hi there everyone
i red about many things that supports the power system ..
such as the : capacitors , alt , second batteris . all of these are
solutions for powre draw that the amps sucks to power the audio
system ..
1st : i can't change the altenator cause can make a problem with my car : my car is a peugeot 307 , 2.0 L 4dr . i searched for a an after market altanator i didn't find .. and this can cause a problem with the timing belt cyrcelation .
2nd : i heared and red in this fourm that the Cap is also not the best solution it's just for an fast power carrunt draw supply
3rd : the second battery i guess is the best choice here this's what i think ..
so i asked some friends about the second battery .. they told me that there's something called the (isolater ) that i need to use with the second battrey ...... i searched the net i found the STINGER has it what do you think.
i'm willing to use thses items :
-jbl bp1200.1 mono class d amp
-and still searching for an 4 ch amp
plzz need information and help
Many thanx
Replies (12)
uochronos on 08/11/2004 02:15:09
have you called alternator shops in your town? since changing to an avftermarket alternator is not a good idea they can take apart your current one or other stock alternator and rebuild it to put out more juice... i have a friend who owns an alternator shop and they do this all the time. using stock houseing and pulley but all new internal parts.
as far as a cap they are mainly for fast current draws they wont solve severe dimming..
as for a second battery an isolater works by isiolating the 2 batteries so that they cant feed into each other and the alternator feeds them both. stinger i'm sure has a very good one and they are the top dogs in this type of stuff. but many other places are sure to make similar items for much less.
the one problem with using a second battery that i see for you is if your alternatyor cant keep up with the load then eventualy its going to drain the batter.. a 1200watt amp pulls around 100amp and a 4chanel amp can pull 40-60amps assume low end lets say at high volume this system well pull 130amp if you only have a 90amp alternator then no matter how many batteries you have your going to drain them it well just take longer. and eventualy the strain on your alternator well cause it damage most likly ending in buying new alternator..
i suggest if you want this much power in your system you do some calling around to alternator and battery shops eventualy you can find a place that well build you one for your car out of a stock alternator.
well good luck
swez on 08/11/2004 10:04:56
Agreed... your best solution is to have the present stock ALT built up for more output. A good rebuilder will tell you what your options are.
Also, consider a smaller amp if you have not purchased one yet... or... fuse that amp line at 60A. This fuse will prevent the amp(s) from drawing more current than your system can support. The fuse will blow and protect your electrical system from damage.
NOTE: A JBL 600.1 has a max current draw of 57A. It is only 3dB less SPL than the 1200.1, but half the current draw. Under normal listening conditions, it will draw ~30A. When you punch it hard, 50A + draw is possible. You can still obtain +140dB of SPL with the 600.1.
Swez
only_tuning on 08/11/2004 16:34:39
hi there
thanx for the rich information ....... but let's say if i don't have
qualified people who are experts in ALT'S and can't do any modification
in the stock factory alt's ..... and my aim is to reach the 1200 rms bass . beside the 4ch amp will supply with around lets say 200 rms or 300 rms for speakers .
many thanx bro's i always need more information and will always need to learn from the experts like you .
uochronos on 08/11/2004 16:52:31
there are very very few stock vehicles that can hand 1200watts if you figure it takes 60amp to run your stock electrical and 100amp to run your 1200watt amp thats 160amps... i dont personaly know any stock vehicles with more then 140amp alternator and thats usualy special order type stuff... which a 160amps of pull is going to hurt your alternator. i'm assumeing in a small car like your its a 90amp alternator which means just this amp alone well over take the alternator..
assuming you use just the one amp your going to need to upgrade the alternator or be in trouble down the road with stalling and alternator damage.
are you aware that a 500-600watt amp is just 3db less in SPL volume almost inoticble at that high of volume. but would put half the strain on your system. i perosnaly have a 1200watt amp but i'm giong for a compitition vehicle in the end. but unless you plan to compete 400-600 is probaly going to be more then enough to piss the nieghbors off.
i hope this helps you out a bit
swez on 08/12/2004 11:28:20
Go to a good AutoParts dealer that can test your ALT output. They can do this in the parking lot or a service bay and usually the fee is free or very cheap.
