New member here. I just finished my most ambitious installation and am unhappy with the sound. I don't have much experience with placement or adjustments of speakers and hopefully all I need is the proper tweeking. The system is in a 97 Ram excab non Infinity. It consists of a Pioneer DEH-P77DH HU. This unit has highpass outputs adjustable to 50,80,125hz and a lowpass output with the same cutoffs and a level control. The rear speakers are Kappa components 50.1cs 2Way,5 1/4, 100rms, 59-20k driven by a US acoustics USX 2100, 100rms x2 with variable highpass 65-4.5k. The only surface flat enough to mount the midrange was the low forward factory location. the tweeter is several inches higher and about 2 inches to the rear, near the armrest. The front speakers and amp are identical. The midrange is mounted in the upper portion of the factory door cutout and the tweeter is as high and far forward on the door as it could go. I didn't cut any panels yet so I can still change locations. It also has the non amplified MTX Thunderform under the rear seat. this unit consists of 2 Thunder 10" 6000A which I believe are rated at 250w rms, 31-150hz. I have taken it apart and it seems that each has a dual voice coil wired in series, both woofers are then wired in parallel to a single input. I haven't bought an amp for this yet and am using an old one that says it's putting out 250w. One of my problems is that the imaging stinks. It sounds like all the sound is coming from the floor. Also it seems to lack punch in the midrange area. It actually sounds stronger without the subs(it is in phase). The subs are another problem. I was hoping for a natural bass that would hit hard at high volume, but the bass is overpowering at all but the lowest settings (50hz,HU at lowest level and amp at lowest gain). I listen to rock and metal so I like powerful bass but not the THUMP,THUMP. I'm hoping to work with what I have but would consider making changes. Thanks for your time and help.
Replies (7)
Swez on 05/29/2003 07:47:59
Excellent job mapping out your system and explaining the issues. May be new to this site... but obviously not new to audio!
Let's break things down to managable bite size bits, so they are easier to manage.
FYI: Do all your tweaking at moderate SPL levels. Anything above ~ 90-95 dB, will make it very hard to hear all the subtle adjustments, as the ears get flooded with excess SPL and begin to block out what you are trying to pin down.
Mids & Highs:
Since you have 5/4" Comps (good choice too) in both front and rear stages, you can anticpate a rapid roll off of midbass below about 100 Hz. A little EQ/ filtering tweaking may help here... but they can only go so low before cone distortion sets in at a given SPL level. Try HP filter settings of 80 & 125 Hz to determine which filtering point sounds best for your Comps... in this vehicle. The 80 Hz setting is most common, but may not be right for your application.
Start with your front Comps and turn all other amp devices off or way down for now. You are trying to opimize the front stage here for best imaging (L/R) clairity and power output. It's about amp gain settings, HP filter crossover points and balancing L & R speaker outputs. Use a few CD's with material you are vary familiar with, to perform this setup process.
Once you have the front stage optimized and sounding as best you can get it, then it's time to move to the rear stage fills and bring them into the mix. Same process as noted in front stage setup process.
NOTE: The rear stage is more of a fill in the gaps application. So you may have to do some experimentation to "balance" them to fit your primary (front stage) speakers. The fact that these are "front firing" and the front stage is "cross firing", may pose a few signal cancellation issues commonly due to phase shifts of the signals as they meet at the driver's position.
Again, some careful "tweaking and blending" are the goal here. The rear channels are in a supportive role to the front stage. So lowering the output from the rears to "blend" with the front stage is your target. You may want to try reversing the output polarity on the rear fills (at amp) and see if this improves your overall imaging and midrange performance. Take your time... this one takes patience!
Subs:
Once you get the F&R stages to the best possible sound, now add the subs into the mix. Since you like Rock and Metal, there is no real need for deep thumping bass here. Most bass in these types of music are typically above 40 Hz. The tight thump is most donimnent in the 55-80 Hz range. Setting your crossover point on the subs to somewhere in the 100-125 Hz range may be very helpful here. This provides more "midbass punch" to your system and takes the subs up to where your 5/4" s can take over the rest of the audio spectrum.
