I want to make a 4 subs box for my reg cab truck the way i planned it, it would be about .41 CF for each sub yeh for my kickers im suppose to have atleast 1.25 but what would that do to um if there not enough room i could maybe make the box higher which would be about .5, I used these kickers in a little bigger boxes and sound great not much bigger than the one i want to make so, and also how does venting work would i need a bigger box to allow venting to work right?
Replies (43)
Bigeazy4387 on 07/17/2004 12:55:37
venting a box in a reg cab will be really tricky but you could port it with circle ports at the top what size are the subs
uochronos on 07/17/2004 15:20:15
these are extremly small boxes for kicker subs kickers are very space hungry even in sealed enclosures usualy 1.2-2.0 cubic feet per sub sealed.... in a vented aplication usualy 2CuFt per sub or more. these boxes are way to small for ported... also going with 2 of these subs in a larger ported box well get you the same loudness or more then using all 4 in small sealed enclosures.
i'm sure ttocs, swez and kittle can shed a bit more light on why this is and what your best options are.
swez on 07/17/2004 18:16:46
Am afraird you are spinning your wheels on this one Racer. A box that small for each sub will produce very little low bass. The enclosure airspace is what helps develops the bass signals fed to the sub. It might be very loud above 60 Hz or so... but your deep bass will be gone in that size enclosure.
One option to consider, might be a wall design. Here, a flat panel is placed behind the front seats (floor to ceiling, wall to wall) and loaded with subs facing the windshield. Then, each sub had a separate air chamber matched to it's desired airspace. You can use sealed or ported designs this way. The hard part is fabrication of the wall so that it fits tight and does not rattle with bass notes.
If you consider this route, take very careful measurements on your wall and shape. Have enough amping power to drive all subs and this design will really blow you away.
You can even mount your amps behind the wall too. Just make a service panel that you can remove to work on amps etc.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 18:29:51
I dont really want to rip my cab apart i just wanted a loud!!!! system so you think 2 would do the same in right kinda boxes?
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 18:30:55
how could i get more spl out of 2 then thats what i have now but i could proboly make a box to fill up behind seat and get some good air space
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 18:31:55
oh bigeazy there 12 inch kicker comp svc
swez on 07/17/2004 19:35:13
What amp are you running here Racer?
Actually, a pair of CompVR's can get pretty loud in a larger ported enclosure. If you go sealed, the box is smaller and takes up less space. However, you will lose a few dB in SPL over a well tuned Ported box.
Kicker has a very good site for enclosure design applications. The vented slot design is very efficient and can really pack a whollop with a larger amp.
www.kicker.com
http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/03CompVRManual.pdf is the enclosure design section for your sub series.
I was listening to a setup in a Chevy S-10. He had a vent/slot enclosure, dual RF HX2's and power by a HiFonix Brutus 1500D. The box fit right behind the (bucket seats) passenger seat, looked about 4 cf (he did not know) and this pup really pumped out the bass big time at about 45 Hz. The subs faced upward as did the sloted port. The guy must have bought everything at a shop and they installed it too. I say that as he really did not know much about what he had... just like the bass. It was well into the mid 140's dB too.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 23:19:02
there not VR there just comp with single voice coil
swez on 07/18/2004 10:08:24
Got that now... so you have a pair and they are 4 ohm SVC's. The rated RMS power per each is 150 watts. That limits you to about 300-400 watts RMS amping power @ a 2 ohm load.
The good new is, not a huge amp needed here. Something in a Class D MONO amp this size will draw 25-40A of current. The bad news, in a small truck, your SPL #'s will be high 120's to low 130's dB of bass.
If you want more bass power, a 2.0 cf ported (vented) per sub will help. You'll pick up a few extra dB of SPL near the port tuning freq. Anything below the port tuning frequency MUST be filtered out. If not, even at low power, freqs below PTF will destroy your subs.
Basically, you are at a fork in the road:
1. Settle for what you haved now
2. Upgrade to better subs & use a larger amp
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 10:37:36
whats some better subs that are under 5 5/8 depth and under 150$ a piece
swez on 07/18/2004 12:33:17
Adire Shiva will do the job well here. Only 5.125" deep (5-1/8").
Are $125.00 each and will handle 400 watts RMS and more.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/cut%20sheets/Shiva%20Sales%20Brochure.pdf
Swez
PS Not flashy or great looks, but they can do very well in a 1.25 cf sealed/chamber and 600 RMS or more will give a new life to your bass engine.
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 17:18:24
tee hee, no dealers that sell adire around here, any options from like diamond,crossfire, some other brand what if i did put comp VRs in there with another amp how much of a difference would that be swezz
swez on 07/18/2004 18:00:31
Adire sells direct and now has a few disty's too. I made a custom sealed enclosure for a client a while back and tested his Shiva's before I installed same. They sounded very good at 600 RMS into the pair. Really, I would not mention them so highly, if I had not done one myself.
The Comp VR's are a decent SPL sub. They work best in larger sealed or ported enclosures too. Not the worst subs I ever heard... but not even close to the Shiva's in performance at that price.
If you wish to demo a few subs, check out Infinity Kappa or Perfects, Alpine SWR or SWS DVC's. These are very solid SQL subs in moderate sized boxes. The Alpines come in 2+2 & 4+4 DVC's. The 2+2 is best for dual sub applications and a net 2 ohm load.
Alpine SWS 1222D Best Price... $83.00/ea.