Once you know the idle speed output and the output at say 2000 RPM's, then we can figure out what your stock system will safely support.
Can also call the dealership for that vehicle and ask for Parts Dept. Give them car make and model and ask what the ALT rating is for this car.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/12/2004 13:49:26
I would Highly Reccomend going with a lower RMS system as swez and chronos have suggested in this case. Running Dual Batteries would not be a wise idea due to the fact that if your alternator can not keep up with the amperage demands from an amplifier as it is, adding another battery would only compound the problem.
In order to run a 1200watt rms system you HAVE to upgrade your electricals (Alternator, High CCA battery-Deep Cycle, wiring, fuses etc). Upgrading your alternator is PIVITOL in your quest for a higher wattage system. Like a car, You wouldnt go far in a race with only a quarter tank of gas, B4 you would even start the race you would make sure you have enough to get you through correct?(corny analogy i know), Same with a sound system, Your alternator being your power source, having a system that draws too much amperage will not run correctly, and eventually kill your alternator and leave you stranded somewhere.
Im sure you have an alternator shop somewhere nearby your place of residence. Call them up and see what they can do. B4 i purchased my 200amp alternator i called around to see how much some shops would cost to rewind my alternator for a higher amperage and it was quite cost effective except my stock alternator casing was to small to allow for the 200amp i needed.
I HIGHLY reccomend you do the same(IF you have your heart set on a 1200watt system)
Also be prepared to dig into your pocket book as a higher wattage system not only draws high amperage, but draws a large amount out of your bank account to get it up and running GRIN
Going the 600RMS route might be a better idea, you will still be pleased with the results and save you money.
Hope this helps a bit
~Jason
swez on 08/12/2004 18:18:57
True! Every word is true. Jason & Chronos should know from their own experiences. Both have done major upgrades to their electrical systems to support the gear they strut. Don't even think about cutting corners here on electricals. The expense to replace and/or repair a fried ALT and shorted BAT are not worth the aggravation.
Nothing worse than being miles from home when your car dies some night while you are out joy riding or going to work & back. Most systems work the hardest at night when our lights and A/C or heater are going.
This happened to me one night, on my way to Chicago. Was 200 miles from home when my car crapped out completely. Was on my way to a business meeting next morning and blew that opportunity huh? I got a jump in the AM, drove to the next bigger town where I had called ahead for a rebuild they had in stock. This was a 120A model and had to install the thing in the parking lot with borrowed tools. Lucky thing too!
That whole ordeal cost $160.00 for ALT, $60.00 for a hotel and I never made it to Chicago... blown business opportunity. I did not even have much of a system then... just a old ALT that finally died. Ain't them sweet potatoes? Ohhh Shaltzbutts... Hokenschneider Barfowitz strikes again!
Swez
only_tuning on 08/13/2004 09:00:32
hi
i don't know how to thank u guys ... so u guys recommed me to stick with bass 600 rms and wont hurt my ALT any way i was looking for SQL so i can challenge my friends and and do some self satisfaction in SQ .
i was amazed with the jbl bp.1200.1 and bp.600.1 repitution ,, i wonder about the new mono amps how are they .
must hear idea's and hint from u guys !!!!!!!!
thanx alot
P0werLifter on 08/14/2004 14:27:04
Ok, whats your budget like as far as what you've got to work with?(if you need help picking a type of system, what brand etc...bang for your buck) and have u decided to stick with a 600rms system?
