I have been doing some research the past couple of days/nights on subwoofers that would run on "FREE AIR" applications. IDEA Seems as though Kicker comp & VR series are the best one's on the market for that particular set up. THINK
I was curious before purchasing a Kicker CompVR 03CVR182 18 Subwoofer I wanted to hear some suggestions on whether it would fit my 1991 Acura Legend & what kind of Amp output would be needed to accomidate such a massive Woofer.
Thanks in advance & "Woooo Pig Soooie" GRIN
Replies (11)
uochronos on 09/10/2004 02:17:34
as far as i know Kicker is not a great brand for free air... basicaly the enclosure is what controls cone movemnt... may i ask why free air is your goal? even a small box would drasticaly improve sound.
many newer subs require .5 cubic foot enclosures. this is very small.
as for how much power very little.. if a sub requires .8 cubic feet and is 500watts rms then the larger the enclosure the less power it can handle. i dont know the exact math but with no enclosure i would say most subs could not take more then 100watts free air.
even door speaker sound better with a small enclosure or if the door is sealed into an enclosure.
i dont suggest running any sub free ait unless you really plan it out super well. this well cause premature Xmax and also may lose control of the cone wihtout back preasure causeing damage.
hope i have helped
Chronos
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 02:28:38
May I ask what has drawn you into desiring a free air set up? Im not sure if you would be very pleased with the results from this type of set up? Whats your goal? SPL? SQL? What?
here is a post with alot of valuable information as fa as "Free Air" setup and subwoofer reccomendations...I highly suggest you read it and if you have some questions we'll try to help you,
Do you have your heart set on a free air system? or can i try to sway you to go with a ported or a sealed enclosure?
Free Air Post
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?g2089_1733
-Jason
The_Bionic_Pig on 09/10/2004 02:36:37
Here is where I got the idea from: http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/product_info/details__cat_id--11940000,prod_id--7390485.html
My interest in Free Air instillation is based on how different the set-up would look, I also assumed a 18" would require a box that woul eat up my entire trunck vertually eliminating its use.
#2 Plus its rms is 100watts and peaks at 2000 watts both will in fact be sugnifically reduced due to not being enclosed. but is far more than I require anyway. To be honest I don't know D!#^ about Audio instillations but I am a huge fan especially when you hear them in vehicles on a daily basis. (some sound crappy while other's are oustanding)
3rd reason - Economically viable I will not have to pay a dealer hundreds of dollars just to build a box because i am already going to have the proffesional installer build a baffle and carpet it so it blends into the scenery of the trunk. (Keep in mind I am imagining the outcome)
Thank you for such a quick response Chronos you are a God-send GRIN
The_Bionic_Pig on 09/10/2004 02:44:43
Actually Jason that is how I came upon this site I googled "Free Air Subs" and "Walla clubknowledge.com's link appeared" and that very post.
As far as my goal of bass sound is concerned I am kinda a virgin to the concept of SPL -vs- SQL but I figured if I am going to use free air why not get the biggest Free Air woofer I could find with the most watts that way even if it loses some thump because of its lack of enclosure it is still impressive....plus I wanted to be different.
uochronos on 09/10/2004 02:53:45
ah i defiantly see where your coming from wanting originality and dont want to pay a ton to have a box built...
also yes kicker subs do require large boxes in general. but there are many many subs that take much smaller boxes. for instance Elemental designs subs require only a 1.5 cubic foot box for there 15" woofer. some requiire even less space.
also the few problems i can see you hitting here are as follows.
1 this wont get very loud being free air
2 the sub well have no air suspension making it very sloppy and cuaseing exess distortion
3 distortion and no back preasure can cause damage long run.
basicaly a sub uses the preasure in the box to give it a suspension like a shock so it cant bottom out. if there is no suspension and it gets a bit too much power then it well go further then mechanicaly possible cause severe damage.
honestly to make a decent free air set up that wont damage itself is extremly difficult. no to make one that sounds good on top of that and gets loud is very very difficult. some would say almost impossible.
i dont know how much room your acura has but i had a set of 10" subs 1cubic foot per sub in the back of my ford probe a very small car and it took less then 1/3 of my trunk.
i dont want to discourage you but i worry you well spend a good chunck of money and nto get what you wish at all.
also to build a box if extremly easy especialy sealed takes very little skill and limited tools. we can easily walk you threw it even drawing up some blue prints if you give us a bit of time.
also if you get a sub that requires 1cubic foot of space or .5 cubic feet most places have prebuilt enclosures of this size for under 50$
these are just a few of your options.
