hey guys,
well, as some of you know, i just started installing professionally about 3 months ago. In those 3 months, i have learned more than i had learned in doing side jobs by myself for 3 years.
one thing that i never work on is using power capacitors. i know several of you guys here do not recommend them. i was wondering why this is so?? i had always heard that caps are how you prevent dimming. any feedback would be appreciated.
take care,
-UK
Replies (16)
uochronos on 07/2/2004 02:45:57
i strongly dont recomend them because i ahev seen in friends vehicles that they do not work.
for an example myself adn a friend had very similar systems in very similar cars both had dimming problems i solved mine with a smaller alternator pully and a larger CCA battery. he solved his with a power cap. mine never dimmed again in that car.. his on the other hand still dimmed and drained his battery even worse then before.
also a 800cca battery has about 100,000 times more power storage then a 1 farad power cap. and they run about the same price....
maybe if you had upgraded your alternaot and up graded your battery and had no dimming but wanted to make sure any extreme bass spikes where cover a power cap may have some advantage.. but even then i would opt for a second battery...
also i have heard of Caps exploding when do it yourselfers do it wrong... not 100% sure one the newer ones but a few years back i heard of it fairly often...
also i heard someone i belive swez or ttocs here say that even the original inventors of the power caps say now that they have very little usefullness..
the only thing i actualy like about them is in some installs they look very cool. but aside from the look i see little advantage to one. although i guarentee you that you can find people that well argue they are a god send for hourse on end.... then again i know people who think its a good idea to slide down a hill on skateboards on there bellies with no protective gear doing like 35mph. so not hard to find people that ignore logic:)
swez on 07/2/2004 08:06:59
Yes, they look cool like auto jewlery, but as far as really living up to expectations VS reality... they just don't make the cut after Fridays' pruning.
How they work... they really don't. If you want a long but accurate read on the subject, have a look at this piece:
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
Mr. B and Swez, co-wrote it several years ago and the information is as current now as it was then.
Enjoy the read and learn session,
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/2/2004 10:08:17
thanks for the good info, If I get this ranger ive been talking about, what should I do if i plan to put in about 1200watts worth of amps, by the way ive had my kicker 12s cranked all the way driving my f 150 through town and volt gauge was dipping to like 8 volts so also this ranger doesnt have the best alternator, so i would think i would have to beef it up
uochronos on 07/2/2004 14:11:32
i have a 2003ranger FX4 with the 4 liter engine and the biggest alternator they come with stock... and it was diming slightly with a 500watt amp.... i now run a 2 channel amp [putting out 125 rms to each channel and a 1200watt mono amp,. i up graded to a 200amp alternator and a nice 800cca batter. i still can make the lights dim if i get carried away. but honestly the bass gets way too loud in the little cabin long before i usualy start to dim.
racerbizoehm on 07/2/2004 14:39:16
well this is a 1985 ranger lol
uochronos on 07/2/2004 15:14:54
i know that was my pointsort of just didnt say it right,,, a 85 ranegr is going to have alot weaker of a electrikcal system... if your going to have just 1200watt of amping i would suggest a 200amp altyernatore and a 800-900 cca battery... my friend has a 88 ranger and pushes 400watts with little diming and just an upgraded battery... but 1200 well be a huge drain on your system upwards of 120amp being pulled if you have it cranked all the way up
racerbizoehm on 07/2/2004 20:40:10
ok i gotta find a big alternator like that which may be difficult, but maybe i could get away with it because, the only time i would crank it is like competitions and showing off other wise would be prety def so i'll see when i get to that step
swez on 07/2/2004 22:22:10
Can always try the system as stock and dial way back on the bass amp gains when not competing. For everyday driving, just use enough bass amp power to sound balanced.
Also, at night... just cool it when your lights and A/C are on. If you charging voltage drops below ~10.0 volts, the car will die and you will be stranded until you get a jump. Might be a good idea to carry a good set of jumper cables and/or one of those jumper type battery kits.
Like this one... has an air compressor, pressure gage, work lamp and jumper cables with 900 watt battery:
http://www.brandsonsale.com/porjumstarba.html
This should start your car again and then turn off you audio system on the way home to allow the ALT to recharge the BAT.
