Alright this is what I've got (please keep in mind I dont know much about car audio yet.... im working on it though....)
the car is a 1985 Fleetwood Caddilac 4door
Pioneer PH6500 Car Deck
x2 Pioneer 6x9 220w 3 way speakers
x2 Stock Bose speakers (know nothing about other than they are stock...)
Phoenix Gold Sapphire Amplifier (bought it from a friend but dont know how many watts it is but believe to be 1000w)
Pyramid Equalizer
x2 JL Audio 12' W0
currently all i have hooked up is the 4 speakers and the deck but going to hook the rest up when i get a chance
also if you could maybe give me an idea of how to run the wires - i was reading the FAQs and it said dont run this wire with this wire or it will make the sound bad
ALL help will be greatly appreciated
Replies (34)
uochronos on 08/6/2004 02:12:54
ok seems like a pretty decent start here.
mattering what your going for if your looking for a good sound quality then this isnt a bad start at all.
the 3way 6x9 well make for good rear fill.
the 2 front stock bose speakers well probaly want to be upgraded to a set of decent comps as time progresses,.
the amp is a good amp for a used amplifer PG amps are know for durability and quality. however finding out what amp this is exactly well help greatly. thyere should be some sort of markings on it somewhere that can letr you know. if not at leaset let us know is this a 1 channel, 2 channel or 4 channel amp.
the subs are entry level JL subs they cant take alot of power but if your looking for a SQ set up they should please you.
as for the qualizer i dont know much about it pyrimid is usualy a lower end brand and if this equalizer is lower quaLity it may be best to just use the built in EQ in your HU features.
ok the power wire from the battery to amp should run on one side of the car(i usualy use drivers side) and the RCA cables should run down the other side of the car. this is because if the RCA's are close to the power wire or ground wire they can pick up interferance that trust me is very anoying.
i hope this has been helpfull.
ssallstar598 on 08/6/2004 21:02:13
thanks man - its a 5 way amplifier and im also wondering what kind of capacitor im going to need.... they have one at walmart for $75 but i dont know if its big enough for the amp or not
SQ means sound quality right? well i would much rather it hit hard but i only paid $200 for the speakers and a box for them and a Pyramid Super Blue 1000w amplifier from a friend (which i am selling to another friend)
Will the JL subs still bump nicely? (i havent hooked anything but the speakers and the deck up yet)
swez on 08/6/2004 21:25:53
This 5 channel amp may be useful, but sub power section may be a bit whimpy for 2 subs.
What's the model number on the amp? I'll try to look it up and give you some thoughts on what to do and what to expect OK?
Swez
PS Forget the CAP... save your money for something that works. Like new front door speakers? Bose OEM speakers on a non-Bose system are not too hot.
ssallstar598 on 08/6/2004 21:39:02
well theres a sticker on the bottom that says
SA15X 10261
Im actually thinking about bridging the subs to the amp so they have 500w apiece
about the cap though - ive heard that it will drain your alternator BADLY in older cars if youve got an amp hooked up thats pretty big - but if you say so i wont bother w/ em
i was thinkin bout selling the 6x9's to a friend and getting a full set of new ones - what brand sells nice 6x9 speakers?
two last things
1 - can i hook that equalizer up and still use the equalizer on my deck? (iow both at the same time)
2 - where would be a good place to put the amplifier? i cant put it under my seat due to old cars w/ power seats having MASSIVE wires and motors and junk, and if its at all possible id rather not bolt it down
uochronos on 08/6/2004 23:47:40
yes you can hook the equalizer up and use both. however if this equalizer is lower quality then the other signal processing abilities of the HU then it may hurt the quality in the long run but i'm not 100% sure on this.
as for where to mount your amp i would suggest in the trunk that is where i usualy put mine in a car.
as for your amp i still cant find them on the downloads section at Phoenix gold but i well email them tommarow for some specs.. my friend has a SA 5 channel amp as well though about 3 or 4 years old and is running his fronts off the front cahnnels and his subs off the rear channels and not using the sub channel and it sounds very nice for older equipment.
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 01:29:25
well its also white if that helps w/ anything.... (the amp)
swez on 08/7/2004 09:05:15
OK, the mystery amp prevails. Use all four channels for the interior and try the sub channel out. If not enough power for the bass... can always add a larger sub amp later.
The JL subs you mentioned are low power. If I recall, they are rated at 125 RMS each. They also come in 4 & 8 ohm coils. Do you know which ones you have now? (12W0-8 is 8 ohm, 12W0-4 is 4 ohm) This matters as depending on the sub amp ohmic load handling, you may have some choices to make later.
Since we don't know much on this sub amp section yet, let's see what comes back via Chronos' query to PG.
EQ: I would not recommend using dual EQ's if your HU has a good EQ feature already. Noise issues for one, complex gain structure issues for another. If this were a high end EQ like Audio Control, that would be different.
CAP: These are possible solution for minor light dimming issues on large bass spikes. But for serious power deficiencies, upgrading the ALT/BAT and wires are a permanent and correct choice. On that year Caddy, it probably has a V-8 and at least a 105A ALT. This one can usually be easily upgraded to a higher output version that drops right in.
A few calls to a good parts store like AutoZone or Pep Boys will tell you what is stock and what larger ALTs will also fit. A remanufactured ALT is much cheaper than new. Many come with life time warranties too.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 19:19:53
i believe the subs are W0-8 i havent gotten them in the mail yet but they should be here this week (looks that way from the tracking number)
the caddilac has a V8 yes.... i will check into the alternator issue though (what is the minumum alternator power i need for the amp to work?)
also - if i hooked up my pioneers and these cheap cheap cheap walmart brand 2 way speakers to the amp, it wouldnt blow the cheap speakers would it?
swez - whats your car hooked up w/?
swez on 08/7/2004 20:48:19
Right now, my car audio is on hold as I am looking for a newer vehicle. I have the following:
1. JBL DA-1002 (2 channel, 300 RMS @ 4 0hms)
2. US Acoustics USA 4060 (60 RMS x 4 @ 4 ohms)
3. Subs a pair of SoundStream SPL 10 (4+4) DVC's 250 RMS each
4. Pending are CDT CL-61a Comps for front
5. Pending for rears ???? dunno
6. Sony ES series HU, 3 pairs of RCA preouts, 2.0 volts per each
Am intereted in SQL performance. Want it clean, want it full sounding but not annoying to others. This is for my enjoyment only. If I like it and it suits my well tuned ears... that's all I care about.
