Hey guys hows it goin? I thought id go a head and start planning my system. So far ive been working on the Bass issues and electrical Upgrades.
Currently running-
-200amp alternator (125amps at idle) -4guage to batt
-Optima Yellow Top with 0guage wiring under the cab in flex conduit back to the cab with a Power Distrobution Block with 4 guage to my amplifiers and also a Ground Distrobution Block with 0 guage straight to the frame (havnt had any issues with this so far)
- 2 channel Apline Amplifier running my Infinity Seperates
-Power Acoustik 3000Db amplifier running 900Rms to my two Power Acoustik 12" MoFos
(rebuilding the enclosure next week, 3cubic Feed Per sub in a ported enclosure tuned to 30hz)
- Just recieved my Audio Control Epic-160 in the mail today so once i hook it up ill know what kind of numbers im hitting.
K. now that ive bored you heres what im thinking for the future. To mount all my eq's , Processors etc im going to be building a Custom Center Consol that runs from the bottom of my dash back.
Im Going to start investing in more SQ now since ive accomplished my SPL needs for the moment and am going to be purchasing a 2 sets of CDT CL-61T components and mounting one set in the doors, and one set in some kick panels.
From my Epic-160 im thinking about running an AC Epicenter (im not sure i need it) then to a AC DSX that will control the Amplfiers that run the MIds And highs then from there a AC Matrix to Control All my Sub Amplfiers since in the future i will add more to my SPL plans. Now all of these processors Eq,s etc will be in the Center Consol. Im thinking about AC products because i know their Rep is good and good quality but im open to other options also.
Also any recomendations for Amplifiers to run the Components? im getting rid of the Apline for athestic purposes (it has a couple scratches). Im also going to be running mutliple Alternator/Batteries to run the SPL area once im finished getting more SQ out of the system since thats going to be my main focus eventually but i want to get everything up b4 i spend the money for that area more than i have already.
Now grantid, this s going to take me some time to occumulate all the parts i need and some serious time and planning but i believe if im going to do it..do it right and the best i can since eventually i plan to compete in SPL and possibly SQ if i get it good enough.
Any Comments Suggestions Ideas are welcome. Sorry for the essay just wanted everyone to know what ive got and where i want to go. Thanks
~Jason
Replies (20)
swez on 08/1/2004 09:56:42
I think you have a good plan in the making here Jason. Just try to avoid overly redundant DSP/EQ processors as each item adds a noise potential to chase down.
The CDT's will be an excellent addition to your cabin SQL. Kicks are a very good choice up front and 2nd pair in rear panels will offer very good F&R staging. To power them, a solid 100 x 4 channel amp is good choice. Am sure PA has a few amps that can do that much power and more if you like some extra headroom. (125 x 4)
May I suggest as you plan, draw out a block diagram of the entire system you are planning so that you have a clear picture of how everything will be connected. Grounding all DSP's, HU and EQ to same location will be key to a noise free install.
Finally, running your power feed line under the cab in flex conduit is a good option. Just be sure to anchor it well to the frame channel so you don't get any undue sags in the line. Don't want to snag it and have a real mess on your hands to repair. Welding wire is very durable and current carry is very good with that gage. Much cheaper than some branded power lines too.
Happy planning,
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/1/2004 13:57:07
Cool, yah the 0 guage wire is in flex conduit that runs in the frame rails and its tied down so its not going anywhere. As far as grounding all the DSPs, and Eqs ill ground em all to the same location like you said. Ill check out some PA amplifiers to see what the've got.
As far as the CDT seperats go, i did have a pair of 4" infinities in the rear panels but their not worth replacing i cut the wires because even amplfied you dont hear anything good. Ill be putting the 2nd pair of seperates in the doors. R&L with the kick panels
Thanks swez im glad to hear ive got something good planned haha =)
-Jason
swez on 08/1/2004 19:25:05
Oh yeah... good to plan. Even better to think ahead on a big picture basis, then move from macro to micro...details.