Once you get the F&R stages somewhat hammerd out, then blending the subs into the mix is you last majot task. If you have too much low bass "THUMP" try dialing back on the HU bass EQ control funtion. Here, a -3 to 0 position may be useful to attenuate excessive boominess in bass region. You can adjust the amp gain as well, to blend with the rest of the system. Your LP filter settings here should be 80-125 Hz.
"Pioneer Quote" When set to "subwoofer", the outputs are non fading, and they may be set for normal or reverse phase, 50Hz, 80Hz or 125Hz low-pass output, and you can set the level from -6 to +6.
If you still have boominess in the low bass region, select filtering/EQ may be needed to block out excess low boom, thus... more punchy bass sound. The boom is in the below 50 Hz. range. It may be cabin gain effect or just a setup issue.
I gotta run for now. Review the setup process and see what you can get from doing these suggested tweaks. If you get snagged, come back and say more about your findings and we'll try to address them as well.
Swez
PS Welcome to the forum! SMILE
Swez on 05/29/2003 18:19:16
OK, I looked at some of the features in this HU and you have several interesting features avilable to play with. Some carefull review of the installations and owners manuals will clarify their functions and how to get the most from each feature. In short, a very complex HU!
The general setup process in the previous post will be a good guide to work from, but some of the advanced features in this HU will have to be explored, to get the best sound from your new system.
If you get snagged, just come back and say what you are hung up on and we'll try to help ya out.
Swez
BCK on 05/29/2003 23:27:53
Thanks for the help. I have a couple questions about placement before we get back to fine tuning. After spending more time moving the tweeters around today I determined that mounting them on the A-pillars sounds better than high on the doors where I was hoping to put them(cheaper,easier). Given the room behind the plastic though it looks like the only way to do this will be to get the Infinity option Dodge A-pillars. I sent a message to Infinity to ask if my tweeters will fit. I also need to ask a Dodge dealer if that was an option in 97. Anyone know? I am going to leave the mids in the factory location front and rear. Do you think I will notice any difference in sound by mounting them behind the panels vs surface mounting with the Infinity grills? I would prefer behind the factory grills.
About the HU. Yes, it is complex, but not in a good way. I got it because I wanted it to fit the factory opening. I don't think I would get it again. I have been playing around with some of the features and believe I have them figured out. I'll tell you what I'm working with, maybe you have some more input that can help. It has some preset Eq curves and one open spot for your "custom" curve. However, the only the only customizing you can do as far as boosting or cutting certain freqs. is a general Low/Mid/High up or down. There is another feature that allows you to assign 1 of 4 different slopes to quite a few specific freqs. but it only shows in the manual what 2 of the 4 slopes look like. Does 2N-1N-1W-2W mean anything or did Pioneer just use those to label the choices? The manual show 2N as a sharp cutoff before and after the chosen freq. and 2W as a more gradual cutoff. What about 1N and 1W? I could use some advice on how to get the most out of this feature because I really can't detect a difference between them. I think I might need more specific controll of boosting and cutting specific low freqs. to get the bass right. Thanks again.
Swez on 05/30/2003 08:34:44
Mounting to A pillars is not a bad option. Some like the tweeters high up for better imaging control. The one thing you may have noticed, is tweeters have a very narrow dispersion pattern and they tend to "beam" in the direction they are pointed at. In the "beam" you get very bright highs. Get a few degrees off axis and the tweeters will mellow out and blend. So, a little experimentation is a good idea.
If these are surface mountable, then you can try moving them around to find the best spot from your driver position. A little 2 sided tape is all is needed until you find the right location, then make it permanent as you see fit. Don't know about the OEM Infinity A pillars as you mentioned. Proceed as you are and see what feedback you get from the dealership.
About mids and Factory grills, should be fine to leave the original grills in place. As long as they have a pretty open screen and don't block out too much upper midrange... sure, use OEM grills.
Yes, that HU was obviously choosen as a drop in for OEM HU. The custom EQ feature is a "parametric EQ" . It controls groups of frequencies in 3 bands... Low, Mids & Highs. The 1 & 2 N means narrow bandwidth slopes and 1 & 2 W are wide bandwidth slopes. Short of using and RTA (Real Time Analyzer) and pink noise generator (test CD), it will be very hard to use this feature well, unless you have a very well trained ear. Do the preset EQ features have a setting you like?
