So far my setup consists of the following:
JVC SH9750 Head - 18Wx4 RMS
- soon to be replaced by... I dont know yet.
Front: Alpine Type-S 5x7 40w RMS / 200w peak
- soon to be replaced by Boston Acoustics NX67
Rear: Alpine Type-R 6x9 50w RMS / 120w peak
Speaker amp (not connected yet): Alpine MRV-F340 55Wx4 RMS (4 ohm)
All of my wiring is stock... recommended wiring?
I'm looking for clean sound quality still with a punch, even at low volumes and premium speakers (I boycott MTX, Kenwood, Sony, Infinity, JBL, Pioneer, Audiobahn and the like... especially Kicker. MAD)
What amplifiers, subwoofers, and head unit or anything else would you recommend to complete my system (please... a maximum of three subs)?
Alpine Type-Xs are sexy looking. THINK
Replies (42)
aposynthesi on 06/17/2004 10:11:04
Ahem... head will now be replaced by Alpine's CDA-9835.
ryan on 06/17/2004 12:43:03
Whats your budget for everything? Do you prefer 10's or 12's or doesnt matter?
aposynthesi on 06/17/2004 13:26:40
I really don't like to set budgets for things though, I'd rather save up for higher quality. If I had to, I'd say $500-700 minimum.
aposynthesi on 06/17/2004 13:30:22
... and it doesn't matter what size. I'd prefer everyones personal unlimited opinion.
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 12:33:45
No replies FROWN
swez on 06/18/2004 13:05:57
Kinda tough to press on when some of our favorite gear is on the boycott list... hehe
Very good HU that Alpine you have pending. Lots of nice features too. The Speakers mentioned are very good too. If you have not purchased the Boston's yet, consider the CDT CL-61a . They are 6.5" comps and wwell above average in power handling, crossovers and great midbass too. At $150.00 a pair off Zeb Audio... hard to beat.
That Alpine amp is a good start for interior speakers. A little more power would be nice... but not a must have though.
Tell us more about the kind of sub sound you want and power range of amp you wish to use. Then we can make some solid recommendations to fit your needs. Am sure that trunk is like a cave so no problems with a pair of 10's, 12's or even 15's if you so desire.
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 13:21:35
Fine, maybe I'll un-boycott uhhh... *insert your favorite here*.
The RMS for both pairs of my speakers does not go over 50W RMS, and the F340 is 55W RMS @ 4ohms.
For subs, I'd want say... ~500W RMS @ 4ohms.
Sorry for aggrivating you. FROWN FROWN FROWN FROWN
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 15:57:07
Here are some reference pictures of my trunk:
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_lower.jpg
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_upper.jpg
swez on 06/18/2004 17:18:11
That's a few great shots of the trunk! Looks like the amps (an amp rack) can be fitted on the upper shelf (below rear deck speakers) and your sub enclosure will fit nicely in the lower well. Clean little thing too! Looks almost showroom new. Is there a fiber pad that goes under the carpet for sound deadening too? My Buick LeSabre looks very similar, but no upper shelf and has a full 1" thick wool/fiber noise pad as well.
OK, do you have a preference on the type of bass you like best? Ie: punchy quick bass... (Rock, Techno) OR.... lots of deep bass. (Rap, Jazz or R&B) Should be able to find a pair of 10's or 12's in that power range and stay off the "boycott list too". SMILE SQ, SPL or SQL sub choices here?
Can you take a few measurments of the lower trunk housing space? That will help define the box maximum parameters and sub choices. Figure on rear firing these subs to back bumper for best bass performance. That's not a hard and fast rule. But it seems to pan out best for 90% of the installs I have worked with.
Height max:
Width max:
Depth max:
Also, your rear deck speakers may need some kind of acoustical barrier. Medium - High SPL subs can really play havoc on unshielded rear deck speakers. The bass waves are so strong, they make the rear deck cones go spastic w/o some way to block out the bass. Some use tupperware or other semi-rigid material and some packing of fiberglass, polyfill or similar sound dampening material. It will be easier to do now, than when the subs are installed.
Finally, are you planning to make or buy your sub enclosure? Ported or sealed?