Chronos
uochronos on 09/10/2004 02:58:02
btw as far as using the bigegst free air woofer thats a bit flawed larger woofers in larger boxes already tend to get lower frequencies if you put a huge woofer in free air you well really only get sound under 60hz not much above that. also as far as being differnt i spent about 2 months so far on my current box build about 2 or 3 hours a week.end and have built something that noone else could say they have.
if you do go free air a huge woofer would be my personaly last choice i would go with 10" subs so you would still get a large frequency range. hope this helps
Chronos
The_Bionic_Pig on 09/10/2004 03:29:56
Well Chronos after reading your reply you have converted me to sealed enclosures, due to it being too my Cons going the "free air" route. I would be just as satified if I could create a system that is not as noticeable when you open the trunk but still is more than adequate. I am actually planning ahead of time because I am basically starting from scratch (some-one had stolen my old cheap head unit and subs & amp) I am envisioning a double din head unit with a component system and subs to finish it off. (Basically spending my checks before I get them) GRIN So one last question which one would you want the most #1 Cerwin Vega #2 JL Audio #3 Kicker and also 2-15" Woofers or 2 12" Woofers??? also I plan to donate once I set up paypal to get the above items because you probably saved me a few hundred dollars
Again thanks Chronos you are a good ambassador to bringing people who have a small interest and converting them into enthusist.
uochronos on 09/10/2004 03:40:43
from the subs you listed if i could spend any amount of money i would take a JL sub. they are pretty much the best of the mainstream companies. though Elemental deisngs, adire, and resonant engineering all make subs comparable to JL for much less money.
as for 2 15 or 3 12" subs everytimg you add another sub you only gain 3db at high volume this is basicaly unnoticable, also everytime you double the power you only gain 3db again barely noticable. a single good sub can be just as good as 3 subs. i have a truck so space is at a premium so i only run one sub and my 1 sub is louder then most peoples 2 or 3 sub setups because i planed it well.
if you want multi subs for looks then i prefer 3 subs, you can make this look very cool.
also most cars have a 100amp alternator stock. anything over 500watts of power RMS and you well probaly need to upgrade the alternator. although you can get very loud with 500watts. remembvr 1000watts is only 3db louder then the same setup at 500watts.
alot of stuff to learn and figure out here alot of personaly preference and knowledge to get a great sounding system..
one piece of advise take it slow rushing in is the worst mistake i eprsonaly ever made on my first couple systems.
hope this helps you out.
Chronos
PS
thanks for the compliment. i'm very passionate about car audio its what i think about all the time and absolutly love it, and i like to think that rubs off on others:)
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 03:44:46
Glad you've decided to go sealed. If you did infact want more thump, you could go to a ported design but they are more comlicated. Since this will be your 1st install,,,might want to go a head and stick with the basics.
I just wanted to inform you about some possible conflicts you might come across.
If you plan on running anything over about >700watts RMS your going to need to upgrade your alternator/ charging systems to support the amperage draw from your sound system.
A typical automobile has around a 100amp alternator. From the 100 amps your car uses 50-60amps to run your stock electricals so that leaves you with 40-50ampers to play around with, without having to do some upgrades.
Per say your going to run a 1000watt Class D amplifier (and thats it for right now). To figure out how much of an amp draw that amplifier is going to take, take the 1000watts divided by the efficiency factor (Class D amplifiers run in the 90% efficient range) then divide that number by 13.5 (your cars charging systems voltage) 1000/0.9= 1111.11.....1111.11/13.5 = 82.3 amp draw alone for your amplifier. Now tack on another 60amps...82.3+60= 142.3 amp draw total.