Also, you can use the custom EQ feature to pull out some of the "thump" and increase the "punch" by adjusing the "Low" and "Mids" section of the Custom EQ. What are the bandwidth selection frequencies for Low & Mids? Is there a menu that allows you to select one of several bands on each? If yes, what are the selectable bandwidths avialable?
Call me "OLD SCHOOL" if you like, but I prefer a good graphic EQ for sound shaping. Less hassles, easy to figure out which frequencies to cut/boost and no menu hopping either! An on the fly adjustment is more uesful to me than menu hopping for parametrics EQ's. Not that parametrics are bad... in fact, they are excellent tools for Pro and high end HT applications. But for mobile audio... I'll take a good graphic EQ anytime.
If you are of the same mind as what I mentioned above, consider adding a quality graphic EQ and skip the parametric and preset EQ functions entirely. The trick is finding one that you can fit into a loction that looks good and is easy to adjust, on the fly as you drive.
Audio Control makes some very good gear in this department and there is also a output preamp to boost signals to your amps for less noise.
Finally, the comment about everything coming from the floor... that's stock factory locations causing that. If you raise the tweeters, this will help some. But midrange will propagate well, if you have some distance between listening zone and speaker locations. If less than 5 feet, you are pretty well stuck with that issue short of changing locations of the mids, or adding some upward angle to the mids via gasket shims. A few degrees upward may be all you need, to reduce that "from the floor" situation mentioned.
If you want to look at EQ options from Audio Control, go here:
http://www.audiocontrol.com/caraudio.htm
The Three.1 and Four.1i are pretty popular and very simple to use. They are dash mountable and have line drivers as well. There are other more complex units as well... the 1/3rd octave units are bulky, non-dash mountable and may be too complex/expensive to justify using same.
Swez
xplicitblitzboi on 05/30/2003 13:59:32
Well, i guess the 1/3 octave unit is just a personal preference of mine, audiocontrol makes some great stuff, just try out different things and see what you like, in most cases with anyone in car audio, its all a matter of personal preference.
Swez on 05/30/2003 17:58:15
Blitz,
Don't get me wrong.. I think the 1/3 octave EQ is tops for a "fixed system" (meaning all components are in optimal positions and will stay there) as in HT or a Pro DJ tool etc.
But having this large a unit in a car, hard to set on the fly as signal sources change from CD to CD. This is a set it up for near flat response curve and leave it alone type component. All additional tweaking is done from basic tone controls off the main mixer/preamp/receiver.
I do like a minimum of 7 bands adjustmenst, but 9-10 is about all most guys can manage in a small space, and still be useful.
Swez
xplicitblitzboi on 05/31/2003 13:09:25
:) good point, for his situation, the graphic would probably better. especially if he can change things on the go.
Replies (7)
Swez on 05/29/2003 07:47:59
Excellent job mapping out your system and explaining the issues. May be new to this site... but obviously not new to audio!
Let's break things down to managable bite size bits, so they are easier to manage.
FYI: Do all your tweaking at moderate SPL levels. Anything above ~ 90-95 dB, will make it very hard to hear all the subtle adjustments, as the ears get flooded with excess SPL and begin to block out what you are trying to pin down.
Mids & Highs:
Since you have 5/4" Comps (good choice too) in both front and rear stages, you can anticpate a rapid roll off of midbass below about 100 Hz. A little EQ/ filtering tweaking may help here... but they can only go so low before cone distortion sets in at a given SPL level. Try HP filter settings of 80 & 125 Hz to determine which filtering point sounds best for your Comps... in this vehicle. The 80 Hz setting is most common, but may not be right for your application.
Start with your front Comps and turn all other amp devices off or way down for now. You are trying to opimize the front stage here for best imaging (L/R) clairity and power output. It's about amp gain settings, HP filter crossover points and balancing L & R speaker outputs. Use a few CD's with material you are vary familiar with, to perform this setup process.