~Jason
only_tuning on 08/15/2004 17:29:21
ok . i'll tell u what's so we can know the items that can be used
for the second install
My install :
HU : alpine 9807
amp : alpine 5ch MRV-F357
Speakers : pioneer TS-D160R 6.5 inch fronts 60 rms
Sub: JBL bass tube CT-1200 250 rms
RCA: Monster
i'm happy with that .
My future upgrade is :
speakers:
polk audio speakers 6.5 inch and 6x9 for rear fill till now
i don't know which class i'll choose the MMC , MM ,DB
but i heard the MMC class it was dame crystal clear and crispy and sharp
amp:
i hope i can use my alpine for the polk audio speakers
mono amp:
i don't know but im thinking about the bp.600.1 mono at 2 ohm will give me 600 rms for subs. but i need recommondation for any good amps that will give 600 rms
Sub :
i think one sub is ok so i can give the max size for the sub box i need to
give the best SQL possiable about the brand i'm thinking about jl audio but i don't know which one to pick the w3,w6 , w7 .
the installation i'm willing for is for the long term use
need subs that perfectly performe in vented/ported boxs
box:
vented/ported
i need advice for more popular brands that provide SQL .
the budget is not a problem becausei buy these suff step by step it's ok i can wait but i need the best possiable.
i listen mostly to Techno, R&B that has cool boomy beats
many recommened for techno music 15 inch subs and for R&B
the 10 inchs subs , so i guess i'll pick 12 because it's in the middle
many thanx
swez on 08/15/2004 19:23:25
That Alpine will do for now as a 4 channel and sub amp too. Is that 50 x 4 + 200 watt sub version? If yes, this amp will do a fine job with your Polks. The sub amp section is a bit underpowered for real good bass, but with an efficient sub in a well ported enclosure, it should do the job until you get a larger sub amp. What are the fuses on this amp now? My guess is 2 x 25 or 2 x 30A?
That JBL Bass tube is not bad for compact installs. But it will not compete with a good SQL 12" woofer. A single 12" sub should be adequate up to about 400 watts RMS, unless you really dig deep for a Monster SPL sub. The JL series is a very high quality sub. One 12Wv2 should be fine here. It will take 600 RMS in a sealed box very well. (4+4 DVC)
Another fine SQL sub to consider is the Brahma from Adire Audio. It may be cheaper than the JL, is a 2+2 DVC and will handle more power than the JL as well. Have a look:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/cut%20sheets/Brahma%20Sales%20Brochure.pdf
This sub has a huge excursion capablity, (28 mm excursion, one-way) can do SQ, SPL or SQL with ease, as will the JL. Not sure what the market price is on JL's 12W6v2, but the Brahma 12" sells for $379.00. Not chump change to be sure... but both subs are Primo performance subs.
One thing to consider, the Brahma will run off your Alpine amp without any modifications. The JL 12W6v2 is a 4+4 DVC. You can run it single coil for 4 ohms on a small amp. But will need to use a bleeder resistor (RDO) to the passive coil to block out effects of reverse electromagnetic energy in the passive coil. Adire has recommended this bleeder for their DVC's, when only 1 coil is used. Am sure other subs can use the same idea.
Swez
PS RDO details:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/RDOOperation.pdf
soul_karver on 08/16/2004 00:05:06
Here is my current setup...
Infinity Reference 610a mono amp... 657 watts RMS at 2 ohms
2 Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1's... 350w RMS each
Q-Logic QLH-1.7512DE... 4" x 12.33" port per sub (tuned at ~35 Hz)
amp info @ http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rjvNqdMGxot/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=108R610A&s=0&cc=01
sub info @ http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rjvNqdMGxot/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=108PER121&s=0&cc=01
box info @ http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rjvNqdMGxot/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=044H1712DE&s=0&cc=01
all three together are $674.96 total with the current deals and free shipping at crutchfield... you can try them out for 30 days and if you don't like the setup you can send all three items back for a full refund (they pay return shipping).
anyway... i think the setup sounds awesome for SQL. Just giving you some options though.