Swez
PS I was not "miffed" at your boycott list... just found it amusing as this is the first time in 4 years of doing this board, that someone had a "boycott" list. Care to share your views on why?
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 19:05:32
You should see my trunk when it's full of my drumset! It's pretty awesome that the whole thing fits in there.
Here are measurements:
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_lower_mm.jpg
Heres a rad area on the side:
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_side.jpg
For my bass, I prefer it to be punchy, but also have enough deep bass for parts of songs that aren't as fast. I will be making a ported sub enclosure.
My deck will be finished before I even start the trunk, so the subs shouldn't interfere with the 6x9's.
Haha, I made the boycott list because every time that I've gone into Best Buy, or Circuit City, speakers by those companies have been playing extremely loud by asshats who didn't know what they were doing, so that kind of ruined it for me. Plus I'm one of those people who get happy when people say "I've never heard of them."
Sean
swez on 06/19/2004 11:38:10
Sean,
Ahhhh, now I get the picture on boycott stuff and I really do appreciate your comment on: [Plus I'm one of those people who get happy when people say "I've never heard of them."] Know what ya mean.... Never heard of that brand huh? Well, listen to this... demo your setup... ooooo's, ahhhhhh's, ummmmmm's (a 4th of July experience) says the listener as he is amazed by the almost concert level sound in your ride. hehe
OK, as for size of subs, looks like you have room for a pair of 12's here and can go ported if you wish. Personally, sealed will net best punch, (well controlled) deep bass and in a 50% smaller enclosure. Yes, you will give up a few dB of bass SPL... but unless you are planning to compete in SPL COMPS, not an issue.
As for popular subs, many like Alpine, Eclipse, Rockford and Infinity. Tight sound, not overly expensive and easy to find in several voice coil arrangments.
If you want something out of the ordinary... consider Elemental Designs, Adire Brahma, Diamond, Phoenix Gold or JL.
==================================================
Detailed specs and links:
Diamond Audio: CM3-12D2 or 12D4
2 or 4 ohm DVC's available in this series
http://www.diamondaudio.com/MobileAudio/index.cfm?page=Subwoofers (general product page)
http://www.diamondaudio.com//Files/products/CM3%5Fspec%5Frev1%2Epdf (sub specs, enclosure recommendations in .pdf file)
A Google web search will give you an idea on prices, reviews and where to buy these subs.
==================================================
Example: Short form shopping list....
Diamond Audio CM3-12D4 ****
12 Inch, 4+4 DVC, 500 Watts RMS
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12441 $109.00/ea.
===================================================
Phoenix Gold Ti12D ****
12 Inch 4 Ohm Dual Voice Coil Subwoofer
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13026 $179.00/ea.
===================================================
Phoenix Gold Ti12 ***
12 Inch 4 Ohm Subwoofer (SVC 4 ohms)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13025 $145.00/ea.
===================================================
Earthquake DBX12D *** (SPL sub mostly)
12" Subwoofer 4 ohm DVC, 400 watts RMS
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12612 $139.00/ea.
===================================================
JL Audio 12W6v2 ****
12" Subwoofer, 4+4 DVC 400 Watts RMS
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12514 $339.00/ea. (a bit pricey huh?)
===================================================
Adire Brahma 12 ****
2+2 DVC only 1600 watts RMS
http://www.adireaudio.com/StockProducts/raw_drivers.htm#Brahma
$379.00/ea. (Not cheap here either)
==================================================
Elemental Designs ****.5
130.v2, 2+2 or 4+4 DVC's 900 watts RMS
http://www.edesignaudio.com/ov2.htm $165.00/ea. (Best value Buy)
This brand is coming on strong as a premium SQL driver
===================================================
OK, there's a pretty good listing of very good subs in the power range mentioned. Most are DVC models (2+2 or 4+4 DVC's). As such, a Class "D" or "T" amp will do the job.
When using a pair 2+2 or a pair of 4 ohm subs, can get the job done with a 2 ohm stable sub amp. If you opt for a pair 4+4 DVC's, need an amp that will handle 1 ohm loads.
If you elect to go ported, make sure you get an amp that has subsonic filtering built in or add a set of F-Mods ($26.00/pr.) to block subsonics to ported subs.
