I have 3 12" 800 watt subs. I am pretty sure the RMS is about 400. does anybody know how many channels on an amp i need and how many watts? any amp recommendations? Oh ya, the subs are called Koiiler XM-7012 and they are 4 ohms each. thanks
Replies (16)
swez on 07/9/2004 10:47:33
Got a web site link to Koiiler audio products? I can find details on XM-7712 subs, but not this product number.
I did find this... are these what you have now?
Koiiler XM-7712 12" Chrome Plated Car Woofer
Diameter: 12"
Maximum Continous Music Power 250W
Maximum Power Handling: 500 Watts
Sensitivity: 92 dB SPL
Usable Frequency Response: ± 4dB 33Hz-900Hz
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms
Terminal Connector: Screw
Kapton Voice Coil
Rubber Surround
Before recommending any amp or enclosure products, need more information on the subs you have. The Koiiler website will usually have adequate details to take the next steps.
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?icatid=369&stk_code=koixm7712&svbname=16
Swez
3pointking on 07/9/2004 11:28:41
No, those are not what i have. here is a link to the page where i bought them from. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18803&item=5707988221&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW . the max power on mine is 800W but it doesnt say what the RMS is. Im assuming its around 400W.
uochronos on 07/9/2004 15:05:59
hmm i wen to www.koiler.com and they dont have a xm-7012 this year they have a 7712 and a 7612 sub nither of which are 800watts max they also hav a 8212 sub that is 1000watts max.
i emailed them asking if it was an older model and to please send me the specs...
i assume from what i have seen here that the ebay ad was misleading and these are an older model sub when i get the specs for them i well let you know
swez on 07/9/2004 17:31:08
OK, I see the product mentioned. The 800 watts PEAK is more like a number that happens when vendors use the ILS (If Lightning Stikes) method of rating gear. In reality, this sub is probably more like 250-300 watts RMS tops per sub. RMS is a Continous power rating and more in line with what a driver or amp can really take. This ad at e-bay is more hype than anything else. The Koiiler website does not show this model as a 2004 series product number. Probably a few years old as it is not a DVC model.
FYI: There is no such thing as a "quality" SPL sub that can take 400 watts RMS in that price range... $30.00 each. unless it is a blow out sale, older product or a refurb. Cheap yes...but getting details on this maker is not easy nor do they have adequate specs to figure out what type/size enclosure to use.
If you have not purchase them yet (I HOPE NOT) save your hard earned money of buy a quality brand set of subs. But if you have, check the spec sheets that come with most subs regarding power input requirements and enclosure needs.
http://www.koiiler.com/
Comments?
Swez
3pointking on 07/9/2004 17:34:31
Yeah, i suspected later on that the ad could be misleading but the picture of the sub does clearly say it is 800W max, it says XM-7712, and it says that it is 4 ohms. I have already ordered the subs and am scheduled to get them on monday so i will find out soon. I have also looked all over the internet in search of some info on these and can't seem to find anything anywhere. Thanks for your efforts to help.
3pointking on 07/9/2004 17:41:25
I was afraid that might happen. I just hope now that the impulse buy doesnt bite me on the ass to hard. I called the people i bought it from and they said the only specs they have are what is on the auction so thats not very convincing. He did, in fact, tell me that it is most likely around 250-300 RMS.
swez on 07/9/2004 19:41:31
Not a huge loss here friend... just a good lesson that when our pupils dialate, the heartbeat goes up and we get a dry mouth... watch out as impulse mode is in full throttle mode. Must be some kind of male hormone effect or something... you have comne to the right place. We have a good recovery room staff to bind your wounds and get you walking again. hehe
When you get them, consider a sealed Tri-sub enclosure with about 1.0 - 1.2 cf internal airspace per sub. Can go a bit smaller than 3.0 cf internal for a more puncy bass sound too.
Amping these subs will be not so hard on the wallet if you stick with a sealed enclosure. Since these are 4 ohm single coil subs, all 3 in parallel wiring will give you a 1.33 ohm load. That means you need a 1 ohm stable amp to power them. Recommended power to consider... 600 RMS min., 1000 watts RMS max.
Use a Class D or Class T sub amp here. They are very efficient on power draw VS the output they push to the subs. Current draw may become an issue for you in this is a smaller import SUV vehicle. Larger vehicles and big SUV's have more electrical reserves to use larger amps. A typical 600 watt Class D amp will draw ~55 amperes at full power. If you move up to the 1000 watt class, that's ~80+ amperes of current draw.
Read this post and threads for amp ideas OK: http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?g1897_1544
Can your present electrical system support that? If you have an 85-100 ampere ALT... most likely do the smaller amp well. If you run a larger amp, upgrade time coming soon... light dimming at idle will be an issue, especially with AC on or rear window defogger going. Now, you have some knowledge to work with as you consider the amp you buy soon.