Your stock electricals will not run this efficiently and will end up leaving you stuck somewhere with no lights, no battery,,no power..and no way to get back home. IN this case you will need at least a 140amp alternator to keep up with the amperage demands from your system.
There are some articles in the DIY section that are very helpful in this department,
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t30
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t10
Im not trying to discourage you from running a higher power system, just mereley informing you of the mandatory upgrades that are essential to perform. A 600watt RMS system will be very loud also, It all comes down to enclosure design, installs, etc.
Hope this helps-
-Jason
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 03:51:08
Whats your budget as far as this system goes? JL audio is an awsome company, but here are some others worth checking out as chronos has stated above...
Resonate Engineering www.REaudio.com
Adire Audio www.adireaudio.com
Elemental Designs www.edesignaudio.com
These are just a few that I prefer, there are many many more that are quality subwoofers at a lower cost.
Once we know a specific budget you have to work with, we can recommend some components that will fit that price range..
-Jason
PS... Welcome to the board, you'll find plenty of available knowledge available here. If your interested in doing your own installs..we can walk you through the proceess GRIN
Again Welcome to Club Knowledge
swez on 09/10/2004 09:01:39
Covered this topic well Chronos and POwer Lifter. May I interject a few thoughts too?
A single high performance sub, will do a very good job here and take up minimal space from your trunk. If the sub has high efficiency along with good power handling, it will thump well with a 500-600 watt (RMS) amplifier. A quality Class D or T amp is perfect for sub applications as these amp designs are very efficient on power input VS power output.
Definitions:
SQ = Sound quality (a picky listener wants this) precise bass
SPL= Lots of loud bass (a bass freak likes this) LOUD bass
SQL = Above average SQ and adequate SPL (most seem to wind up here eventually)
Finally, the power demand of a large amp can be very hard on stock electricals. PL mentioned this already and covered it well. However, a well planned and executed install can give above average performance in SPL, SQ or SQL by choosing very efficient sub(s), an enclosure that gets the most out of the sub(s) used and adequate amping power.
Depending on the type of music you like and bass preferences (boomy bass or tight, punchy bass) we can help you in the planning stages.
Swez
PS Welcome to the CK family!
I was curious before purchasing a Kicker CompVR 03CVR182 18 Subwoofer I wanted to hear some suggestions on whether it would fit my 1991 Acura Legend & what kind of Amp output would be needed to accomidate such a massive Woofer.
Thanks in advance & "Woooo Pig Soooie" GRIN
Replies (11)
uochronos on 09/10/2004 02:17:34
as far as i know Kicker is not a great brand for free air... basicaly the enclosure is what controls cone movemnt... may i ask why free air is your goal? even a small box would drasticaly improve sound.
many newer subs require .5 cubic foot enclosures. this is very small.
as for how much power very little.. if a sub requires .8 cubic feet and is 500watts rms then the larger the enclosure the less power it can handle. i dont know the exact math but with no enclosure i would say most subs could not take more then 100watts free air.
even door speaker sound better with a small enclosure or if the door is sealed into an enclosure.
i dont suggest running any sub free ait unless you really plan it out super well. this well cause premature Xmax and also may lose control of the cone wihtout back preasure causeing damage.
hope i have helped
Chronos
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 02:28:38
May I ask what has drawn you into desiring a free air set up? Im not sure if you would be very pleased with the results from this type of set up? Whats your goal? SPL? SQL? What?
here is a post with alot of valuable information as fa as "Free Air" setup and subwoofer reccomendations...I highly suggest you read it and if you have some questions we'll try to help you,
Do you have your heart set on a free air system? or can i try to sway you to go with a ported or a sealed enclosure?
Free Air Post
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?g2089_1733
-Jason
The_Bionic_Pig on 09/10/2004 02:36:37
Here is where I got the idea from: http://www.bizrate.com/marketplace/product_info/details__cat_id--11940000,prod_id--7390485.html
My interest in Free Air instillation is based on how different the set-up would look, I also assumed a 18" would require a box that woul eat up my entire trunck vertually eliminating its use.