Finally, suggested power range for the sub amp should be in the 1000 -1500 watt category. Pick a sub that appeals to you most, then we can define the enclosure specs and the best amp choice to drive them.
Comments?
Swez
PS Do you have a sub amp choice in mind yet?
aposynthesi on 06/19/2004 14:16:40
Wouldn't the 4+4's have a better SQ than the 2+2's, and why would I need a 1 ohm stable amp for the 4's, and not the 2's?
Maybe I've just got everything mixed up, I thought the higher number ohms were better.
I will go sealed, as you said sealed would put out a tighter punch with deep bass... like I wanted.
Shouldn't I be getting two amp's along with the two subs, instead of linking them?
Brahmas and JL's are too expensive for a single sub, and I like the Diamond Audio and Elemental Designs price-performance deal.
What about the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF or the MB Quart PWE 302/304? I just saw that Alpine subs are only 300W RMS, 87 sensitivity, so those are a no.
I don't know... stuff (in better terms)... about amplifiers. So I can't answer you last question. Would my HU be able to control other companies amps with Bass Engine Pro?
Feel free to slap me if you must.
Thanks x 100,05406,460617,899999999999999
Sean
uochronos on 06/19/2004 15:22:18
ohmage just changes what amp you can use with the subs higher or lower ohms does not give better quality sound... 2+2 ohm dual voice coils can wire ech sub to a 4 ohm load or a 1 ohm load or wire 2 of these subs into a 2 ohm or 8ohm load.... where as a 4+4 ohm sub can be wired to get 8 ohm or 2 ohm alone or with 2 subs be wired to get 4 ohm or 1 ohm load... i hope that helps you a bit understanding that.
no as far as getting 2 amps or even a 2 channel amp too run 2 subs this well work but well cost alot more be alot bulkier and drain alot more power then a single 1 channel amp well. you wont gain sound quality or power by using 2 amps so its only logical to go with a 1 channel class D or class T amplifier.
as for brahmas and jl's being too expensive for a single sub alot of times this is because 1 sub can be as loud as 2... 1 JL w7 well rip your car apart in the right enclosure and a single w6 can do so as well. also brahams are very potent subs when just using one.
also if your looking at elemental designs they have there A15AE on sale for only 270$ an amazing sub for the price. its last years model so they are clearing them all out.
aposynthesi on 06/20/2004 15:33:45
Hmm... it says that Swez posted last, but uochronos did.
Uochronos: I get what you're talking about, two 4 ohm speakers ran parallel make 2 ohms, or in a series would make 8 ohms - two 2 ohm speakers ran parallel make 1 ohm, and in series make 4 ohms. Right?
So basically, I'd want to get 4 ohm subs if I wanted to run at 2 ohms parallel, or 2 ohms if I wanted to run them at 4 ohms in a series.
Hmm...
swez on 06/20/2004 17:24:39
Your general target is 1 or 2 ohms load to the amp you choose. Here's a quick summary of what can be done: BTW, you are on the right track so far.
1. A Pair of 2+2 DVC's
a. Wire sub A coils in Series for a 4 ohm load
b. Now do the same with sub B (4 ohms again)
c. Now wire both (now 4 ohm subs) in parallel to amp for a net 2 ohm load.
This is a perfect match for Most Class D sub amps.
2. Using a pair of 4+4 DVC's now
a. Wire sub A coils in parallel for a 2 ohm load
b. Do the same for sub B (2 ohms here as well)
c. Now, wiring both subs in parallel will give you a 1 ohm load
NOTE: Current draw management is key to a potent system that won't kill your electrical system. That's why we recommend Class D or T amps for subs. These are ~90% efficient. (meaning... they draw 1000 watts from electricals, but return 90% of that to amplifier to power subs)
Now, there are High Current amps (HC class) out there... (Class A/B types) that are often 2 channel and can be bridged to run below 1 ohm. These puppies are real current hogs and deliver ~60% efficiency to subs. Avoid this step unless you plan to go all out in SPL COMPS. Major electrical upgrades are needed when taking this route.
Finally, use a Class D or T Mono amp for 2 subs. The 2+2 DVC is the best overall choice as there are many fine MONO amps that can deliver 1000 - 1200 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. Only a few can do 1 ohm loads well. The $$$ you have left after the subs are purchased, will determine the amp you choose. Realistically, 1000 watts RMS is plenty for your present application. Even at that, figure the current draw on your electricals will be pretty close to 100 amperes of current at full output.