About power to run that amp properly... look at the fuses it has. That will tell the max current the system will draw. If your amp has 3x15 or 3x20A fuses, we can estimate (extrapolate) power output likely to your speakers.
Most cars need about 50-60A's of current to operate properly. If your amp draws more than 50A's and have a 105A ALT, you may need to add a few upgrades. Less than that, should be OK.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 20:56:20
where would i locate these fuses on the amp? theres nothing on the outside and id rather not take it apart and not be able to put it back together lol
you said earlier that my subs are probly only 125 RMS right? well the friend im buying em from said they are 1000w subs (which means they can handle UP to that and then blow) obviously that means the speakers will be stressed if they handle that high correct? i think i read it earlier in one of the articles on the site.... but i cant remember.... how many watts = RMS?
swez on 08/7/2004 21:38:42
Those subs are rated at 125 watts RMS or continous music power. Yes, they can take peaks of 300 watts or more for "very short" durations... but not all day long. I checked the specs and yes... 125 Watts Continous is correct.
RMS = Root Means Square. That is about 50% of peak power handling power. If you try to feed a pair of these subs 1000 watts RMS... they will be toast in under 5 mins.
That amp may have internal fuses or none at all. Some of the older amps did not use fuses externally or internally because of the power supply designs used. We can extrapolate watts output is we know the ohmic value of the load and the voltage going into the load. Ohm's law is the tool we use here. Basically, Ohm's ;aw states that: Power = Current x Voltage to a load. There are several deravations in the formulae we can also use.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 21:47:56
arent 5 way amps USUALLY divided up by half into sub out and then 1/4 of a 1/2 into each regular output?
and you kinda lost me..... i need to know the current and voltage to find out the power correct? or am i way off
ALSO i have a 1000w pyramid amp 2 way (i know its not a good brand but i got it cheap....) i was just gonna sell it to my friend but if it might work well for just the subs i can do that
ONE LAST THING....
I have about $800 to spend on speakers/subs (cause i can always sell the JL's to a friend and get better harder hitting ones)
i would like to get about 600 continuous watts sub.... whats the best sounding/decent priced i can get? sounding meaning it will hit hard but still have good sound quality
P0werLifter on 08/7/2004 23:45:59
Before you start buying everything and spending your money, id reccomend sitting down, and maybe figuring out exactly what you want out of the system now,,,and later if you plan on upgrading.
Allways think about your power issues when it comes to your alternator/electrical system. You may have a 1000watt amplifier and one/two subwoofers that are 600w but your cars electrical system will not run efficiently with this amount of amperage being pulled from the system.
Have you by chance checked into your alternator issue? How many ampers is it? Im going to take a guess and say 80-100ampers. If you want a sub thats a 600watt RMS sub...your going to need a amplifier to run < 600watts RMS at the certain ohmage load.
When sitting down and planning the system, add up the total Wattage of your stereo system, then divide that by 12 assuming your car is on a 12volt system (its a given haha). Say right now you use that Pyramid amp that per say might be 1000watts RMS...divide the 1000/12= 83amp load for the alternator to keep up with. Thats not including the power spikes. That amount alone is how much your alternator makes at full output, now tack on another 60ampers or more just to be safe for your stock electricals and BANG thats the size alt you need at least to run your system as is.
In order to run high wattage systems your electrical system MUST be upgraded prior your system to prevent damage/ end up being stuck somewhere with a dead battery and a dead alternator. Electrical upgrades will be spendy, but shopping around right and if you have some craftmanship you will save money and learn while your doing it.
You might consider running a lower wattage system, it will still bump, and you'll save some money while your at it...but if you plan on running more amplifiers/high wattage,,,your going to have to make the neccessary changes.
I think that covers it GRIN
~Jason
ssallstar598 on 08/8/2004 00:41:28
very good point there - i actually cant go out and look at the car until tomarrow night.... (brother borrowed it for the weekend) so i dont know about the alt. or anything........
thanks for pointing it out
P0werLifter on 08/8/2004 00:57:45
Its just something to think about prior to spending your money on high wattage components. Then later find out that you cant run them due to your electricals not being able to keep up.
To run my system (and im not near finished) i spend at least 600just on electrical upgrades. $340 just for a 200amp alternator + A Deep Cycle Battery+ All the neccessary wiring and fuses, conectors etc and im not near finished (have to run multiple alternators/ a bank of batteries eventually).
Just think about it then when you get your car back, go check and see if theres any markings etc on your car. You can even get the VIN number and call a dealership around town and they can tell you the size alternator on your vehicle. After that we'll be able to help you more efficiently.
-Jason
uochronos on 08/8/2004 06:30:36
a good thing to keep in mind is every time you double the wattage you only gain +3db... so 1200watts is only 3db more then a 600watt amp. and a 400-600watt amp likly wont require much electrical upgrade if any.
honestly 400watts can get pretty loud with the right sub's and for alot of people would be more then enough, unless you really need the extra few DB's looking in this range is a wise choice.
swez on 08/8/2004 09:06:44
Well said fellas! CLAP
Yes, planning is key to getting above average results. The electrical aspects of this plan need to to considered very carefully here as PL noted, you could find yourself stranded out in the middle of booney town w/ a dead battery and alt.
The Pyrimid amp mentioned is a good example of really fouled up power ratings. It may say "1000 watts" as that is how much power the amp consumes. But the real output is more like 50% OF THAT 1000 WATTS. P-mid greatly stretches their power ratings... big time. We often call this the "ILSI" power rating system. (If lightning strikes it)
However, it may be good enough to power your JL subs when they come in. Not very efficient with power, but it should produce some boom if you actually get close to 500 watts continous power (RMS power) when bridged. Does that amp have external fuses? How many and what values? With that and the model number, can tell you more about what it really can do.
