Here's everything that I have/have ordered/will order:
2 Alpine 1021-D dual 2ohm Type R 10"
Alpine Type-X 5.25 Components
QLogic QLH10D75 .75 sealed box
Alpine MRV-T320 amp
Alpine MRD-M500 amp
Alpine 9833 head unit
My goals are just SQ, don't really care about loudness at all. Will these parts work for SQ? I'm not an Alpine fanatic, I just happened across some parts. Are QLogic boxes well made? Is the .75 (each) a good size box? Is sealed the way to go for sound quality? Is the MRDM500 enough to power both subs to a decent sound level? Will I need to upgrade my Accord's electrical system for this setup? What voltage am I running at, 14.4 or 12? Alpine lists different specs for each voltage. And last but not least, should I stick with the Alpine head unit or should I go with the Pioneer Premier 8600, same price. Oh, last but not least, is there a guide on mounting subs in boxes or is it just put it in and screw it down.
Sorry for having so many questions but it seems you guys are very knowledgeable and this is the best place to find info. Thank you very much in advance.
Replies (50)
ttocs on 09/3/2004 20:27:33
the only problem I would see is the deck install. I have not seen the '04s but I know they have been integrating the heater ac controls in past models. Should sound perty good and your electrical system should be ok.
Daniel on 09/3/2004 21:31:34
Thank you for the reply. Any information on mounting the subs in the box?
Anyone out in North Carolina? I'll gladly pay one of you guys instead of Circuit City.
uochronos on 09/4/2004 03:55:42
pretty much for mounting just screw sub to box.. i use a specific type of screw that is guarenteed not to break or work its way out. but any wood screw well work pretty much.
q logic makes good boxs. just make sure those subs are supposed to be in that size box... i have a set of the same subs and i belive that is the rigth size. but not 100% sure
you car runs at somewhere between 12-14 volt something like 13.8 usualy... 14.4 if pretty much the max a car can put out. thats why most reputable companies list a 12volt and a 14 volt wattage.
as for the head unit. i personaly love pioneer premier head units they are wonderfull. but alpine is no slouch at all. i say install the alpine if you like it keep it. if not then look into upgrading..
as whats the best box for SQ most people agree a sealed enclosure can get the best SQ response. although an extremly well designed ported box can as well. but a sealed is much simler and well net great sq.
also i wouldnt suggest having circuit city or best buy install it they have a couple good senoir installers and a bunch of fresh meat usualy and chances are your car can be used as a teaching instrument. i would suggest a reputable car stereo shop. look in the phone book should be at least a couple in your area.
also if you feel like it and want to save a few hundred dollars we can walk you threw installing it yourself. which takes awhile but saves alot of money.
well good luck
Chronos
Daniel on 09/4/2004 12:12:01
Thanks, I'll keep you guys updated.
Daniel on 09/4/2004 15:57:25
Question re: wiring subs
Am I doing it right for a 2ohm load to the amp for 2 2ohm DVC subs if I'm:
1. Hooking the the positive of one voice coil to the box
2. Hooking the negative of the OTHER voice coil to the box
3. Hooking the leftover negative of one voice coil to the positive of the other voice coil
4. Connecting the positive and positive of the two subs together outside the box, and connecting the negative and negative of the two subs outside the box?
Also, is 16 gauge speaker wire OK for the subs to use? Very short distance. If yes, then why when we're using 4gauge for the power? (just getting a little technical there)
Sorry, one more. I'm only planning to drive my rear fill with the head unit, is it still necessary to give it a direct connection to the battery? (VDrive amplifier)
swez on 09/4/2004 21:32:57
Should be a good SQ system when completed and installed properly. Quality HU, amps and speakers... good choices.
As for sub mounting, just pre-drill your holes into the box face. Use a 1/8" pilot hole here and #10 x 1" sheet metal screws. Four per sub is usually enough, but you can go all holes too.
The best way to wire a pair of DVC (2+2) in separate boxes is each box has a 4 ohm load. That means both coils are in series, 2+2 =4 ohms net per box. Here's a diagram to use:
+Amp..........+VC1-.......+VC2-........Amp - Sub #1
+Amp..........+VC1-.......+VC2-........Amp - Sub #2
This will give the amp a perfect match.. 2 ohms net load.
Wire gage for this much power, use #12 gage wires from amp to each sub. There's ~250 watts to each sub this way. (#16 is a bit small for this much power)
Using a V-Drive Alpine, it is recommended to use #10 gage power line from the battery. The HU has a lot more power amping ability than most common aftermarket models. (26 watts RMS/ch here) Plenty enough to drive rear speakers to adequate SPL levels for rear fill.
The MRV-T320 is 50 x 2 watts RMS @12.0 volts and 80 watts x2 at 14.4 volts input. Safe to say, ~60 watts RMS per channel is nominal power. Good for the front speakers.
If you want to save some money, have good skills working with your hands and a little extra time on the weekends, you can install much of this gear on your own. Having the HU installed by a good shop (not CC or BB) is a good idea. Just ask them to run all RCA lines and REM to the amp location you choose. Will only need 2 sets of RCA lines here. One set for 2 channel amp, the other for subs. That will save a lot of time and extra aggravation on your part of the install. Can even ask them to connect stock factory wiring from HU to rear channel speakers too. This way, you won't have to remove the HU to do the rest of the install.
We can walk you through the rest if you are willing to learn and have a "little frustration" to build character. If you are good with hands and tools, YOU CAN DO THE REST and save a small fortune. However, if you don't have any mechanical apptitude, call on a buddy who does to help out. Hopefully, someone who has done this kind of work before.
what say you?