Can your electrical system support that size amp and still maintain adequate watts to run your car? Most cars will run well on 40-50 amperes of current. Keep that in mind as we proceed.
Swez
PS A smaller amp (500 - 600 RMS) and a single strong sub (4+4 DVC) can be pretty darn loud. This system will draw about 50 amperes of current and will only be 3-6 dB less bass at half the price. Les space needed as well. Chew on that a while before you make your sub choice.
PSS Don't know much about Boston subs or the MBQ sub mentioned. Am sure they are high quality SQL subs too. Got a link or 2 for them... I can look em up for you and comment.
aposynthesi on 06/20/2004 19:04:21
Boston ProSeries 12.5LF:
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ca_product.asp?ProductID=93&CategoryID=17
MB Quart PWE 302/304:
http://www.mbquart.com/2003/en_US/products/prod_detail.asp?isArchive=&cat=auto&series=premium%20series&strt=1&model=PWE+302%2F304
This amplifier seems pretty rad (Swiss Audio):
http://purecaraudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=483
So does this one (Hifonics):
http://purecaraudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2187
Something like those amps would do well I suppose...
I'll keep that idea about one sub in my mind... would I be able to buy an amp that does say... 600W RMS at 2 ohms and use a 2 ohm sub? I may just do that and then do some midwoofers inside the car for better sound shaping.
Thanks Swez
- Sean
swez on 06/20/2004 23:35:08
Sean,
The Boston 12.5LF Series seems more like like a high SPL sub than SQ or SQL type sub. If you read the .pdf full detail spec sheet, it's more hype than facts. More of a (hype) sales pitch than an accurate
(technical) statement of what this woofer series is designed for. As a professional salesman and a Techie to boot, this kind of sales pitch turns me in a direction that takes me 180 degrees away from this kind of marketing hype. Not impressed with this page or pitch. For $300.00 a pop... there are better ways/products to spend your hard earned money.
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/newproduct/ProSubs.pdf
===================================================
The MB Quart PWE 302/304
This is an 2003 version sub. The web link given is like a mouse in a maze. But, I did find the specs off this .pdf:
http://www.mbquart.com/scripts/mbtech.cfg/php.exe/enduser/fattach_get.php?p_sid=tCyC5qeh&p_tbl=10&p_id=45&p_created=1056340099
There are no references to enclosure recommendations, but if we used the Theil/Small parameters, could come up with an enclosure design for them. My German, French and Spanish are not up to par either. hehe
Looking through the web pages, I found a site that carries this series. At $245.00/ea., they ought to be a solid piece of gear. Now.. if I can only find some useful specs on this sub.... Hummm, another set of rabbit trails on this product search as well. Nothing here to really tell much about this sub line either.
1. http://www.infinitecaraudio.com/cgi-bin/icastore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=PWE302
2. http://www.mbquart.com/2003/en_US/products/prod_detail.asp?isArchive=&cat=auto&series=premium%20series&strt=1&model=PWE+302%2F304
a. 600 watts input power (RMS or peak???)
b. 0.95 cf sealed
c. 2/2 or 4/4 DVC
d. Frequency range: 16-300 Hz.
e. Sensitivity: 2,8dB (have no clue what that means)
My best suggestion, contact a dealer that sells MBQ's and see if they have some useful product details on this sub.