Swez
uochronos on 07/2/2004 22:26:07
i have one of those jumper batteries its the best 80$ i have ever spent used it countless times. take it on all road trips and what not. even use it to power a portable 12 volt cooler when camping:)
UKinstaller on 07/3/2004 01:51:37
fascinating. simply fascinating.
ya know, i have no idea why, but in my 92 rodeo, i have an 800 watt fosgate amp pushing two 12's, and the lights don't dim even the slightest. however, my friend has a 99 olds alero, and he has a 3 or 400 watt alpine amp pushing one 10, and his lights dim like crazy. he has a 4 channel amp, too, though.
-UK
uochronos on 07/3/2004 01:55:56
4 channel amp well pull alot more... my lights only dimmed wbecause i was runing an A/B and not a D class amp that was 500 watts... i dont think i would have dimmed with a 500watt d class amp.... although since i'm upgradeing to a 4 channel ampo and a 1200watt mono amp its a good thing i upgraded anyway:)
cplkittle on 07/3/2004 08:26:14
I jumped on the hate caps bandwagon a while back, but after seeing the difference in a few vehicles, I have a slightly different opinion.
Caps work on everyday driving SQ installations. Country, Rock, Pop, and some Rap. Caps will not work if you are playing synthesized bass CDs that generate constant low frequency notes (the kind that annoys everyone in the neighborhood).
Stinger has a new hybrid cap out now that really kicks butt. They come in 10, 15, 20, and 35 farad sizes. These are 24v surge caps that really help out for longer periods of constant low frequency notes.
Now I'm not saying caps solve all the problems, they are designed to supply critical power when the amp sucks hard on a low drop, they refuel themselves when the bass tones itself down for a few seconds. Caps are actually fast discharge/recharge batteries, and they are the cheapest quick fix for a bad ratio of amp power v/s alt+battery power. Yes, batteries hold a thousand times more charge, but they can't deliver that charge like a cap can.
Pinch on 07/3/2004 12:39:58
I agree Cpl. I think a lot of the reason many on this forum dislike caps is they compare them to batteries and a new alternator in their ability to act as a current source for systems. In that respect, they're awesome paperweights but poor sources. However, they can be useful if used correctly and for the right reason. For example, a vehicle with a competant charging system which is up to the demands being imposed on it would be most happy to have a large cap smoothing out the instantaneous current demands of a thumpin system. A vehicle with dimming interior lights on the other hand, would see the cap as just another electrical load thus further straining the system. In short, I think it is unfair to say that batteries can store more electrical energy and are a better buy because of it. The system needs to be evaluated as a whole (which as a side note, this forum is EXTREMELY good at doing :).
swez on 07/3/2004 15:16:41
The debate continues... yeah, I agree that a Cap can do OK in a moderately loaded system. (an adequate job) But this is not the case for most guys that come into the game with "Big Guns" in mind.
Let's face it... if you have a stock ALT/BAT (say... 75A./600 CCA) and 1200 watts RMS amp that pulls 120A plus, any surge cap will be insufficient to do that job well. Add a decent 4 channel amp into the mix (100 x 4), now we are really over the top in current draw. I don't know of any cap that will manage that much continous power plus transient peaks.
Was reading (research) on this topic this week and they were discussing large current draw sub amps and such. The Cap was mentioned, but not as a cure all fix. I think it was info off the Power Acoustik site in their tech section. The general read i got from this one, was that if using high current hogging amps, need beefed up power from the ALT & BAT.
Here: http://www.poweracoustik.com/SUPPORT/installation/PowerRequirements.html
Some may find this interesting. PA also sells CAPs. (1.2 Farad versions, up to 20 Farads) So their position may be a bit biased in some way as they make/sell them too. So keeping a neutral position on CAPs, make sense.
Thank God we live in America. We tolerate differing opinions and preferences. I guess in this topic, we can rightfully choose to disagree. But if I had to spend $150.00 on power compensation... it's going in the battery or a larger Alt and maybe a larger wire kit.
Peace out,
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/3/2004 17:26:28
thanks Swez I don't dont think i would wanna be in the vehicle too long with 1200 watts going my 400 setup i got now is enough to already lol, I might just get big battery, already got a 850 cca so
uochronos on 07/3/2004 23:38:49
i agree kiittle that caps can be somewhat usefull in systems where it just need to even out a few peaks here and there but the system is adequatly charged... but most shops recomend them to novices to fix problems like severe dimming... hell i was trying to buy a 1000cca optima yellow top for my truck and the guy said he could order me one but would not because what i really needed was a power cap. strangly the cap he was recomendign was a quite bit mroe spendy then the battery i wanted...