Swez
Daniel on 09/4/2004 22:50:07
Definitely willing to do it myself and learn, but I have no idea where to start. The only experience I've ever had is installing a head unit in my other car. I also don't want to ruin anything or invest a large amount in tools I won't be using afterwards.
I was considering just doing the head unit and sub install and letting a shop do the amp and component speaker. That gets rid of the wiring difficulty part but if it's easy, then I'd like to do it all myself.
swez on 09/5/2004 09:29:25
According to ttocs, our chief install guru, the HU phase of the install may be the most tricky part of the job. I would heed that warning and let a shop do that phase of the install. Does your factory HU have a factory MX radio system installed? If yes, you will lose that feature if you switch to an aftermarket design.
The rest is pretty straight forward if the door panel speakers will accept 5.25" drivers w/o too much modification or metal cutting. Crutchfield shows the front doors use 5.25" speakers and the rear deck are 6x9's. That should not be too much trouble to install, once the door panels are removed.
As for amp, wiring and misc wiring... the hardest part is hiding the wires well and getting the main power feed line through the firewall to the BAT. Other that that, the rest is pretty simple... but may not be easy.
Swez
Daniel on 09/5/2004 11:56:27
Is this head unit different from others? I thought it was a matter of disconnecting the OEM head unit, hooking up a harness, and splicing it with the Alpine. I think I'm going to leave the original unit, and just use the adapter to fit the head unit in the cd tray below the controls. Is it any different, except for the VDrive?
The fronts have 6.5s, I think. I bought the smaller ones so they could fit easier because I heard the 6.5s were too big. I also have a set of 6.5 - 5.25 adapters. Where would you place the tweeter for ease of install + decent imaging?
Also, the firewall part is the most intimidating part. Which is the best place to fish a 4 gauge through? Should I also use polyfill for the box?
ttocs on 09/5/2004 12:19:33
if it is the deck that I remember, they have integrated the heater ac controls into the face of the radio. Remove the radio, and you remove the climate controls as well. Do you have a pic of it?
Daniel on 09/5/2004 12:37:14
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/561000-561999/561772_78_full.jpg
ttocs, there isn't a normal harness behind all that? A seperate AC control and a seperate audio control? My model doesn't have the XM or the steering wheel monted control.
I haven't opened anything yet as I just ordered the rest of the parts last Friday. As of now, I have the speakers, amps, and box. Waiting on the subs, head unit, and 4gauge wiring kit. Still need to order the radio mount and harness. Do you recommend just getting the dash kit/harness from Crutchfield and getting their install sheet along with it?
ttocs on 09/5/2004 16:28:46
that was the deck that I was expecting(watch that little screw behind the clock!). The problem is not so much the wiring(I'll mention later), as the fact that the deck, and climate controls are housed in one piece. I am not sure if there is a kit for that car or not, you better check into it 1rst. Most owners like the deck so much they do not want to pull it, so I have never taken one out.
The one that I specifically remember we put a sub and amp on the factory deck. There was ALOT of noise and after repeated attempts to move grounds, rca, input source we were still scratching our heads.
Daniel on 09/5/2004 18:24:04
I think I'm just going to leave the factory deck and just mount the kit below it. It's either 30 for the kit that mounts below it or around $150 for the factory looking kit.
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2004/120/x120997864-f.jpeg
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kJa5bTyKhQD/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=11&g=112200&I=120997862&o=p&a=1&cc=01&avf=Y&search=
swez on 09/5/2004 18:51:42
That kit makes sense and you will still have the stock HU in place and all climate control features too.
That kit shown looks like a 1 din HU will fit just nice. All you have to do is connect power wires and speaker outs to rear channel speakers. Then run your RCA lines back to amps and front speaker lines up to front speakers...Viola. According to Crutchfield, the front speakers are 5.25". The rear deck are 6x9's.
That V-drive HU does need a #10 wire from the battery. Anything less and you run the risk of melted power wires. Also, since you have 2 other amps, a #4 power line from BAT to amps is best. Ttocks can make a good suggestion on where to route your power line through the firewall. (Probably a clutch wire knock out near the brake peddle)
Once the power line is fed in, use a grommet to protect the wire from chaffing to bare metal and run your power line down the driver's side carpet trim rail to trunk. (another hole perhaps here too)
Then run your RCA's and REM lines down the Passenger's side trim rail and into trunk. The only thing left is running your front speaker lines back up to the doors. Ttocks... which is best...
1. Run amped speaker lines bundled with power line?
2. Run amped speaker lines bundled to RCA's?
3. Rum amped speaker lines elswhere? (Where is best choice?)
Swez
Daniel on 09/5/2004 20:04:56
Ok, I placed the order for that kit. Looks like I'm set to install it. I'll see what Ttocs says and go from there. Thank you guys very much.
Where should the tweeter go? Ear level next to handle or next to the door enclosure?
ttocs on 09/5/2004 22:01:03
As I said I have not put a deck into one of these so I was not aware of what was available. I would go below it as well rather then replace. Was that pic of you taking the deck out?
If you are going to run the deck wire to the battery, I would just make it simple and run the decks remote turn on, as well as pwr and ground for the deck, back to the amp. This will allow all of the decks and amps pwr connections to be at the exact same place, reducing noise problems and loops, while running a wire you were going to have to do anyway.
Daniel on 09/5/2004 22:19:13
And the speaker wire from amp to components? Power or RCA side?