1. Power handling in continous watts (RMS)
2. Enclosure recommendations for SQL bass applications
3. Voice coil configurations available (2+2), (4+4) (6+6) or other
Is there a specific reason why you chose either of these subs over the earlier listing given? Both of these subs mentioned are not very well noted on web sites I normally used to get much of the technical details from. That may indicate they do not endorse or support internet sales.. only high priced audio salons can sell them. (and at a hefty price tags too)
===================================================
Swiss Audio SDX1500 Mono Amplifier
CLASS D MONO BLOCK AMPLIFIER
1X1500 WATTS@ 1 OHM MONO
1X1000 WATTS@ 2 OHM MONO
1X500 WATTS@ 4 OHM MONO
VARIABLE BASS BOOST: 0-12db
THD: 0.05%
S/N: 100dB
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 5HZ-250HZ
VARIABLE 24dB LOW PASS FILTER: 50HZ-150HZ
TRIPLE GAUGE VU METER
BUILT-IN DIGITAL VARIABLE SUBSONIC, PHASE, LOW -PASS AND BASS BOOST CONTROLS
VARIABLE PHASE CONTROL: 0-180
4 WAY CIRCUIT PROTECTION: THERMAL, SHORT CIRCUIT, OVERLOAD AND DC OFFSET
DIMENSIONS: 206MM(W) X 60MM(H) X 430MM(L)
Comments:
Interesting and I have looked at these products before. Not sure if power ratings are RMS or peak. The price is pretty steep as well, but good features and plenty of output power as well. How much current does it draw? If we know the current draw to be over 120 amperes at full power, am sure this is a pretty solid amp.
Getting late and I have to stop for now... will come back with a few other selections ASAP.
Swez
cplkittle on 06/20/2004 23:43:49
looking at the first posts.. I have the CDA 9835.. love it
I would look into eclipse and diamond for subs and amps, both very powerful and clean.
Alpine type X subs are awesome.. have heard them and compared them to both diamond and eclipse. the diamonds are a little cleaner, but not much. The only flaw with the type X subs are that they have a little huff sound to them. I origionally thought this was the ported box, but it is audible in a sealed enclosure as well, making me believe that it is what's called motor noise. I highly recommend finding someone that carries these brands and listening to them before purchasing them. Especially if buying from ebay.
cplkittle on 06/20/2004 23:48:33
one other note.. the CDA9835 has some of the coolest features if you use an alpine amp as well. you can controll the amp almost entirely (set crossover points, gain, phase, bass boost, view current draw in amps, volts, and view amplifier internal temperature - all from the HU (CDA9835 and 9833)
Do some serious research of the differences in the two models mentioned above, there are not that many differences, except the price ($100) The multicolor display on the 9835 is only the button background lighting. the screen is black/green constantly
aposynthesi on 06/21/2004 00:46:25
cplkittle: I've already ordered the 9835, it should arrive tomorrow. Also, I've decided against Alpine Type-X's because of the exact reason you said. They're still pretty looking though.
aposynthesi on 06/21/2004 06:40:27
Going to Lakeland, FL until thursday... I may not be able to respond until then, so ta.
aposynthesi on 06/23/2004 11:30:14
I'm alive.
aposynthesi on 06/24/2004 21:44:08
I'm back in Georgia now!!!!!!!!!! Finally.
racerbizoehm on 06/25/2004 10:37:27
you forgot Resonant Engineering
aposynthesi on 06/25/2004 12:57:30
Those resonant subs look pretty nice...
I just got my 9835 today... I was wondering, should I eliminate the existing quick connects I was using for my JVC head and solder the wires?
racerbizoehm on 06/25/2004 14:21:38
could make your connections a little better
aposynthesi on 06/26/2004 02:05:06
Would it be possible to get a better amp for the same price as I got the MRV-F340 for? It's still on back order, and I ordered it on the 16th. It cost me $245.50 total at ike sound.
swez on 06/26/2004 09:43:37
Alpine MRV-340 is a 4 channel, 55 RMS x 4 into 4 ohms.
Possible alternate choices:
1. HiFonics Nemesis NX440
Multi-Channel Amp
Multi-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: Multi-Channel
RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 50W x 4
THD at 4-Ohm RMS Power: <0.03%
Bridged RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 200W x 2
Speaker Level Inputs: No
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 - 18 dB
Frequency Response: 10-30,000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: >95 dB
Fuse Rating: 50 amps
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFNX440 $210.00 (USD)
2. Phoenix Gold Octane-R 5.0:4
Multi-Channel Amp
Multi-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: Multi-Channel
RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 50W x 4 @ 14.4V
THD at 4-Ohm RMS Power: n/a
Bridged RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 150W x 2 @ 14.4V
Speaker Level Inputs: No
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 - 15 dB
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: >100 dB
Fuse Rating: 2 x 20 amps
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PHOR504 ($250.00) USD
3.Kenwood KAC-8401
Multi-Channel Amp
Multi-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: Multi-Channel
RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 60W x 4 @ 14.4V
THD at 4-Ohm RMS Power: 0.08 %
Bridged RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 180W x 2 @ 14.4V
Speaker Level Inputs: Yes
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 or 6 dB
Frequency Response: 10-30,000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: 100 dB
Fuse Rating: 40 amps
http://www.cardomain.com/item/KENKAC8401 ($250.00) USD
4. Rockford Fosgate 501X
65x4 @ 4ohm - 500 watts RMS total
This is the older style 2002-03 amp... plenty of clean power at this price too.
