Hey guys,
We are in the last stretch now and it is to cure the light dimming problem. As I said before what is happening is that when we listen above a certain threshold on the HU gain we can see flickering (momentary dimming) of the headlights on the wall of the garage during loud bass transients. It's not real bad and the volume we start to hear this at is fairly high but with this system very listenable. I've gotten a lot of good info on things to do from Swez and others and we are looking into all of those. Finding a good high CCA battery is turning out to be somewhat problematic but I've got some leads.
The question I've got is about Caps. When I spoke to the guy at Sound Domain he immediately suggested a cap and others have aid that also but a lot of what I've read says that is not a good solution. Comments?
Brian
Replies (9)
swez on 06/19/2004 17:47:07
Read this FAQ on Caps, Dogs and.... a good friend & I wrote it... abit windy at times too. But you will have a very good read and know what options work and what does not.
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
Swez
Buffalo on 06/19/2004 22:11:11
As always, Thanks, Swez
ttocs on 06/20/2004 02:44:49
I can solve your problem alot easier, stop cranking it in the garage... The neighbors will thank you also........
Munchiesyumm on 06/20/2004 03:49:10
Also
I'd like to note that if you're playing it loudly in you're garage I persume you have it in idle and you're alt cannot supply the battery as much power as it could normally because ALTs put out more power when the engine is turning a higher RPM.
Just felt like throwing that out there.
swez on 06/20/2004 08:55:40
True, at idle speed, the alternator has a low output level. Full output usually comes into play at ~2000 RPM.
Like tuning up to some older Pink Floyd music as the material has a lot of dynamic range. One song may be very mellow and low key, when all of a sudden... Whammo, in comes the thunder, screaming guitar licks and heavy drum kit stuff and deep sweeping bass.
If you can get this to sound good at near flat settings on EQ, the system is well balanced from lows, mids and highs. Yonni, "Live at the Acropolis", is another good SQ tuning CD. Plenty of dynamic range there too. Not just bang bang, boom boom all the time. Lots of instrumental detail.
Just thought you might have one of those in your listening library to try out.
Swez
PS Buffalo, in your opinion... how is the project turning out from your perspective? Does the system sound up to your expectations?
cplkittle on 06/20/2004 23:32:06
Just a quick question about your last post, Swez..
I know the old one wire alternators or generators as they were sometimes called varied in output, but with the new ones isn't the output the same? I have heard both sides to this story, and am looking for reasoning from each to come to my own conclusion.
my friend argued with me the other day when i revved my engine to juice up his battery while attempting to jump start his car. He told me that that didn't help on the newer vehicles with computer controlled voltage regulators and such..
swez on 06/21/2004 00:09:38
Older cars with generators were a real pain. They did not have much in the way of regulated voltage or current. Just shoved as much current out to battery and electrical devices as was possible from the GEN. There was a voltage regulator on them, so the system would not go ballistic with excess voltage.
Newer cars have much more sophisticated electronics. The ECM (Engine Control Module) monitors all primary electrical circuits and adjust voltage and current demands from the ALT., to meet the loading demand. However, at a cold start, the ALT can often put out over 14.5 volts to rechagre the battery, then return to normal state output range of 13.5 -14.0 volts DC.
The Voltage regulator is often integrated into the ALT housing. This is a moderately complex "HYBRID" (surface mount componets and metal traces on a ceramic substrate) module with switching diodes, power clamping transistors and a few other circuits that hear and tell the ECM what it is doing at a given point in time. The ECM controlls it, but the regulator changes output based on load sensing in the ECM.
If you grab a VOM, attach leads to the battery and set at say 15-20 volts. (DC scale), you will probably see ~12.5 volts DC at the battery. Start the engine and watch the voltage output drive upward to maybe 15 volts DC. As the engine warms up and recharges the battery, the engine RPM will drop (thanks to ECM) and the charging voltage will eventually normalize at around 13.5 volts.
Not all cars work the same. Some ECM systems are very complex and monitor several outboard computers at the same time. These systems are often highly regulated. The best you may see is ~14.4 volts at start and 13.0 after full charge is reached.