Also, where to breach firewall?
Thanks in advance.
UKinstaller on 09/5/2004 22:52:08
i assisted in the installation of an in-dash dvd/monitor in an 04 accord, and i'ma be honest, it SUCKED. it was very hard to take apart. however, the kit looked excellent, it was the kit that replaced all of the climate controls and so forth, it looked factory after the installation. a LOT of care must be taken when taking out the factory radio. are you doing it yourself or having a shop do it?
-UK
Daniel on 09/5/2004 23:40:17
I just got it out for fun earlier today even though I don't have the headunit yet. It was fairly easy. I'm not planning to use the factory look kit because it's another $150. Maybe later on. I just followed these directions:
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/561772/3
ttocs on 09/6/2004 11:46:48
I would keep signal on one side and pwr on the other as usual. As for the firewall there should be grommet on the drivers side(i think drvrs). pop the hood and look in the engine(preferable on what ever side the bat is on) and see where the factory wires go through. If there is an extra grommet, use it. If there is no extra grommet, then try using a flashlight and look at the firewall from the inside. If you still do not see anyplace empty, see if you can run it with the factory wires. IF that is not an option, then repeat this on the pass side. Final option is to look for a place to drill.
Hey UK, how long did it take to find the screw under the clock? 1rst one I did I am amazed I did not break it.....
UKinstaller on 09/6/2004 21:09:33
i couldn't find it. i felt a lot of pressure when trying to pop it off, but i was afraid i was going to break it. i didn't think there was a screw under there. i showed it to the lead installer at the CC i work at and it took him about 5 minutes to find it.
isn't it amazing how good that kit looks though?? it looks stock. did yours look pretty good??
-UK
ttocs on 09/7/2004 15:56:20
I almost had my feett on the dash next to it to help me pull it off before I realized there had to be something there.
And for those of you that don't know. The clock on these cars looks like there is no way to take it out. You have to carefully pry it out to reveal a screw under it......
ttocs on 09/7/2004 22:57:03
ttt
swez on 09/8/2004 09:34:26
Bump ^
Daniel on 09/8/2004 10:27:12
ttocs and UKinstaller, Are you talking about the radio display or the entire unit? I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I don't see any clock except for the one that's integrated into that big unit.
My mounting kit is arriving tomorrow, let me know if you guys wanted any specific pics taken while I put it in.. The rest of the items (subs, head unit, and wiring kit) arrive on Saturday.
ttocs on 09/8/2004 14:48:57
the clock should be between the two airvents. Have you taken the radio out yet?
Daniel on 09/8/2004 14:54:04
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/561000-561999/561772_74_full.jpg
That's how mine looks. However, it has a passenger airbag off indicator, but no clock. I've taken the dash apart, still waiting on the parts to come in.
Daniel on 09/8/2004 22:05:04
Guys, should I put polyfill in the box? If yes, how much? Wondering about the 20oz pack or the 8oz pack.
ttocs on 09/8/2004 23:10:09
sorry, that was not the one that I was thinking of.
Daniel on 09/9/2004 01:45:52
http://www.hondacars.com/images/banners/2005/accord_sedan/interior_gallery/large2.jpg
You're probably talking about the EX interior.
swez on 09/9/2004 09:01:09
On polyfill, about 12-16 Oz per sub chamber, when using 12" subs. A little less for 10's, a bit more for 15's.
Swez
Daniel on 09/9/2004 20:15:28
Swez, is it necessary or good for a box of this size? Recommended size is .65 per chamber and it's at .75 as of now.
Also, I read your grounding article. Should I go through the trouble of grounding the head unit with the amps in the back or is it OK to just ground it nearby. How common is ground loop noise? Thanks.
P0werLifter on 09/9/2004 23:05:05
As far as using the polyfill for your box..its not necessary but id go ahead and put some in to help with the resonant frequency of he box,. You dont have to..but Id reccomend it.
As far as grounding your HU. You should be fine with grounding it to the car body at that point, but after that, ground everything else to a single point on the car body, or the chassis to avoid ground loops. Depending on how many amplifiers, Eqs, ETC groundloops become a problem rather quickly. But for right now, you should be just fine.
-Jason
swez on 09/10/2004 09:46:56
I use polyfill on all my enclosure designs. Why? I helps dampen rear bass waves inside the box and muffle box/enclosure resonance noises.
Doing a lot of Professional and commercial audio installs of late. All the enclosures we have installed are all filled with acoustical dampening materials of one kind or another. If this is what Pro gear uses... there must be a good reason and I follow that reasoning as well.
About grounding, the only product I would consider ground at the amps are the V-Drive Alpine HU's. These are the HU's that offer 25-27 watts RMS/channel. The #10 gage wiring for power and ground would be a good option to run off the same power/gnd source as amps to prevent most ground loop and engine noise issues.
Swez
Daniel on 09/10/2004 10:21:26
Thanks P0werLifter, congrats on your gold. Thanks Swez.
I'm excited as my gear is coming in tomorrow, according to FedEx.
I was worried about the heat dissipation for the subs in a sealed box with polyfiil. I understand a ported box because it lets air flow out but inside a sealed box, it seems as if it would act as insulation, further warming the sub. I've never heard of it so I might be wrong, but is it a valid concern?
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 13:22:21
Thanks Daniel, I bet your excited for tomorrow =) i know im allways chomping at the bit waiting for FedEx or UPS to get here with my goodies
As for the concern about heat dissapation. Dont worry about that as in a sealed enclosure the subwoofer has enough air movement from the cone as its in motion to keep the airflow moving around inside the enclosure cooling off the voice coils.
