Okay, so far i've came up with this setup:
front speakers:
Infinity KAPPA462.5CFP 4"x6" RMS:60W Peak:180W
rear speakers:
Infinity KAPPA692.5I 6"x9" RMS:110W Peak:330W
the 4 speakers powered by:
Lightning Audio B.300.4 50Wx4
subwoofers:
2x Shiva Mark IV 12"
subwoofers powered by:
JL Audio 500-1 amp
500 W RMS @ 1.5 ohm-4 ohm (11V-14.5V)
What do you think of this setup? Any suggestions or improvements?
Also, about how much amp will this use? My alternator has 105A, would I need to upgrade anything?
Replies (20)
ttocs on 08/19/2004 01:27:07
Infinity is not a bad speaker, but they are a little rich on the tweeters for my ears. JL amps, you can't get much better IMO....
P0werLifter on 08/19/2004 01:39:56
Sounds like a solid setup you have there, Id reccomend getting a 140amp alt sooner or later just to be on the safe side. 500w+200w=700w (RMS)....Total Wattage of your system divided by your cars electricals (12 Volt) will give you the amperage draw from just your system. Tack on another 60A to show you the size of an Alt you should have to run it. Figure RMS your system will be running 700w....700/12= 58amper load for just your system,,, 58amp+60 for stock electricals >118amp draw on that 105amp alt (and thats not cranked) You might get by with a High CCA battery for now but i would reccomend getting a 140amp alternator just to solve your problems b4 they start.
Lets see....am I 4gettting anything?
-Jason
swez on 08/19/2004 07:29:52
Nope, think you covered it all pretty well. A larger battery (900 CCA) might do the trick for more reserve power to the sub amp. However, if you still note light dimming, an ALT upgrade is in order.
Can also try using #4 gage wiring between ALT/BAT & BAT/GND and add a 2nd grounding strap between block and body.
Nice system ya have there!
Swez
sounds on 08/19/2004 12:19:13
Where could I purchase a 140amp alternator online? I have a 650 CCA battery in my car currently, If I upgrade the alternator would I need to upgrade the battery?
Also, what gage power wire would I need for this setup?
P0werLifter on 08/19/2004 13:52:33
You can purchase 140amp Alternators on ebay, summit racing, etc. You can also get ahold of an alternator shop in your town or general area and ask how much they would charge you to rewind your stock alt to 140amp (This is a very viable option due to the cost being usually cheaper than buying a new one).
As for as a the battery, you might want to upgrade it to a 990CCA+ Battery. Also as Swez has stated, upgrade your power wire from Alt-Bat to 4guage, Bat-Grnd to 4 guage, and same with adding a second grounding strap between your engine and the frame.
As far as wiring goes, i suggest going with 4 guage(handling capability-132 amps 1096 watts) wiring back to your amplifiers. Make sure you ground everything to a solid clean metal surface on the cars body or chassis.
Hope this helps,
Jason
sounds on 08/19/2004 22:08:06
thanks for all the help so far!
Got two questions right now.
First one is what is the RMS of the shiva mark IV? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Second one.... does the JL amp pushes more than 500 W? what i mean is if it's hooked up as a 4ohm it pushes 500, does it push 500 at 2ohms?
uochronos on 08/19/2004 22:38:30
jl amps from my understanding push the same amount of power at all acceptable ohmage and voltage. its regulated so you get constant power.... that is at least how it was explained to me.
sounds on 08/20/2004 01:47:28
was wondering which would be a better choice? JL Audio 12W3v2 12" or the Shiva Mark IV?
and is the jbl bp600.1 a good amp?
uochronos on 08/20/2004 01:58:43
both are very good drivers... the JL is a great SQ sub and no slouch in the spl area. the nice thing about this is you know a JL sub is going to last if you treat it right because of how well used and researched they are.
the adire shiva is no slouch either it can handle up to 600watts thermaly and well pound out the bass with good quality. they also reasearch stuff evry well. however they arent as well known or big of a brand.
i would say this one comes down to the price you are will to pay if you have the money to buy the JL sub and dont mind spending it then go with that. if you want a great sub for onyl 125$ though get the shiva...