The rear Infinity speakers you snipped.. what do you think the problem is in that stage? Too small of drivers, not much rear air space or lack of cone area and power? Asking as am not sure how good your staging in the rear channels will be with Comps in door and on floor. If there is nothing (speakers) behind you, imaging will be mostly front stage times 2. Not sure you'll be happy with that result. Is there another location (behind you) to install the 2nd pair of CDT's?
THINK on that awhile before you commit yourself to a front door mount. Unless you have rear door panels you can make or modify, the rear channel may wind up being your subs. Many do it that way in smaller cab installs. But this may take some careful evaluation on location of the 2nd pair of Comps.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/2/2004 04:35:11
I think the main problem with the infinities, it was too small of a driver. In order to get to the speakers themselves we had to tear apart the whole rear inteior due to the fact that the speakers are in mounted in the metal behind the side panels and make for a hard area to put other speakers. Either I could A. Tear it all apart again and see what ive got to work with to see if u can cut metal away for another size driver to mount, or B. Build an enclosure on top of the subwoofer enclosure in the rear of the truck. My Chevy is an extended cab but the whole rear seat,and seatbelts are gone for the sub woofer enclosure.
Any ideas as far as the simplest way to get a good mounting point? The door mounts have the mid diver down low..with the tweeter up in front of the arm rest.
~Jason
swez on 08/2/2004 09:12:30
Wonder if you can fabricate a pair of kick panels for the rear stage here. Taking everything apart back there sounds like a very time consuming job and cutting large diameter holes in metal frame may weaken the structure of the cab support beams. It may not sound that great after all the work too.
Another thought might be to design a pair of mini-wedges that mount to your sub enclosure. Some angle/gimble mounts (like ones used in HT) for rear would allow changes in direction for best alignment possible.
What say you Jason?
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/2/2004 16:39:50
Hmm i like that idea Swez, Ill start working on some designs that will look trick in my truck then we'll go from there, would it be best to deisgn them for the mid drivers on the floor corners? or on top of the box in the corners of the truck?
~Jason
swez on 08/3/2004 07:46:17
If there is room to install wing enclosures on sides of the woofer box, that might give better staging. If that is not possible, top mounts would be good as this will bring the rear sound stage up for better clarity in mids and highs.
Also, it might be good to contact CDT for enclosure size recommendations for best MB performance. I would estimate about 0.25 - 0.4cf internal for a 6.5" driver, crossed over at 80 Hz, you may be able to go smaller. But confirm that w/ CDT before you dive in.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/3/2004 17:12:43
Alright cool, ill check with them and see what the enclosure reccomendations will be once im purchase them and get em here.
Where should i put the tweeters? on top of the MB driver or at a different location?
~jason
swez on 08/3/2004 20:27:22
Keep them close to the MB drivers as they will image well this way. If you get them more than a foot away from MB drivers, time alignments may become an issue as tweeters may reach your ears faster than the MB.
I think this could work and be a novel concept... get to work PL. :-)
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/3/2004 21:43:13
=) Thanks swez...we'll see after i get everything goin and installed,,,once everything is done ill take some digital pictures so you can see the finished results. (And some pics of the SPL output on the meter).
swez on 08/4/2004 09:11:27
That will be interesting... trying to take a still pic as the truck is vibrating your eyeballs out of their sockets. SMILE
Actually, doesn't that dB meter have a sample and hold feature too? When you begin your initial tests and setups, run a few low freq sweeps to find the loudest resonance point. That will be your max SPL target range.
Ohhhh, need I remind you? Get some hearing protection when testing above 110 dB. The sponge type ear plugs are good. Headsets (like the aircraft handlers wear), are even better.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/4/2004 13:36:08
LOL that reminds me of when my buddies GF got in the truck and she was yelling "MY BRAIN IS VIBRATING" thats when i turned it back down and told her to plug her ears lol.
Yah the Epic does have a hold feature to keep your highest number to show to others =). I will do a couple of low lvl sweeps and see which range hits the highest SPL output then go through that certain range one by one and "burp" heach hz to see which one produces the max output. And yah, Thanks for the reminder about earplugs, I still want to be able to hear when im older.