-Jason
Daniel on 09/10/2004 14:34:23
Sounds good, although they delayed it until the 15th. (Wednesday) :(
Daniel on 09/16/2004 00:12:12
Woohoo! The stuff came in today. However, after mounting the sub, I push down onto the cone, and I hear a slight air noise from the top left of the enclosure. The right sub doesn't do that. Should I unmount the subs and return the box because it's leaky? Or is it normal.. Also, if it were slightly leaky, would that degrade sound quality much? I also read somewhere that when I push down on the cone, it should return slowly. It seems to return fairly quickly (both).
I mounted them by just drilling a small hole and screwing it down. Did I do it correctly? No point in paying the store $45 to have them screw something down.
uochronos on 09/16/2004 00:22:25
sounds like you did it right. as for the leaky one i would just silicone it myself cost maybe 3$ and then let it dry over night before remounting sub.
as for returning slowly after pressing down. they should return fiarly slowly. it wont be extrmly slow but well be alot slower then if it was out of the box..
Chronos
swez on 09/16/2004 07:10:43
Yes, do seal the box with silicone, Liquid Nails or Latex caulking materials. Just run a 1/4" bead around each joint in the box and also around the wire termination cup. This should seal up all the major air leaks for you. Just let the adhesive cure overnight, then reinstall the subs the next day.
Since the subs are new, they will be stiff for a few hours until break in period is over. (usually 10-12 hours of use) When a sealed enclosure is very well sealed from sir leaks, the cones will return to normal rest position in a few seconds. If there are many air leaks, the cones will come back to rest point almost immediately.
Swez
ttocs on 09/16/2004 08:17:17
the box could be leaking, or the sub may not be mounted tight enough. If it is the sub, there is some foam tape you cam put on the back of the spkr to help it seal, available at any hardware store..
STRATUS225 on 09/16/2004 10:04:08
Just a small note after all of the install conversation. Daniel, you asked a couple of times where the tweeter should go and nobody has given you an answer to this question. My own experience tells me for best imaging place the tweeter no more than about a foot away from the mid driver. Any thoughts on this Golds?
Daniel on 09/16/2004 10:56:27
Thanks.. getting to work on it right now. I'm just going to mount it at ear level, next to the door handle. It has a decent amount of space there and the Type X's have the phase correction built into the x-over. I'll let you guys know it goes tonight...
uochronos on 09/16/2004 11:17:35
agreed stratus i always suggest the tweeter go within a foot of the mid. i had mine mounted about a foot and a half from the mid at ear level for a long time, and thought it sounded great til i moved it it now sits about 3 inches from the mid and sound way better.
Chronos
swez on 09/16/2004 21:21:33
There is room for experimentation on tweeter locations. Mostly, it's trial and error testing. The main thing about tweeters, is that they are on the same verticle plane as the mids. If we go off on extreme angles, cancellation issues between mid and tweet can become an issue and we lose some of the audio content by these cancellations.
Also, many new tweet designs are eyball/socket types that allow some degree of aiming. The polar dispersion patterns on quality tweeters are in the 30-40 degree range. Lows quality tweets are often very directional and have low polar dispersion characteristics. They "beam" high intensity audio in a narrow path of under 20 degrees. Once you get off axis of the tweeter pattern, tweeter audio energy is reduced substancially.
In English.... think of a water spray nozzle. (the kind you can adjust from a norrow stream to a wide spray pattern) Better tweeters tend to have a wider spray pattern to them. Other designs tend to act more like a high pressure stream. The wide pattern design offers more coverage area and less hot spots in the listening area. If you have a wide beam pattern, mounting is much more flexible.
The narrow beam tweeters are very intense and offer very narrow sweet spots. These are harder to position and still remain in the sweet spot. Best aimed above the listeners head with a focal point near the dome light or mid-cabin of the vehicle.
Hope that helps more than confuses,
Swez
Daniel on 09/16/2004 23:27:38
Big problem... The speakers sound great. However, the subs are not going much at all. The amp is getting adequete current but for some reason, the subs aren't moving much. I've turned the suboutput up to +15, the gain is set to max on the amp, the crossover is off. I see the subs moving, but they aren't making much sound at all. I also have to turn the head unit up to around 20 before the subs move a decent amount. What could this be? Box leak? Defective outputs? Defective amp?
uochronos on 09/17/2004 00:03:28
subs moving but no or little sound? sounds like you could be out of phase? what is this you ask? why glad you asked. anyway being out of phase means one sub is hooked up corectly + to + on amp and - to - on amp. and the other sub is hooked up + to - on amp and -to + on amp. this makes one sub move in exactly when the other moves out. cause cancelation making little to no sound.
if everything is hooked up right and your getting good power flow i would think this is a likly cause.
hope this helps.
Chronos
Daniel on 09/17/2004 01:03:55
Damn, I can't believe I overlooked something as small as that. Thanks uochronos. First time I've ever heard out of phase subs..
Daniel on 09/17/2004 01:07:02
The install is complete! Thank you everyone... The system sounds great untuned. Now I have to fine tune it.
uochronos on 09/17/2004 01:19:23
ya i said the same thing after my friend instaleld my first set of subs... i belive it was swez here who told me that about a year & 1/2 ago. hehe never would have looked at that myself. and it was anoying as hell the subs not making hardly any sound.
anyway glad i could help and good to hear it sounds good. enjoy the sounds of your labor.