the reason they dont list an rms for the shiva is it matters what box the sub is in to how much power it can take. in a large box 200watts could get you full xmax. in a smaller enclosure closer to 500 would be needed. they well gladly help you with this is you email them,
as for the JL amp vs the JBL amp that is tough as well. i check the JL amp puts out 500watts at 1.5-4ohm and make it extremly versitile. the jbl well put out 100-150watts rms more but isnt as versitile. for instance you can use just about any sub with the JL amp and get full power however with the JBL you must get a 2ohm load tog et full power.. personaly again if i had the money i would go with the JL amp but if money is a thought the JBL well work very well.
swez on 08/20/2004 11:29:46
If you have a pair of Shiva's already, the JBL 600.1 is a good match for these subs. By wiring both subs full parallel, we get the magic 2 ohms. Perfect load for JBL mono amps.
Would the JL's sound better than the Shiva's? I don't think you would hear a major difference if the enclosure was well matched to Adire specs... 1.0 - 1.25 cf per sub, sealed = VERY GOOD BASS.
Also, a single JL 12W6v2 will handle all the power the 600.1 will put out. No need for buying 2 JL's here. If you go ported, this will give you maximum performance from either sub brand. Can set your port tuning to 35 Hz and may not even need a subsonic filter here.
Swez
sounds on 08/20/2004 13:43:15
man I can't decide what I want to get
What I want is good deep punchy bass. Which probably means I'll go for a sealed box. I want like 75% SQ / 25% SPL.
I like the idea of having two subwoofers, I've never seen or listen to a Shiva sub, but I've heard good things about it. It doesn't really matter to me if it's not a well-known name as long as it performs really well.
The JL 12W6V2 sub sounds like a really good one.
I think I want a JBL BP600.1 since it's cheaper but still a good amp.
the 12W6V2 is rated at 400RMS... so if I use a 600W amp, is there a chance i'll blow the sub because of too much power?
Which brand would fit my needs better (punchy) but i want it to be a good system
P0werLifter on 08/20/2004 14:49:28
If it were me, id probly stick with the shiva's just because they are a fanstastic driver (subwoofer) for the price they are. W3's are good but a lil pricier. As far as the JLW6V2...if you got that it would sound good also, but this is a used subwoofer, and depending on how hard it was pushed....im kind of leary purchasing used drivers because you dont know what your getting.
Now as far as your question goes? If you did purcahse the JBL 600.1 for just a single W6.....you wouldnt have any problems running that subwith 600watts. You could turn down the gain a smidge on the amplifier to lower the overal output but as long as the subwoofer is in good condition, and is getting good CLEAN power, not clipped, You would be perfectly fine with that.
Hope that helps =)
Jason
swez on 08/20/2004 18:14:39
Since you like punch and low bass, dual subs are a good way to go. That's a vote for the Shiva's. You can build a dual chamber enclosure here and one sub in a 0.85 cf chamber (for PUNCH) and the other chamber at 1.25 cf for deep bass. It's like having a 2 stage subwoofer design often emlpoyed in Pro Audio.
Have often used dual 10's for punch bass and a pair of 15's for the deep lows when I was a bassist years ago. The same applies here, but by manipulating the internal air space, we get different bass responses all in 1 box. This type of approach will give you the best of both worlds.
This could be a very cool project for you and many can learn from your work.
Swez
sounds on 08/20/2004 21:50:51
swez, that sounds like a good idea. I wouldn't mind trying that out. Will the different bass still sound good together? because I've never heard of anything like this.
Would it work if I had two seperate boxes? The reason for this is that I don't have access to power tools so I won't be able to construct an effective box. Or could I get one custom-made online?
Dual chamber enclosure means one sealed and one ported right?
swez on 08/21/2004 09:34:22
Dual chamber meaning 2 distinct enclosures. Yes, they can be all in one larger box or 2 separate boxes. Either way is fine. Also, yes... you can use sealed on the small chamber and ported on the larger chamber. Just more design work to figure out proper port dimensions and overall size of that chamber.