Once you have the front stage optimized and sounding as best you can get it, then it's time to move to the rear stage fills and bring them into the mix. Same process as noted in front stage setup process.
NOTE: The rear stage is more of a fill in the gaps application. So you may have to do some experimentation to "balance" them to fit your primary (front stage) speakers. The fact that these are "front firing" and the front stage is "cross firing", may pose a few signal cancellation issues commonly due to phase shifts of the signals as they meet at the driver's position.
Again, some careful "tweaking and blending" are the goal here. The rear channels are in a supportive role to the front stage. So lowering the output from the rears to "blend" with the front stage is your target. You may want to try reversing the output polarity on the rear fills (at amp) and see if this improves your overall imaging and midrange performance. Take your time... this one takes patience!
Subs:
Once you get the F&R stages to the best possible sound, now add the subs into the mix. Since you like Rock and Metal, there is no real need for deep thumping bass here. Most bass in these types of music are typically above 40 Hz. The tight thump is most donimnent in the 55-80 Hz range. Setting your crossover point on the subs to somewhere in the 100-125 Hz range may be very helpful here. This provides more "midbass punch" to your system and takes the subs up to where your 5/4" s can take over the rest of the audio spectrum.
Once you get the F&R stages somewhat hammerd out, then blending the subs into the mix is you last majot task. If you have too much low bass "THUMP" try dialing back on the HU bass EQ control funtion. Here, a -3 to 0 position may be useful to attenuate excessive boominess in bass region. You can adjust the amp gain as well, to blend with the rest of the system. Your LP filter settings here should be 80-125 Hz.
"Pioneer Quote" When set to "subwoofer", the outputs are non fading, and they may be set for normal or reverse phase, 50Hz, 80Hz or 125Hz low-pass output, and you can set the level from -6 to +6.
If you still have boominess in the low bass region, select filtering/EQ may be needed to block out excess low boom, thus... more punchy bass sound. The boom is in the below 50 Hz. range. It may be cabin gain effect or just a setup issue.
I gotta run for now. Review the setup process and see what you can get from doing these suggested tweaks. If you get snagged, come back and say more about your findings and we'll try to address them as well.
Swez
PS Welcome to the forum! SMILE
Swez on 05/29/2003 18:19:16
OK, I looked at some of the features in this HU and you have several interesting features avilable to play with. Some carefull review of the installations and owners manuals will clarify their functions and how to get the most from each feature. In short, a very complex HU!
The general setup process in the previous post will be a good guide to work from, but some of the advanced features in this HU will have to be explored, to get the best sound from your new system.
If you get snagged, just come back and say what you are hung up on and we'll try to help ya out.
Swez
BCK on 05/29/2003 23:27:53
Thanks for the help. I have a couple questions about placement before we get back to fine tuning. After spending more time moving the tweeters around today I determined that mounting them on the A-pillars sounds better than high on the doors where I was hoping to put them(cheaper,easier). Given the room behind the plastic though it looks like the only way to do this will be to get the Infinity option Dodge A-pillars. I sent a message to Infinity to ask if my tweeters will fit. I also need to ask a Dodge dealer if that was an option in 97. Anyone know? I am going to leave the mids in the factory location front and rear. Do you think I will notice any difference in sound by mounting them behind the panels vs surface mounting with the Infinity grills? I would prefer behind the factory grills.
About the HU. Yes, it is complex, but not in a good way. I got it because I wanted it to fit the factory opening. I don't think I would get it again. I have been playing around with some of the features and believe I have them figured out. I'll tell you what I'm working with, maybe you have some more input that can help. It has some preset Eq curves and one open spot for your "custom" curve. However, the only the only customizing you can do as far as boosting or cutting certain freqs. is a general Low/Mid/High up or down. There is another feature that allows you to assign 1 of 4 different slopes to quite a few specific freqs. but it only shows in the manual what 2 of the 4 slopes look like. Does 2N-1N-1W-2W mean anything or did Pioneer just use those to label the choices? The manual show 2N as a sharp cutoff before and after the chosen freq. and 2W as a more gradual cutoff. What about 1N and 1W? I could use some advice on how to get the most out of this feature because I really can't detect a difference between them. I think I might need more specific controll of boosting and cutting specific low freqs. to get the bass right. Thanks again.