~SK
i red about many things that supports the power system ..
such as the : capacitors , alt , second batteris . all of these are
solutions for powre draw that the amps sucks to power the audio
system ..
1st : i can't change the altenator cause can make a problem with my car : my car is a peugeot 307 , 2.0 L 4dr . i searched for a an after market altanator i didn't find .. and this can cause a problem with the timing belt cyrcelation .
2nd : i heared and red in this fourm that the Cap is also not the best solution it's just for an fast power carrunt draw supply
3rd : the second battery i guess is the best choice here this's what i think ..
so i asked some friends about the second battery .. they told me that there's something called the (isolater ) that i need to use with the second battrey ...... i searched the net i found the STINGER has it what do you think.
i'm willing to use thses items :
-jbl bp1200.1 mono class d amp
-and still searching for an 4 ch amp
plzz need information and help
Many thanx
Replies (12)
uochronos on 08/11/2004 02:15:09
have you called alternator shops in your town? since changing to an avftermarket alternator is not a good idea they can take apart your current one or other stock alternator and rebuild it to put out more juice... i have a friend who owns an alternator shop and they do this all the time. using stock houseing and pulley but all new internal parts.
as far as a cap they are mainly for fast current draws they wont solve severe dimming..
as for a second battery an isolater works by isiolating the 2 batteries so that they cant feed into each other and the alternator feeds them both. stinger i'm sure has a very good one and they are the top dogs in this type of stuff. but many other places are sure to make similar items for much less.
the one problem with using a second battery that i see for you is if your alternatyor cant keep up with the load then eventualy its going to drain the batter.. a 1200watt amp pulls around 100amp and a 4chanel amp can pull 40-60amps assume low end lets say at high volume this system well pull 130amp if you only have a 90amp alternator then no matter how many batteries you have your going to drain them it well just take longer. and eventualy the strain on your alternator well cause it damage most likly ending in buying new alternator..
i suggest if you want this much power in your system you do some calling around to alternator and battery shops eventualy you can find a place that well build you one for your car out of a stock alternator.
well good luck
swez on 08/11/2004 10:04:56
Agreed... your best solution is to have the present stock ALT built up for more output. A good rebuilder will tell you what your options are.
Also, consider a smaller amp if you have not purchased one yet... or... fuse that amp line at 60A. This fuse will prevent the amp(s) from drawing more current than your system can support. The fuse will blow and protect your electrical system from damage.
NOTE: A JBL 600.1 has a max current draw of 57A. It is only 3dB less SPL than the 1200.1, but half the current draw. Under normal listening conditions, it will draw ~30A. When you punch it hard, 50A + draw is possible. You can still obtain +140dB of SPL with the 600.1.
Swez
only_tuning on 08/11/2004 16:34:39
hi there
thanx for the rich information ....... but let's say if i don't have
qualified people who are experts in ALT'S and can't do any modification
in the stock factory alt's ..... and my aim is to reach the 1200 rms bass . beside the 4ch amp will supply with around lets say 200 rms or 300 rms for speakers .
many thanx bro's i always need more information and will always need to learn from the experts like you .
uochronos on 08/11/2004 16:52:31
there are very very few stock vehicles that can hand 1200watts if you figure it takes 60amp to run your stock electrical and 100amp to run your 1200watt amp thats 160amps... i dont personaly know any stock vehicles with more then 140amp alternator and thats usualy special order type stuff... which a 160amps of pull is going to hurt your alternator. i'm assumeing in a small car like your its a 90amp alternator which means just this amp alone well over take the alternator..
assuming you use just the one amp your going to need to upgrade the alternator or be in trouble down the road with stalling and alternator damage.
are you aware that a 500-600watt amp is just 3db less in SPL volume almost inoticble at that high of volume. but would put half the strain on your system. i perosnaly have a 1200watt amp but i'm giong for a compitition vehicle in the end. but unless you plan to compete 400-600 is probaly going to be more then enough to piss the nieghbors off.
i hope this helps you out a bit
swez on 08/12/2004 11:28:20
Go to a good AutoParts dealer that can test your ALT output. They can do this in the parking lot or a service bay and usually the fee is free or very cheap.