Yes, this concept will work and sound good too. Just blending two different bass response concepts into one application. We see this idea applied in 4-way HT/stereo speaker applications all the time. (Ie: Subwoofer, Midbass, midrange & tweeter)
Will you find this design off the shelf? Nope... totally custom to your needs here. Yes, you can buy 2 separate boxes... but they will be of different proportions and may look odd too. Am sure one of our CAD guys here and make you a drawing that you can take to someone that builds custom enclosures. It might not be cheap though. I would not do it for less than $200.00 personally. But a $10.00/hr. guy that knows his stuff, could do if for less.
Swez
LC1 on 08/22/2004 00:56:06
If you would like I could make up some drawings on my CAD program if you like. I am a mechanical engineering student and for me to draw up a box would be no problem. Here is the CAD designed box that I designed/constructed for my 12" Alpine TypeR------> http://www.pbase.com/lc1/vented_enclosure.
Let me know on here if you would like to me make you one. I don't mind helping you out if you don't have access to any CAD programs.
Talk to you later,
Jay
sounds on 08/22/2004 11:03:55
that would be great if you could make up some drawings for me. I don't have any experience with CAD. For the dual enclosured box, I would like to use 5/8" MDF and the height of the box would be 14" or 14 1/2" and the width 36" can be smaller than that if necessary. One side .85 cf and the other 1.25 cf like swez mentioned.
Another question once again, Should I use a 4ga power wire and then have a distribution block to split the 4ga into 2 8ga to wire to both of the amps? 12 gauge speaker wires to wire the speakers as well?
swez on 08/22/2004 11:59:04
4 gage to D-block, split 1x#8 to 4 channel and if you go with the JBL 600.1, use a #4 wire here too. Your D-block should have 2 x #4's and 1 x #8. If the block has a 3-4 #4 holes and lockdown screws, can use #8 in a #4 hole just fine. Just make a hook in the #8 wire and stuff it in there.
Speakers: #14-16 gage is fine for car speakers. For your subs, use #12 in the box and to the amp.
Wood choice: Go with 3/4" MDF on sub enclosure. Will need the rigidity and less internal braces than if you go 5/8" MDF. The 5/8" is hard to hit centers with #8 x 1.5" screws.
The box you want, will need to be 2.15 cf (internally), plus the divider panel and sub displacements. There is a tolerance factor of +/- 10% either side of that 2.15 cf. (3715 in^3)
If the max box height is 14.5" and 36" is max width, then depth will be the only variable here.That comes out to ~10.75" for depth. That nets 2.4 cf internally. (~4149 in^3)
Sub displacement for Shiva is: 183 in^3 per sub (366 in^3/pr.)
The divider panel will be roughly: 120 in^3
Total displacements = ~486 in^3 or 0.281 ft^3
This gives a rounded off net internal volume of 2.12 ft^3. Pretty darn close I'd say to the target 2.15 ft^3 mentioned. This is for both chambers to be sealed.
I like sealed here as when porting, the larger chamber will be notably larger and we'd have to configure a port that is tuned near 35 Hz. Great low end bump. But you will get a big bump in lows already from cabin gain effects. (~15-20 dB more, depending on the vehicle.
Besides, sealed boxes are so stable at any frequency you throw at them. Port tuned boxes can get very squirrly below PTF. (Port tuning freq) No need for a sub sonic filter on sealed boxes. PTF enclosures often need a SS filter. JBL amps do not have that filter. Would have to add a SS filter if ported... more costs.
Hope that helps there LC1. Think I have the calculations correct.. but feel free to double check my math. I do make mistakes too ya know...hehe
Swez
LC1 on 08/22/2004 14:57:20
sounds,
When were you looking to start getting the enclosure built? I won't be able to work on it until tomorrow or tuesday, is that ok?
And as swez mentioned, using 3/4" MDF would be better (more strenght) and it isn't that much more expensive for a 4 x 8 sheet.