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=2039731/search=alpine%20type%20s
Specs:
12" subwoofer
Dual 2-Ohm Voice Coil
Power range: 50-300 watts RMS
Peak power handling: 900 watts
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Frequency Response: 26Hz 1kHz
Kevlar Reinforced Pulp Cone with aluminum finish
High Excursion 3/4 Santopreneฎ Surround
Compound Radius Curve Pole Geometry
Custom High Strength Basket
Bumped Backplate
Extended & Vented Pole
High Strength Brass Voice Coil Bobbin
Heavy Duty 8ga. Push Terminals
Magnetically Optimized Motor Structure
===================================================
Alpine SWR 1221D About $110.00/ea. (lower off e-bay)
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/2027
Specs:
12" subwoofer
Frequency Response: 24Hz 2kHz
Dual 2-ohm Voice Coil Design
Power range: 100-300 watts RMS
Peak power handling: 1,000 watts
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Kevlar Reinforced Pulp Cone
High Excursion 1 Santopreneฎ Surround
Dual Custom Progressive Nomexฎ Spiders
Integrated Tinsel Lead Design
Custom Cast Aluminum Frame
Extra Length Extended Pole
Flared Pole Vent
Bumped Backplate
Heat Transfer Plate
High Strength Brass Voice Coil Bobbin
Double Stacked Magnets
Heavy Duty 8ga. Push Terminals
Oversized Parabolic Dustcap
Magnetically Optimized Motor Structure
===================================================
Here, a 600 RMS @ 2 ohms amp will do well. Kicker, JBL, HiFonics, Rockford and many others will be a good choice.
What amp do you have now for your Kicker Comps?
Swez
Bigeazy4387 on 07/18/2004 18:46:58
racer i would consider getting tube enclosures for a reg cab u can fit like 4 of them and they could give you a nice low end
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 20:40:30
I got the pioneer about 200x2 4 ohm yeh I'd take your word on those shivas, i like the name haha, i do not care much about sql, thats what the tweeters are for, I want loud loud loud, hey what do u think about audiobahn, seems like couple of my friends think they are so great and they think they can smoke me what would be the amount of disapointment with me using those shivas :) and also if i'd get those i would get another amp like that pio that shouold power them nicely. well i gotta get the moneys together to get those for next years comp here, what you think kind of spl could i be getting with 2 of those, 400 watts to each sub 4 ohm and also i will make a box 55 inches wide with a total CU of 2.09 its the best i can do with me siting in it i need my leg roof lol
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 20:45:27
oh yea hey another thing I seen some pictures if somebody would check out my system, im sure most people where i live never heard of adire and they would be like, what kind of subs of those then I'd make them def then theyed never know they would just say thats a sweet system hahaha, I heard of um before and heard good things just not that widespread as some, the price is right i guess, just curious what kinda system do you have, they you compete or what do u do, just curious, i dont know nothing about you
cplkittle on 07/19/2004 01:09:18
Diamond makes a very shallow mount, very efficient, low air volume requirement sub TM3 you can get them in d2 or d4 configurations. These are very nice subs.. not their top of the line, but designed for space limitations.
www.diamondaudio.com
swez on 07/19/2004 09:35:29
Quote: "just curious what kinda system do you have, they you compete or what do u do, just curious, i dont know nothing about you"
My name is Dave and I have been into audio and electronics of all types for more than 30 years. Yeah, am an older guy... but I still think and feel young. Have been on this forum for about 4 years and another for 3. My background is more toward SQL. Being a musician for 15 years, music quality and SPL were the business at hand.
Started in home stereo, move into Pro Audio interests and now expanded to Car audio. My present gear is modest for car audio as there are other things on an older guys plate to shovel money at. I have a nice SQL system in my shop now, and the car gear to be installed is in mothballs until I get a better vehicle. No sense installing this and only to remove it all later.
Shop gear:
Crown 150a Preamp (she's old... but still awesome)
Yamaha Studio Pro 2 channel for mid/highs (50 x 2 RMS)
Peavy Pro CS 800 sub amp (400 RMS/ch... only using 1 channel for now)
12 band Stereo EQ
A pair of 2-way Polk 7b studio monitors
A pair of SoundStream SPL 10's for subs (1.5cf/sub sealed) 4 ohms
Misc Tuner, tape and CD player
My Car stuff in boxes:
Sony CDX-C6850 3 sets RCA outs (a buddy gave it to me)
JBL DA-1002 sub amp... 2 channels (300 RMS @ 4 ohms)
US Acoustics USA-4060.... 4 channel (60 x 4 RMS @ 4 ohms)
1 Pair of Bahn 5.25 Comps for front stage (60 RMS/ea.)
1 Pair of generic 5.25" midbass for rear (70 RMS.ea)
Subs: SoundStream SPL 10's (a pair that take 250 RMS each)
Pending: A DSP/EQ unit of some kind... dunno yet $$$
OK, that's the gear I have now and obviously some to added later. As for background, yes... have done several installs but don't really enjoy the contortionist acts needed to do them any more. Have build many (maybe 20+ by now) enclosures both car and Pro applications. Have a decent bench experience (10 years +, on and off) in equipment electrical repairs to fix what I can for self and others.
As for competition... this hobby is just for my own personal satisfaction. If I'm happy with it... good nuff. If not satisfied, have enough experience to tweak and tinker until I am satisfied. Spare $$ for car audio is hard to come by these days. But will add a few nice toys when I can. Again, this is only for my personal pleasure. However, guys who have heard some of my installs often say... dang... that sounds real goood to me!
This forum has really helped to expose what's out there in new gear and technology. Enjoy helping others to get the most for thier hard earned money. Has taken many hours of research, trial and error and learning from others what works or does not work and why. Would never steer a guy into something that would come back to bite later. That's where all the research and forums come in handy.
So, do I pass muster with you Racer? If not... no problem as there are others here that are very qualified Pro Installers and such. Judging by the feedback we get... many happy campers out there to prove this forum works for most. I find this hobby very challenging and satifying as well. The hard part is passing on appropriate knowledge to others so they can digest it and use it. Communication skills are very important in this game.
Swez
PS How about your story... who is Racer?