Jason
swez on 08/5/2004 08:31:40
That's right my friend... 110dB for ~10 minutes is about all the ears can tolerate until they begin to fatigue and block SPL. In your case, use hearing protection that will give you at least -40dB sound blocking ability. The bass is not your biggest issue here. Mids and highs at >110dB gain can be brutal on the ears long term. The bass will be so strong, your chest may pound and the brain will get rattled too.
Be wise with your daily listening habits and use hearing protection when tuning for SPL Comps. Short tone burps are very hard on the ears as they cannot react fast enough to huge spikes in SPL.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/5/2004 15:14:37
I couldnt agree more Swez. Im pretty responsible about my daily listening untill some lil punk pulls up with his lil stock stereo boomin thinkin he's bad, then I Crank it, and watch him speed off with the quickness , or when im tuning at the house. Other than that i like to keep it a comfortable listening volume.
Your Right about mids and highs being brutal. At higher volume id rather take the bass beating- the highs can have such a piercing effect on your ear drums.
-Jason
PS- Dont you hate it when you post something trying to help someone and they never respond back? Its like dang whatever happend?
swez on 08/6/2004 09:11:13
Jason,
Yeah, it is hard to get a response at times from some posters. Often, the issues were resolved and he's off enjoying his new toys. Sometimes, there are delays too. Can't get time or parts to fix it now... on hold, no new news.
From what I have observed over time, some folks are very good at checking back to say what happened and a quick "thanks". They stick around and learn too. Others are not interested in follow ups. It's fixed, I'm happy and on my way... done deal. Then most are in the middle of the pack... they read, learn and quietly soak up whatever they can in annonimity. (our silent majority)
I see you are trying to help out others already. That's great! Keep learning, read the FAQ's and when you have time, review this site for deeper details:
http://www.bcae1.com/
Some of his concepts are very easy to understand. Others are a bit deep and take more time to digest. In all, an excellent compilation of information on many audio related topics.
Enjoy,
Swez
erikcooper on 08/6/2004 13:58:08
Sounds like you have a great system planned man. I been gone for awhile but I am finally getting some free time again. I agree with Swez about the rear deck and having them built in like a seperate kick panel like design in the back. When do you plan to actually have the money for all of this?
swez on 08/6/2004 18:46:43
Chronos contacted CDT on the speaker enclosure size that is well suited to thier 6.5" MB drivers. The box will work well at 0.3 cf per speaker. Can go a bit smaller and stuff with polyfill if needed.
Just remember, your crossover freq will be ~80 Hz and the sub will handle the rest below that. A smaller enclosure will work as long as it can give decent SPL down to 80 Hz.
Hey Eric... been a while bud! How ya be?
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/6/2004 23:33:34
Hey Erik, nice to meet ya and glad you've found some time to come back to the board. As far as having the money for the systems components go,,,,each paycheck im buying a piece of my puzzle. This week im buying the materials i need for my new subwoofer enclosure, fiberglass, RCA,s and speaker wire. Next ill save 2 paychecks (or 1 depending if work enough hours) and buy both of the CDT component sets. Then buy a PowerAcoustik 100x4 amplifier. Then purchase the AC products.
All in all..the system should be in within 7mos (seems a while but time flys).Within the next 2 weeks im going to have my new sub enclosure built/in and working, and im going to start fabricating the kick panels and the center consol.Depending on if i can figure out the fiberglass issues i want to make the consol and maybe the kicks partly out of the glass. (ive been wanting to learn how to build enclosures, kicks, etc out of fiberglass for a while so why not try now?).
Cool thanks Swez i just got done reading chronos's post on the CDTs. Saves me some work now its time to get creative GRIN
Lets see..that should cover it, any other comments? questions? suggestions?
Jason
erikcooper on 08/10/2004 10:11:42
I have a fiberglass how-to written if you want to check it out. It may be useful.
P0werLifter on 08/11/2004 14:29:14
Cool I checked it out, well written. My cousin who lives in Oregon works with fiberglass all day long so im going to try to get some pointers from him and see if he can send me some Fiberglass matting since he gets it at dirt cheap prices GRIN . Im going to go buy all the resin/hardner etc today probably then once im finished with my new sub enclosure go ahead and start on the center consol.