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=3575 ($235.00) USD
5. Autotek SS-490.4
75 Watts X 4 Channels @ 4 Ohms
100 Watts X 4 Channels @ 2 Ohms
200 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms
BridgedBipolar output
Fully adjustable 2-way X-over with full-range option
Multi-channel operation
4AWG molded terminals
0-18dB Adj. Bass Boost
On Board Thermal Regulation
3-Way Protection
Line Outputs
U.S. Design Patent D415493
Brushed aluminum top panel
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=6621 ($200.00) USD
==================================================
OK, there's a good list of above average 4 channel amps in the power range you can use. The Autotek SS-490.4 is probably your best deal and a fine amp maker too.
Good luck!
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/26/2004 15:47:08
Thanks Swez...zie. Would it be in my best interest to hold off on amps all together until I get enough money to purchase the system fully?
I would like the subwoofer and speaker amps to be the same brand, so it will look somewhat decent in the trunk... the subwoofer can be a different brand though.
Autoteks amps look nice, so do the Hifonics ones... have you heard anything about Swiss Audio amps? They look pretty cool cosmetically, but I haven't heard anything about them performance-wise. Their SMR6004 is 150 Watts x 4 @ 4OHM, and it's $229.99 at www.purecaraudio.com GRIN All of their other products seem to be high-performacne also.
aposynthesi on 06/27/2004 18:36:26
I'll put this thread on hold until I get enough funds to continue discussion. Recommendations are still welcome from anyone.
Thanks again guys.
swez on 06/27/2004 19:24:24
I have seen Swiss Audio amps on the web, the specs look like they know what they are doing and the prices I have seen, indicate they are not cheap toys either.
I have never seen or demo'd a Swiss Audio product to date. So I cannot speak from that side of experience.
The amps I listed for you earlier are all quality products. The Autotek 4 channel is a very good deal and plenty of power for the speakers you noted before. Autotek also make some very nice sub amps too. If you want to stay in same series, you'll have to look into the Super Sport line to match the SS-490.4.
In this case, it all depends on your subs. The SS series does not offer Class D amplifiers... only Class A/B with bipolar NPN transistors. This is the most common power transistor used in high end audio gear of years gone by. They sound great for Mid/high & bass applications. Just draw a lot of current
For Bass applications, consider these amps in the Autotek line:
SS-490.2 ($199.99)
175 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms
225 Watts X 2 Channels @ 2 Ohms
450 Watts X 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms Bridged
SS-590.2 ($250.00)
225 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms
275 Watts X 2 Channels @ 2 Ohms
550 Watts X 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms Bridged
===================================================
http://www.thezeb.com/Autotek.aspx?Results=1&CategoryID=4&Manufacturer=5
SS-600.4 ($199.99)
100 x 4 @ 4 ohms
100 Watts X 4 Channels @ 4 Ohms
150 Watts X 4 Channels @ 2 Ohms
300 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms Bridged
SS-800X ($289.95)
Class-D Mono Subwoofer Amplifier With Remote
400 Watts X 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms
500 Watts X 1 Channel @ 2 Ohms
750 Watts X 1 Channel @ 1 Ohms Bridged
Full MOSFET Circuitry
Fully Adjustable 2-Way X/Over w/full range option
Multi-Channel Operation
4-AWG Molded Terminals
0-12dB Adj. Bass Boost
Line Out On Board
Thermal Regulation
3-Way Protection
Patented Chrome Plated, Thermal Vent Cooling Heat Sink
They have the Super Sport Blue version which is same power, but is a bit cheaper too. These are in the 2003 Catalog.
http://www.millenniumaudio.com/supersport.htm
Zeb has both the SS-600.4 and SS-800.1 Both show in stock so your wait is minimal and free shipping too.