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 12:31:49
My name is Josh, I'm 16 just started messin around wiht car audio couple years ago and can't get enough of it just started researching i guess and started learning more and more, I first had some 6.5 inch subwoofers i got from checker auto i think it was and thats how i started, then i got free pyramid subs from a friend, then i got jensens, and then i bought some kickers , so I wanna get better by geting these adire lol I read about 20 reviews of them on the internet and all good things about them no weaknesses, I wanna get my pickup ready for like the annual competition we have here, I dont know if we have anymore its only one i know about so, I live at Mandan,ND maybe 20 sumtin people enter i think next year will be alot more including like 5 of my friends with thier audiobahn crap what do you think of those subs, they think there so good cuz they can handle 1000 watts and they have 200 oz. magnets and all this crap, I wanna prove um wrong, what do you estimate what kind of spl could I get with the shivizas lol
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 12:33:38
one more thing these are dual 4 ohm right? or can you get different, or it that only thing.
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 12:41:34
this is who i wanna smoke, my friend rob is gonna get 2 12 AW1200Q subs he got from ebay that can handle 700 watts dual 4 ohm coilys and he gonna power them with a A8002T amp wants to wire it 800 watts 4 ohm bridged, and then he has a 1975 f100 truck, its a nice truck. with a box about same as im gonna build and then Im wanna get 2 of those adire and then I'll have 2 Pioneer GM-X862 amps which about 380watts briged each 4 ohm for 760 total, who u think will do better
cplkittle on 07/19/2004 18:46:41
It is impossible to compare gear, especially subs, in their raw form. Most of us can build a properly designed box for two 8" subs that will blow away 2 12's in a poorly designed box. It all depends on the size of the car, the type of enclosure and the cleanliness of the signal provided. If you use some type of noise dampener such as dynamat throughout the truck, build the sub box to the exact specs using the recommended materials, and feed the subs they power they ask for, you can blow him away no questions asked.
There is a recommendation that we all give, but no one listens to. I didn't listen to begin with, and I don't expect anyone else to listen either. "Build your sound system for yourself, not to out do others." If you have an extra 5-7 grand laying around to invest in competition equiptment, compete. If not, satisfy your own needs.
Like I said though, we all have to go all out before we settle on what we like personally.
swez on 07/19/2004 19:55:06
Agreed... car audio is a personal preference and we don't have to satisfy anyone but ourselves. If Competing, then ya gotta play by the rules... who needs that?
Dual Shiva's... these are DVC 8+8 coils and combined, each sub will handle ~650 watts per sub in a small sealed enclosure. The main feature of these subs are the long, linear throw they offer. That means deep lows and plenty of it... even with a smaller amp. Nominal input power should be in the 300-800 RMS range. I threw about 300 RMS at them in a quick demo (CS-800 Peavey) and they sounded very good, fresh out of the box.
In your case, 1 sub per amp, bridged is good. The Shiva when wired in parallel is 4 ohm. Perfect fit for a bridged amp. Will you beat a PU with Bahn subs and amps... depends on the install, type of vehicle and enclosure design. If you have a trunk mounted design and no pass through to open the trunk into cabin area, will loose some dB points if SPL is measured at the dash.
Your post header says F-150 so yes, you may be able to outfox your main Competition by careful tweaking and optimizing. Figure out where the vehicle resonance point is and EQ to maximize SPL in that range. An SPL meter would help a lot on this part of the game. Probably in the 55-70 Hz range for your vehicle is a good place to start.
Finally, the Shiva is more for SQL. They can get loud if you have the amping power to drive them to full potential. Will be much better then the Kicker Comps you have now. A smaller sealed or ported enclosure is best for high SPL. If you go ported, tune for about 35-40 Hz. If for competition, a removable port would be great... tuned to about 50 Hz or so. When using this feature, DO NOT run signals below the port tune freq as this will damage most any sub. A special filter will help in Comp applications to block freqs below tuning freq.
Swez
The guy that bought them, used a Sony Class D that pushed ~600 RMS in his Dodge Avenger??? It did sound good for what he spent. But the subs were not broken in yet... so they would sound better after break in time.
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 21:08:56
I'm not sure about that wiring i can make my amp 380 watts 4 ohm bridged how does that work with dual 8 ohm ? and I'm prety sure I'm gonna make it sealed
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 21:58:50
ok nevermind paralel I was looking at series, i'll look into them more, hey swez how good are these subs? bad question but what would you compare them to, what makes um so good?
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 22:00:44
do you think a port is like a must have for competition?
swez on 07/20/2004 10:07:53
For SPL Comps, think you will find most serious players are using vented/ported or bandpass enclosures. The box design, matched well to the woofers used and adequate power, are all keys to high SLP numbers.
I believe you mentioned a pair of Pioineer 2 channel amps here yes? If that's what you have, wire each Shiva at 4 ohms (8//8) per amp and that'll give you the best you can get from this pairing.
The Shiva is a very capable sub. Nothing to look at per-se... but when used in a good enclosure design... a good SQL driver for the money. If you ported them, figure you'll pick up an extra +3dB per sub, near the port tuning freq. (PTF) They were designed for HT applications originally and others then began to use them in car audio with very good results.
In all honesty, this sub is designed for deep lows and moderate power applications. There are better SPL subs out there for about the same price range and higher. The Big brother.... Adire Brahma is the the choice for high SPL applications. Scotty Johnson have been winning SPL Comps on a regular basis with these drivers and huge power amps. I think he had surpassed the 172 dB mark with them and heading for the 175+ range. These are not cheap either... come in 2+2 DVC and rated at 1600 watts each for 10, 12 and 15" designs. A real brute of a sub... but the amps mentioned earlier will not get the most from even a single 10"/amp.
Before you dive in and buy Shiva's, I suggest you contact Adire Tech for some guidance on recommended PTF and enclosure dimensions. They can give you specific tuning data and enclosure dimensions to use. In this SPL application, your PTF will probably be close to 50 Hz. Anything below that frequency will have to be filtered out. Basically, this is a one note wonder application with moderate power amplification available.
Shiva is a very good SQL sub for the money. But if you want to build a pair of boxes, (one for SQL daily driver [sealed] and one for SPL [ported] only) then using these subs would be a good option. Again, inputs from Adire on the SPL box design are highly recommended.