Frankly, I'd go with a pair of the Koiiler 12's in a sealed box, 600 watts RMS Class D or T amp and save the last sub as a spare. It will save you a ton of money on the amp (2 ohm stable MONO amps are easier to find) you buy, little if any electrical upgrades needed and more cargo space.
The SPL difference between 2 subs @ 300 RMS/sub VS 3 subs @ ~333 RMS/sub will be minimal. But the cost of amp and electrical upgrades can be substantial. Think it over before you dive in over your head OK?
Swez SMILE
PS I love this job... especially when folks are teachable and have made only minor mistakes up front. You will recover from buying these low end sub and still have a good bass machine too. We'll get you there... don't worry! You are in good hands here at CK.
aposynthesi on 07/10/2004 01:51:49
Koiilers stuff looks pretty good - they have 4-way 550w 6x9's with a 92db sensitivity.
Their 82xx series subs don't look too bad either.
uochronos on 07/10/2004 02:51:31
550watt max 6x9's i have a set of sony 500watt 6x9's..... there stuff looks decent but i instantly am distrusting of them because they are misleading and very little specs on there own web site.... any company that doesnt list the RMS power somewhere on theer site seems a bit shady. just my opinion though
3pointking on 07/10/2004 11:57:03
Ok, so if I stick with all 3 subs then I need a 1ohm mono amp that is 600W RMS and 1000W peak and wire all 3 subs in parallel. But if I just go with 2 subs then I need a 2 ohm mono amp that is 600W RMS and 1000W peak and wire both subs in parallel. So either way I need an amp with one channel and 600W RMS and 1000W peak and wire them in parallel, the only difference is with 3 subs I need 1 ohm and with 2 subs I need 2 ohm. Is all that right?
swez on 07/10/2004 13:46:24
Pretty much... for get the peak watts number as this is really not a useful gage. More like a bragging post for the uninformed. RMS or "Continous power Ratings" are the real numbers you need to know when buying amps, subs or other speakers.
Summary:
1. 3 sub install: 600 -1000 watts RMS is fine. THE AMP USED, MUST BE 1 OHM STABLE
2. 2 sub install: 400-600 watts RMS @ 2 ohms is your target. Most Class D mono amps will handle that with ease and much cheaper than a 1000 watt amp. (in many ways noted earlier)
Check the list noted below:
It is hard to find a cheap, but potent MONO amp that is 1 ohm stable for under $300.00 (USD) E-bay will probably be your best bet for lowest cost of better quality amps.
1. ***.1/2 JBL BP 600.1 +600 RMS @ 1 ohms (~$219.00 off e-bay)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18797&item=5706975172&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
2. *** Ultimate Digitalis DD1-1300S, ($180.00) a lot more power than you need here... but cheap.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ULTDD11300S
3. **** HiFonics Warrior Merlin (Sale! $154.95) 450 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFMERLIN
4. **** ORION 600D (~$300.00) 600 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.justamps.com/Amp_Pages/Orion/Orion_amps.htm
5. ****Autotek SS-800X ($290.00) 750 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=634
Rating system I use:
* = poor quality
** = average performance & features
*** = above average performance & features
**** = the good stuff (You pay more baby)
***** = Primo gear (you get & pay more)
Swez
3pointking on 07/10/2004 15:49:29
thanks man, you've been more help than anybody i've talked to on the internet and in person.
swez on 07/10/2004 16:08:03
You are most wecome! This is one of my passions and you will get my best effort each time you ask for help.
Thanks for your kind words... they mean alot right now. (more than I care to mention)
Best regards,
Swez ><>
soul_karver on 07/10/2004 23:11:30
hey swez... do you think you could help me out a little in my post "Updated list of HUs"... it would mean a lot to me if you could! I would thank you SOOO much!!
swez on 07/11/2004 09:04:36
S_K,
Yes... check your post as I did reply to this per your request. Tried to stay out of that one as it was already well covered by others who have more experience with newer HU products. For my tastes... prefer to use the HU only as a source (preamp mixer) for tuner, CD and other input devices. The other features I like are EQ & DSP.
The rest ... fancy displays, powered HU and every toy under the sun do not appeal to me personally. More things to distract or go wrong as the HU ages and really jacks up the prices too. Why pay more for things we really don't want or need. Flipping through complex menus to change this or that at 50-70 MPH, is not what I wish to be doing on the highway.