Example:
Had a 1990 Olds Trofeo' for a few years and became very familiar with the quirks in this vehicles' electrical system. It was nothing close to any car I owned previously or since. It had a very tightly controlled output range via the ECM. This ECM, in conjunction with the BCM (Body Control Module) ABS, (anti-lock brakes) SIR, (air bag) and auto-leveling systems are all computer driven circuits and this data buss system fed information to the ECM at all times, to adjust and optimize engine performance and economy.
I knew there were some quirks as it went through 4 ALTs and 3 batteries in a 6 year span. I eventually fixed all the quirks, sold the car (for more than it was really worth) and now I learned that it was totaled by a deer collision. The car was trashed pretty much after I sold it. It went south to Tennessee, lasted 3-4 months and th lady driving it, hit a deer. Dang... with all the lights I installed in it... any self-respecting deer would either vamoose, be seen soon enough to avoid or scare the poor thing into a heart attack.
That's my story and I'm sticking too it. Hope the details are helpful!
Swez
Buffalo on 06/21/2004 07:46:09
Swez,
Actually it's funny you should ask that. I finally had a chance to take the car out on Saturday to run a number of errands so I took along one of my all time favorite Little Feat CD's. Title escapes me but it's post Lowell George and has Rad Gumbo on it. This is one a the cleanest recordings I own and has a lot of dynamics as you say. Not to mention some of the finest pure rock and roll ever laid down. Anyway I go the thing cranked and I was just blown away. It came damn close to my home system and that's saying something. If I discount all the attendant acoustacal problems trying to setup a car environment I think this sytem could better my home system. My son played with the levels and he has got it almost perfectly trimmed out. I still think he's got a little to much rear deck and not enough up front but we've agreed to disagree on that one. As to the install I would do it again but I don't think I want to make it a hobby. I have too many other hobbies right now. As a father/son exercise it's been great. He's learned a lot and so have I and I'm not talking about sound systems now. And we owe a lot of this to you guys. Without all the great advice I'm convinced we would have ended up with something less than what he's got now.
One more question on thei light dimming thing. If we do nothing what is the worst that can happen? Is there a danger of him being stranded on the road at night?
swez on 06/21/2004 14:15:18
If he gets severe light dimming at night, watch the voltage gage or dummy light on the dash. If the voltage drops below a given set point... usually about 10.5 volts in many cars, the engine will begin to sputter and may die out and stall. That will strand him for a time until the battery builds up enough charge to restart the car an limp it home.
WITHOUT THE STEREO ON AT ALL!!! Put the Bat on a trickle charger overnight. (2-6 amp charge rate)
May need a jump if the battery cannot regroup in 30 minutes or so. Very hard on the battery and ALT when doing this on a regular basis too. A few cycles like this and the battery will usually die for good. Time for a new Battery. If severe enough, the battery can short internally and wipe out the ALT as well.
===================================================
For now, might be best to give the car a 10-20 minute recharge period with audio off and only parking lights on. (RPM up ~2000) This will greatly reduce low battery conditions, charge the system up again and get back to the barn safely. Again, that magic number for most cars to crap out, is ~10.5 volts or less. Avoid that one like a plague.
===================================================
Finally, we discussed installing a larger CCA rated battery. An 800 + CCA Battery will offer more current before the system gets overloaded and collapses. The other thing that can/should be done is to:
1. Upgrade wire from ALT to BAT (#4 gage)
2. Upgrade the wire from BAT to GND (#4 gage)
3. Add a 2nd grounding strap braid from engine block to body GND
These will make the current flow from the ALT to BAT and other electricals more efficient. Really, this is a very low budget upgrade.. just time and aggrivation to install new wires. That Civic probably has a pretty modest ALT in the Electrical package. I would not be shocked if it were <80 amperes at full output.
Worst case, a high current model (150A or so) ALT may be needed, if he persists on playing it loud at night. That is when the electrical load is often highest from the basic car electricals... lights, fogs, defroster, A/C or heater blower motor is running on high speeds. (cooling or heating) That upgrade is very effective, but very expensive in some vehicles.
