I'm looking to update my low end. Driving a '99 suburban. I was thinking of going with two 10" Infinity 10.1d's.
Specs:
RMS=350W
Peak Power Handling = 1400W
Dual 4 ohms
Many questions.
1.) Do the dual voice coil sub's provide better bass? what are the advantages of the dual?
2.) Need a good amp to go with these subs.
a.) Should I go with a single amp or two amps? Is there an advantage one or two?
b.) I assume I should be looking for a single with amp rated for 700W or two at 350? Please confirm.
c.) Any suggestions on an amp? I don't much about this stuff, yet, but I assume that a mono Class D is what I'm looking for?
3.) I don't want to underpower my sub's, but can I blow my subs by overpowering them? For instance, if I buy a single amp rated at 1000W will it cause damage?
Thats enough to get started. I'll have more questions later, I'm sure.
Replies (12)
compvr15s on 07/17/2004 03:33:43
good choice on subs. as far as amps go, you would be better of going with just one amp here. will dramatically help your electrical system as well as your wallet. single voice coil vs. dual. not much of a difference other than you get more wiring options with dual vc subs, makes things nice and easy. it is best to buy subs that will match the optimum output of your amp. so if you go with dual 2 ohm subs you will want an amp that is 2ohm stable. class d here is the way to go, way more efficient then the a/b style amp. a few choices here would be jbl 600.1, kicker 600.1. if you went with dual 4 omh subs you would want an amp that is 1 ohm stable. here again the jbl 600.1 is good choice( 1or 2 ohm stable 600watts.) you could always go with a 2 channel amp, but class d would be a better way to go. the 600.1 is under rated from jbl so you would more than likely see prbbably 650 to 700 watts from the amp. it is ok to under power the subs as long you are gains are set ok and your amp is not clipping, it is ok to meet or exceed the rms watts givin by the sub as long as you dont go overboard. for example is you have a single 250 watt sub and are running 200 watts of distorted power the sub will more than likey sound horrible and fail sooner or later. if you are feeding it of 300 watts of clean high signal power that sub is going to sound excellent and last much longer than the other one would. when choosing an amp make sure to go by the rms watts giving at a certain voltage reading. many companies like to over rate thier equipment by showing power readings at 14.4 volts or higher, well your car is not going to supply that for a constant givin time. look for equipment that is rated at 12.5 or around that range. not saying dont get something rated at 14.4 just dont expect that from your cars electrical system.
so too sum up my non sence, you would be safe gettin either dual 2 or 4 ohm voice coil subs if you went with the jbl 600.1 class d amp. if you go with the dual 2 omh subs you will want an amp this atleast 2 ohms stable, in which most class d subs will be. and just be smart on choosing an amp. if you find some you like, post them and maybe we can filter out any bad choices. we are here to help you get quality gear at the lowest possible cost. we dont bash other's gear here we just know what the good products are. i would trust most of these guys' opinions on even products that i have no experience with. good luck with your system, any more questions just ask, i will be glad to help out with whatever i can. am sure other will fill in if i let anything out or misinformed. sorry about the length of the post just had a lot of ideas popping up in my head.
swez on 07/17/2004 08:41:43
If you go with DVC's, a pair of 4+4 coils will net either 1 or 4 ohms, depending on wiring used. A pair of 2+2 coils may be better here as you can use most Class D amps that are only 2 ohm stable. Here, you get 0.5 or 2.0 ohms, depending on wiring. I'd go with a pair 2+2 DVC's or a pair of single coil, 4 ohms subs in parallel. I don't believe Infinity makes any 2+2 DVC's yet. But Alpine and others do as well.
As for sub like you mentioned, consider these:
1. Alpine SWR-1021D 10" Type-R Series 2+2 DVC (300 RMS)
2. Alpine SWS-1022D 10" Type-S Series 2+2 (300 RMS)
3. JBL GTO1020 10" sub, 4 ohm SVC (300 RMS)
As for amps, as mentioned earlier, Kicker 600D, JBL BP-600.1, HiFonics, RF.
Here's a short list of 1 ohm stable amps, if you choose to stay with Infinity 4+4 subs:
It is hard to find a cheap, but potent MONO amp that is 1 ohm stable for under $300.00 (USD) E-bay will probably be your best bet for lowest cost of better quality amps.