The JL subs you are getting are actually very good SQL subs. They are the low end of the line in power handling. But they are quality products. JL rates their gear on the conservative side. Even though they state 125 watts continous power, they will handle more power in the proper enclosure design. These subs can actually take ~200 watts RMS each per the power chart noted below:
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
For now, hang on to it as it may be useful to power your JL subs. That PG amp is also useful for powering interior speakers. An amp that can deliver 50-75 watts (RMS) x 4, of clean power to your speakers, will do very nicely here. The sub section of the amp can be left unused and it will not consume much additional power if there is no load (speakers)attached to that part of the amp.
However, feeding 2 amps adequate power and still having enough to keep the Caddy happy, will require some careful power management planning. I installed a 120A ALT in my former Olds Trofeo' and had adequate current to power the system noted earlier. Both amps consume about 60A of current at full power. That leaves 60A. for the car... every thing was cool. When I sold it, I swapped out the Buick ALT (105A) and kept the 120A for the Buick. Was a tight fit and had to re-clock the ALT... but it worked out fine. But for now, am running stock system here as I hope to off the car soon and get something more to my needs and tastes.
The LeSabre is a very solid car and very good on gas too... but it's an old mans car and really does not fit my work needs well either. Need a truck for my business as I am a Carpenter and need to haul tools and lumber around regularly.
So for now, I'll just hold off on installing any new gear and just be happy with my garage shop audio system. It's very good SQL and I have to go easy on the subs or my neighbors get a bit miffed. Can't say I blame em. Bass travels a long way in the still of the night as I work or fiddle with various projects. hehe My one neighbor is a widow in her 80's... but she is actually pretty cool about things until ~11:00 PM.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/8/2004 18:54:51
ok well i remember someone pointing out that i need to divide the total watts im using by 12 and then tack on anohter 60 for stock electronics... well the amp would be 1000, the car deck 200 (or do i count this?) and then 60 for stock elec. so thats 160 - am i correct or am i not....?
thanks for all the info about it being pricy to upgrade the elec. system.... it saved me alot of frustration in the long run
uochronos on 08/9/2004 04:06:37
yes thats about right.... although the sub amp well only pull 80 amps when turned all the way up. i have a 1200watt amp that is supposed to be fused at 150amps i have it fused at 60amps and i havnt blown the fuses yet because i dont puch it over 40%. so the less you turn it up the less power it well use...
as swez said that amp is not very effieceint you can get a amp that can power those subs that is efficient problay only pull 40amps at full power these subs are around 125rms each get a amp that is 300watts total that well push them well and use alot less power. there are alot fo very reasonable 300watt amps. i recently purchased a JBL for my wife for 120$.
P0werLifter on 08/9/2004 04:08:58
Somewhere around there yah thats correct, I use the Total RMS value to divide the voltage by, but max power is a good safe way to do it GRIN ....Id just shoot for a 200amp alt if you plan on spending the money to upgrade as the electricals, or if you decide not to go with a high wattage system still figure out the total power draw and go from there.
ssallstar598 on 08/10/2004 23:27:07
alright ive got 1 question....
IF i put both of the subs on the sub output (assuming its going to put out 500watts) that would put 250 to each sub correct...?
and my alternator would only be using the 41 amps for the amp and then 60 or so for the stock elec. so i would be perfectly safe w/ the alternator issue correct? (the alt isnt stock... its something recently installed like 5 months ago... idk what it is but it cost roughly $200 w/ the installation of a good friend who is a mechanic so i got a deal on the installation)
also.... im looking for a new set of 6x9s.... what is the BEST brand at roughly 150 tops for each set of 2
uochronos on 08/11/2004 02:04:45
that PG 5 channel i'm assuming is what you emant by put it on the sub output. there is no way the sub channel on that amp is 500watts.... also the 41amps for a 500watt amp isnt exactly correct. for an ab amp its more aorund 50-55amps at max power fro a class d amp its like 45-50amps at max power. the 41amps you got is what the amp would give you if it was 100% effiecient but most amps are from 60-85% effiecient class T amps are around 90-95% effiecient.
also that makes around 100amps for the sstock electricals and the amp. make sure this car has at elast 110amp alternator stock...
my last car had a 90amp alternator and i was running a PG 500watt tantrum series amp and with just ehadlights and stereo on there was noticable dimming. with the heater and the head lights on it was close to draining the battery on bass spikes.
ssallstar598 on 08/11/2004 22:47:50
alright well some more info on the amp
its white..... and across the Phoenix Gold brand on it it has the word Sapphire on it and it has no fuses on the outside (assuming that means its a pretty old amp)
swez on 08/12/2004 19:02:52
Just write to PG Tech Support and give them the model number and serial number. Request power output data from this amp and how much current it will draw.
I scanned Ebay for PG amps and saw "0" Sapphire amps listed. This must be an oldie but goodie.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/18/2004 13:16:40
alright ill try that - can anyone tell me roughly what a JL 12' W6 would be? i dont know how many voice coils... but can anyone still quote me a price (it is a used speaker)
ssallstar598 on 08/18/2004 15:43:07
Hello,
The Sapphire 1.5x was Phoenix Gold's first low priced, multi-channel
amplifier capable of full front and rear fading for mid/high speakers and a
dedicated non-fading subwoofer channel. Front and rear channels feature
continuously variable high pass crossovers. The dedicated subwoofer channel
features a continuously variable lowpass crossover. Front, rear and
subwoofer channels feature independent input sensitivity controls. First
production was in 1993. Last Production was in 1996.
Use at least 8 gauge power wire. The amp must be isolated from the car's
chassis by mounting it to a board or other suitable insulated surface. The
subwoofer channel can handle 2 ohm operation. 4 ohm bridged operation is
acceptable for the front and rear channels. However, 2 ohms bridged is NOT
acceptable.
The entire amplifier can run from a single pair of signal inputs plugged
into the front input jacks. The rear input jacks automatically receive
signal from the front inputs. Plugging signal cables into the rear input
jacks automatically defeats the front signals and allows front to rear
fading.