Bahn makes some very good SPL subs. They boast high efficiencies, can get pretty loud, but only average SQL performance. They cost a bit more too. Here, a SVC 4 ohm sub per amp will be fine or a 2+2 DVC design. Sub costs can be lower or higher, depending on the subs you choose.
Here:
1. http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAW121T
Audiobahn AW121T $149.95.ea. 4 ohm SVC, 550 RMS/sub
Subwoofer Specifications
Size: 12 inch
Rec. Sealed Box Dims: 0.75 - 2.00 cu.ft.
Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.30 - 3.20 cu.ft.
Free Air Usage: not recommended
Sensitivity: 92.8 dB
Frequency Response: 26-1000 Hz
Recommended RMS Power: 550W
Peak Power Handling: 1100W
Impedance: 4 ohms subwoofer wiring options
===================================================
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAW120T $129.95/ea.
Audiobahn AW120T
Subwoofer Specifications
Size: 12 inch
Rec. Sealed Box Dims: not recommended
Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.30 - 3.30 cu.ft.
Free Air Usage: not recommended
Sensitivity: 92.8 dB
Frequency Response: 26-1000 Hz
Recommended RMS Power: 500W
Peak Power Handling: 1000W
Impedance: 4 ohms subwoofer wiring options
====================================================
Either of these Bahn subs would be more suitable for pure SPL applications. They will still have good SQ, but mostly designed for SPL applications. The enclosure and amp power makes all the difference.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 11:22:20
do you think they would be a better spl than the adires?? and how can you tune your port, I'm not really sure how it works isnt it just based on the size and lenth, right? you can just do that with a calculator thing is that how is works?
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 11:24:55
o another thing about 3 of my friends that have bahns got em from ebay so alot cheaper and they have endless audiobahn selection on there Ive listened one friends 2 10 inch flame Q with a RF amp hooked up about 400 watts total, he had um in tiny sealed boxes in a regular cab ranger, and I was impressed, I guess I just don't like audiobahn becuase they seem overated to me but maybe I'm wrong
uochronos on 07/20/2004 11:59:43
bahn is very popular because they give all the kids exactly what they want alot of boom to wake everyone up with unfortuantly in a daily driver most people eventualy get tired of the lack of SQ however if your interested in SPL purly then these are a very reasonably priced sub. and they even have preloaded box/sub combos that i hear are pretty good... saw a few of these one ebay bandpass and ported enclosures for under 400$
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 13:46:14
ok im waiting for swez lol
swez on 07/20/2004 19:32:00
I agree with Chronos on this one as well. If you want an SPL Bass machine only and SQ is not an issue, Bahn is a very good, low budget option. It's all about power available to sub, matching the enclosure to sub and porting at the optimal frequency.
Yes, port tuning is based on the woofers' Theil/Small parameters, box size used and size of the port(s). There are guidelines in Bahn's web site that will give you all that detail if you so choose to go Bahn.
As you mentioned, Bahns are cheap off E-bay and you can save some $$ buying off same. Then head on over to the Bahn web site for enclosure details to fit your application. A 4 ohm SVC, 400 watts RMS or higher is more than adequate for the amps mentioned.
Swez
PS I like the Shiva for a solid SQL sub. However, they are designed to go very low for HT applications. They work very well in SQL car audio applications too... but SPL is not their forte. If you wanted a solid daily driver with better than average low end bass, I would definitely recommend the Shiva. However, if you want max SPL... go Bahn.
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 20:58:58
i hear ya, did you mean 4 ohm per coil, because I dont know of any bahns with SVC
A.D.D. on 07/21/2004 03:48:50
you can get 4 8's in a ported box behind the seat....the Resonant Engineering RE 8's are really nice...and at only 50 bucks a piece u cant go wrong...and dont think they arnt good just by looking at the price. go to www.reaudio.com and check them out....and also if u want to order, u order directly from RE, just give them a call and they will help you out
swez on 07/21/2004 10:29:09
Yes, 4 ohm SVC subs for your amps. The Bahn subs I noted in an earlier post (7/20/04 @ 10:07am) are 4 ohm SVC's and they are a very good match for your amps.
If you want DVC subs, make sure you buy the 2+2 version. Here, you can wire them in series for a 4 ohm load and bridge each amp to MONO. If you try to feed your amps anythin g below 4 ohms in MONO bridged mode... the amps will fry or go into protect mode.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/21/2004 12:37:35
ok it seemed like everything on ebay was dvc, maybe not as common model number on ebay, yeh I like RE but too much sql lol
racerbizoehm on 07/21/2004 12:40:44
i think i was searching for DVC ok now i found some AW121T on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48613&item=5711007208&rd=1 126 plus 39 shipping decent im sure i could find cheaper but whats the advantage of dual voice coil?, personally i've never used any before
swez on 07/21/2004 13:48:24
Yes, that's a good sub for this application. The shipping price seems a bit high though and he is not an authorized dealer. If you buy from him, no warrantee. A 20 day warrantee is a joke here.
Advantage of DVC's:
1. Several wiring configurations available
2. More power handling in most cases
3. A bit more challenging to wire properly... but with pix, breeze.
Again, if you find a DVC you like, make sure it is a 2+2 dual coil model. You wire 1 sub to each amp and get 4 ohms. I don't see any DVC 2+2 DVC's in your price range.
Buy here as they are well established and free shipping included:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAWC12T OR
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAW122T
These are the best Bahn subs for your application, in your price range and depth reqirements... (under 6" deep)
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/22/2004 22:15:37
yeh i like those 122T betters, thanks for allllllllllllll! the help lol wow that topic was a long one for picking out some subs, now i gotta get the money out, to be continued...
Bigeazy4387 on 07/22/2004 22:42:20
the loudest system i ever heard in a reg cab was 3 bazooka 10"triangle subs and they are pretty cheap
uochronos on 07/22/2004 23:56:46
bazookas well put out alot of bas but there treiangle subs are very sloppy sounding in all the installs i have heard them in. just an opinion though.