Hope that helps,
Swez
We are in the last stretch now and it is to cure the light dimming problem. As I said before what is happening is that when we listen above a certain threshold on the HU gain we can see flickering (momentary dimming) of the headlights on the wall of the garage during loud bass transients. It's not real bad and the volume we start to hear this at is fairly high but with this system very listenable. I've gotten a lot of good info on things to do from Swez and others and we are looking into all of those. Finding a good high CCA battery is turning out to be somewhat problematic but I've got some leads.
The question I've got is about Caps. When I spoke to the guy at Sound Domain he immediately suggested a cap and others have aid that also but a lot of what I've read says that is not a good solution. Comments?
Brian
Replies (9)
swez on 06/19/2004 17:47:07
Read this FAQ on Caps, Dogs and.... a good friend & I wrote it... abit windy at times too. But you will have a very good read and know what options work and what does not.
http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
Swez
Buffalo on 06/19/2004 22:11:11
As always, Thanks, Swez
ttocs on 06/20/2004 02:44:49
I can solve your problem alot easier, stop cranking it in the garage... The neighbors will thank you also........
Munchiesyumm on 06/20/2004 03:49:10
Also
I'd like to note that if you're playing it loudly in you're garage I persume you have it in idle and you're alt cannot supply the battery as much power as it could normally because ALTs put out more power when the engine is turning a higher RPM.
Just felt like throwing that out there.
swez on 06/20/2004 08:55:40
True, at idle speed, the alternator has a low output level. Full output usually comes into play at ~2000 RPM.
Like tuning up to some older Pink Floyd music as the material has a lot of dynamic range. One song may be very mellow and low key, when all of a sudden... Whammo, in comes the thunder, screaming guitar licks and heavy drum kit stuff and deep sweeping bass.
If you can get this to sound good at near flat settings on EQ, the system is well balanced from lows, mids and highs. Yonni, "Live at the Acropolis", is another good SQ tuning CD. Plenty of dynamic range there too. Not just bang bang, boom boom all the time. Lots of instrumental detail.
Just thought you might have one of those in your listening library to try out.
Swez
PS Buffalo, in your opinion... how is the project turning out from your perspective? Does the system sound up to your expectations?
cplkittle on 06/20/2004 23:32:06
Just a quick question about your last post, Swez..
I know the old one wire alternators or generators as they were sometimes called varied in output, but with the new ones isn't the output the same? I have heard both sides to this story, and am looking for reasoning from each to come to my own conclusion.
my friend argued with me the other day when i revved my engine to juice up his battery while attempting to jump start his car. He told me that that didn't help on the newer vehicles with computer controlled voltage regulators and such..
swez on 06/21/2004 00:09:38
Older cars with generators were a real pain. They did not have much in the way of regulated voltage or current. Just shoved as much current out to battery and electrical devices as was possible from the GEN. There was a voltage regulator on them, so the system would not go ballistic with excess voltage.
Newer cars have much more sophisticated electronics. The ECM (Engine Control Module) monitors all primary electrical circuits and adjust voltage and current demands from the ALT., to meet the loading demand. However, at a cold start, the ALT can often put out over 14.5 volts to rechagre the battery, then return to normal state output range of 13.5 -14.0 volts DC.
The Voltage regulator is often integrated into the ALT housing. This is a moderately complex "HYBRID" (surface mount componets and metal traces on a ceramic substrate) module with switching diodes, power clamping transistors and a few other circuits that hear and tell the ECM what it is doing at a given point in time. The ECM controlls it, but the regulator changes output based on load sensing in the ECM.
If you grab a VOM, attach leads to the battery and set at say 15-20 volts. (DC scale), you will probably see ~12.5 volts DC at the battery. Start the engine and watch the voltage output drive upward to maybe 15 volts DC. As the engine warms up and recharges the battery, the engine RPM will drop (thanks to ECM) and the charging voltage will eventually normalize at around 13.5 volts.
Not all cars work the same. Some ECM systems are very complex and monitor several outboard computers at the same time. These systems are often highly regulated. The best you may see is ~14.4 volts at start and 13.0 after full charge is reached.