Thanks again
Jason
Currently running-
-200amp alternator (125amps at idle) -4guage to batt
-Optima Yellow Top with 0guage wiring under the cab in flex conduit back to the cab with a Power Distrobution Block with 4 guage to my amplifiers and also a Ground Distrobution Block with 0 guage straight to the frame (havnt had any issues with this so far)
- 2 channel Apline Amplifier running my Infinity Seperates
-Power Acoustik 3000Db amplifier running 900Rms to my two Power Acoustik 12" MoFos
(rebuilding the enclosure next week, 3cubic Feed Per sub in a ported enclosure tuned to 30hz)
- Just recieved my Audio Control Epic-160 in the mail today so once i hook it up ill know what kind of numbers im hitting.
K. now that ive bored you heres what im thinking for the future. To mount all my eq's , Processors etc im going to be building a Custom Center Consol that runs from the bottom of my dash back.
Im Going to start investing in more SQ now since ive accomplished my SPL needs for the moment and am going to be purchasing a 2 sets of CDT CL-61T components and mounting one set in the doors, and one set in some kick panels.
From my Epic-160 im thinking about running an AC Epicenter (im not sure i need it) then to a AC DSX that will control the Amplfiers that run the MIds And highs then from there a AC Matrix to Control All my Sub Amplfiers since in the future i will add more to my SPL plans. Now all of these processors Eq,s etc will be in the Center Consol. Im thinking about AC products because i know their Rep is good and good quality but im open to other options also.
Also any recomendations for Amplifiers to run the Components? im getting rid of the Apline for athestic purposes (it has a couple scratches). Im also going to be running mutliple Alternator/Batteries to run the SPL area once im finished getting more SQ out of the system since thats going to be my main focus eventually but i want to get everything up b4 i spend the money for that area more than i have already.
Now grantid, this s going to take me some time to occumulate all the parts i need and some serious time and planning but i believe if im going to do it..do it right and the best i can since eventually i plan to compete in SPL and possibly SQ if i get it good enough.
Any Comments Suggestions Ideas are welcome. Sorry for the essay just wanted everyone to know what ive got and where i want to go. Thanks
~Jason
Replies (20)
swez on 08/1/2004 09:56:42
I think you have a good plan in the making here Jason. Just try to avoid overly redundant DSP/EQ processors as each item adds a noise potential to chase down.
The CDT's will be an excellent addition to your cabin SQL. Kicks are a very good choice up front and 2nd pair in rear panels will offer very good F&R staging. To power them, a solid 100 x 4 channel amp is good choice. Am sure PA has a few amps that can do that much power and more if you like some extra headroom. (125 x 4)
May I suggest as you plan, draw out a block diagram of the entire system you are planning so that you have a clear picture of how everything will be connected. Grounding all DSP's, HU and EQ to same location will be key to a noise free install.
Finally, running your power feed line under the cab in flex conduit is a good option. Just be sure to anchor it well to the frame channel so you don't get any undue sags in the line. Don't want to snag it and have a real mess on your hands to repair. Welding wire is very durable and current carry is very good with that gage. Much cheaper than some branded power lines too.
Happy planning,
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/1/2004 13:57:07
Cool, yah the 0 guage wire is in flex conduit that runs in the frame rails and its tied down so its not going anywhere. As far as grounding all the DSPs, and Eqs ill ground em all to the same location like you said. Ill check out some PA amplifiers to see what the've got.
As far as the CDT seperats go, i did have a pair of 4" infinities in the rear panels but their not worth replacing i cut the wires because even amplfied you dont hear anything good. Ill be putting the 2nd pair of seperates in the doors. R&L with the kick panels
Thanks swez im glad to hear ive got something good planned haha =)
-Jason
swez on 08/1/2004 19:25:05
Oh yeah... good to plan. Even better to think ahead on a big picture basis, then move from macro to micro...details.
The rear Infinity speakers you snipped.. what do you think the problem is in that stage? Too small of drivers, not much rear air space or lack of cone area and power? Asking as am not sure how good your staging in the rear channels will be with Comps in door and on floor. If there is nothing (speakers) behind you, imaging will be mostly front stage times 2. Not sure you'll be happy with that result. Is there another location (behind you) to install the 2nd pair of CDT's?