Bigeazy4387 on 07/23/2004 16:03:17
yeh but they are loud no doubting that
racerbizoehm on 07/23/2004 17:07:13
loud isnt that specific alot of subs are loud lol
Replies (43)
Bigeazy4387 on 07/17/2004 12:55:37
venting a box in a reg cab will be really tricky but you could port it with circle ports at the top what size are the subs
uochronos on 07/17/2004 15:20:15
these are extremly small boxes for kicker subs kickers are very space hungry even in sealed enclosures usualy 1.2-2.0 cubic feet per sub sealed.... in a vented aplication usualy 2CuFt per sub or more. these boxes are way to small for ported... also going with 2 of these subs in a larger ported box well get you the same loudness or more then using all 4 in small sealed enclosures.
i'm sure ttocs, swez and kittle can shed a bit more light on why this is and what your best options are.
swez on 07/17/2004 18:16:46
Am afraird you are spinning your wheels on this one Racer. A box that small for each sub will produce very little low bass. The enclosure airspace is what helps develops the bass signals fed to the sub. It might be very loud above 60 Hz or so... but your deep bass will be gone in that size enclosure.
One option to consider, might be a wall design. Here, a flat panel is placed behind the front seats (floor to ceiling, wall to wall) and loaded with subs facing the windshield. Then, each sub had a separate air chamber matched to it's desired airspace. You can use sealed or ported designs this way. The hard part is fabrication of the wall so that it fits tight and does not rattle with bass notes.
If you consider this route, take very careful measurements on your wall and shape. Have enough amping power to drive all subs and this design will really blow you away.
You can even mount your amps behind the wall too. Just make a service panel that you can remove to work on amps etc.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 18:29:51
I dont really want to rip my cab apart i just wanted a loud!!!! system so you think 2 would do the same in right kinda boxes?
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 18:30:55
how could i get more spl out of 2 then thats what i have now but i could proboly make a box to fill up behind seat and get some good air space
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 18:31:55
oh bigeazy there 12 inch kicker comp svc
swez on 07/17/2004 19:35:13
What amp are you running here Racer?
Actually, a pair of CompVR's can get pretty loud in a larger ported enclosure. If you go sealed, the box is smaller and takes up less space. However, you will lose a few dB in SPL over a well tuned Ported box.
Kicker has a very good site for enclosure design applications. The vented slot design is very efficient and can really pack a whollop with a larger amp.
www.kicker.com
http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/03CompVRManual.pdf is the enclosure design section for your sub series.
I was listening to a setup in a Chevy S-10. He had a vent/slot enclosure, dual RF HX2's and power by a HiFonix Brutus 1500D. The box fit right behind the (bucket seats) passenger seat, looked about 4 cf (he did not know) and this pup really pumped out the bass big time at about 45 Hz. The subs faced upward as did the sloted port. The guy must have bought everything at a shop and they installed it too. I say that as he really did not know much about what he had... just like the bass. It was well into the mid 140's dB too.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/17/2004 23:19:02
there not VR there just comp with single voice coil
swez on 07/18/2004 10:08:24
Got that now... so you have a pair and they are 4 ohm SVC's. The rated RMS power per each is 150 watts. That limits you to about 300-400 watts RMS amping power @ a 2 ohm load.
The good new is, not a huge amp needed here. Something in a Class D MONO amp this size will draw 25-40A of current. The bad news, in a small truck, your SPL #'s will be high 120's to low 130's dB of bass.
If you want more bass power, a 2.0 cf ported (vented) per sub will help. You'll pick up a few extra dB of SPL near the port tuning freq. Anything below the port tuning frequency MUST be filtered out. If not, even at low power, freqs below PTF will destroy your subs.
Basically, you are at a fork in the road:
1. Settle for what you haved now
2. Upgrade to better subs & use a larger amp
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 10:37:36
whats some better subs that are under 5 5/8 depth and under 150$ a piece
swez on 07/18/2004 12:33:17
Adire Shiva will do the job well here. Only 5.125" deep (5-1/8").
Are $125.00 each and will handle 400 watts RMS and more.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/cut%20sheets/Shiva%20Sales%20Brochure.pdf
Swez
PS Not flashy or great looks, but they can do very well in a 1.25 cf sealed/chamber and 600 RMS or more will give a new life to your bass engine.
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 17:18:24
tee hee, no dealers that sell adire around here, any options from like diamond,crossfire, some other brand what if i did put comp VRs in there with another amp how much of a difference would that be swezz
swez on 07/18/2004 18:00:31
Adire sells direct and now has a few disty's too. I made a custom sealed enclosure for a client a while back and tested his Shiva's before I installed same. They sounded very good at 600 RMS into the pair. Really, I would not mention them so highly, if I had not done one myself.
The Comp VR's are a decent SPL sub. They work best in larger sealed or ported enclosures too. Not the worst subs I ever heard... but not even close to the Shiva's in performance at that price.
If you wish to demo a few subs, check out Infinity Kappa or Perfects, Alpine SWR or SWS DVC's. These are very solid SQL subs in moderate sized boxes. The Alpines come in 2+2 & 4+4 DVC's. The 2+2 is best for dual sub applications and a net 2 ohm load.
Alpine SWS 1222D Best Price... $83.00/ea.
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=2039731/search=alpine%20type%20s
Specs:
12" subwoofer
Dual 2-Ohm Voice Coil
Power range: 50-300 watts RMS
Peak power handling: 900 watts
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Frequency Response: 26Hz 1kHz
Kevlar Reinforced Pulp Cone with aluminum finish
High Excursion 3/4 Santopreneฎ Surround
Compound Radius Curve Pole Geometry
Custom High Strength Basket
Bumped Backplate
Extended & Vented Pole
High Strength Brass Voice Coil Bobbin
Heavy Duty 8ga. Push Terminals
Magnetically Optimized Motor Structure
===================================================
Alpine SWR 1221D About $110.00/ea. (lower off e-bay)
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/2027
Specs:
12" subwoofer
Frequency Response: 24Hz 2kHz
Dual 2-ohm Voice Coil Design
Power range: 100-300 watts RMS
Peak power handling: 1,000 watts
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Kevlar Reinforced Pulp Cone
High Excursion 1 Santopreneฎ Surround
Dual Custom Progressive Nomexฎ Spiders
Integrated Tinsel Lead Design
Custom Cast Aluminum Frame
Extra Length Extended Pole
Flared Pole Vent
Bumped Backplate
Heat Transfer Plate
High Strength Brass Voice Coil Bobbin
Double Stacked Magnets
Heavy Duty 8ga. Push Terminals
Oversized Parabolic Dustcap
Magnetically Optimized Motor Structure
===================================================
Here, a 600 RMS @ 2 ohms amp will do well. Kicker, JBL, HiFonics, Rockford and many others will be a good choice.