Chronos
2 Alpine 1021-D dual 2ohm Type R 10"
Alpine Type-X 5.25 Components
QLogic QLH10D75 .75 sealed box
Alpine MRV-T320 amp
Alpine MRD-M500 amp
Alpine 9833 head unit
My goals are just SQ, don't really care about loudness at all. Will these parts work for SQ? I'm not an Alpine fanatic, I just happened across some parts. Are QLogic boxes well made? Is the .75 (each) a good size box? Is sealed the way to go for sound quality? Is the MRDM500 enough to power both subs to a decent sound level? Will I need to upgrade my Accord's electrical system for this setup? What voltage am I running at, 14.4 or 12? Alpine lists different specs for each voltage. And last but not least, should I stick with the Alpine head unit or should I go with the Pioneer Premier 8600, same price. Oh, last but not least, is there a guide on mounting subs in boxes or is it just put it in and screw it down.
Sorry for having so many questions but it seems you guys are very knowledgeable and this is the best place to find info. Thank you very much in advance.
Replies (50)
ttocs on 09/3/2004 20:27:33
the only problem I would see is the deck install. I have not seen the '04s but I know they have been integrating the heater ac controls in past models. Should sound perty good and your electrical system should be ok.
Daniel on 09/3/2004 21:31:34
Thank you for the reply. Any information on mounting the subs in the box?
Anyone out in North Carolina? I'll gladly pay one of you guys instead of Circuit City.
uochronos on 09/4/2004 03:55:42
pretty much for mounting just screw sub to box.. i use a specific type of screw that is guarenteed not to break or work its way out. but any wood screw well work pretty much.
q logic makes good boxs. just make sure those subs are supposed to be in that size box... i have a set of the same subs and i belive that is the rigth size. but not 100% sure
you car runs at somewhere between 12-14 volt something like 13.8 usualy... 14.4 if pretty much the max a car can put out. thats why most reputable companies list a 12volt and a 14 volt wattage.
as for the head unit. i personaly love pioneer premier head units they are wonderfull. but alpine is no slouch at all. i say install the alpine if you like it keep it. if not then look into upgrading..
as whats the best box for SQ most people agree a sealed enclosure can get the best SQ response. although an extremly well designed ported box can as well. but a sealed is much simler and well net great sq.
also i wouldnt suggest having circuit city or best buy install it they have a couple good senoir installers and a bunch of fresh meat usualy and chances are your car can be used as a teaching instrument. i would suggest a reputable car stereo shop. look in the phone book should be at least a couple in your area.
also if you feel like it and want to save a few hundred dollars we can walk you threw installing it yourself. which takes awhile but saves alot of money.
well good luck
Chronos
Daniel on 09/4/2004 12:12:01
Thanks, I'll keep you guys updated.
Daniel on 09/4/2004 15:57:25
Question re: wiring subs
Am I doing it right for a 2ohm load to the amp for 2 2ohm DVC subs if I'm:
1. Hooking the the positive of one voice coil to the box
2. Hooking the negative of the OTHER voice coil to the box
3. Hooking the leftover negative of one voice coil to the positive of the other voice coil
4. Connecting the positive and positive of the two subs together outside the box, and connecting the negative and negative of the two subs outside the box?
Also, is 16 gauge speaker wire OK for the subs to use? Very short distance. If yes, then why when we're using 4gauge for the power? (just getting a little technical there)
Sorry, one more. I'm only planning to drive my rear fill with the head unit, is it still necessary to give it a direct connection to the battery? (VDrive amplifier)
swez on 09/4/2004 21:32:57
Should be a good SQ system when completed and installed properly. Quality HU, amps and speakers... good choices.
As for sub mounting, just pre-drill your holes into the box face. Use a 1/8" pilot hole here and #10 x 1" sheet metal screws. Four per sub is usually enough, but you can go all holes too.
The best way to wire a pair of DVC (2+2) in separate boxes is each box has a 4 ohm load. That means both coils are in series, 2+2 =4 ohms net per box. Here's a diagram to use:
+Amp..........+VC1-.......+VC2-........Amp - Sub #1
+Amp..........+VC1-.......+VC2-........Amp - Sub #2
This will give the amp a perfect match.. 2 ohms net load.
Wire gage for this much power, use #12 gage wires from amp to each sub. There's ~250 watts to each sub this way. (#16 is a bit small for this much power)
Using a V-Drive Alpine, it is recommended to use #10 gage power line from the battery. The HU has a lot more power amping ability than most common aftermarket models. (26 watts RMS/ch here) Plenty enough to drive rear speakers to adequate SPL levels for rear fill.
The MRV-T320 is 50 x 2 watts RMS @12.0 volts and 80 watts x2 at 14.4 volts input. Safe to say, ~60 watts RMS per channel is nominal power. Good for the front speakers.
If you want to save some money, have good skills working with your hands and a little extra time on the weekends, you can install much of this gear on your own. Having the HU installed by a good shop (not CC or BB) is a good idea. Just ask them to run all RCA lines and REM to the amp location you choose. Will only need 2 sets of RCA lines here. One set for 2 channel amp, the other for subs. That will save a lot of time and extra aggravation on your part of the install. Can even ask them to connect stock factory wiring from HU to rear channel speakers too. This way, you won't have to remove the HU to do the rest of the install.
We can walk you through the rest if you are willing to learn and have a "little frustration" to build character. If you are good with hands and tools, YOU CAN DO THE REST and save a small fortune. However, if you don't have any mechanical apptitude, call on a buddy who does to help out. Hopefully, someone who has done this kind of work before.
what say you?
