I want it all to sound good. I haven't decided if I want to go with RE subs or ED Kv.2 subs. Both are around 300 rms per sub and plan to run 2. I have my CDT CL61s in the door/a-pillar and may be getting something more for the back doors and if it seems practical, a center channel. Once I get my DVD system hooked up I want to have as good of sound as possible and I figured 5.1 would be the way to go. Comments and suggestions?
I also still have the Audiobahn 15 that I got a while back if anyone is interested in it.
P0werLifter on 09/20/2004 15:47:24
Whats your budget? So you want a single amplifier that will run a pair of CDT CL61s and 600watts to the subs correct?
What series sub are you considering from RE? I just ordered my 15" XXX from them GRIN
-Jason
erikcooper on 09/20/2004 17:01:56
I don't need the XXX. It is a little more SPL than SQ so I am thinking of running the next level down so either the SE or the SX. I haven't decided because I want it to pound, but I want it to sound great doing it. If were to end up with RE rather than ED I would really only need one of them. I am thinking if I keep my Kicker K410s for rear fill or get some new 2 ways for rear fill, and get one CDT 2 way for the dash to do the center channel, combined with my CL61s and the subs it would make for a great 5.1 system IF I can find an amp that will put around 100w to the comps, ~40w to the rear fill and center channel, and 600w to the subs.
P0werLifter on 09/20/2004 17:06:53
Sounds like a plan! from what ive heard though the XXX is just like the brahma in providing Great SQ while really pumping the SPL out too with the XBL^2 motorstructure. The SE or the SX would be a very good option to. I have seen both and their beefy also GRIN . Looks like you have a great system lined up there bro.
uochronos on 09/20/2004 17:09:56
really look into getting a center channel though from what i understand it doesnt improve sound that much in a car. in your home system the right and left speakers are fairly far apart lets say 8+feet the center channel fills that gap. in a car your speakers are what 4 feet apart..... and i have heard its hard to set up a good sounding center channel in a car. so just look into it well before deciding.
Chronos
erikcooper on 09/20/2004 17:34:58
Ok, so what kind of amp would do good surround sound? Say to have 100w to the front, ~40w to the rear fill, and 600w to the sub/subs. The main thing is to have it where if I have a DVD in with dolby 5.1 on it, it will work that way on my sound system.
swez on 09/20/2004 17:58:54
I was thinking the same as Chronos...center channel in a car is hard to work with due to such a confined space. Also, where do we sit in a car? Driver or passenger side correct? So how can a center channel be all that effective in a 52" front stage? In a 8-12 foot front stage... yes! In a 52" stage... I dunno.
The 5 channel amp issue is also a compromise. Mainly enough sub power. Phoenix Gold has a few 5 channels and so does Alpine. But I don't recall any I have seen offering that much power in a 5 channel configuration. Think the best you can do would be a 100 x 4 and a
600 x 1 for the subs.
Finally, powering all that amp gear will draws some serious current from the electricals. Figure ~50A for the sub amp (Class D or T) and ~60A for the 4 channel of that power. That's 110A for amps alone. Then figure the car will need ~50A to operate properly as well. Does this car have a 160A ALT? If not, that's about what is needed.
Yes, I am sure you'll have great SQL in this plan...but is it worth an extra $500.00 in electrical upgrades? Think it over.
Swez
PS Good to see ya back on the board EC. We have a few new Golds since you were last here. Say hello to them.. Chonos and POwer Lifter
ttocs on 09/20/2004 23:26:08
JL makes a great 5 channel amp. I cannot remember the model(I don't memorize them) but I have installed a couple and been impressed. It has a great x-over and good sub pwr.
uochronos on 09/21/2004 02:50:45
Phoenix gold makes a 5 channel amp with i belive 400watts for the sub. they also had one that was an aniversery edition or something like that about a year or 2 ago it was like 100x4 plus a 500watt channel i think. if you could find one of those on ebay or somewhere cheap used it may be a good options.
erikcooper on 09/21/2004 15:43:48
The car only has an 80A alt on it but Iraggi already has up to 180A in the same case and he believes his GM alt cases will bolt up as well, which are good for about 300! :O
What kind of bass do you think one ED 13Kv.2 would put out? The RE SE 12" is supposed to take 600w, would it be able to perform with only 400w or 500w?
swez on 09/22/2004 11:20:47
That sub should be fine at under 600 watts RMS. If you went below say.... 250 RMS, waste of money using that potent a sub. But 400-500 watts RMS is plenty good for that sub.