What amp do you have now for your Kicker Comps?
Swez
Bigeazy4387 on 07/18/2004 18:46:58
racer i would consider getting tube enclosures for a reg cab u can fit like 4 of them and they could give you a nice low end
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 20:40:30
I got the pioneer about 200x2 4 ohm yeh I'd take your word on those shivas, i like the name haha, i do not care much about sql, thats what the tweeters are for, I want loud loud loud, hey what do u think about audiobahn, seems like couple of my friends think they are so great and they think they can smoke me what would be the amount of disapointment with me using those shivas :) and also if i'd get those i would get another amp like that pio that shouold power them nicely. well i gotta get the moneys together to get those for next years comp here, what you think kind of spl could i be getting with 2 of those, 400 watts to each sub 4 ohm and also i will make a box 55 inches wide with a total CU of 2.09 its the best i can do with me siting in it i need my leg roof lol
racerbizoehm on 07/18/2004 20:45:27
oh yea hey another thing I seen some pictures if somebody would check out my system, im sure most people where i live never heard of adire and they would be like, what kind of subs of those then I'd make them def then theyed never know they would just say thats a sweet system hahaha, I heard of um before and heard good things just not that widespread as some, the price is right i guess, just curious what kinda system do you have, they you compete or what do u do, just curious, i dont know nothing about you
cplkittle on 07/19/2004 01:09:18
Diamond makes a very shallow mount, very efficient, low air volume requirement sub TM3 you can get them in d2 or d4 configurations. These are very nice subs.. not their top of the line, but designed for space limitations.
www.diamondaudio.com
swez on 07/19/2004 09:35:29
Quote: "just curious what kinda system do you have, they you compete or what do u do, just curious, i dont know nothing about you"
My name is Dave and I have been into audio and electronics of all types for more than 30 years. Yeah, am an older guy... but I still think and feel young. Have been on this forum for about 4 years and another for 3. My background is more toward SQL. Being a musician for 15 years, music quality and SPL were the business at hand.
Started in home stereo, move into Pro Audio interests and now expanded to Car audio. My present gear is modest for car audio as there are other things on an older guys plate to shovel money at. I have a nice SQL system in my shop now, and the car gear to be installed is in mothballs until I get a better vehicle. No sense installing this and only to remove it all later.
Shop gear:
Crown 150a Preamp (she's old... but still awesome)
Yamaha Studio Pro 2 channel for mid/highs (50 x 2 RMS)
Peavy Pro CS 800 sub amp (400 RMS/ch... only using 1 channel for now)
12 band Stereo EQ
A pair of 2-way Polk 7b studio monitors
A pair of SoundStream SPL 10's for subs (1.5cf/sub sealed) 4 ohms
Misc Tuner, tape and CD player
My Car stuff in boxes:
Sony CDX-C6850 3 sets RCA outs (a buddy gave it to me)
JBL DA-1002 sub amp... 2 channels (300 RMS @ 4 ohms)
US Acoustics USA-4060.... 4 channel (60 x 4 RMS @ 4 ohms)
1 Pair of Bahn 5.25 Comps for front stage (60 RMS/ea.)
1 Pair of generic 5.25" midbass for rear (70 RMS.ea)
Subs: SoundStream SPL 10's (a pair that take 250 RMS each)
Pending: A DSP/EQ unit of some kind... dunno yet $$$
OK, that's the gear I have now and obviously some to added later. As for background, yes... have done several installs but don't really enjoy the contortionist acts needed to do them any more. Have build many (maybe 20+ by now) enclosures both car and Pro applications. Have a decent bench experience (10 years +, on and off) in equipment electrical repairs to fix what I can for self and others.
As for competition... this hobby is just for my own personal satisfaction. If I'm happy with it... good nuff. If not satisfied, have enough experience to tweak and tinker until I am satisfied. Spare $$ for car audio is hard to come by these days. But will add a few nice toys when I can. Again, this is only for my personal pleasure. However, guys who have heard some of my installs often say... dang... that sounds real goood to me!
This forum has really helped to expose what's out there in new gear and technology. Enjoy helping others to get the most for thier hard earned money. Has taken many hours of research, trial and error and learning from others what works or does not work and why. Would never steer a guy into something that would come back to bite later. That's where all the research and forums come in handy.
So, do I pass muster with you Racer? If not... no problem as there are others here that are very qualified Pro Installers and such. Judging by the feedback we get... many happy campers out there to prove this forum works for most. I find this hobby very challenging and satifying as well. The hard part is passing on appropriate knowledge to others so they can digest it and use it. Communication skills are very important in this game.
Swez
PS How about your story... who is Racer?
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 12:31:49
My name is Josh, I'm 16 just started messin around wiht car audio couple years ago and can't get enough of it just started researching i guess and started learning more and more, I first had some 6.5 inch subwoofers i got from checker auto i think it was and thats how i started, then i got free pyramid subs from a friend, then i got jensens, and then i bought some kickers , so I wanna get better by geting these adire lol I read about 20 reviews of them on the internet and all good things about them no weaknesses, I wanna get my pickup ready for like the annual competition we have here, I dont know if we have anymore its only one i know about so, I live at Mandan,ND maybe 20 sumtin people enter i think next year will be alot more including like 5 of my friends with thier audiobahn crap what do you think of those subs, they think there so good cuz they can handle 1000 watts and they have 200 oz. magnets and all this crap, I wanna prove um wrong, what do you estimate what kind of spl could I get with the shivizas lol
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 12:33:38
one more thing these are dual 4 ohm right? or can you get different, or it that only thing.