Swez
Daniel on 09/4/2004 22:50:07
Definitely willing to do it myself and learn, but I have no idea where to start. The only experience I've ever had is installing a head unit in my other car. I also don't want to ruin anything or invest a large amount in tools I won't be using afterwards.
I was considering just doing the head unit and sub install and letting a shop do the amp and component speaker. That gets rid of the wiring difficulty part but if it's easy, then I'd like to do it all myself.
swez on 09/5/2004 09:29:25
According to ttocs, our chief install guru, the HU phase of the install may be the most tricky part of the job. I would heed that warning and let a shop do that phase of the install. Does your factory HU have a factory MX radio system installed? If yes, you will lose that feature if you switch to an aftermarket design.
The rest is pretty straight forward if the door panel speakers will accept 5.25" drivers w/o too much modification or metal cutting. Crutchfield shows the front doors use 5.25" speakers and the rear deck are 6x9's. That should not be too much trouble to install, once the door panels are removed.
As for amp, wiring and misc wiring... the hardest part is hiding the wires well and getting the main power feed line through the firewall to the BAT. Other that that, the rest is pretty simple... but may not be easy.
Swez
Daniel on 09/5/2004 11:56:27
Is this head unit different from others? I thought it was a matter of disconnecting the OEM head unit, hooking up a harness, and splicing it with the Alpine. I think I'm going to leave the original unit, and just use the adapter to fit the head unit in the cd tray below the controls. Is it any different, except for the VDrive?
The fronts have 6.5s, I think. I bought the smaller ones so they could fit easier because I heard the 6.5s were too big. I also have a set of 6.5 - 5.25 adapters. Where would you place the tweeter for ease of install + decent imaging?
Also, the firewall part is the most intimidating part. Which is the best place to fish a 4 gauge through? Should I also use polyfill for the box?
ttocs on 09/5/2004 12:19:33
if it is the deck that I remember, they have integrated the heater ac controls into the face of the radio. Remove the radio, and you remove the climate controls as well. Do you have a pic of it?
Daniel on 09/5/2004 12:37:14
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/561000-561999/561772_78_full.jpg
ttocs, there isn't a normal harness behind all that? A seperate AC control and a seperate audio control? My model doesn't have the XM or the steering wheel monted control.
I haven't opened anything yet as I just ordered the rest of the parts last Friday. As of now, I have the speakers, amps, and box. Waiting on the subs, head unit, and 4gauge wiring kit. Still need to order the radio mount and harness. Do you recommend just getting the dash kit/harness from Crutchfield and getting their install sheet along with it?
ttocs on 09/5/2004 16:28:46
that was the deck that I was expecting(watch that little screw behind the clock!). The problem is not so much the wiring(I'll mention later), as the fact that the deck, and climate controls are housed in one piece. I am not sure if there is a kit for that car or not, you better check into it 1rst. Most owners like the deck so much they do not want to pull it, so I have never taken one out.
The one that I specifically remember we put a sub and amp on the factory deck. There was ALOT of noise and after repeated attempts to move grounds, rca, input source we were still scratching our heads.
Daniel on 09/5/2004 18:24:04
I think I'm just going to leave the factory deck and just mount the kit below it. It's either 30 for the kit that mounts below it or around $150 for the factory looking kit.
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2004/120/x120997864-f.jpeg
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kJa5bTyKhQD/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=11&g=112200&I=120997862&o=p&a=1&cc=01&avf=Y&search=
swez on 09/5/2004 18:51:42
That kit makes sense and you will still have the stock HU in place and all climate control features too.
That kit shown looks like a 1 din HU will fit just nice. All you have to do is connect power wires and speaker outs to rear channel speakers. Then run your RCA lines back to amps and front speaker lines up to front speakers...Viola. According to Crutchfield, the front speakers are 5.25". The rear deck are 6x9's.
That V-drive HU does need a #10 wire from the battery. Anything less and you run the risk of melted power wires. Also, since you have 2 other amps, a #4 power line from BAT to amps is best. Ttocks can make a good suggestion on where to route your power line through the firewall. (Probably a clutch wire knock out near the brake peddle)
Once the power line is fed in, use a grommet to protect the wire from chaffing to bare metal and run your power line down the driver's side carpet trim rail to trunk. (another hole perhaps here too)
Then run your RCA's and REM lines down the Passenger's side trim rail and into trunk. The only thing left is running your front speaker lines back up to the doors. Ttocks... which is best...
1. Run amped speaker lines bundled with power line?
2. Run amped speaker lines bundled to RCA's?
3. Rum amped speaker lines elswhere? (Where is best choice?)
Swez
Daniel on 09/5/2004 20:04:56
Ok, I placed the order for that kit. Looks like I'm set to install it. I'll see what Ttocs says and go from there. Thank you guys very much.
Where should the tweeter go? Ear level next to handle or next to the door enclosure?
ttocs on 09/5/2004 22:01:03
As I said I have not put a deck into one of these so I was not aware of what was available. I would go below it as well rather then replace. Was that pic of you taking the deck out?
If you are going to run the deck wire to the battery, I would just make it simple and run the decks remote turn on, as well as pwr and ground for the deck, back to the amp. This will allow all of the decks and amps pwr connections to be at the exact same place, reducing noise problems and loops, while running a wire you were going to have to do anyway.
Daniel on 09/5/2004 22:19:13
And the speaker wire from amp to components? Power or RCA side?
Also, where to breach firewall?