1. ***.1/2 JBL BP 600.1 +600 RMS @ 1 ohms (~$219.00 off e-bay)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18797&item=5706975172&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
2. *** Ultimate Digitalis DD1-1300S, ($180.00) a lot more power than you need here... but cheap.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ULTDD11300S
3. **** HiFonics Warrior Merlin (Sale! $154.95) 450 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFMERLIN
4. **** ORION 600D (~$300.00) 600 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.justamps.com/Amp_Pages/Orion/Orion_amps.htm
5. ****Autotek SS-800X ($290.00) 750 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=634
Rating system I use:
* = poor quality
** = average performance & features
*** = above average performance & features
**** = the good stuff (You pay more baby)
***** = Primo gear (you get & pay more)
Swez
Bigeazy4387 on 07/17/2004 12:49:17
just to add my 2 cents,i would consider the jbl's that swez mentioned as they are meant for bigger boxes that are meant for bigger vehicles. a ported box in a bourbon would have a really nice tone
bearman on 07/18/2004 12:27:10
Excellent help as always guys. I was considering the Infinity's because I'm planning to put the 10's in Q-logic boxes (QL-C1SYT110D B16 ) which fit into the back doors of the 'burban and suggest 0.65 cu.ft. of sealed volume. Has anyone used these boxes?
swez on 07/18/2004 12:36:58
Pretty small airspace for most 10's to do the lows well. Most 10's will manage punchy bass in this size, but if you like deep bass too, a larger enclosure (.85 cf) will do the trick.
Swez
PS If you choose these Q-Logics, stuff the heck out of them with polyfill for a little better low end bass. About 1 lb per sub.
bearman on 07/18/2004 15:54:33
I'm trying to keep the functunality of the vehicle, which means, no big boxes in the back. By polyfill, you mean the same stuff they stuff pillows with?
I was, however, thinking of putting a 12" in the back as well to help with the low end. These 10's are rated at 18 - 150 Hz. The 12" I'm going to put in a box, any suggestions, maybe to cover the areas the 10's won't hit well?
uochronos on 07/18/2004 16:15:49
the 10's may be rated at 18-150 hx but in the 1 box they might only cover 70-150 in another box they may only get 25-80 well.... the box design is really 50% of the battle.....
yes poly fill is just pillow stuffing you can usualy pick it up at walmart or a sewing store for really cheap...
i personaly have no experience with mixing differnt sized woofer so i well leave that for someone else./
swez on 07/18/2004 16:59:14
Bearman,
I understand your interest here and yes, the pillow stuffing should help get better lows out of your 10's. Yes, 18 - 150 Hz is what the sub can reproduce. But how much SPL at 35 - 80Hz is what you are after.
Small enclosures, tend to greatly reduce output SPL in the below 50 Hz range as the bass wave cannot be properly reproduced. In very general terms, the larger the enclosure, the more low end bass we get... within the parameteres recommended by the MFG.
An Additional 12" or even 15" sub can be added. This is done in HT and Pro sound applications frequently. Placement of the larger sub and phase relationship to the door 10's will be keys to excellent low end and midbass performance. The larger sub, in a larger enclosure can be set to operate at very low frequencies (say 25-60 Hz) and the 10's can be setup to operate between 60 - ? whatever cutoff point is needed.
Swez
PS The larger sub you choose should be based on space you are willing to give up for the box and amp power to drive it. Say more on that issue and we can give you some suggestions.
bearman on 07/18/2004 23:04:44
Well, the 10's I had planned to purchase (the Infinity's) are recommended for 0.60 cu.ft. sealed. The Q-logic boxes are 0.65 cu.ft. so assume that the response levels should be close to what is stated.
As for the 12, I'm planning to put that in the space now held by the spare tire, interior spare in the '99. So, I have quite a bit of space for the box, but I want to limit it to a reasonable amount. I don't have a sub to run it yet, but any suggestions are appreciated. More to the point, I want to match up the 12 to hit in the spots the 10's can't reach or can't reach effectively.
Bearman
asplundher on 07/18/2004 23:26:18
Before you possibly complicate the original planned setup without first listening to it; I would try the two 10's. One fine point we all tend to forget mostly is transfer function. If that is heavily taken into consideration, it is very likely that they will provide what is needed for your preference.