May I respectfully suggest you get on with the show soon. All this waffling, vacillation and procrastination are keeping you from your goals. GRIN Get off your duff man! hehe We'll all be old men before this project gets done. lol
Of coarse... if cash flow is the issue... as you can... when you can...buy what you need.
Swez
PS Swez...zie??? My, ain't we getting chummy? Am probably older than your parents... hehe glad you feel that much at ease here bud.
Just call me Swez... Swezie... Dave... David or Hey You! I answer to most of them... just don't call me late for dinner.
aposynthesi on 06/27/2004 21:11:28
Haha, yeah... Swezzie. Swayze. My father is almost 50, and I'm 19... if you're older than that, then damn - I commend you for being computer literate. That's a rarity that comes with that age.
GRIN
I'm kidding... I think.
swez on 06/27/2004 21:35:55
Am creeping up on 49 this Winter. Actually, I wish I had even more computer skills. Web searches and data grabbing is now 2nd nature to me as I use a computer for lots of research. (all kinds)
Now, I desire to "master" Spread sheets and Database applications as well as Graphics presentation (Ie: Power Point) programs as well. But these are so "boring" I can hardly get myself to dive in. I like the older Power Point versions, but this new version in Windows XP Pro is a bit more challanging to me. Guess I just have to used it more to get the most from it.
BTW, when I was in college (1975-1983) computers were just coming into vogue. In 1975, most of the rich brats has HP Scientific Calculators at ~$350.00 a pop. I used a slide rule.... get the picture?
What the heck is a slide rule huh? I resisted learning computers until the mid-80's as they were mostly DOS. (Dumb Operating Systems only)
But... once I got the basics... it really came in handy. It helped me get to a whole new level of efficiency, organization and grabbing information with a few keystrokes.
Computers are a great tool and can be a BIG TIME WASTER as well. But anyone in business for themselves or heading up a Corporate entity must be computer savvy. It's not an option! In todays' lean and mean management programs, the more you can do on your own and faster than other... the more value we bring to the round table in board meetings. (or is that bored meetings?)
Have endure many a "bored meeting" in my day, Fortunately, having my lapper handy, could review reports, search forecasts and databases or just play a few games until it was my turn to give a presentation.
Yawn.... Corporate life is not for me anymore. I like being in the field, selling, teaching, mentoring, pursuading and making deals. I would go nuts in a traditional Corporate setting... (7:00 am - 7:00 PM) plus commutes, and all the interruptions and time wasting meetings my former bosses had to endure. Give me the open playing field anyday!
I'm outta here... need some fresh air!
Later gator,
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/28/2004 00:24:25
Yeah man, if you ever need help with anything relating to computers, you know who to call. The ghost... busters. Or me.
I've been working on computers since 1992, or 93, whenever windows 3.1 came out, and I have experience working at a computer repair, business networking, and printer repair shop. Also, every school that I've attended, network administrators and teachers are after me for help... not to brag though. GRIN
swez on 06/28/2004 09:58:30
Good stuff to know and is good to be a Generalist now, but if you pursue IT careers later, plan on becoming a flex-expert or you'll have a hard time making a gp of things.
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/29/2004 14:28:25
Ok, I can't help it... what about midwoofers / small subwoofers & tweeters inside the cabin?
What brand of wires would you recommend?
and
When would I need capacitors?
swez on 06/30/2004 11:26:42
Need a Capacitor? NOPE! A more robust ALT/BAT & wires are much better.
Interior speakers: Most are very happy with amped COMPS in the front and coaxials in back. Matching speakers (F&R) are best... but not always madatory) Better brands are CDT, Polk, Diamond, Focal,Alpine, Infinity or Eclipse. Many more choices are available, depending on budget and preferences.
Midbass: If you have larger speakers (Ie: 6.5" up front and 6x9's in rear, midbass is pretty well covered. The subs will take care of the rest.
Hopefully, you can fit 6.5" Comps up front... say CDT CL-61a ($150.00/pr.) up front and decent coaxials in the rear. These speakers will go down to ~60 Hz with good power handling. The subs fill in the lows below 80 Hz., range.