Once you know the idle speed output and the output at say 2000 RPM's, then we can figure out what your stock system will safely support.
Can also call the dealership for that vehicle and ask for Parts Dept. Give them car make and model and ask what the ALT rating is for this car.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/12/2004 13:49:26
I would Highly Reccomend going with a lower RMS system as swez and chronos have suggested in this case. Running Dual Batteries would not be a wise idea due to the fact that if your alternator can not keep up with the amperage demands from an amplifier as it is, adding another battery would only compound the problem.
In order to run a 1200watt rms system you HAVE to upgrade your electricals (Alternator, High CCA battery-Deep Cycle, wiring, fuses etc). Upgrading your alternator is PIVITOL in your quest for a higher wattage system. Like a car, You wouldnt go far in a race with only a quarter tank of gas, B4 you would even start the race you would make sure you have enough to get you through correct?(corny analogy i know), Same with a sound system, Your alternator being your power source, having a system that draws too much amperage will not run correctly, and eventually kill your alternator and leave you stranded somewhere.
Im sure you have an alternator shop somewhere nearby your place of residence. Call them up and see what they can do. B4 i purchased my 200amp alternator i called around to see how much some shops would cost to rewind my alternator for a higher amperage and it was quite cost effective except my stock alternator casing was to small to allow for the 200amp i needed.
I HIGHLY reccomend you do the same(IF you have your heart set on a 1200watt system)
Also be prepared to dig into your pocket book as a higher wattage system not only draws high amperage, but draws a large amount out of your bank account to get it up and running GRIN
Going the 600RMS route might be a better idea, you will still be pleased with the results and save you money.
Hope this helps a bit
~Jason
swez on 08/12/2004 18:18:57
True! Every word is true. Jason & Chronos should know from their own experiences. Both have done major upgrades to their electrical systems to support the gear they strut. Don't even think about cutting corners here on electricals. The expense to replace and/or repair a fried ALT and shorted BAT are not worth the aggravation.
Nothing worse than being miles from home when your car dies some night while you are out joy riding or going to work & back. Most systems work the hardest at night when our lights and A/C or heater are going.
This happened to me one night, on my way to Chicago. Was 200 miles from home when my car crapped out completely. Was on my way to a business meeting next morning and blew that opportunity huh? I got a jump in the AM, drove to the next bigger town where I had called ahead for a rebuild they had in stock. This was a 120A model and had to install the thing in the parking lot with borrowed tools. Lucky thing too!
That whole ordeal cost $160.00 for ALT, $60.00 for a hotel and I never made it to Chicago... blown business opportunity. I did not even have much of a system then... just a old ALT that finally died. Ain't them sweet potatoes? Ohhh Shaltzbutts... Hokenschneider Barfowitz strikes again!
Swez
only_tuning on 08/13/2004 09:00:32
hi
i don't know how to thank u guys ... so u guys recommed me to stick with bass 600 rms and wont hurt my ALT any way i was looking for SQL so i can challenge my friends and and do some self satisfaction in SQ .
i was amazed with the jbl bp.1200.1 and bp.600.1 repitution ,, i wonder about the new mono amps how are they .
must hear idea's and hint from u guys !!!!!!!!
thanx alot
P0werLifter on 08/14/2004 14:27:04
Ok, whats your budget like as far as what you've got to work with?(if you need help picking a type of system, what brand etc...bang for your buck) and have u decided to stick with a 600rms system?