Example: A cousin of mine kept saying that he wanted better bass than what he had (2 JL 10's sealed) in his Tahoe. He thought he should go for larger ones. I then lent him two similar power 8's in a ported enclosure that blew away the tens in frequency response with similar spl.
In short, bigger and/or more is not always better. See what the Infinity's will do first before adding to them.
cplkittle on 07/19/2004 01:34:59
Also invest in a good xover. You need to seperate the frequencies of each size. The best sq vehicle I have seen was one with 4 eights and one 15. the eights were set at a bandpass of 80-180hz, and the 15 from 20-70hz. The gap of 10hz betweent the two could not be heard due to the use of 12dB/octave filters. It had a very clean sound top to bottom. it was in an '02 or '03 denali.. can't quite remember the year.
swez on 07/19/2004 08:42:11
Good point... try your initial plan of dual 10's and see how it goes. Transfer function in a large vehicle can be a major boost to low end response, even in a compact enclosure design.
If that does not give the results after tweaking and tuning, then adding a larger sub as mentioned, would be a logical step. The trick here, is to blend them together for a well balanced sound, having adequate filtering as Kittle mentioned and finding the optimal phase relationship between all subs. Cross that bridge when you see a need to go there.
Looking ahead, amping all this could present some challenges too. The 10.1d's give you a net 1 or 4 ohm option. A mono amp that is stable at 1 ohm will be a good target for the 10.1d's. Even if you did add a 12 later, the 10's can be rewired to 4 ohms and a 4 ohm 12" (2+2 or 8+8 DVC will work too) is your best option. The net result would be a perfect 2 ohm load.
Yes, can use dual amps here if you wish or even a 2 channel amp would work. But getting a good 2 channel powerful enough for all subs will be a major strain on the electricals. A Class T type, 2 channel amp would be a very good solution here. Question here being, how much power per channel is enough. The 2 channel option gives you opportunity for electronic crossovers to each sub group.
Sorry to load you up with excess details now. Just thinking ahead to avoid problems that could block your progress or cost you much more later. A fair amount of thought needs to be put into this design up front to avoid unexpected issues later. It seems that you are thinking ahead
and that is exactly what is needed. Impulse buying gets many a guy in deep weeds and poor outcome.
Keep sharing your thoughts,
Swez
Specs:
RMS=350W
Peak Power Handling = 1400W
Dual 4 ohms
Many questions.
1.) Do the dual voice coil sub's provide better bass? what are the advantages of the dual?
2.) Need a good amp to go with these subs.
a.) Should I go with a single amp or two amps? Is there an advantage one or two?
b.) I assume I should be looking for a single with amp rated for 700W or two at 350? Please confirm.
c.) Any suggestions on an amp? I don't much about this stuff, yet, but I assume that a mono Class D is what I'm looking for?
3.) I don't want to underpower my sub's, but can I blow my subs by overpowering them? For instance, if I buy a single amp rated at 1000W will it cause damage?
Thats enough to get started. I'll have more questions later, I'm sure.
Replies (12)
compvr15s on 07/17/2004 03:33:43
good choice on subs. as far as amps go, you would be better of going with just one amp here. will dramatically help your electrical system as well as your wallet. single voice coil vs. dual. not much of a difference other than you get more wiring options with dual vc subs, makes things nice and easy. it is best to buy subs that will match the optimum output of your amp. so if you go with dual 2 ohm subs you will want an amp that is 2ohm stable. class d here is the way to go, way more efficient then the a/b style amp. a few choices here would be jbl 600.1, kicker 600.1. if you went with dual 4 omh subs you would want an amp that is 1 ohm stable. here again the jbl 600.1 is good choice( 1or 2 ohm stable 600watts.) you could always go with a 2 channel amp, but class d would be a better way to go. the 600.1 is under rated from jbl so you would more than likely see prbbably 650 to 700 watts from the amp. it is ok to under power the subs as long you are gains are set ok and your amp is not clipping, it is ok to meet or exceed the rms watts givin by the sub as long as you dont go overboard. for example is you have a single 250 watt sub and are running 200 watts of distorted power the sub will more than likey sound horrible and fail sooner or later. if you are feeding it of 300 watts of clean high signal power that sub is going to sound excellent and last much longer than the other one would. when choosing an amp make sure to go by the rms watts giving at a certain voltage reading. many companies like to over rate thier equipment by showing power readings at 14.4 volts or higher, well your car is not going to supply that for a constant givin time. look for equipment that is rated at 12.5 or around that range. not saying dont get something rated at 14.4 just dont expect that from your cars electrical system.