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 12:41:34
this is who i wanna smoke, my friend rob is gonna get 2 12 AW1200Q subs he got from ebay that can handle 700 watts dual 4 ohm coilys and he gonna power them with a A8002T amp wants to wire it 800 watts 4 ohm bridged, and then he has a 1975 f100 truck, its a nice truck. with a box about same as im gonna build and then Im wanna get 2 of those adire and then I'll have 2 Pioneer GM-X862 amps which about 380watts briged each 4 ohm for 760 total, who u think will do better
cplkittle on 07/19/2004 18:46:41
It is impossible to compare gear, especially subs, in their raw form. Most of us can build a properly designed box for two 8" subs that will blow away 2 12's in a poorly designed box. It all depends on the size of the car, the type of enclosure and the cleanliness of the signal provided. If you use some type of noise dampener such as dynamat throughout the truck, build the sub box to the exact specs using the recommended materials, and feed the subs they power they ask for, you can blow him away no questions asked.
There is a recommendation that we all give, but no one listens to. I didn't listen to begin with, and I don't expect anyone else to listen either. "Build your sound system for yourself, not to out do others." If you have an extra 5-7 grand laying around to invest in competition equiptment, compete. If not, satisfy your own needs.
Like I said though, we all have to go all out before we settle on what we like personally.
swez on 07/19/2004 19:55:06
Agreed... car audio is a personal preference and we don't have to satisfy anyone but ourselves. If Competing, then ya gotta play by the rules... who needs that?
Dual Shiva's... these are DVC 8+8 coils and combined, each sub will handle ~650 watts per sub in a small sealed enclosure. The main feature of these subs are the long, linear throw they offer. That means deep lows and plenty of it... even with a smaller amp. Nominal input power should be in the 300-800 RMS range. I threw about 300 RMS at them in a quick demo (CS-800 Peavey) and they sounded very good, fresh out of the box.
In your case, 1 sub per amp, bridged is good. The Shiva when wired in parallel is 4 ohm. Perfect fit for a bridged amp. Will you beat a PU with Bahn subs and amps... depends on the install, type of vehicle and enclosure design. If you have a trunk mounted design and no pass through to open the trunk into cabin area, will loose some dB points if SPL is measured at the dash.
Your post header says F-150 so yes, you may be able to outfox your main Competition by careful tweaking and optimizing. Figure out where the vehicle resonance point is and EQ to maximize SPL in that range. An SPL meter would help a lot on this part of the game. Probably in the 55-70 Hz range for your vehicle is a good place to start.
Finally, the Shiva is more for SQL. They can get loud if you have the amping power to drive them to full potential. Will be much better then the Kicker Comps you have now. A smaller sealed or ported enclosure is best for high SPL. If you go ported, tune for about 35-40 Hz. If for competition, a removable port would be great... tuned to about 50 Hz or so. When using this feature, DO NOT run signals below the port tune freq as this will damage most any sub. A special filter will help in Comp applications to block freqs below tuning freq.
Swez
The guy that bought them, used a Sony Class D that pushed ~600 RMS in his Dodge Avenger??? It did sound good for what he spent. But the subs were not broken in yet... so they would sound better after break in time.
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 21:08:56
I'm not sure about that wiring i can make my amp 380 watts 4 ohm bridged how does that work with dual 8 ohm ? and I'm prety sure I'm gonna make it sealed
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 21:58:50
ok nevermind paralel I was looking at series, i'll look into them more, hey swez how good are these subs? bad question but what would you compare them to, what makes um so good?
racerbizoehm on 07/19/2004 22:00:44
do you think a port is like a must have for competition?
swez on 07/20/2004 10:07:53
For SPL Comps, think you will find most serious players are using vented/ported or bandpass enclosures. The box design, matched well to the woofers used and adequate power, are all keys to high SLP numbers.
I believe you mentioned a pair of Pioineer 2 channel amps here yes? If that's what you have, wire each Shiva at 4 ohms (8//8) per amp and that'll give you the best you can get from this pairing.
The Shiva is a very capable sub. Nothing to look at per-se... but when used in a good enclosure design... a good SQL driver for the money. If you ported them, figure you'll pick up an extra +3dB per sub, near the port tuning freq. (PTF) They were designed for HT applications originally and others then began to use them in car audio with very good results.
In all honesty, this sub is designed for deep lows and moderate power applications. There are better SPL subs out there for about the same price range and higher. The Big brother.... Adire Brahma is the the choice for high SPL applications. Scotty Johnson have been winning SPL Comps on a regular basis with these drivers and huge power amps. I think he had surpassed the 172 dB mark with them and heading for the 175+ range. These are not cheap either... come in 2+2 DVC and rated at 1600 watts each for 10, 12 and 15" designs. A real brute of a sub... but the amps mentioned earlier will not get the most from even a single 10"/amp.
Before you dive in and buy Shiva's, I suggest you contact Adire Tech for some guidance on recommended PTF and enclosure dimensions. They can give you specific tuning data and enclosure dimensions to use. In this SPL application, your PTF will probably be close to 50 Hz. Anything below that frequency will have to be filtered out. Basically, this is a one note wonder application with moderate power amplification available.
Shiva is a very good SQL sub for the money. But if you want to build a pair of boxes, (one for SQL daily driver [sealed] and one for SPL [ported] only) then using these subs would be a good option. Again, inputs from Adire on the SPL box design are highly recommended.
Bahn makes some very good SPL subs. They boast high efficiencies, can get pretty loud, but only average SQL performance. They cost a bit more too. Here, a SVC 4 ohm sub per amp will be fine or a 2+2 DVC design. Sub costs can be lower or higher, depending on the subs you choose.