Talk to you later,
Jay
PS Swez thanks for the calculations, the appear to look right but I will double check them.
sounds on 08/22/2004 18:00:11
yeah that's good, just take your time since i'm low on cash right now and won't be able to get it built for another two weeks or so. 3/4" MDF will work out well.
front speakers:
Infinity KAPPA462.5CFP 4"x6" RMS:60W Peak:180W
rear speakers:
Infinity KAPPA692.5I 6"x9" RMS:110W Peak:330W
the 4 speakers powered by:
Lightning Audio B.300.4 50Wx4
subwoofers:
2x Shiva Mark IV 12"
subwoofers powered by:
JL Audio 500-1 amp
500 W RMS @ 1.5 ohm-4 ohm (11V-14.5V)
What do you think of this setup? Any suggestions or improvements?
Also, about how much amp will this use? My alternator has 105A, would I need to upgrade anything?
Replies (20)
ttocs on 08/19/2004 01:27:07
Infinity is not a bad speaker, but they are a little rich on the tweeters for my ears. JL amps, you can't get much better IMO....
P0werLifter on 08/19/2004 01:39:56
Sounds like a solid setup you have there, Id reccomend getting a 140amp alt sooner or later just to be on the safe side. 500w+200w=700w (RMS)....Total Wattage of your system divided by your cars electricals (12 Volt) will give you the amperage draw from just your system. Tack on another 60A to show you the size of an Alt you should have to run it. Figure RMS your system will be running 700w....700/12= 58amper load for just your system,,, 58amp+60 for stock electricals >118amp draw on that 105amp alt (and thats not cranked) You might get by with a High CCA battery for now but i would reccomend getting a 140amp alternator just to solve your problems b4 they start.
Lets see....am I 4gettting anything?
-Jason
swez on 08/19/2004 07:29:52
Nope, think you covered it all pretty well. A larger battery (900 CCA) might do the trick for more reserve power to the sub amp. However, if you still note light dimming, an ALT upgrade is in order.
Can also try using #4 gage wiring between ALT/BAT & BAT/GND and add a 2nd grounding strap between block and body.
Nice system ya have there!
Swez
sounds on 08/19/2004 12:19:13
Where could I purchase a 140amp alternator online? I have a 650 CCA battery in my car currently, If I upgrade the alternator would I need to upgrade the battery?
Also, what gage power wire would I need for this setup?
P0werLifter on 08/19/2004 13:52:33
You can purchase 140amp Alternators on ebay, summit racing, etc. You can also get ahold of an alternator shop in your town or general area and ask how much they would charge you to rewind your stock alt to 140amp (This is a very viable option due to the cost being usually cheaper than buying a new one).
As for as a the battery, you might want to upgrade it to a 990CCA+ Battery. Also as Swez has stated, upgrade your power wire from Alt-Bat to 4guage, Bat-Grnd to 4 guage, and same with adding a second grounding strap between your engine and the frame.
As far as wiring goes, i suggest going with 4 guage(handling capability-132 amps 1096 watts) wiring back to your amplifiers. Make sure you ground everything to a solid clean metal surface on the cars body or chassis.
Hope this helps,
Jason
sounds on 08/19/2004 22:08:06
thanks for all the help so far!
Got two questions right now.
First one is what is the RMS of the shiva mark IV? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Second one.... does the JL amp pushes more than 500 W? what i mean is if it's hooked up as a 4ohm it pushes 500, does it push 500 at 2ohms?
uochronos on 08/19/2004 22:38:30
jl amps from my understanding push the same amount of power at all acceptable ohmage and voltage. its regulated so you get constant power.... that is at least how it was explained to me.
sounds on 08/20/2004 01:47:28
was wondering which would be a better choice? JL Audio 12W3v2 12" or the Shiva Mark IV?
and is the jbl bp600.1 a good amp?
uochronos on 08/20/2004 01:58:43
both are very good drivers... the JL is a great SQ sub and no slouch in the spl area. the nice thing about this is you know a JL sub is going to last if you treat it right because of how well used and researched they are.
the adire shiva is no slouch either it can handle up to 600watts thermaly and well pound out the bass with good quality. they also reasearch stuff evry well. however they arent as well known or big of a brand.
i would say this one comes down to the price you are will to pay if you have the money to buy the JL sub and dont mind spending it then go with that. if you want a great sub for onyl 125$ though get the shiva...