Thanks in advance.
UKinstaller on 09/5/2004 22:52:08
i assisted in the installation of an in-dash dvd/monitor in an 04 accord, and i'ma be honest, it SUCKED. it was very hard to take apart. however, the kit looked excellent, it was the kit that replaced all of the climate controls and so forth, it looked factory after the installation. a LOT of care must be taken when taking out the factory radio. are you doing it yourself or having a shop do it?
-UK
Daniel on 09/5/2004 23:40:17
I just got it out for fun earlier today even though I don't have the headunit yet. It was fairly easy. I'm not planning to use the factory look kit because it's another $150. Maybe later on. I just followed these directions:
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/561772/3
ttocs on 09/6/2004 11:46:48
I would keep signal on one side and pwr on the other as usual. As for the firewall there should be grommet on the drivers side(i think drvrs). pop the hood and look in the engine(preferable on what ever side the bat is on) and see where the factory wires go through. If there is an extra grommet, use it. If there is no extra grommet, then try using a flashlight and look at the firewall from the inside. If you still do not see anyplace empty, see if you can run it with the factory wires. IF that is not an option, then repeat this on the pass side. Final option is to look for a place to drill.
Hey UK, how long did it take to find the screw under the clock? 1rst one I did I am amazed I did not break it.....
UKinstaller on 09/6/2004 21:09:33
i couldn't find it. i felt a lot of pressure when trying to pop it off, but i was afraid i was going to break it. i didn't think there was a screw under there. i showed it to the lead installer at the CC i work at and it took him about 5 minutes to find it.
isn't it amazing how good that kit looks though?? it looks stock. did yours look pretty good??
-UK
ttocs on 09/7/2004 15:56:20
I almost had my feett on the dash next to it to help me pull it off before I realized there had to be something there.
And for those of you that don't know. The clock on these cars looks like there is no way to take it out. You have to carefully pry it out to reveal a screw under it......
ttocs on 09/7/2004 22:57:03
ttt
swez on 09/8/2004 09:34:26
Bump ^
Daniel on 09/8/2004 10:27:12
ttocs and UKinstaller, Are you talking about the radio display or the entire unit? I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I don't see any clock except for the one that's integrated into that big unit.
My mounting kit is arriving tomorrow, let me know if you guys wanted any specific pics taken while I put it in.. The rest of the items (subs, head unit, and wiring kit) arrive on Saturday.
ttocs on 09/8/2004 14:48:57
the clock should be between the two airvents. Have you taken the radio out yet?
Daniel on 09/8/2004 14:54:04
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/561000-561999/561772_74_full.jpg
That's how mine looks. However, it has a passenger airbag off indicator, but no clock. I've taken the dash apart, still waiting on the parts to come in.
Daniel on 09/8/2004 22:05:04
Guys, should I put polyfill in the box? If yes, how much? Wondering about the 20oz pack or the 8oz pack.
ttocs on 09/8/2004 23:10:09
sorry, that was not the one that I was thinking of.
Daniel on 09/9/2004 01:45:52
http://www.hondacars.com/images/banners/2005/accord_sedan/interior_gallery/large2.jpg
You're probably talking about the EX interior.
swez on 09/9/2004 09:01:09
On polyfill, about 12-16 Oz per sub chamber, when using 12" subs. A little less for 10's, a bit more for 15's.
Swez
Daniel on 09/9/2004 20:15:28
Swez, is it necessary or good for a box of this size? Recommended size is .65 per chamber and it's at .75 as of now.
Also, I read your grounding article. Should I go through the trouble of grounding the head unit with the amps in the back or is it OK to just ground it nearby. How common is ground loop noise? Thanks.
P0werLifter on 09/9/2004 23:05:05
As far as using the polyfill for your box..its not necessary but id go ahead and put some in to help with the resonant frequency of he box,. You dont have to..but Id reccomend it.
As far as grounding your HU. You should be fine with grounding it to the car body at that point, but after that, ground everything else to a single point on the car body, or the chassis to avoid ground loops. Depending on how many amplifiers, Eqs, ETC groundloops become a problem rather quickly. But for right now, you should be just fine.
-Jason
swez on 09/10/2004 09:46:56
I use polyfill on all my enclosure designs. Why? I helps dampen rear bass waves inside the box and muffle box/enclosure resonance noises.
Doing a lot of Professional and commercial audio installs of late. All the enclosures we have installed are all filled with acoustical dampening materials of one kind or another. If this is what Pro gear uses... there must be a good reason and I follow that reasoning as well.
About grounding, the only product I would consider ground at the amps are the V-Drive Alpine HU's. These are the HU's that offer 25-27 watts RMS/channel. The #10 gage wiring for power and ground would be a good option to run off the same power/gnd source as amps to prevent most ground loop and engine noise issues.
Swez
Daniel on 09/10/2004 10:21:26
Thanks P0werLifter, congrats on your gold. Thanks Swez.
I'm excited as my gear is coming in tomorrow, according to FedEx.
I was worried about the heat dissipation for the subs in a sealed box with polyfiil. I understand a ported box because it lets air flow out but inside a sealed box, it seems as if it would act as insulation, further warming the sub. I've never heard of it so I might be wrong, but is it a valid concern?
P0werLifter on 09/10/2004 13:22:21
Thanks Daniel, I bet your excited for tomorrow =) i know im allways chomping at the bit waiting for FedEx or UPS to get here with my goodies
As for the concern about heat dissapation. Dont worry about that as in a sealed enclosure the subwoofer has enough air movement from the cone as its in motion to keep the airflow moving around inside the enclosure cooling off the voice coils.