Example:
Had a 1990 Olds Trofeo' for a few years and became very familiar with the quirks in this vehicles' electrical system. It was nothing close to any car I owned previously or since. It had a very tightly controlled output range via the ECM. This ECM, in conjunction with the BCM (Body Control Module) ABS, (anti-lock brakes) SIR, (air bag) and auto-leveling systems are all computer driven circuits and this data buss system fed information to the ECM at all times, to adjust and optimize engine performance and economy.
I knew there were some quirks as it went through 4 ALTs and 3 batteries in a 6 year span. I eventually fixed all the quirks, sold the car (for more than it was really worth) and now I learned that it was totaled by a deer collision. The car was trashed pretty much after I sold it. It went south to Tennessee, lasted 3-4 months and th lady driving it, hit a deer. Dang... with all the lights I installed in it... any self-respecting deer would either vamoose, be seen soon enough to avoid or scare the poor thing into a heart attack.
That's my story and I'm sticking too it. Hope the details are helpful!
Swez
Buffalo on 06/21/2004 07:46:09
Swez,
Actually it's funny you should ask that. I finally had a chance to take the car out on Saturday to run a number of errands so I took along one of my all time favorite Little Feat CD's. Title escapes me but it's post Lowell George and has Rad Gumbo on it. This is one a the cleanest recordings I own and has a lot of dynamics as you say. Not to mention some of the finest pure rock and roll ever laid down. Anyway I go the thing cranked and I was just blown away. It came damn close to my home system and that's saying something. If I discount all the attendant acoustacal problems trying to setup a car environment I think this sytem could better my home system. My son played with the levels and he has got it almost perfectly trimmed out. I still think he's got a little to much rear deck and not enough up front but we've agreed to disagree on that one. As to the install I would do it again but I don't think I want to make it a hobby. I have too many other hobbies right now. As a father/son exercise it's been great. He's learned a lot and so have I and I'm not talking about sound systems now. And we owe a lot of this to you guys. Without all the great advice I'm convinced we would have ended up with something less than what he's got now.
One more question on thei light dimming thing. If we do nothing what is the worst that can happen? Is there a danger of him being stranded on the road at night?
swez on 06/21/2004 14:15:18
If he gets severe light dimming at night, watch the voltage gage or dummy light on the dash. If the voltage drops below a given set point... usually about 10.5 volts in many cars, the engine will begin to sputter and may die out and stall. That will strand him for a time until the battery builds up enough charge to restart the car an limp it home.
WITHOUT THE STEREO ON AT ALL!!! Put the Bat on a trickle charger overnight. (2-6 amp charge rate)
May need a jump if the battery cannot regroup in 30 minutes or so. Very hard on the battery and ALT when doing this on a regular basis too. A few cycles like this and the battery will usually die for good. Time for a new Battery. If severe enough, the battery can short internally and wipe out the ALT as well.
===================================================
For now, might be best to give the car a 10-20 minute recharge period with audio off and only parking lights on. (RPM up ~2000) This will greatly reduce low battery conditions, charge the system up again and get back to the barn safely. Again, that magic number for most cars to crap out, is ~10.5 volts or less. Avoid that one like a plague.
===================================================
Finally, we discussed installing a larger CCA rated battery. An 800 + CCA Battery will offer more current before the system gets overloaded and collapses. The other thing that can/should be done is to:
1. Upgrade wire from ALT to BAT (#4 gage)
2. Upgrade the wire from BAT to GND (#4 gage)
3. Add a 2nd grounding strap braid from engine block to body GND
These will make the current flow from the ALT to BAT and other electricals more efficient. Really, this is a very low budget upgrade.. just time and aggrivation to install new wires. That Civic probably has a pretty modest ALT in the Electrical package. I would not be shocked if it were <80 amperes at full output.
Worst case, a high current model (150A or so) ALT may be needed, if he persists on playing it loud at night. That is when the electrical load is often highest from the basic car electricals... lights, fogs, defroster, A/C or heater blower motor is running on high speeds. (cooling or heating) That upgrade is very effective, but very expensive in some vehicles.
Hope that helps,
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