The subwoofer channel is non fading. The subwoofer channel uses signal from
all four input jacks.
To run the amplifier in a 3 channel configuration with the front and rear
channels bridged to a pair of mid/high speakers requires a specific
arrangement for the input signals. There are two ways to set up the input
signals correctly. The easiest is to run both front and rear pre-amp signal
cable from the head unit to the amplifier. Plug both front and rear right
signal cables into the front inputs. Then plug both front and rear left
signal cables into the left inputs. For head units with only one set of
pre-amp cables, split them into two rights and two lefts using a pair of "Y"
connectors. Plug the two rights into the front inputs and the two lefts into
the rear inputs. Bridge the right mid/high speaker to the Front Left + and
the Front Right - speaker terminals. Bridged the left mid/high speaker to
the Rear Left + and the Rear Right - speaker terminals.
Specifications:
Main Channels
Output Power per Channel @ 1% THD (all channels driven)*
Into 4 ohms @ 12.0 VDC 30 watts x 4
Into 4 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 40 watts x 4
Into 2 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 60 watts x 4
Bridged into 4 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 120 watts x 2
High Pass Crossover Frequency Range 30Hz to 500Hz
Crossover Slope 12dB per octave
Subwoofer Channel
Output Power per Channel @ 1% THD (all channels driven)*
Into 4 ohms @ 12.0 VDC 90 watts x 1
Into 4 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 120 watts x 1
Into 2 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 180 watts x 1
Low Pass Crossover Frequency Range 30Hz to 250Hz
Crossover Slope 12dB per octave
Frequency Response ± 1dB from 20Hz to 20kHz
Signal to Noise Ratio >100dB
Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts
Input Impedance >30k ohms
Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volt
Typical current draw at idle 1.5 amps
Internal Fuses 2 x 30 amp ATO
2 layer, 2 ounce Copper G10 Glass-Epoxy printed circuit board
Power-on LED indicator
High Current Triple-Darlington Output Stage
MINIMUM LOAD IS 4 OHMS BRIDGED OR 2 OHM STEREO FOR HIGH PASS CHANNELS
MINIMUM LOAD IS 2 OHMS FOR LOW PASS CHANNEL
Thanks Again-
Ian
Technical Support Specialist
Phoenix Gold International, Inc.
(503)286-9300 or:
(800)950-1449 ext.351
thats what the guy said...... and frankly..... idk wut the heck he is talking about... (only bits and peices) swez... can you translate it to idiot? lol
swez on 08/18/2004 21:25:48
Modest power (~35 x 4 RMS) to 4 channels and a modest sub channel (175 watts) at 2 ohms. Actually, he gave you extemely good technical data in all.
So, the PG amp mystery is solved. From what I see, it is usable, but not a power monster of any sort. Better than a standard HU in output and features, but usable. As I suspected, the sub section is very low power by todays' standards.
Anyway, the main thing we see is that this amp can be bridged for more power as a 2 channel version. It will pull under 40A w/o the sub amp being used. But a bigger sub amp is probably a good idea, somewhere along the line. If you bridged this amp down to a 2 channel version, can expect a very solid 60-70 watts RMS per speaker at 4 ohms. NOT BAD AT ALL. Can run the rear speakers off the HU rear channels too.
Those JL subs... did you say they are 12W0-8's? If yes, that will net a 4 ohm load when both subs are run parallel. Can you confirm these are 8 ohms and not 4 ohm subs? It matters as to what sub amp to use when you get to that point. It would be better if these were 4 ohm units and not 8 ohm subs. (But there is a way to work it out)
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 01:07:42
ok well whats the TOTAL power of the amp?
and the subs are 4 i believe...... but do u think u could gimme a price on 1 used JL W6 12' ?
cause if its a deal ima get that and sell the other subs to a friend....
and i am thinking about getting a new amp - what would you suggest? im not really worried about amplifying anything but subs also
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 02:26:45
alright im definately going to look into getting the 12' W6 mainly because that one will be slightly better than the 2 12' W0's i have........ but PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DOES IT COST BRAND NEW/USED
thank yaz......
P0werLifter on 08/19/2004 03:33:06
I looked on ebay for JL Audio 12w6 and many different price ranges came up...from 150-250on a used w6...im not very familiar with the price ranges on the w6's but as far as the w7s their expensive lol...look around on ebay or some internet Retailers and check prices...just remember that the RMS value i believe is 400watts RMS...As far as the amplifier you have the sub channel is only 175watts RMS.....Probably want to consider purchasing another amplifier to run the subwoofer drivers. Are you purchasing 1..or 2 Drivers?
-Jason
swez on 08/19/2004 07:13:45
Total power of that amp?
35 watts x 4 = 140 watts RMS (120 x 2 @ 4 ohms bridged)
...................+ 175 (sub) RMS @ 2 ohms
...................= 315 total RMS
Bridged mode: 120 x 2 = 240 +175 (sub) = 415 watts RMS
Plenty of mid/high power when bridged. The sub channel would be adequate for a single 2 ohm sub (4+4 DVC). Yes, it would also push a pair of 4 ohm SVC's as well. A tad under 90 watts per sub. Not a big boomer... but well balanced bass here.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 18:06:43
Jason - only 1 sub if thats what you were asking
swez - thanks for the info, im looking into getting a 500-600 watt JBL amp for the subs.... although i will still have the pyramid amp i can use for the subs.... you told me earlier it wont be the full 1000 because of the brands quality - about how much will it be?
swez on 08/19/2004 19:00:24
Hard to say without specs or fuse ratings. If you have the model number and or fuse ratings, can approximate what you'll get based on either detail.
P-mide really overstates power on their gear. They often give a "PEAK" output rating at 14.4 volts. The real number you want is the RMS power at a given speaker load. If it's a 1000 watt peak amp, that's about 400-500 when bridged at 4 ohms or ~200 watts RMS per channel is a rough guess.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 19:41:56
well i wont know for about a week......... i know this much........ its a Pyramid Super Blue 1000w 2 channel amp
the car is a 1985 Fleetwood Caddilac 4door
Pioneer PH6500 Car Deck
x2 Pioneer 6x9 220w 3 way speakers
x2 Stock Bose speakers (know nothing about other than they are stock...)