#2 Plus its rms is 100watts and peaks at 2000 watts both will in fact be sugnifically reduced due to not being enclosed. but is far more than I require anyway. To be honest I don't know D!#^ about Audio instillations but I am a huge fan especially when you hear them in vehicles on a daily basis. (some sound crappy while other's are oustanding)
3rd reason - Economically viable I will not have to pay a dealer hundreds of dollars just to build a box because i am already going to have the proffesional installer build a baffle and carpet it so it blends into the scenery of the trunk. (Keep in mind I am imagining the outcome)
Thank you for such a quick response Chronos you are a God-send GRIN
The_Bionic_Pig on 09/10/2004 02:44:43
Actually Jason that is how I came upon this site I googled "Free Air Subs" and "Walla clubknowledge.com's link appeared" and that very post.
As far as my goal of bass sound is concerned I am kinda a virgin to the concept of SPL -vs- SQL but I figured if I am going to use free air why not get the biggest Free Air woofer I could find with the most watts that way even if it loses some thump because of its lack of enclosure it is still impressive....plus I wanted to be different.
uochronos on 09/10/2004 02:53:45
ah i defiantly see where your coming from wanting originality and dont want to pay a ton to have a box built...
also yes kicker subs do require large boxes in general. but there are many many subs that take much smaller boxes. for instance Elemental designs subs require only a 1.5 cubic foot box for there 15" woofer. some requiire even less space.
also the few problems i can see you hitting here are as follows.
1 this wont get very loud being free air
2 the sub well have no air suspension making it very sloppy and cuaseing exess distortion
3 distortion and no back preasure can cause damage long run.
basicaly a sub uses the preasure in the box to give it a suspension like a shock so it cant bottom out. if there is no suspension and it gets a bit too much power then it well go further then mechanicaly possible cause severe damage.
honestly to make a decent free air set up that wont damage itself is extremly difficult. no to make one that sounds good on top of that and gets loud is very very difficult. some would say almost impossible.
i dont know how much room your acura has but i had a set of 10" subs 1cubic foot per sub in the back of my ford probe a very small car and it took less then 1/3 of my trunk.
i dont want to discourage you but i worry you well spend a good chunck of money and nto get what you wish at all.
also to build a box if extremly easy especialy sealed takes very little skill and limited tools. we can easily walk you threw it even drawing up some blue prints if you give us a bit of time.
also if you get a sub that requires 1cubic foot of space or .5 cubic feet most places have prebuilt enclosures of this size for under 50$
these are just a few of your options.
Chronos
uochronos on 09/10/2004 02:58:02
btw as far as using the bigegst free air woofer thats a bit flawed larger woofers in larger boxes already tend to get lower frequencies if you put a huge woofer in free air you well really only get sound under 60hz not much above that. also as far as being differnt i spent about 2 months so far on my current box build about 2 or 3 hours a week.end and have built something that noone else could say they have.
if you do go free air a huge woofer would be my personaly last choice i would go with 10" subs so you would still get a large frequency range. hope this helps
Chronos
The_Bionic_Pig on 09/10/2004 03:29:56
Well Chronos after reading your reply you have converted me to sealed enclosures, due to it being too my Cons going the "free air" route. I would be just as satified if I could create a system that is not as noticeable when you open the trunk but still is more than adequate. I am actually planning ahead of time because I am basically starting from scratch (some-one had stolen my old cheap head unit and subs & amp) I am envisioning a double din head unit with a component system and subs to finish it off. (Basically spending my checks before I get them) GRIN So one last question which one would you want the most #1 Cerwin Vega #2 JL Audio #3 Kicker and also 2-15" Woofers or 2 12" Woofers??? also I plan to donate once I set up paypal to get the above items because you probably saved me a few hundred dollars
Again thanks Chronos you are a good ambassador to bringing people who have a small interest and converting them into enthusist.
uochronos on 09/10/2004 03:40:43
from the subs you listed if i could spend any amount of money i would take a JL sub. they are pretty much the best of the mainstream companies. though Elemental deisngs, adire, and resonant engineering all make subs comparable to JL for much less money.