~Jason
only_tuning on 08/15/2004 17:29:21
ok . i'll tell u what's so we can know the items that can be used
for the second install
My install :
HU : alpine 9807
amp : alpine 5ch MRV-F357
Speakers : pioneer TS-D160R 6.5 inch fronts 60 rms
Sub: JBL bass tube CT-1200 250 rms
RCA: Monster
i'm happy with that .
My future upgrade is :
speakers:
polk audio speakers 6.5 inch and 6x9 for rear fill till now
i don't know which class i'll choose the MMC , MM ,DB
but i heard the MMC class it was dame crystal clear and crispy and sharp
amp:
i hope i can use my alpine for the polk audio speakers
mono amp:
i don't know but im thinking about the bp.600.1 mono at 2 ohm will give me 600 rms for subs. but i need recommondation for any good amps that will give 600 rms
Sub :
i think one sub is ok so i can give the max size for the sub box i need to
give the best SQL possiable about the brand i'm thinking about jl audio but i don't know which one to pick the w3,w6 , w7 .
the installation i'm willing for is for the long term use
need subs that perfectly performe in vented/ported boxs
box:
vented/ported
i need advice for more popular brands that provide SQL .
the budget is not a problem becausei buy these suff step by step it's ok i can wait but i need the best possiable.
i listen mostly to Techno, R&B that has cool boomy beats
many recommened for techno music 15 inch subs and for R&B
the 10 inchs subs , so i guess i'll pick 12 because it's in the middle
many thanx
swez on 08/15/2004 19:23:25
That Alpine will do for now as a 4 channel and sub amp too. Is that 50 x 4 + 200 watt sub version? If yes, this amp will do a fine job with your Polks. The sub amp section is a bit underpowered for real good bass, but with an efficient sub in a well ported enclosure, it should do the job until you get a larger sub amp. What are the fuses on this amp now? My guess is 2 x 25 or 2 x 30A?
That JBL Bass tube is not bad for compact installs. But it will not compete with a good SQL 12" woofer. A single 12" sub should be adequate up to about 400 watts RMS, unless you really dig deep for a Monster SPL sub. The JL series is a very high quality sub. One 12Wv2 should be fine here. It will take 600 RMS in a sealed box very well. (4+4 DVC)
Another fine SQL sub to consider is the Brahma from Adire Audio. It may be cheaper than the JL, is a 2+2 DVC and will handle more power than the JL as well. Have a look:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/cut%20sheets/Brahma%20Sales%20Brochure.pdf
This sub has a huge excursion capablity, (28 mm excursion, one-way) can do SQ, SPL or SQL with ease, as will the JL. Not sure what the market price is on JL's 12W6v2, but the Brahma 12" sells for $379.00. Not chump change to be sure... but both subs are Primo performance subs.
One thing to consider, the Brahma will run off your Alpine amp without any modifications. The JL 12W6v2 is a 4+4 DVC. You can run it single coil for 4 ohms on a small amp. But will need to use a bleeder resistor (RDO) to the passive coil to block out effects of reverse electromagnetic energy in the passive coil. Adire has recommended this bleeder for their DVC's, when only 1 coil is used. Am sure other subs can use the same idea.
Swez
PS RDO details:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/RDOOperation.pdf
soul_karver on 08/16/2004 00:05:06
Here is my current setup...
Infinity Reference 610a mono amp... 657 watts RMS at 2 ohms
2 Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1's... 350w RMS each
Q-Logic QLH-1.7512DE... 4" x 12.33" port per sub (tuned at ~35 Hz)
amp info @ http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rjvNqdMGxot/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=108R610A&s=0&cc=01
sub info @ http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rjvNqdMGxot/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=108PER121&s=0&cc=01
box info @ http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rjvNqdMGxot/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=044H1712DE&s=0&cc=01
all three together are $674.96 total with the current deals and free shipping at crutchfield... you can try them out for 30 days and if you don't like the setup you can send all three items back for a full refund (they pay return shipping).
anyway... i think the setup sounds awesome for SQL. Just giving you some options though.
~SK
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