Phoenix Gold Sapphire Amplifier (bought it from a friend but dont know how many watts it is but believe to be 1000w)
Pyramid Equalizer
x2 JL Audio 12' W0
currently all i have hooked up is the 4 speakers and the deck but going to hook the rest up when i get a chance
also if you could maybe give me an idea of how to run the wires - i was reading the FAQs and it said dont run this wire with this wire or it will make the sound bad
ALL help will be greatly appreciated
Replies (34)
uochronos on 08/6/2004 02:12:54
ok seems like a pretty decent start here.
mattering what your going for if your looking for a good sound quality then this isnt a bad start at all.
the 3way 6x9 well make for good rear fill.
the 2 front stock bose speakers well probaly want to be upgraded to a set of decent comps as time progresses,.
the amp is a good amp for a used amplifer PG amps are know for durability and quality. however finding out what amp this is exactly well help greatly. thyere should be some sort of markings on it somewhere that can letr you know. if not at leaset let us know is this a 1 channel, 2 channel or 4 channel amp.
the subs are entry level JL subs they cant take alot of power but if your looking for a SQ set up they should please you.
as for the qualizer i dont know much about it pyrimid is usualy a lower end brand and if this equalizer is lower quaLity it may be best to just use the built in EQ in your HU features.
ok the power wire from the battery to amp should run on one side of the car(i usualy use drivers side) and the RCA cables should run down the other side of the car. this is because if the RCA's are close to the power wire or ground wire they can pick up interferance that trust me is very anoying.
i hope this has been helpfull.
ssallstar598 on 08/6/2004 21:02:13
thanks man - its a 5 way amplifier and im also wondering what kind of capacitor im going to need.... they have one at walmart for $75 but i dont know if its big enough for the amp or not
SQ means sound quality right? well i would much rather it hit hard but i only paid $200 for the speakers and a box for them and a Pyramid Super Blue 1000w amplifier from a friend (which i am selling to another friend)
Will the JL subs still bump nicely? (i havent hooked anything but the speakers and the deck up yet)
swez on 08/6/2004 21:25:53
This 5 channel amp may be useful, but sub power section may be a bit whimpy for 2 subs.
What's the model number on the amp? I'll try to look it up and give you some thoughts on what to do and what to expect OK?
Swez
PS Forget the CAP... save your money for something that works. Like new front door speakers? Bose OEM speakers on a non-Bose system are not too hot.
ssallstar598 on 08/6/2004 21:39:02
well theres a sticker on the bottom that says
SA15X 10261
Im actually thinking about bridging the subs to the amp so they have 500w apiece
about the cap though - ive heard that it will drain your alternator BADLY in older cars if youve got an amp hooked up thats pretty big - but if you say so i wont bother w/ em
i was thinkin bout selling the 6x9's to a friend and getting a full set of new ones - what brand sells nice 6x9 speakers?
two last things
1 - can i hook that equalizer up and still use the equalizer on my deck? (iow both at the same time)
2 - where would be a good place to put the amplifier? i cant put it under my seat due to old cars w/ power seats having MASSIVE wires and motors and junk, and if its at all possible id rather not bolt it down
uochronos on 08/6/2004 23:47:40
yes you can hook the equalizer up and use both. however if this equalizer is lower quality then the other signal processing abilities of the HU then it may hurt the quality in the long run but i'm not 100% sure on this.
as for where to mount your amp i would suggest in the trunk that is where i usualy put mine in a car.
as for your amp i still cant find them on the downloads section at Phoenix gold but i well email them tommarow for some specs.. my friend has a SA 5 channel amp as well though about 3 or 4 years old and is running his fronts off the front cahnnels and his subs off the rear channels and not using the sub channel and it sounds very nice for older equipment.
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 01:29:25
well its also white if that helps w/ anything.... (the amp)
swez on 08/7/2004 09:05:15
OK, the mystery amp prevails. Use all four channels for the interior and try the sub channel out. If not enough power for the bass... can always add a larger sub amp later.
The JL subs you mentioned are low power. If I recall, they are rated at 125 RMS each. They also come in 4 & 8 ohm coils. Do you know which ones you have now? (12W0-8 is 8 ohm, 12W0-4 is 4 ohm) This matters as depending on the sub amp ohmic load handling, you may have some choices to make later.
Since we don't know much on this sub amp section yet, let's see what comes back via Chronos' query to PG.
EQ: I would not recommend using dual EQ's if your HU has a good EQ feature already. Noise issues for one, complex gain structure issues for another. If this were a high end EQ like Audio Control, that would be different.
CAP: These are possible solution for minor light dimming issues on large bass spikes. But for serious power deficiencies, upgrading the ALT/BAT and wires are a permanent and correct choice. On that year Caddy, it probably has a V-8 and at least a 105A ALT. This one can usually be easily upgraded to a higher output version that drops right in.
A few calls to a good parts store like AutoZone or Pep Boys will tell you what is stock and what larger ALTs will also fit. A remanufactured ALT is much cheaper than new. Many come with life time warranties too.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 19:19:53
i believe the subs are W0-8 i havent gotten them in the mail yet but they should be here this week (looks that way from the tracking number)
the caddilac has a V8 yes.... i will check into the alternator issue though (what is the minumum alternator power i need for the amp to work?)
also - if i hooked up my pioneers and these cheap cheap cheap walmart brand 2 way speakers to the amp, it wouldnt blow the cheap speakers would it?
swez - whats your car hooked up w/?
swez on 08/7/2004 20:48:19
Right now, my car audio is on hold as I am looking for a newer vehicle. I have the following:
1. JBL DA-1002 (2 channel, 300 RMS @ 4 0hms)
2. US Acoustics USA 4060 (60 RMS x 4 @ 4 ohms)
3. Subs a pair of SoundStream SPL 10 (4+4) DVC's 250 RMS each
4. Pending are CDT CL-61a Comps for front
5. Pending for rears ???? dunno
6. Sony ES series HU, 3 pairs of RCA preouts, 2.0 volts per each
Am intereted in SQL performance. Want it clean, want it full sounding but not annoying to others. This is for my enjoyment only. If I like it and it suits my well tuned ears... that's all I care about.