Swez
Bigeazy4387 on 07/13/2004 01:37:47
i would like to add 1 amp to your list swez the rockford fosgate bd500 it is 600rms at 2ohms and it goes for around 175 on ebay i do not have all the specs right now maybe u can update this for me later
Replies (16)
swez on 07/9/2004 10:47:33
Got a web site link to Koiiler audio products? I can find details on XM-7712 subs, but not this product number.
I did find this... are these what you have now?
Koiiler XM-7712 12" Chrome Plated Car Woofer
Diameter: 12"
Maximum Continous Music Power 250W
Maximum Power Handling: 500 Watts
Sensitivity: 92 dB SPL
Usable Frequency Response: ± 4dB 33Hz-900Hz
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms
Terminal Connector: Screw
Kapton Voice Coil
Rubber Surround
Before recommending any amp or enclosure products, need more information on the subs you have. The Koiiler website will usually have adequate details to take the next steps.
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?icatid=369&stk_code=koixm7712&svbname=16
Swez
3pointking on 07/9/2004 11:28:41
No, those are not what i have. here is a link to the page where i bought them from. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18803&item=5707988221&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW . the max power on mine is 800W but it doesnt say what the RMS is. Im assuming its around 400W.
uochronos on 07/9/2004 15:05:59
hmm i wen to www.koiler.com and they dont have a xm-7012 this year they have a 7712 and a 7612 sub nither of which are 800watts max they also hav a 8212 sub that is 1000watts max.
i emailed them asking if it was an older model and to please send me the specs...
i assume from what i have seen here that the ebay ad was misleading and these are an older model sub when i get the specs for them i well let you know
swez on 07/9/2004 17:31:08
OK, I see the product mentioned. The 800 watts PEAK is more like a number that happens when vendors use the ILS (If Lightning Stikes) method of rating gear. In reality, this sub is probably more like 250-300 watts RMS tops per sub. RMS is a Continous power rating and more in line with what a driver or amp can really take. This ad at e-bay is more hype than anything else. The Koiiler website does not show this model as a 2004 series product number. Probably a few years old as it is not a DVC model.
FYI: There is no such thing as a "quality" SPL sub that can take 400 watts RMS in that price range... $30.00 each. unless it is a blow out sale, older product or a refurb. Cheap yes...but getting details on this maker is not easy nor do they have adequate specs to figure out what type/size enclosure to use.
If you have not purchase them yet (I HOPE NOT) save your hard earned money of buy a quality brand set of subs. But if you have, check the spec sheets that come with most subs regarding power input requirements and enclosure needs.
http://www.koiiler.com/
Comments?
Swez
3pointking on 07/9/2004 17:34:31
Yeah, i suspected later on that the ad could be misleading but the picture of the sub does clearly say it is 800W max, it says XM-7712, and it says that it is 4 ohms. I have already ordered the subs and am scheduled to get them on monday so i will find out soon. I have also looked all over the internet in search of some info on these and can't seem to find anything anywhere. Thanks for your efforts to help.
3pointking on 07/9/2004 17:41:25
I was afraid that might happen. I just hope now that the impulse buy doesnt bite me on the ass to hard. I called the people i bought it from and they said the only specs they have are what is on the auction so thats not very convincing. He did, in fact, tell me that it is most likely around 250-300 RMS.
swez on 07/9/2004 19:41:31
Not a huge loss here friend... just a good lesson that when our pupils dialate, the heartbeat goes up and we get a dry mouth... watch out as impulse mode is in full throttle mode. Must be some kind of male hormone effect or something... you have comne to the right place. We have a good recovery room staff to bind your wounds and get you walking again. hehe
When you get them, consider a sealed Tri-sub enclosure with about 1.0 - 1.2 cf internal airspace per sub. Can go a bit smaller than 3.0 cf internal for a more puncy bass sound too.
Amping these subs will be not so hard on the wallet if you stick with a sealed enclosure. Since these are 4 ohm single coil subs, all 3 in parallel wiring will give you a 1.33 ohm load. That means you need a 1 ohm stable amp to power them. Recommended power to consider... 600 RMS min., 1000 watts RMS max.
Use a Class D or Class T sub amp here. They are very efficient on power draw VS the output they push to the subs. Current draw may become an issue for you in this is a smaller import SUV vehicle. Larger vehicles and big SUV's have more electrical reserves to use larger amps. A typical 600 watt Class D amp will draw ~55 amperes at full power. If you move up to the 1000 watt class, that's ~80+ amperes of current draw.
Read this post and threads for amp ideas OK: http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?g1897_1544
Can your present electrical system support that? If you have an 85-100 ampere ALT... most likely do the smaller amp well. If you run a larger amp, upgrade time coming soon... light dimming at idle will be an issue, especially with AC on or rear window defogger going. Now, you have some knowledge to work with as you consider the amp you buy soon.