the reason they dont list an rms for the shiva is it matters what box the sub is in to how much power it can take. in a large box 200watts could get you full xmax. in a smaller enclosure closer to 500 would be needed. they well gladly help you with this is you email them,
as for the JL amp vs the JBL amp that is tough as well. i check the JL amp puts out 500watts at 1.5-4ohm and make it extremly versitile. the jbl well put out 100-150watts rms more but isnt as versitile. for instance you can use just about any sub with the JL amp and get full power however with the JBL you must get a 2ohm load tog et full power.. personaly again if i had the money i would go with the JL amp but if money is a thought the JBL well work very well.
swez on 08/20/2004 11:29:46
If you have a pair of Shiva's already, the JBL 600.1 is a good match for these subs. By wiring both subs full parallel, we get the magic 2 ohms. Perfect load for JBL mono amps.
Would the JL's sound better than the Shiva's? I don't think you would hear a major difference if the enclosure was well matched to Adire specs... 1.0 - 1.25 cf per sub, sealed = VERY GOOD BASS.
Also, a single JL 12W6v2 will handle all the power the 600.1 will put out. No need for buying 2 JL's here. If you go ported, this will give you maximum performance from either sub brand. Can set your port tuning to 35 Hz and may not even need a subsonic filter here.
Swez
sounds on 08/20/2004 13:43:15
man I can't decide what I want to get
What I want is good deep punchy bass. Which probably means I'll go for a sealed box. I want like 75% SQ / 25% SPL.
I like the idea of having two subwoofers, I've never seen or listen to a Shiva sub, but I've heard good things about it. It doesn't really matter to me if it's not a well-known name as long as it performs really well.
The JL 12W6V2 sub sounds like a really good one.
I think I want a JBL BP600.1 since it's cheaper but still a good amp.
the 12W6V2 is rated at 400RMS... so if I use a 600W amp, is there a chance i'll blow the sub because of too much power?
Which brand would fit my needs better (punchy) but i want it to be a good system
P0werLifter on 08/20/2004 14:49:28
If it were me, id probly stick with the shiva's just because they are a fanstastic driver (subwoofer) for the price they are. W3's are good but a lil pricier. As far as the JLW6V2...if you got that it would sound good also, but this is a used subwoofer, and depending on how hard it was pushed....im kind of leary purchasing used drivers because you dont know what your getting.
Now as far as your question goes? If you did purcahse the JBL 600.1 for just a single W6.....you wouldnt have any problems running that subwith 600watts. You could turn down the gain a smidge on the amplifier to lower the overal output but as long as the subwoofer is in good condition, and is getting good CLEAN power, not clipped, You would be perfectly fine with that.
Hope that helps =)
Jason
swez on 08/20/2004 18:14:39
Since you like punch and low bass, dual subs are a good way to go. That's a vote for the Shiva's. You can build a dual chamber enclosure here and one sub in a 0.85 cf chamber (for PUNCH) and the other chamber at 1.25 cf for deep bass. It's like having a 2 stage subwoofer design often emlpoyed in Pro Audio.
Have often used dual 10's for punch bass and a pair of 15's for the deep lows when I was a bassist years ago. The same applies here, but by manipulating the internal air space, we get different bass responses all in 1 box. This type of approach will give you the best of both worlds.
This could be a very cool project for you and many can learn from your work.
Swez
sounds on 08/20/2004 21:50:51
swez, that sounds like a good idea. I wouldn't mind trying that out. Will the different bass still sound good together? because I've never heard of anything like this.
Would it work if I had two seperate boxes? The reason for this is that I don't have access to power tools so I won't be able to construct an effective box. Or could I get one custom-made online?
Dual chamber enclosure means one sealed and one ported right?
swez on 08/21/2004 09:34:22
Dual chamber meaning 2 distinct enclosures. Yes, they can be all in one larger box or 2 separate boxes. Either way is fine. Also, yes... you can use sealed on the small chamber and ported on the larger chamber. Just more design work to figure out proper port dimensions and overall size of that chamber.