Swez
erikcooper on 09/22/2004 17:27:19
Oh if I had to go 300w or less I could go with on ED 13Kv.2. What kind of comparison do you think between two ED 13Kv.2 and one RE SE 12"? I have a box fit for 2 12s right now so the EDs may be the best option.
uochronos on 09/22/2004 17:38:36
both are good subs... i have a 12kx ED sub thats one level below an old K serries i have 400watts going to it excelent SQ and volume cappabilities
why buy 2 13Kv2 subs though when one can handle 600watts? a single sub pushing 600watts well be as loud as 2 of them pushing 600watts. seems like a waste of space and money to go with 2 when 1 can handle the power. unless you go ported then 2 would be a good option.
As for the RE subs i ahev never heard one before but PL has and can probaly give you some info.
Chronos
P0werLifter on 09/23/2004 01:30:54
Ive heard the RE at a shop around here i frequent...sounded really nice, not only that but the owner Ryan opened up a brand new one and was letting me look at it..pick it up,,,etc....the sub was pretty beefy, tripple stacked magnents, good basket structure, had some good girth to it. a very viable option in my opinion.
-Jason
erikcooper on 09/23/2004 11:33:22
PL you know what a RE SE or SX in 12" would cost me? I can get the ED 13Kv.2 for $125.
P0werLifter on 09/23/2004 13:41:34
Alrighty I called Ryan at the shop I go to and you might be better off going with the ED for $125 if you've heard them or dont want to spend more than you need to.
The SE series is $249 and the SX is $365. Most likely more than what you want to spend on a subwoofer compared the the ED. You could also call RE and see if they have a retailer in your area, If they do or dont, you might get them cheaper also. (Ca Sales Tax, shipping costs, shop markups etc ---Ryan doesnt mark them up to much but due to shipping its more expensive)
www.REAudio.com
heres their phone number if you do want to call
(702) 869-4823
Hope this helps ya
-Jason
erikcooper on 09/23/2004 15:27:22
I wish RE sold direct like ED. That is probably the reason Ed is cheaper. They sell their subs at $125 with free shipping. I may do that route until I can come up with something through RE for sponsorship.
P0werLifter on 09/23/2004 18:02:01
Try calling RE directly with the number I provided you. Once in contact with them tell them you are interested in purchasing from them directly. If infact they do not have a dealer in your general area, then they WILL infact deal directly with you. You could also explain to them that either they deal direct with you, or you dont purchase their products at all. That might sway their opinion or not...but worth a shot if your interested in RE GRIN
Goodluck lemme know how it goes
-Jason
swez on 09/24/2004 08:25:43
Some smaller companies can do "direct sales" well as they are set up to do biz that way. Larger companies may only use distribution and retail channels to sell their products. That's going to drive the price up as each hand that touches the product, adds a markup for profit margins. Why do you think Rockford is so high priced? Not because it is a superior product... it's the middlemen markups that drive the price up so much.
Just thought that info might be helpful in your choices and purchasing strategy.
Swez
erikcooper on 10/1/2004 13:26:19
Another question?
Would the best thing to do be to get a deck that runs a 5.1 system and then just feed through seperate amps? Would that work better. I basicly am just looking for a good surround sound setup when I am watching a movie. I haven't got screens, DVD player, or deck yet so anything works here. Give me your suggestions.
swez on 10/1/2004 21:35:21
Amps are just that... they amplify whatever signals you give them. Just a matter of having enough channels to amplify all the signals available from your AV HU. Once you know what kind of HU you plan to use, then match amping and speakers to what is avilable from your HU.