so too sum up my non sence, you would be safe gettin either dual 2 or 4 ohm voice coil subs if you went with the jbl 600.1 class d amp. if you go with the dual 2 omh subs you will want an amp this atleast 2 ohms stable, in which most class d subs will be. and just be smart on choosing an amp. if you find some you like, post them and maybe we can filter out any bad choices. we are here to help you get quality gear at the lowest possible cost. we dont bash other's gear here we just know what the good products are. i would trust most of these guys' opinions on even products that i have no experience with. good luck with your system, any more questions just ask, i will be glad to help out with whatever i can. am sure other will fill in if i let anything out or misinformed. sorry about the length of the post just had a lot of ideas popping up in my head.
swez on 07/17/2004 08:41:43
If you go with DVC's, a pair of 4+4 coils will net either 1 or 4 ohms, depending on wiring used. A pair of 2+2 coils may be better here as you can use most Class D amps that are only 2 ohm stable. Here, you get 0.5 or 2.0 ohms, depending on wiring. I'd go with a pair 2+2 DVC's or a pair of single coil, 4 ohms subs in parallel. I don't believe Infinity makes any 2+2 DVC's yet. But Alpine and others do as well.
As for sub like you mentioned, consider these:
1. Alpine SWR-1021D 10" Type-R Series 2+2 DVC (300 RMS)
2. Alpine SWS-1022D 10" Type-S Series 2+2 (300 RMS)
3. JBL GTO1020 10" sub, 4 ohm SVC (300 RMS)
As for amps, as mentioned earlier, Kicker 600D, JBL BP-600.1, HiFonics, RF.
Here's a short list of 1 ohm stable amps, if you choose to stay with Infinity 4+4 subs:
It is hard to find a cheap, but potent MONO amp that is 1 ohm stable for under $300.00 (USD) E-bay will probably be your best bet for lowest cost of better quality amps.
1. ***.1/2 JBL BP 600.1 +600 RMS @ 1 ohms (~$219.00 off e-bay)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18797&item=5706975172&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
2. *** Ultimate Digitalis DD1-1300S, ($180.00) a lot more power than you need here... but cheap.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ULTDD11300S
3. **** HiFonics Warrior Merlin (Sale! $154.95) 450 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFMERLIN
4. **** ORION 600D (~$300.00) 600 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.justamps.com/Amp_Pages/Orion/Orion_amps.htm
5. ****Autotek SS-800X ($290.00) 750 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=634
Rating system I use:
* = poor quality
** = average performance & features
*** = above average performance & features
**** = the good stuff (You pay more baby)
***** = Primo gear (you get & pay more)
Swez
Bigeazy4387 on 07/17/2004 12:49:17
just to add my 2 cents,i would consider the jbl's that swez mentioned as they are meant for bigger boxes that are meant for bigger vehicles. a ported box in a bourbon would have a really nice tone
bearman on 07/18/2004 12:27:10
Excellent help as always guys. I was considering the Infinity's because I'm planning to put the 10's in Q-logic boxes (QL-C1SYT110D B16 ) which fit into the back doors of the 'burban and suggest 0.65 cu.ft. of sealed volume. Has anyone used these boxes?
swez on 07/18/2004 12:36:58
Pretty small airspace for most 10's to do the lows well. Most 10's will manage punchy bass in this size, but if you like deep bass too, a larger enclosure (.85 cf) will do the trick.
Swez
PS If you choose these Q-Logics, stuff the heck out of them with polyfill for a little better low end bass. About 1 lb per sub.
bearman on 07/18/2004 15:54:33
I'm trying to keep the functunality of the vehicle, which means, no big boxes in the back. By polyfill, you mean the same stuff they stuff pillows with?