Yes, this concept will work and sound good too. Just blending two different bass response concepts into one application. We see this idea applied in 4-way HT/stereo speaker applications all the time. (Ie: Subwoofer, Midbass, midrange & tweeter)
Will you find this design off the shelf? Nope... totally custom to your needs here. Yes, you can buy 2 separate boxes... but they will be of different proportions and may look odd too. Am sure one of our CAD guys here and make you a drawing that you can take to someone that builds custom enclosures. It might not be cheap though. I would not do it for less than $200.00 personally. But a $10.00/hr. guy that knows his stuff, could do if for less.
Swez
LC1 on 08/22/2004 00:56:06
If you would like I could make up some drawings on my CAD program if you like. I am a mechanical engineering student and for me to draw up a box would be no problem. Here is the CAD designed box that I designed/constructed for my 12" Alpine TypeR------> http://www.pbase.com/lc1/vented_enclosure.
Let me know on here if you would like to me make you one. I don't mind helping you out if you don't have access to any CAD programs.
Talk to you later,
Jay
sounds on 08/22/2004 11:03:55
that would be great if you could make up some drawings for me. I don't have any experience with CAD. For the dual enclosured box, I would like to use 5/8" MDF and the height of the box would be 14" or 14 1/2" and the width 36" can be smaller than that if necessary. One side .85 cf and the other 1.25 cf like swez mentioned.
Another question once again, Should I use a 4ga power wire and then have a distribution block to split the 4ga into 2 8ga to wire to both of the amps? 12 gauge speaker wires to wire the speakers as well?
swez on 08/22/2004 11:59:04
4 gage to D-block, split 1x#8 to 4 channel and if you go with the JBL 600.1, use a #4 wire here too. Your D-block should have 2 x #4's and 1 x #8. If the block has a 3-4 #4 holes and lockdown screws, can use #8 in a #4 hole just fine. Just make a hook in the #8 wire and stuff it in there.
Speakers: #14-16 gage is fine for car speakers. For your subs, use #12 in the box and to the amp.
Wood choice: Go with 3/4" MDF on sub enclosure. Will need the rigidity and less internal braces than if you go 5/8" MDF. The 5/8" is hard to hit centers with #8 x 1.5" screws.
The box you want, will need to be 2.15 cf (internally), plus the divider panel and sub displacements. There is a tolerance factor of +/- 10% either side of that 2.15 cf. (3715 in^3)
If the max box height is 14.5" and 36" is max width, then depth will be the only variable here.That comes out to ~10.75" for depth. That nets 2.4 cf internally. (~4149 in^3)
Sub displacement for Shiva is: 183 in^3 per sub (366 in^3/pr.)
The divider panel will be roughly: 120 in^3
Total displacements = ~486 in^3 or 0.281 ft^3
This gives a rounded off net internal volume of 2.12 ft^3. Pretty darn close I'd say to the target 2.15 ft^3 mentioned. This is for both chambers to be sealed.
I like sealed here as when porting, the larger chamber will be notably larger and we'd have to configure a port that is tuned near 35 Hz. Great low end bump. But you will get a big bump in lows already from cabin gain effects. (~15-20 dB more, depending on the vehicle.
Besides, sealed boxes are so stable at any frequency you throw at them. Port tuned boxes can get very squirrly below PTF. (Port tuning freq) No need for a sub sonic filter on sealed boxes. PTF enclosures often need a SS filter. JBL amps do not have that filter. Would have to add a SS filter if ported... more costs.
Hope that helps there LC1. Think I have the calculations correct.. but feel free to double check my math. I do make mistakes too ya know...hehe
Swez
LC1 on 08/22/2004 14:57:20
sounds,
When were you looking to start getting the enclosure built? I won't be able to work on it until tomorrow or tuesday, is that ok?
And as swez mentioned, using 3/4" MDF would be better (more strenght) and it isn't that much more expensive for a 4 x 8 sheet.
Talk to you later,
Jay
PS Swez thanks for the calculations, the appear to look right but I will double check them.
sounds on 08/22/2004 18:00:11
yeah that's good, just take your time since i'm low on cash right now and won't be able to get it built for another two weeks or so. 3/4" MDF will work out well.
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