About power to run that amp properly... look at the fuses it has. That will tell the max current the system will draw. If your amp has 3x15 or 3x20A fuses, we can estimate (extrapolate) power output likely to your speakers.
Most cars need about 50-60A's of current to operate properly. If your amp draws more than 50A's and have a 105A ALT, you may need to add a few upgrades. Less than that, should be OK.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 20:56:20
where would i locate these fuses on the amp? theres nothing on the outside and id rather not take it apart and not be able to put it back together lol
you said earlier that my subs are probly only 125 RMS right? well the friend im buying em from said they are 1000w subs (which means they can handle UP to that and then blow) obviously that means the speakers will be stressed if they handle that high correct? i think i read it earlier in one of the articles on the site.... but i cant remember.... how many watts = RMS?
swez on 08/7/2004 21:38:42
Those subs are rated at 125 watts RMS or continous music power. Yes, they can take peaks of 300 watts or more for "very short" durations... but not all day long. I checked the specs and yes... 125 Watts Continous is correct.
RMS = Root Means Square. That is about 50% of peak power handling power. If you try to feed a pair of these subs 1000 watts RMS... they will be toast in under 5 mins.
That amp may have internal fuses or none at all. Some of the older amps did not use fuses externally or internally because of the power supply designs used. We can extrapolate watts output is we know the ohmic value of the load and the voltage going into the load. Ohm's law is the tool we use here. Basically, Ohm's ;aw states that: Power = Current x Voltage to a load. There are several deravations in the formulae we can also use.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/7/2004 21:47:56
arent 5 way amps USUALLY divided up by half into sub out and then 1/4 of a 1/2 into each regular output?
and you kinda lost me..... i need to know the current and voltage to find out the power correct? or am i way off
ALSO i have a 1000w pyramid amp 2 way (i know its not a good brand but i got it cheap....) i was just gonna sell it to my friend but if it might work well for just the subs i can do that
ONE LAST THING....
I have about $800 to spend on speakers/subs (cause i can always sell the JL's to a friend and get better harder hitting ones)
i would like to get about 600 continuous watts sub.... whats the best sounding/decent priced i can get? sounding meaning it will hit hard but still have good sound quality
P0werLifter on 08/7/2004 23:45:59
Before you start buying everything and spending your money, id reccomend sitting down, and maybe figuring out exactly what you want out of the system now,,,and later if you plan on upgrading.
Allways think about your power issues when it comes to your alternator/electrical system. You may have a 1000watt amplifier and one/two subwoofers that are 600w but your cars electrical system will not run efficiently with this amount of amperage being pulled from the system.
Have you by chance checked into your alternator issue? How many ampers is it? Im going to take a guess and say 80-100ampers. If you want a sub thats a 600watt RMS sub...your going to need a amplifier to run < 600watts RMS at the certain ohmage load.
When sitting down and planning the system, add up the total Wattage of your stereo system, then divide that by 12 assuming your car is on a 12volt system (its a given haha). Say right now you use that Pyramid amp that per say might be 1000watts RMS...divide the 1000/12= 83amp load for the alternator to keep up with. Thats not including the power spikes. That amount alone is how much your alternator makes at full output, now tack on another 60ampers or more just to be safe for your stock electricals and BANG thats the size alt you need at least to run your system as is.
In order to run high wattage systems your electrical system MUST be upgraded prior your system to prevent damage/ end up being stuck somewhere with a dead battery and a dead alternator. Electrical upgrades will be spendy, but shopping around right and if you have some craftmanship you will save money and learn while your doing it.
You might consider running a lower wattage system, it will still bump, and you'll save some money while your at it...but if you plan on running more amplifiers/high wattage,,,your going to have to make the neccessary changes.
I think that covers it GRIN
~Jason
ssallstar598 on 08/8/2004 00:41:28
very good point there - i actually cant go out and look at the car until tomarrow night.... (brother borrowed it for the weekend) so i dont know about the alt. or anything........
thanks for pointing it out
P0werLifter on 08/8/2004 00:57:45
Its just something to think about prior to spending your money on high wattage components. Then later find out that you cant run them due to your electricals not being able to keep up.
To run my system (and im not near finished) i spend at least 600just on electrical upgrades. $340 just for a 200amp alternator + A Deep Cycle Battery+ All the neccessary wiring and fuses, conectors etc and im not near finished (have to run multiple alternators/ a bank of batteries eventually).
Just think about it then when you get your car back, go check and see if theres any markings etc on your car. You can even get the VIN number and call a dealership around town and they can tell you the size alternator on your vehicle. After that we'll be able to help you more efficiently.
-Jason
uochronos on 08/8/2004 06:30:36
a good thing to keep in mind is every time you double the wattage you only gain +3db... so 1200watts is only 3db more then a 600watt amp. and a 400-600watt amp likly wont require much electrical upgrade if any.
honestly 400watts can get pretty loud with the right sub's and for alot of people would be more then enough, unless you really need the extra few DB's looking in this range is a wise choice.
swez on 08/8/2004 09:06:44
Well said fellas! CLAP
Yes, planning is key to getting above average results. The electrical aspects of this plan need to to considered very carefully here as PL noted, you could find yourself stranded out in the middle of booney town w/ a dead battery and alt.
The Pyrimid amp mentioned is a good example of really fouled up power ratings. It may say "1000 watts" as that is how much power the amp consumes. But the real output is more like 50% OF THAT 1000 WATTS. P-mid greatly stretches their power ratings... big time. We often call this the "ILSI" power rating system. (If lightning strikes it)
However, it may be good enough to power your JL subs when they come in. Not very efficient with power, but it should produce some boom if you actually get close to 500 watts continous power (RMS power) when bridged. Does that amp have external fuses? How many and what values? With that and the model number, can tell you more about what it really can do.