Swez on 05/30/2003 08:34:44
Mounting to A pillars is not a bad option. Some like the tweeters high up for better imaging control. The one thing you may have noticed, is tweeters have a very narrow dispersion pattern and they tend to "beam" in the direction they are pointed at. In the "beam" you get very bright highs. Get a few degrees off axis and the tweeters will mellow out and blend. So, a little experimentation is a good idea.
If these are surface mountable, then you can try moving them around to find the best spot from your driver position. A little 2 sided tape is all is needed until you find the right location, then make it permanent as you see fit. Don't know about the OEM Infinity A pillars as you mentioned. Proceed as you are and see what feedback you get from the dealership.
About mids and Factory grills, should be fine to leave the original grills in place. As long as they have a pretty open screen and don't block out too much upper midrange... sure, use OEM grills.
Yes, that HU was obviously choosen as a drop in for OEM HU. The custom EQ feature is a "parametric EQ" . It controls groups of frequencies in 3 bands... Low, Mids & Highs. The 1 & 2 N means narrow bandwidth slopes and 1 & 2 W are wide bandwidth slopes. Short of using and RTA (Real Time Analyzer) and pink noise generator (test CD), it will be very hard to use this feature well, unless you have a very well trained ear. Do the preset EQ features have a setting you like?
Also, you can use the custom EQ feature to pull out some of the "thump" and increase the "punch" by adjusing the "Low" and "Mids" section of the Custom EQ. What are the bandwidth selection frequencies for Low & Mids? Is there a menu that allows you to select one of several bands on each? If yes, what are the selectable bandwidths avialable?
Call me "OLD SCHOOL" if you like, but I prefer a good graphic EQ for sound shaping. Less hassles, easy to figure out which frequencies to cut/boost and no menu hopping either! An on the fly adjustment is more uesful to me than menu hopping for parametrics EQ's. Not that parametrics are bad... in fact, they are excellent tools for Pro and high end HT applications. But for mobile audio... I'll take a good graphic EQ anytime.
If you are of the same mind as what I mentioned above, consider adding a quality graphic EQ and skip the parametric and preset EQ functions entirely. The trick is finding one that you can fit into a loction that looks good and is easy to adjust, on the fly as you drive.
Audio Control makes some very good gear in this department and there is also a output preamp to boost signals to your amps for less noise.
Finally, the comment about everything coming from the floor... that's stock factory locations causing that. If you raise the tweeters, this will help some. But midrange will propagate well, if you have some distance between listening zone and speaker locations. If less than 5 feet, you are pretty well stuck with that issue short of changing locations of the mids, or adding some upward angle to the mids via gasket shims. A few degrees upward may be all you need, to reduce that "from the floor" situation mentioned.
If you want to look at EQ options from Audio Control, go here:
http://www.audiocontrol.com/caraudio.htm
The Three.1 and Four.1i are pretty popular and very simple to use. They are dash mountable and have line drivers as well. There are other more complex units as well... the 1/3rd octave units are bulky, non-dash mountable and may be too complex/expensive to justify using same.
Swez
xplicitblitzboi on 05/30/2003 13:59:32
Well, i guess the 1/3 octave unit is just a personal preference of mine, audiocontrol makes some great stuff, just try out different things and see what you like, in most cases with anyone in car audio, its all a matter of personal preference.
Swez on 05/30/2003 17:58:15
Blitz,
Don't get me wrong.. I think the 1/3 octave EQ is tops for a "fixed system" (meaning all components are in optimal positions and will stay there) as in HT or a Pro DJ tool etc.
But having this large a unit in a car, hard to set on the fly as signal sources change from CD to CD. This is a set it up for near flat response curve and leave it alone type component. All additional tweaking is done from basic tone controls off the main mixer/preamp/receiver.
I do like a minimum of 7 bands adjustmenst, but 9-10 is about all most guys can manage in a small space, and still be useful.
Swez
xplicitblitzboi on 05/31/2003 13:09:25
:) good point, for his situation, the graphic would probably better. especially if he can change things on the go.
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