as for 2 15 or 3 12" subs everytimg you add another sub you only gain 3db at high volume this is basicaly unnoticable, also everytime you double the power you only gain 3db again barely noticable. a single good sub can be just as good as 3 subs. i have a truck so space is at a premium so i only run one sub and my 1 sub is louder then most peoples 2 or 3 sub setups because i planed it well.
if you want multi subs for looks then i prefer 3 subs, you can make this look very cool.
also most cars have a 100amp alternator stock. anything over 500watts of power RMS and you well probaly need to upgrade the alternator. although you can get very loud with 500watts. remembvr 1000watts is only 3db louder then the same setup at 500watts.
alot of stuff to learn and figure out here alot of personaly preference and knowledge to get a great sounding system..
one piece of advise take it slow rushing in is the worst mistake i eprsonaly ever made on my first couple systems.
hope this helps you out.
Chronos
PS
thanks for the compliment. i'm very passionate about car audio its what i think about all the time and absolutly love it, and i like to think that rubs off on others:)
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 03:44:46
Glad you've decided to go sealed. If you did infact want more thump, you could go to a ported design but they are more comlicated. Since this will be your 1st install,,,might want to go a head and stick with the basics.
I just wanted to inform you about some possible conflicts you might come across.
If you plan on running anything over about >700watts RMS your going to need to upgrade your alternator/ charging systems to support the amperage draw from your sound system.
A typical automobile has around a 100amp alternator. From the 100 amps your car uses 50-60amps to run your stock electricals so that leaves you with 40-50ampers to play around with, without having to do some upgrades.
Per say your going to run a 1000watt Class D amplifier (and thats it for right now). To figure out how much of an amp draw that amplifier is going to take, take the 1000watts divided by the efficiency factor (Class D amplifiers run in the 90% efficient range) then divide that number by 13.5 (your cars charging systems voltage) 1000/0.9= 1111.11.....1111.11/13.5 = 82.3 amp draw alone for your amplifier. Now tack on another 60amps...82.3+60= 142.3 amp draw total.
Your stock electricals will not run this efficiently and will end up leaving you stuck somewhere with no lights, no battery,,no power..and no way to get back home. IN this case you will need at least a 140amp alternator to keep up with the amperage demands from your system.
There are some articles in the DIY section that are very helpful in this department,
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t30
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t10
Im not trying to discourage you from running a higher power system, just mereley informing you of the mandatory upgrades that are essential to perform. A 600watt RMS system will be very loud also, It all comes down to enclosure design, installs, etc.
Hope this helps-
-Jason
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 03:51:08
Whats your budget as far as this system goes? JL audio is an awsome company, but here are some others worth checking out as chronos has stated above...
Resonate Engineering www.REaudio.com
Adire Audio www.adireaudio.com
Elemental Designs www.edesignaudio.com
These are just a few that I prefer, there are many many more that are quality subwoofers at a lower cost.
Once we know a specific budget you have to work with, we can recommend some components that will fit that price range..
-Jason
PS... Welcome to the board, you'll find plenty of available knowledge available here. If your interested in doing your own installs..we can walk you through the proceess GRIN
Again Welcome to Club Knowledge
swez on 09/10/2004 09:01:39
Covered this topic well Chronos and POwer Lifter. May I interject a few thoughts too?
A single high performance sub, will do a very good job here and take up minimal space from your trunk. If the sub has high efficiency along with good power handling, it will thump well with a 500-600 watt (RMS) amplifier. A quality Class D or T amp is perfect for sub applications as these amp designs are very efficient on power input VS power output.
Definitions:
SQ = Sound quality (a picky listener wants this) precise bass
SPL= Lots of loud bass (a bass freak likes this) LOUD bass
SQL = Above average SQ and adequate SPL (most seem to wind up here eventually)
Finally, the power demand of a large amp can be very hard on stock electricals. PL mentioned this already and covered it well. However, a well planned and executed install can give above average performance in SPL, SQ or SQL by choosing very efficient sub(s), an enclosure that gets the most out of the sub(s) used and adequate amping power.
Depending on the type of music you like and bass preferences (boomy bass or tight, punchy bass) we can help you in the planning stages.
Swez
PS Welcome to the CK family!
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