The JL subs you are getting are actually very good SQL subs. They are the low end of the line in power handling. But they are quality products. JL rates their gear on the conservative side. Even though they state 125 watts continous power, they will handle more power in the proper enclosure design. These subs can actually take ~200 watts RMS each per the power chart noted below:
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
For now, hang on to it as it may be useful to power your JL subs. That PG amp is also useful for powering interior speakers. An amp that can deliver 50-75 watts (RMS) x 4, of clean power to your speakers, will do very nicely here. The sub section of the amp can be left unused and it will not consume much additional power if there is no load (speakers)attached to that part of the amp.
However, feeding 2 amps adequate power and still having enough to keep the Caddy happy, will require some careful power management planning. I installed a 120A ALT in my former Olds Trofeo' and had adequate current to power the system noted earlier. Both amps consume about 60A of current at full power. That leaves 60A. for the car... every thing was cool. When I sold it, I swapped out the Buick ALT (105A) and kept the 120A for the Buick. Was a tight fit and had to re-clock the ALT... but it worked out fine. But for now, am running stock system here as I hope to off the car soon and get something more to my needs and tastes.
The LeSabre is a very solid car and very good on gas too... but it's an old mans car and really does not fit my work needs well either. Need a truck for my business as I am a Carpenter and need to haul tools and lumber around regularly.
So for now, I'll just hold off on installing any new gear and just be happy with my garage shop audio system. It's very good SQL and I have to go easy on the subs or my neighbors get a bit miffed. Can't say I blame em. Bass travels a long way in the still of the night as I work or fiddle with various projects. hehe My one neighbor is a widow in her 80's... but she is actually pretty cool about things until ~11:00 PM.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/8/2004 18:54:51
ok well i remember someone pointing out that i need to divide the total watts im using by 12 and then tack on anohter 60 for stock electronics... well the amp would be 1000, the car deck 200 (or do i count this?) and then 60 for stock elec. so thats 160 - am i correct or am i not....?
thanks for all the info about it being pricy to upgrade the elec. system.... it saved me alot of frustration in the long run
uochronos on 08/9/2004 04:06:37
yes thats about right.... although the sub amp well only pull 80 amps when turned all the way up. i have a 1200watt amp that is supposed to be fused at 150amps i have it fused at 60amps and i havnt blown the fuses yet because i dont puch it over 40%. so the less you turn it up the less power it well use...
as swez said that amp is not very effieceint you can get a amp that can power those subs that is efficient problay only pull 40amps at full power these subs are around 125rms each get a amp that is 300watts total that well push them well and use alot less power. there are alot fo very reasonable 300watt amps. i recently purchased a JBL for my wife for 120$.
P0werLifter on 08/9/2004 04:08:58
Somewhere around there yah thats correct, I use the Total RMS value to divide the voltage by, but max power is a good safe way to do it GRIN ....Id just shoot for a 200amp alt if you plan on spending the money to upgrade as the electricals, or if you decide not to go with a high wattage system still figure out the total power draw and go from there.
ssallstar598 on 08/10/2004 23:27:07
alright ive got 1 question....
IF i put both of the subs on the sub output (assuming its going to put out 500watts) that would put 250 to each sub correct...?
and my alternator would only be using the 41 amps for the amp and then 60 or so for the stock elec. so i would be perfectly safe w/ the alternator issue correct? (the alt isnt stock... its something recently installed like 5 months ago... idk what it is but it cost roughly $200 w/ the installation of a good friend who is a mechanic so i got a deal on the installation)
also.... im looking for a new set of 6x9s.... what is the BEST brand at roughly 150 tops for each set of 2
uochronos on 08/11/2004 02:04:45
that PG 5 channel i'm assuming is what you emant by put it on the sub output. there is no way the sub channel on that amp is 500watts.... also the 41amps for a 500watt amp isnt exactly correct. for an ab amp its more aorund 50-55amps at max power fro a class d amp its like 45-50amps at max power. the 41amps you got is what the amp would give you if it was 100% effiecient but most amps are from 60-85% effiecient class T amps are around 90-95% effiecient.
also that makes around 100amps for the sstock electricals and the amp. make sure this car has at elast 110amp alternator stock...
my last car had a 90amp alternator and i was running a PG 500watt tantrum series amp and with just ehadlights and stereo on there was noticable dimming. with the heater and the head lights on it was close to draining the battery on bass spikes.
ssallstar598 on 08/11/2004 22:47:50
alright well some more info on the amp
its white..... and across the Phoenix Gold brand on it it has the word Sapphire on it and it has no fuses on the outside (assuming that means its a pretty old amp)
swez on 08/12/2004 19:02:52
Just write to PG Tech Support and give them the model number and serial number. Request power output data from this amp and how much current it will draw.
I scanned Ebay for PG amps and saw "0" Sapphire amps listed. This must be an oldie but goodie.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/18/2004 13:16:40
alright ill try that - can anyone tell me roughly what a JL 12' W6 would be? i dont know how many voice coils... but can anyone still quote me a price (it is a used speaker)
ssallstar598 on 08/18/2004 15:43:07
Hello,
The Sapphire 1.5x was Phoenix Gold's first low priced, multi-channel
amplifier capable of full front and rear fading for mid/high speakers and a
dedicated non-fading subwoofer channel. Front and rear channels feature
continuously variable high pass crossovers. The dedicated subwoofer channel
features a continuously variable lowpass crossover. Front, rear and
subwoofer channels feature independent input sensitivity controls. First
production was in 1993. Last Production was in 1996.
Use at least 8 gauge power wire. The amp must be isolated from the car's
chassis by mounting it to a board or other suitable insulated surface. The
subwoofer channel can handle 2 ohm operation. 4 ohm bridged operation is
acceptable for the front and rear channels. However, 2 ohms bridged is NOT
acceptable.
The entire amplifier can run from a single pair of signal inputs plugged
into the front input jacks. The rear input jacks automatically receive
signal from the front inputs. Plugging signal cables into the rear input
jacks automatically defeats the front signals and allows front to rear
fading.