well, as some of you know, i just started installing professionally about 3 months ago. In those 3 months, i have learned more than i had learned in doing side jobs by myself for 3 years.
one thing that i never work on is using power capacitors. i know several of you guys here do not recommend them. i was wondering why this is so?? i had always heard that caps are how you prevent dimming. any feedback would be appreciated.
take care,
-UK
Replies (16)
uochronos on 07/2/2004 02:45:57
i strongly dont recomend them because i ahev seen in friends vehicles that they do not work.
for an example myself adn a friend had very similar systems in very similar cars both had dimming problems i solved mine with a smaller alternator pully and a larger CCA battery. he solved his with a power cap. mine never dimmed again in that car.. his on the other hand still dimmed and drained his battery even worse then before.
also a 800cca battery has about 100,000 times more power storage then a 1 farad power cap. and they run about the same price....
maybe if you had upgraded your alternaot and up graded your battery and had no dimming but wanted to make sure any extreme bass spikes where cover a power cap may have some advantage.. but even then i would opt for a second battery...
also i have heard of Caps exploding when do it yourselfers do it wrong... not 100% sure one the newer ones but a few years back i heard of it fairly often...
also i heard someone i belive swez or ttocs here say that even the original inventors of the power caps say now that they have very little usefullness..
the only thing i actualy like about them is in some installs they look very cool. but aside from the look i see little advantage to one. although i guarentee you that you can find people that well argue they are a god send for hourse on end.... then again i know people who think its a good idea to slide down a hill on skateboards on there bellies with no protective gear doing like 35mph. so not hard to find people that ignore logic:)
swez on 07/2/2004 08:06:59
Yes, they look cool like auto jewlery, but as far as really living up to expectations VS reality... they just don't make the cut after Fridays' pruning.
How they work... they really don't. If you want a long but accurate read on the subject, have a look at this piece:
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
Mr. B and Swez, co-wrote it several years ago and the information is as current now as it was then.
Enjoy the read and learn session,
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/2/2004 10:08:17
thanks for the good info, If I get this ranger ive been talking about, what should I do if i plan to put in about 1200watts worth of amps, by the way ive had my kicker 12s cranked all the way driving my f 150 through town and volt gauge was dipping to like 8 volts so also this ranger doesnt have the best alternator, so i would think i would have to beef it up
uochronos on 07/2/2004 14:11:32
i have a 2003ranger FX4 with the 4 liter engine and the biggest alternator they come with stock... and it was diming slightly with a 500watt amp.... i now run a 2 channel amp [putting out 125 rms to each channel and a 1200watt mono amp,. i up graded to a 200amp alternator and a nice 800cca batter. i still can make the lights dim if i get carried away. but honestly the bass gets way too loud in the little cabin long before i usualy start to dim.
racerbizoehm on 07/2/2004 14:39:16
well this is a 1985 ranger lol
uochronos on 07/2/2004 15:14:54
i know that was my pointsort of just didnt say it right,,, a 85 ranegr is going to have alot weaker of a electrikcal system... if your going to have just 1200watt of amping i would suggest a 200amp altyernatore and a 800-900 cca battery... my friend has a 88 ranger and pushes 400watts with little diming and just an upgraded battery... but 1200 well be a huge drain on your system upwards of 120amp being pulled if you have it cranked all the way up
racerbizoehm on 07/2/2004 20:40:10
ok i gotta find a big alternator like that which may be difficult, but maybe i could get away with it because, the only time i would crank it is like competitions and showing off other wise would be prety def so i'll see when i get to that step
swez on 07/2/2004 22:22:10
Can always try the system as stock and dial way back on the bass amp gains when not competing. For everyday driving, just use enough bass amp power to sound balanced.
Also, at night... just cool it when your lights and A/C are on. If you charging voltage drops below ~10.0 volts, the car will die and you will be stranded until you get a jump. Might be a good idea to carry a good set of jumper cables and/or one of those jumper type battery kits.
Like this one... has an air compressor, pressure gage, work lamp and jumper cables with 900 watt battery:
http://www.brandsonsale.com/porjumstarba.html
This should start your car again and then turn off you audio system on the way home to allow the ALT to recharge the BAT.