THINK on that awhile before you commit yourself to a front door mount. Unless you have rear door panels you can make or modify, the rear channel may wind up being your subs. Many do it that way in smaller cab installs. But this may take some careful evaluation on location of the 2nd pair of Comps.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/2/2004 04:35:11
I think the main problem with the infinities, it was too small of a driver. In order to get to the speakers themselves we had to tear apart the whole rear inteior due to the fact that the speakers are in mounted in the metal behind the side panels and make for a hard area to put other speakers. Either I could A. Tear it all apart again and see what ive got to work with to see if u can cut metal away for another size driver to mount, or B. Build an enclosure on top of the subwoofer enclosure in the rear of the truck. My Chevy is an extended cab but the whole rear seat,and seatbelts are gone for the sub woofer enclosure.
Any ideas as far as the simplest way to get a good mounting point? The door mounts have the mid diver down low..with the tweeter up in front of the arm rest.
~Jason
swez on 08/2/2004 09:12:30
Wonder if you can fabricate a pair of kick panels for the rear stage here. Taking everything apart back there sounds like a very time consuming job and cutting large diameter holes in metal frame may weaken the structure of the cab support beams. It may not sound that great after all the work too.
Another thought might be to design a pair of mini-wedges that mount to your sub enclosure. Some angle/gimble mounts (like ones used in HT) for rear would allow changes in direction for best alignment possible.
What say you Jason?
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/2/2004 16:39:50
Hmm i like that idea Swez, Ill start working on some designs that will look trick in my truck then we'll go from there, would it be best to deisgn them for the mid drivers on the floor corners? or on top of the box in the corners of the truck?
~Jason
swez on 08/3/2004 07:46:17
If there is room to install wing enclosures on sides of the woofer box, that might give better staging. If that is not possible, top mounts would be good as this will bring the rear sound stage up for better clarity in mids and highs.
Also, it might be good to contact CDT for enclosure size recommendations for best MB performance. I would estimate about 0.25 - 0.4cf internal for a 6.5" driver, crossed over at 80 Hz, you may be able to go smaller. But confirm that w/ CDT before you dive in.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/3/2004 17:12:43
Alright cool, ill check with them and see what the enclosure reccomendations will be once im purchase them and get em here.
Where should i put the tweeters? on top of the MB driver or at a different location?
~jason
swez on 08/3/2004 20:27:22
Keep them close to the MB drivers as they will image well this way. If you get them more than a foot away from MB drivers, time alignments may become an issue as tweeters may reach your ears faster than the MB.
I think this could work and be a novel concept... get to work PL. :-)
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/3/2004 21:43:13
=) Thanks swez...we'll see after i get everything goin and installed,,,once everything is done ill take some digital pictures so you can see the finished results. (And some pics of the SPL output on the meter).
swez on 08/4/2004 09:11:27
That will be interesting... trying to take a still pic as the truck is vibrating your eyeballs out of their sockets. SMILE
Actually, doesn't that dB meter have a sample and hold feature too? When you begin your initial tests and setups, run a few low freq sweeps to find the loudest resonance point. That will be your max SPL target range.
Ohhhh, need I remind you? Get some hearing protection when testing above 110 dB. The sponge type ear plugs are good. Headsets (like the aircraft handlers wear), are even better.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/4/2004 13:36:08
LOL that reminds me of when my buddies GF got in the truck and she was yelling "MY BRAIN IS VIBRATING" thats when i turned it back down and told her to plug her ears lol.
Yah the Epic does have a hold feature to keep your highest number to show to others =). I will do a couple of low lvl sweeps and see which range hits the highest SPL output then go through that certain range one by one and "burp" heach hz to see which one produces the max output. And yah, Thanks for the reminder about earplugs, I still want to be able to hear when im older.