The subwoofer channel is non fading. The subwoofer channel uses signal from
all four input jacks.
To run the amplifier in a 3 channel configuration with the front and rear
channels bridged to a pair of mid/high speakers requires a specific
arrangement for the input signals. There are two ways to set up the input
signals correctly. The easiest is to run both front and rear pre-amp signal
cable from the head unit to the amplifier. Plug both front and rear right
signal cables into the front inputs. Then plug both front and rear left
signal cables into the left inputs. For head units with only one set of
pre-amp cables, split them into two rights and two lefts using a pair of "Y"
connectors. Plug the two rights into the front inputs and the two lefts into
the rear inputs. Bridge the right mid/high speaker to the Front Left + and
the Front Right - speaker terminals. Bridged the left mid/high speaker to
the Rear Left + and the Rear Right - speaker terminals.
Specifications:
Main Channels
Output Power per Channel @ 1% THD (all channels driven)*
Into 4 ohms @ 12.0 VDC 30 watts x 4
Into 4 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 40 watts x 4
Into 2 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 60 watts x 4
Bridged into 4 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 120 watts x 2
High Pass Crossover Frequency Range 30Hz to 500Hz
Crossover Slope 12dB per octave
Subwoofer Channel
Output Power per Channel @ 1% THD (all channels driven)*
Into 4 ohms @ 12.0 VDC 90 watts x 1
Into 4 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 120 watts x 1
Into 2 ohms @ 14.4 VDC 180 watts x 1
Low Pass Crossover Frequency Range 30Hz to 250Hz
Crossover Slope 12dB per octave
Frequency Response ± 1dB from 20Hz to 20kHz
Signal to Noise Ratio >100dB
Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts
Input Impedance >30k ohms
Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volt
Typical current draw at idle 1.5 amps
Internal Fuses 2 x 30 amp ATO
2 layer, 2 ounce Copper G10 Glass-Epoxy printed circuit board
Power-on LED indicator
High Current Triple-Darlington Output Stage
MINIMUM LOAD IS 4 OHMS BRIDGED OR 2 OHM STEREO FOR HIGH PASS CHANNELS
MINIMUM LOAD IS 2 OHMS FOR LOW PASS CHANNEL
Thanks Again-
Ian
Technical Support Specialist
Phoenix Gold International, Inc.
(503)286-9300 or:
(800)950-1449 ext.351
thats what the guy said...... and frankly..... idk wut the heck he is talking about... (only bits and peices) swez... can you translate it to idiot? lol
swez on 08/18/2004 21:25:48
Modest power (~35 x 4 RMS) to 4 channels and a modest sub channel (175 watts) at 2 ohms. Actually, he gave you extemely good technical data in all.
So, the PG amp mystery is solved. From what I see, it is usable, but not a power monster of any sort. Better than a standard HU in output and features, but usable. As I suspected, the sub section is very low power by todays' standards.
Anyway, the main thing we see is that this amp can be bridged for more power as a 2 channel version. It will pull under 40A w/o the sub amp being used. But a bigger sub amp is probably a good idea, somewhere along the line. If you bridged this amp down to a 2 channel version, can expect a very solid 60-70 watts RMS per speaker at 4 ohms. NOT BAD AT ALL. Can run the rear speakers off the HU rear channels too.
Those JL subs... did you say they are 12W0-8's? If yes, that will net a 4 ohm load when both subs are run parallel. Can you confirm these are 8 ohms and not 4 ohm subs? It matters as to what sub amp to use when you get to that point. It would be better if these were 4 ohm units and not 8 ohm subs. (But there is a way to work it out)
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 01:07:42
ok well whats the TOTAL power of the amp?
and the subs are 4 i believe...... but do u think u could gimme a price on 1 used JL W6 12' ?
cause if its a deal ima get that and sell the other subs to a friend....
and i am thinking about getting a new amp - what would you suggest? im not really worried about amplifying anything but subs also
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 02:26:45
alright im definately going to look into getting the 12' W6 mainly because that one will be slightly better than the 2 12' W0's i have........ but PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DOES IT COST BRAND NEW/USED
thank yaz......
P0werLifter on 08/19/2004 03:33:06
I looked on ebay for JL Audio 12w6 and many different price ranges came up...from 150-250on a used w6...im not very familiar with the price ranges on the w6's but as far as the w7s their expensive lol...look around on ebay or some internet Retailers and check prices...just remember that the RMS value i believe is 400watts RMS...As far as the amplifier you have the sub channel is only 175watts RMS.....Probably want to consider purchasing another amplifier to run the subwoofer drivers. Are you purchasing 1..or 2 Drivers?
-Jason
swez on 08/19/2004 07:13:45
Total power of that amp?
35 watts x 4 = 140 watts RMS (120 x 2 @ 4 ohms bridged)
...................+ 175 (sub) RMS @ 2 ohms
...................= 315 total RMS
Bridged mode: 120 x 2 = 240 +175 (sub) = 415 watts RMS
Plenty of mid/high power when bridged. The sub channel would be adequate for a single 2 ohm sub (4+4 DVC). Yes, it would also push a pair of 4 ohm SVC's as well. A tad under 90 watts per sub. Not a big boomer... but well balanced bass here.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 18:06:43
Jason - only 1 sub if thats what you were asking
swez - thanks for the info, im looking into getting a 500-600 watt JBL amp for the subs.... although i will still have the pyramid amp i can use for the subs.... you told me earlier it wont be the full 1000 because of the brands quality - about how much will it be?
swez on 08/19/2004 19:00:24
Hard to say without specs or fuse ratings. If you have the model number and or fuse ratings, can approximate what you'll get based on either detail.
P-mide really overstates power on their gear. They often give a "PEAK" output rating at 14.4 volts. The real number you want is the RMS power at a given speaker load. If it's a 1000 watt peak amp, that's about 400-500 when bridged at 4 ohms or ~200 watts RMS per channel is a rough guess.
Swez
ssallstar598 on 08/19/2004 19:41:56
well i wont know for about a week......... i know this much........ its a Pyramid Super Blue 1000w 2 channel amp
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