Frankly, I'd go with a pair of the Koiiler 12's in a sealed box, 600 watts RMS Class D or T amp and save the last sub as a spare. It will save you a ton of money on the amp (2 ohm stable MONO amps are easier to find) you buy, little if any electrical upgrades needed and more cargo space.
The SPL difference between 2 subs @ 300 RMS/sub VS 3 subs @ ~333 RMS/sub will be minimal. But the cost of amp and electrical upgrades can be substantial. Think it over before you dive in over your head OK?
Swez SMILE
PS I love this job... especially when folks are teachable and have made only minor mistakes up front. You will recover from buying these low end sub and still have a good bass machine too. We'll get you there... don't worry! You are in good hands here at CK.
aposynthesi on 07/10/2004 01:51:49
Koiilers stuff looks pretty good - they have 4-way 550w 6x9's with a 92db sensitivity.
Their 82xx series subs don't look too bad either.
uochronos on 07/10/2004 02:51:31
550watt max 6x9's i have a set of sony 500watt 6x9's..... there stuff looks decent but i instantly am distrusting of them because they are misleading and very little specs on there own web site.... any company that doesnt list the RMS power somewhere on theer site seems a bit shady. just my opinion though
3pointking on 07/10/2004 11:57:03
Ok, so if I stick with all 3 subs then I need a 1ohm mono amp that is 600W RMS and 1000W peak and wire all 3 subs in parallel. But if I just go with 2 subs then I need a 2 ohm mono amp that is 600W RMS and 1000W peak and wire both subs in parallel. So either way I need an amp with one channel and 600W RMS and 1000W peak and wire them in parallel, the only difference is with 3 subs I need 1 ohm and with 2 subs I need 2 ohm. Is all that right?
swez on 07/10/2004 13:46:24
Pretty much... for get the peak watts number as this is really not a useful gage. More like a bragging post for the uninformed. RMS or "Continous power Ratings" are the real numbers you need to know when buying amps, subs or other speakers.
Summary:
1. 3 sub install: 600 -1000 watts RMS is fine. THE AMP USED, MUST BE 1 OHM STABLE
2. 2 sub install: 400-600 watts RMS @ 2 ohms is your target. Most Class D mono amps will handle that with ease and much cheaper than a 1000 watt amp. (in many ways noted earlier)
Check the list noted below:
It is hard to find a cheap, but potent MONO amp that is 1 ohm stable for under $300.00 (USD) E-bay will probably be your best bet for lowest cost of better quality amps.
1. ***.1/2 JBL BP 600.1 +600 RMS @ 1 ohms (~$219.00 off e-bay)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18797&item=5706975172&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
2. *** Ultimate Digitalis DD1-1300S, ($180.00) a lot more power than you need here... but cheap.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ULTDD11300S
3. **** HiFonics Warrior Merlin (Sale! $154.95) 450 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFMERLIN
4. **** ORION 600D (~$300.00) 600 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.justamps.com/Amp_Pages/Orion/Orion_amps.htm
5. ****Autotek SS-800X ($290.00) 750 RMS @ 1 ohm
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=634
Rating system I use:
* = poor quality
** = average performance & features
*** = above average performance & features
**** = the good stuff (You pay more baby)
***** = Primo gear (you get & pay more)
Swez
3pointking on 07/10/2004 15:49:29
thanks man, you've been more help than anybody i've talked to on the internet and in person.
swez on 07/10/2004 16:08:03
You are most wecome! This is one of my passions and you will get my best effort each time you ask for help.
Thanks for your kind words... they mean alot right now. (more than I care to mention)
Best regards,
Swez ><>
soul_karver on 07/10/2004 23:11:30
hey swez... do you think you could help me out a little in my post "Updated list of HUs"... it would mean a lot to me if you could! I would thank you SOOO much!!
swez on 07/11/2004 09:04:36
S_K,
Yes... check your post as I did reply to this per your request. Tried to stay out of that one as it was already well covered by others who have more experience with newer HU products. For my tastes... prefer to use the HU only as a source (preamp mixer) for tuner, CD and other input devices. The other features I like are EQ & DSP.
The rest ... fancy displays, powered HU and every toy under the sun do not appeal to me personally. More things to distract or go wrong as the HU ages and really jacks up the prices too. Why pay more for things we really don't want or need. Flipping through complex menus to change this or that at 50-70 MPH, is not what I wish to be doing on the highway.
Swez
Bigeazy4387 on 07/13/2004 01:37:47
i would like to add 1 amp to your list swez the rockford fosgate bd500 it is 600rms at 2ohms and it goes for around 175 on ebay i do not have all the specs right now maybe u can update this for me later
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