As mentioned earlier, not sure how a center channel will perform in a smaller vehicle. In HT, yes, you get a composite mix of audio from the Tuner/deck. That requires a separate channel, maybe two if stereo.
At the very least, a 5 channel mix is appropriate. Two channels for front stage, 2 more for rear stage and 1 additional channel for MONO sub output. If you need more than 5 channels, then separate amps make sense. However, I have seen 6/7 channel amps out there. But these are very pricey. If one channel goes out, you lose all amplification while the amp is in for repairs.
Finally, if it were my install, I'd opt for a solid 4 channel (full range) and a MONO sub amp. If you wish to use a center channel, a 2 channel amp makes sense to add to the mix. This way, if one stage of the system goes out, you still have some audio while waiting for repairs. Just MHO...
Swez
erikcooper on 10/3/2004 00:37:35
I assume that is what I will do. But, will a HU amp combo be able to send the perfect mix of L/R and F/R signals to do the surround? Sub channel is just that, so it is simple.
swez on 10/3/2004 06:12:36
That's a good question... I did a little research and could not find any HU's for car A/V that claim true 5.1 features. There are SRS synthisizers that can be added for effects... but do not see any true THX 5.1 systems. You may have to poke around on google or go to a few high end car A/V salons to get the answer to that question.
Swez
erikcooper on 10/3/2004 11:57:07
Ok, forget 5.1 That is just to much. Especially for the chance of it not being that great. What about just surround sound? FL & FR, RL & RR, Sub. That is plenty. Would a HU amp combo do that fine?
LC1 on 10/3/2004 12:38:50
This isn't really much help to you finding a 5.1 system, but the new Lincoln LS is going to have a factory option to upgrade to a THX certified sound system with somthing like 14 speakers and a subwoofer. The whole system was designed by "THX" if that is a name of the company i dunno lol. I don't know if its out this model year or next but I'd love to hear what that would sound like.
erikcooper on 10/6/2004 00:08:30
swez or uochronos. Do either of you remember the digital amps i was looking at back at the beginning of the year? I can't remember the brand...
uochronos on 10/6/2004 02:15:45
sorry i dont recall. i have been trying to remember the companies that now make digital amps. but avionixx is the only one i can think of right noe
Chronos
swez on 10/6/2004 04:39:24
Digital amps are pretty much confined to Class D and Class T amps from my readings. Class D amps are good for bass applications only as the frequency response is usually limited to below 400 Hz. They use PWM power supplies and medium high switching frequencies to obtain high efficiency ratings >85% compaired to Class A/B amps that do 55-60% eff ratings at best.
For high fidelity (full range) amplification, the Class T amp that employs the patented Tripath chip technologhy is the latest development in true HI/FI amplification. The high switch mode power supply allows for very good efficiency ratings and low intermodulation distortion problems that are most common in true digital amplifiers.
Avionixx is the only maker I know that uses this technology in car audio. Alpine will be offering a line of Class T amps at CAS this winter. I am not sure what happened to Avionixxusa.com... their website is gone for the moment and we have no other information on if/where to obtain them. I suspect they are back to the drawing board resolving problems not seen initially in design/beta-testing and now fallout in the field, seems to have caused them to re-trench and determine appropriate design fixes.
Swez
erikcooper on 10/7/2004 00:04:55
avionixx was it. I knew if I heard it I would remember. So their webpage is down huh?
erikcooper on 10/7/2004 00:08:53
just googled and found out that avionixxusa.com doesn't work but if you get a bypass into the site it still works.
http://www.avionixx.com/ep/products.htm
try that.
uochronos on 10/7/2004 03:15:43
ya they cleared all there product out though.. supposedly for the release of an all new line. so even if you get into a part of the site you cant order an amp, they sold off all there back stock... there are a few one ebay from time to time.
also keep in mind that these amps have had alot of field failers i have had one for 6 months now with no problems. but alot of people have had problems.
Chronos
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