Swez
uochronos on 07/2/2004 22:26:07
i have one of those jumper batteries its the best 80$ i have ever spent used it countless times. take it on all road trips and what not. even use it to power a portable 12 volt cooler when camping:)
UKinstaller on 07/3/2004 01:51:37
fascinating. simply fascinating.
ya know, i have no idea why, but in my 92 rodeo, i have an 800 watt fosgate amp pushing two 12's, and the lights don't dim even the slightest. however, my friend has a 99 olds alero, and he has a 3 or 400 watt alpine amp pushing one 10, and his lights dim like crazy. he has a 4 channel amp, too, though.
-UK
uochronos on 07/3/2004 01:55:56
4 channel amp well pull alot more... my lights only dimmed wbecause i was runing an A/B and not a D class amp that was 500 watts... i dont think i would have dimmed with a 500watt d class amp.... although since i'm upgradeing to a 4 channel ampo and a 1200watt mono amp its a good thing i upgraded anyway:)
cplkittle on 07/3/2004 08:26:14
I jumped on the hate caps bandwagon a while back, but after seeing the difference in a few vehicles, I have a slightly different opinion.
Caps work on everyday driving SQ installations. Country, Rock, Pop, and some Rap. Caps will not work if you are playing synthesized bass CDs that generate constant low frequency notes (the kind that annoys everyone in the neighborhood).
Stinger has a new hybrid cap out now that really kicks butt. They come in 10, 15, 20, and 35 farad sizes. These are 24v surge caps that really help out for longer periods of constant low frequency notes.
Now I'm not saying caps solve all the problems, they are designed to supply critical power when the amp sucks hard on a low drop, they refuel themselves when the bass tones itself down for a few seconds. Caps are actually fast discharge/recharge batteries, and they are the cheapest quick fix for a bad ratio of amp power v/s alt+battery power. Yes, batteries hold a thousand times more charge, but they can't deliver that charge like a cap can.
Pinch on 07/3/2004 12:39:58
I agree Cpl. I think a lot of the reason many on this forum dislike caps is they compare them to batteries and a new alternator in their ability to act as a current source for systems. In that respect, they're awesome paperweights but poor sources. However, they can be useful if used correctly and for the right reason. For example, a vehicle with a competant charging system which is up to the demands being imposed on it would be most happy to have a large cap smoothing out the instantaneous current demands of a thumpin system. A vehicle with dimming interior lights on the other hand, would see the cap as just another electrical load thus further straining the system. In short, I think it is unfair to say that batteries can store more electrical energy and are a better buy because of it. The system needs to be evaluated as a whole (which as a side note, this forum is EXTREMELY good at doing :).
swez on 07/3/2004 15:16:41
The debate continues... yeah, I agree that a Cap can do OK in a moderately loaded system. (an adequate job) But this is not the case for most guys that come into the game with "Big Guns" in mind.
Let's face it... if you have a stock ALT/BAT (say... 75A./600 CCA) and 1200 watts RMS amp that pulls 120A plus, any surge cap will be insufficient to do that job well. Add a decent 4 channel amp into the mix (100 x 4), now we are really over the top in current draw. I don't know of any cap that will manage that much continous power plus transient peaks.
Was reading (research) on this topic this week and they were discussing large current draw sub amps and such. The Cap was mentioned, but not as a cure all fix. I think it was info off the Power Acoustik site in their tech section. The general read i got from this one, was that if using high current hogging amps, need beefed up power from the ALT & BAT.
Here: http://www.poweracoustik.com/SUPPORT/installation/PowerRequirements.html
Some may find this interesting. PA also sells CAPs. (1.2 Farad versions, up to 20 Farads) So their position may be a bit biased in some way as they make/sell them too. So keeping a neutral position on CAPs, make sense.
Thank God we live in America. We tolerate differing opinions and preferences. I guess in this topic, we can rightfully choose to disagree. But if I had to spend $150.00 on power compensation... it's going in the battery or a larger Alt and maybe a larger wire kit.
Peace out,
Swez
racerbizoehm on 07/3/2004 17:26:28
thanks Swez I don't dont think i would wanna be in the vehicle too long with 1200 watts going my 400 setup i got now is enough to already lol, I might just get big battery, already got a 850 cca so
uochronos on 07/3/2004 23:38:49
i agree kiittle that caps can be somewhat usefull in systems where it just need to even out a few peaks here and there but the system is adequatly charged... but most shops recomend them to novices to fix problems like severe dimming... hell i was trying to buy a 1000cca optima yellow top for my truck and the guy said he could order me one but would not because what i really needed was a power cap. strangly the cap he was recomendign was a quite bit mroe spendy then the battery i wanted...
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