I was, however, thinking of putting a 12" in the back as well to help with the low end. These 10's are rated at 18 - 150 Hz. The 12" I'm going to put in a box, any suggestions, maybe to cover the areas the 10's won't hit well?
uochronos on 07/18/2004 16:15:49
the 10's may be rated at 18-150 hx but in the 1 box they might only cover 70-150 in another box they may only get 25-80 well.... the box design is really 50% of the battle.....
yes poly fill is just pillow stuffing you can usualy pick it up at walmart or a sewing store for really cheap...
i personaly have no experience with mixing differnt sized woofer so i well leave that for someone else./
swez on 07/18/2004 16:59:14
Bearman,
I understand your interest here and yes, the pillow stuffing should help get better lows out of your 10's. Yes, 18 - 150 Hz is what the sub can reproduce. But how much SPL at 35 - 80Hz is what you are after.
Small enclosures, tend to greatly reduce output SPL in the below 50 Hz range as the bass wave cannot be properly reproduced. In very general terms, the larger the enclosure, the more low end bass we get... within the parameteres recommended by the MFG.
An Additional 12" or even 15" sub can be added. This is done in HT and Pro sound applications frequently. Placement of the larger sub and phase relationship to the door 10's will be keys to excellent low end and midbass performance. The larger sub, in a larger enclosure can be set to operate at very low frequencies (say 25-60 Hz) and the 10's can be setup to operate between 60 - ? whatever cutoff point is needed.
Swez
PS The larger sub you choose should be based on space you are willing to give up for the box and amp power to drive it. Say more on that issue and we can give you some suggestions.
bearman on 07/18/2004 23:04:44
Well, the 10's I had planned to purchase (the Infinity's) are recommended for 0.60 cu.ft. sealed. The Q-logic boxes are 0.65 cu.ft. so assume that the response levels should be close to what is stated.
As for the 12, I'm planning to put that in the space now held by the spare tire, interior spare in the '99. So, I have quite a bit of space for the box, but I want to limit it to a reasonable amount. I don't have a sub to run it yet, but any suggestions are appreciated. More to the point, I want to match up the 12 to hit in the spots the 10's can't reach or can't reach effectively.
Bearman
asplundher on 07/18/2004 23:26:18
Before you possibly complicate the original planned setup without first listening to it; I would try the two 10's. One fine point we all tend to forget mostly is transfer function. If that is heavily taken into consideration, it is very likely that they will provide what is needed for your preference.
Example: A cousin of mine kept saying that he wanted better bass than what he had (2 JL 10's sealed) in his Tahoe. He thought he should go for larger ones. I then lent him two similar power 8's in a ported enclosure that blew away the tens in frequency response with similar spl.
In short, bigger and/or more is not always better. See what the Infinity's will do first before adding to them.
cplkittle on 07/19/2004 01:34:59
Also invest in a good xover. You need to seperate the frequencies of each size. The best sq vehicle I have seen was one with 4 eights and one 15. the eights were set at a bandpass of 80-180hz, and the 15 from 20-70hz. The gap of 10hz betweent the two could not be heard due to the use of 12dB/octave filters. It had a very clean sound top to bottom. it was in an '02 or '03 denali.. can't quite remember the year.
swez on 07/19/2004 08:42:11
Good point... try your initial plan of dual 10's and see how it goes. Transfer function in a large vehicle can be a major boost to low end response, even in a compact enclosure design.
If that does not give the results after tweaking and tuning, then adding a larger sub as mentioned, would be a logical step. The trick here, is to blend them together for a well balanced sound, having adequate filtering as Kittle mentioned and finding the optimal phase relationship between all subs. Cross that bridge when you see a need to go there.
Looking ahead, amping all this could present some challenges too. The 10.1d's give you a net 1 or 4 ohm option. A mono amp that is stable at 1 ohm will be a good target for the 10.1d's. Even if you did add a 12 later, the 10's can be rewired to 4 ohms and a 4 ohm 12" (2+2 or 8+8 DVC will work too) is your best option. The net result would be a perfect 2 ohm load.
Yes, can use dual amps here if you wish or even a 2 channel amp would work. But getting a good 2 channel powerful enough for all subs will be a major strain on the electricals. A Class T type, 2 channel amp would be a very good solution here. Question here being, how much power per channel is enough. The 2 channel option gives you opportunity for electronic crossovers to each sub group.
Sorry to load you up with excess details now. Just thinking ahead to avoid problems that could block your progress or cost you much more later. A fair amount of thought needs to be put into this design up front to avoid unexpected issues later. It seems that you are thinking ahead
and that is exactly what is needed. Impulse buying gets many a guy in deep weeds and poor outcome.
Keep sharing your thoughts,
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