Jason
swez on 08/5/2004 08:31:40
That's right my friend... 110dB for ~10 minutes is about all the ears can tolerate until they begin to fatigue and block SPL. In your case, use hearing protection that will give you at least -40dB sound blocking ability. The bass is not your biggest issue here. Mids and highs at >110dB gain can be brutal on the ears long term. The bass will be so strong, your chest may pound and the brain will get rattled too.
Be wise with your daily listening habits and use hearing protection when tuning for SPL Comps. Short tone burps are very hard on the ears as they cannot react fast enough to huge spikes in SPL.
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/5/2004 15:14:37
I couldnt agree more Swez. Im pretty responsible about my daily listening untill some lil punk pulls up with his lil stock stereo boomin thinkin he's bad, then I Crank it, and watch him speed off with the quickness , or when im tuning at the house. Other than that i like to keep it a comfortable listening volume.
Your Right about mids and highs being brutal. At higher volume id rather take the bass beating- the highs can have such a piercing effect on your ear drums.
-Jason
PS- Dont you hate it when you post something trying to help someone and they never respond back? Its like dang whatever happend?
swez on 08/6/2004 09:11:13
Jason,
Yeah, it is hard to get a response at times from some posters. Often, the issues were resolved and he's off enjoying his new toys. Sometimes, there are delays too. Can't get time or parts to fix it now... on hold, no new news.
From what I have observed over time, some folks are very good at checking back to say what happened and a quick "thanks". They stick around and learn too. Others are not interested in follow ups. It's fixed, I'm happy and on my way... done deal. Then most are in the middle of the pack... they read, learn and quietly soak up whatever they can in annonimity. (our silent majority)
I see you are trying to help out others already. That's great! Keep learning, read the FAQ's and when you have time, review this site for deeper details:
http://www.bcae1.com/
Some of his concepts are very easy to understand. Others are a bit deep and take more time to digest. In all, an excellent compilation of information on many audio related topics.
Enjoy,
Swez
erikcooper on 08/6/2004 13:58:08
Sounds like you have a great system planned man. I been gone for awhile but I am finally getting some free time again. I agree with Swez about the rear deck and having them built in like a seperate kick panel like design in the back. When do you plan to actually have the money for all of this?
swez on 08/6/2004 18:46:43
Chronos contacted CDT on the speaker enclosure size that is well suited to thier 6.5" MB drivers. The box will work well at 0.3 cf per speaker. Can go a bit smaller and stuff with polyfill if needed.
Just remember, your crossover freq will be ~80 Hz and the sub will handle the rest below that. A smaller enclosure will work as long as it can give decent SPL down to 80 Hz.
Hey Eric... been a while bud! How ya be?
Swez
P0werLifter on 08/6/2004 23:33:34
Hey Erik, nice to meet ya and glad you've found some time to come back to the board. As far as having the money for the systems components go,,,,each paycheck im buying a piece of my puzzle. This week im buying the materials i need for my new subwoofer enclosure, fiberglass, RCA,s and speaker wire. Next ill save 2 paychecks (or 1 depending if work enough hours) and buy both of the CDT component sets. Then buy a PowerAcoustik 100x4 amplifier. Then purchase the AC products.
All in all..the system should be in within 7mos (seems a while but time flys).Within the next 2 weeks im going to have my new sub enclosure built/in and working, and im going to start fabricating the kick panels and the center consol.Depending on if i can figure out the fiberglass issues i want to make the consol and maybe the kicks partly out of the glass. (ive been wanting to learn how to build enclosures, kicks, etc out of fiberglass for a while so why not try now?).
Cool thanks Swez i just got done reading chronos's post on the CDTs. Saves me some work now its time to get creative GRIN
Lets see..that should cover it, any other comments? questions? suggestions?
Jason
erikcooper on 08/10/2004 10:11:42
I have a fiberglass how-to written if you want to check it out. It may be useful.
P0werLifter on 08/11/2004 14:29:14
Cool I checked it out, well written. My cousin who lives in Oregon works with fiberglass all day long so im going to try to get some pointers from him and see if he can send me some Fiberglass matting since he gets it at dirt cheap prices GRIN . Im going to go buy all the resin/hardner etc today probably then once im finished with my new sub enclosure go ahead and start on the center consol.
Thanks again
Jason
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