-Jason
Daniel on 09/10/2004 14:34:23
Sounds good, although they delayed it until the 15th. (Wednesday) :(
Daniel on 09/16/2004 00:12:12
Woohoo! The stuff came in today. However, after mounting the sub, I push down onto the cone, and I hear a slight air noise from the top left of the enclosure. The right sub doesn't do that. Should I unmount the subs and return the box because it's leaky? Or is it normal.. Also, if it were slightly leaky, would that degrade sound quality much? I also read somewhere that when I push down on the cone, it should return slowly. It seems to return fairly quickly (both).
I mounted them by just drilling a small hole and screwing it down. Did I do it correctly? No point in paying the store $45 to have them screw something down.
uochronos on 09/16/2004 00:22:25
sounds like you did it right. as for the leaky one i would just silicone it myself cost maybe 3$ and then let it dry over night before remounting sub.
as for returning slowly after pressing down. they should return fiarly slowly. it wont be extrmly slow but well be alot slower then if it was out of the box..
Chronos
swez on 09/16/2004 07:10:43
Yes, do seal the box with silicone, Liquid Nails or Latex caulking materials. Just run a 1/4" bead around each joint in the box and also around the wire termination cup. This should seal up all the major air leaks for you. Just let the adhesive cure overnight, then reinstall the subs the next day.
Since the subs are new, they will be stiff for a few hours until break in period is over. (usually 10-12 hours of use) When a sealed enclosure is very well sealed from sir leaks, the cones will return to normal rest position in a few seconds. If there are many air leaks, the cones will come back to rest point almost immediately.
Swez
ttocs on 09/16/2004 08:17:17
the box could be leaking, or the sub may not be mounted tight enough. If it is the sub, there is some foam tape you cam put on the back of the spkr to help it seal, available at any hardware store..
STRATUS225 on 09/16/2004 10:04:08
Just a small note after all of the install conversation. Daniel, you asked a couple of times where the tweeter should go and nobody has given you an answer to this question. My own experience tells me for best imaging place the tweeter no more than about a foot away from the mid driver. Any thoughts on this Golds?
Daniel on 09/16/2004 10:56:27
Thanks.. getting to work on it right now. I'm just going to mount it at ear level, next to the door handle. It has a decent amount of space there and the Type X's have the phase correction built into the x-over. I'll let you guys know it goes tonight...
uochronos on 09/16/2004 11:17:35
agreed stratus i always suggest the tweeter go within a foot of the mid. i had mine mounted about a foot and a half from the mid at ear level for a long time, and thought it sounded great til i moved it it now sits about 3 inches from the mid and sound way better.
Chronos
swez on 09/16/2004 21:21:33
There is room for experimentation on tweeter locations. Mostly, it's trial and error testing. The main thing about tweeters, is that they are on the same verticle plane as the mids. If we go off on extreme angles, cancellation issues between mid and tweet can become an issue and we lose some of the audio content by these cancellations.
Also, many new tweet designs are eyball/socket types that allow some degree of aiming. The polar dispersion patterns on quality tweeters are in the 30-40 degree range. Lows quality tweets are often very directional and have low polar dispersion characteristics. They "beam" high intensity audio in a narrow path of under 20 degrees. Once you get off axis of the tweeter pattern, tweeter audio energy is reduced substancially.
In English.... think of a water spray nozzle. (the kind you can adjust from a norrow stream to a wide spray pattern) Better tweeters tend to have a wider spray pattern to them. Other designs tend to act more like a high pressure stream. The wide pattern design offers more coverage area and less hot spots in the listening area. If you have a wide beam pattern, mounting is much more flexible.
The narrow beam tweeters are very intense and offer very narrow sweet spots. These are harder to position and still remain in the sweet spot. Best aimed above the listeners head with a focal point near the dome light or mid-cabin of the vehicle.
Hope that helps more than confuses,
Swez
Daniel on 09/16/2004 23:27:38
Big problem... The speakers sound great. However, the subs are not going much at all. The amp is getting adequete current but for some reason, the subs aren't moving much. I've turned the suboutput up to +15, the gain is set to max on the amp, the crossover is off. I see the subs moving, but they aren't making much sound at all. I also have to turn the head unit up to around 20 before the subs move a decent amount. What could this be? Box leak? Defective outputs? Defective amp?
uochronos on 09/17/2004 00:03:28
subs moving but no or little sound? sounds like you could be out of phase? what is this you ask? why glad you asked. anyway being out of phase means one sub is hooked up corectly + to + on amp and - to - on amp. and the other sub is hooked up + to - on amp and -to + on amp. this makes one sub move in exactly when the other moves out. cause cancelation making little to no sound.
if everything is hooked up right and your getting good power flow i would think this is a likly cause.
hope this helps.
Chronos
Daniel on 09/17/2004 01:03:55
Damn, I can't believe I overlooked something as small as that. Thanks uochronos. First time I've ever heard out of phase subs..
Daniel on 09/17/2004 01:07:02
The install is complete! Thank you everyone... The system sounds great untuned. Now I have to fine tune it.
uochronos on 09/17/2004 01:19:23
ya i said the same thing after my friend instaleld my first set of subs... i belive it was swez here who told me that about a year & 1/2 ago. hehe never would have looked at that myself. and it was anoying as hell the subs not making hardly any sound.
anyway glad i could help and good to hear it sounds good. enjoy the sounds of your labor.
Chronos
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