Here:
1. http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAW121T
Audiobahn AW121T $149.95.ea. 4 ohm SVC, 550 RMS/sub
Subwoofer Specifications
Size: 12 inch
Rec. Sealed Box Dims: 0.75 - 2.00 cu.ft.
Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.30 - 3.20 cu.ft.
Free Air Usage: not recommended
Sensitivity: 92.8 dB
Frequency Response: 26-1000 Hz
Recommended RMS Power: 550W
Peak Power Handling: 1100W
Impedance: 4 ohms subwoofer wiring options
===================================================
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAW120T $129.95/ea.
Audiobahn AW120T
Subwoofer Specifications
Size: 12 inch
Rec. Sealed Box Dims: not recommended
Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.30 - 3.30 cu.ft.
Free Air Usage: not recommended
Sensitivity: 92.8 dB
Frequency Response: 26-1000 Hz
Recommended RMS Power: 500W
Peak Power Handling: 1000W
Impedance: 4 ohms subwoofer wiring options
====================================================
Either of these Bahn subs would be more suitable for pure SPL applications. They will still have good SQ, but mostly designed for SPL applications. The enclosure and amp power makes all the difference.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 11:22:20
do you think they would be a better spl than the adires?? and how can you tune your port, I'm not really sure how it works isnt it just based on the size and lenth, right? you can just do that with a calculator thing is that how is works?
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 11:24:55
o another thing about 3 of my friends that have bahns got em from ebay so alot cheaper and they have endless audiobahn selection on there Ive listened one friends 2 10 inch flame Q with a RF amp hooked up about 400 watts total, he had um in tiny sealed boxes in a regular cab ranger, and I was impressed, I guess I just don't like audiobahn becuase they seem overated to me but maybe I'm wrong
uochronos on 07/20/2004 11:59:43
bahn is very popular because they give all the kids exactly what they want alot of boom to wake everyone up with unfortuantly in a daily driver most people eventualy get tired of the lack of SQ however if your interested in SPL purly then these are a very reasonably priced sub. and they even have preloaded box/sub combos that i hear are pretty good... saw a few of these one ebay bandpass and ported enclosures for under 400$
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 13:46:14
ok im waiting for swez lol
swez on 07/20/2004 19:32:00
I agree with Chronos on this one as well. If you want an SPL Bass machine only and SQ is not an issue, Bahn is a very good, low budget option. It's all about power available to sub, matching the enclosure to sub and porting at the optimal frequency.
Yes, port tuning is based on the woofers' Theil/Small parameters, box size used and size of the port(s). There are guidelines in Bahn's web site that will give you all that detail if you so choose to go Bahn.
As you mentioned, Bahns are cheap off E-bay and you can save some $$ buying off same. Then head on over to the Bahn web site for enclosure details to fit your application. A 4 ohm SVC, 400 watts RMS or higher is more than adequate for the amps mentioned.
Swez
PS I like the Shiva for a solid SQL sub. However, they are designed to go very low for HT applications. They work very well in SQL car audio applications too... but SPL is not their forte. If you wanted a solid daily driver with better than average low end bass, I would definitely recommend the Shiva. However, if you want max SPL... go Bahn.
racerbizoehm on 07/20/2004 20:58:58
i hear ya, did you mean 4 ohm per coil, because I dont know of any bahns with SVC
A.D.D. on 07/21/2004 03:48:50
you can get 4 8's in a ported box behind the seat....the Resonant Engineering RE 8's are really nice...and at only 50 bucks a piece u cant go wrong...and dont think they arnt good just by looking at the price. go to www.reaudio.com and check them out....and also if u want to order, u order directly from RE, just give them a call and they will help you out
swez on 07/21/2004 10:29:09
Yes, 4 ohm SVC subs for your amps. The Bahn subs I noted in an earlier post (7/20/04 @ 10:07am) are 4 ohm SVC's and they are a very good match for your amps.
If you want DVC subs, make sure you buy the 2+2 version. Here, you can wire them in series for a 4 ohm load and bridge each amp to MONO. If you try to feed your amps anythin g below 4 ohms in MONO bridged mode... the amps will fry or go into protect mode.
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/21/2004 12:37:35
ok it seemed like everything on ebay was dvc, maybe not as common model number on ebay, yeh I like RE but too much sql lol
racerbizoehm on 07/21/2004 12:40:44
i think i was searching for DVC ok now i found some AW121T on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48613&item=5711007208&rd=1 126 plus 39 shipping decent im sure i could find cheaper but whats the advantage of dual voice coil?, personally i've never used any before
swez on 07/21/2004 13:48:24
Yes, that's a good sub for this application. The shipping price seems a bit high though and he is not an authorized dealer. If you buy from him, no warrantee. A 20 day warrantee is a joke here.
Advantage of DVC's:
1. Several wiring configurations available
2. More power handling in most cases
3. A bit more challenging to wire properly... but with pix, breeze.
Again, if you find a DVC you like, make sure it is a 2+2 dual coil model. You wire 1 sub to each amp and get 4 ohms. I don't see any DVC 2+2 DVC's in your price range.
Buy here as they are well established and free shipping included:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAWC12T OR
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNAW122T
These are the best Bahn subs for your application, in your price range and depth reqirements... (under 6" deep)
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/22/2004 22:15:37
yeh i like those 122T betters, thanks for allllllllllllll! the help lol wow that topic was a long one for picking out some subs, now i gotta get the money out, to be continued...
Bigeazy4387 on 07/22/2004 22:42:20
the loudest system i ever heard in a reg cab was 3 bazooka 10"triangle subs and they are pretty cheap
uochronos on 07/22/2004 23:56:46
bazookas well put out alot of bas but there treiangle subs are very sloppy sounding in all the installs i have heard them in. just an opinion though.
Bigeazy4387 on 07/23/2004 16:03:17
yeh but they are loud no doubting that
racerbizoehm on 07/23/2004 17:07:13
loud isnt that specific alot of subs are loud lol
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