Amping: As you know, aftermarket HU's do have decent power. They range from 15 - 27 watts RMS x 4, depending on the design. Better interior speakers will sound best with 50-100 watts RMS per channel. Clean, crisp audio and no clipping when set up properly. Amping will give you a few more dB of SPL to be sure. But when you really want to crank it up, an outboard amping system will give more SPL and remain very clean too. (low distortion factor)
What else?
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/30/2004 11:45:56
What you said about the speakers:
As you know, I have Alpine Type-R 6x9's in the rear (which are amazing, but I'd love to have a matching pair of comps), and Boston Acoustic 6.5 fullranges up front. If I were to get component speakers then I wouldn't know what to do with these others. I have an extra pair of Alpine Type-S 5x7's now if you're interested GRIN mwahaha.
As for SQ and SPL, I prefer SQ mostly, but I do love SPL, most-likely everyone into car audio does. I can't stand distortion.
I may sell both pairs of speakers that I used up front for components, but I wont worry about that until everything else has been done.
I've been wondering about batteries recently as well, after thinking about - SVR 80-12 Audio Battery (or other, better brands/models). This battery has a voltage of 12, would 14 be recommended?
...Wires?
Thanks swezie,
Sean
uochronos on 06/30/2004 14:33:10
maybe i can help here most auto batteries are going to list 12volt because thats what the battery is when your car is turned on however and the alternaotor starts charging the voltage goes up to about 13-14volts...
as for bateries i personaly like optima gel cell batteries they are very nice and if shopped a bit can be got for a decent price. also napa, auto zone, etc usualy make a simalar gell cell in a generic brand thats a bit cheaper but very simalar in charatieristics.
hope this helped you out.
~chronos
aposynthesi on 06/30/2004 21:18:14
Yeah that helped somewhat, I'll check into that battery.
I've decided to sell my Boston Acoustics NX67 6.5's... once I plugged them in and compared them to my Alpine Type-S 5x7's they were terrible.
swez on 06/30/2004 21:52:59
That's a better match too as you have Alpine R, 6x9's in rear deck already. I'd keep the 6x9's as is for now and run the 5x7's until you are ready to upgrade to a high end Comp system like the CDT's mentioned earlier. These Comps are the real deal. A quality set of speakers and a super crossover for them too. Can even add ambient tweeter to the front stage for better imaging if you so choose.
About Boston Acoustics... I have heard/read several reoprts from users that say their Comps are pretty good. But the 2-way coaxials use fair speakers and a good 12 dB/octave crossover.
Compared to the better brands noted before,and after looking at their web site for specs and such... was less than impressed with the details they offer there. Seems more an SPL product line than SQL. Yes... much better than a factory stock speaker, but how about the coloration of sound they produce? Stereo imaging, balanced lows/mids/highs, sound a bit middy in the 1Khz range? A better crossover and EQ would probably bring them to life well... but is it worth all that?
On batteries... the larger the CCA ratings, the better your system will handle bass spikes. A larger sub amp... 600 watts (RMS or more can really suck a lot of juice from the electrical system. But the ALT is the key player here. A stock ALT will produce ~40% more power then the car needs when all major systems are running. Adding some current hungry amps will really put a strain on your ALT/BAT and electronics in general.
Gel cells are nice and easy to find. But they are a tad pricey. You can often buy a regular lead acid car battery with same CCA ratings for a lot less. It will do the same thing as a gel cell... just not as safe as gels as they bind the electrolyte in a gel, not liquid.
Swez
aposynthesi on 07/1/2004 10:33:45
The Boston's were terrible, Alpine was totally better overall; SQ and SPL. Sure, they didn't distort when I turned them all the way up... but I could hear the passengers side Alpine over the drivers side Boston.
I love it when cheaper speakers outperform more expensive ones.
Alpine speakers should replace Boston on the "What to Buy" list in the FAQ. (By the way... shouldn't that be updated with new brands and models sometime soon?)
JVC SH9750 Head - 18Wx4 RMS
- soon to be replaced by... I dont know yet.
Front: Alpine Type-S 5x7 40w RMS / 200w peak
- soon to be replaced by Boston Acoustics NX67
Rear: Alpine Type-R 6x9 50w RMS / 120w peak
Speaker amp (not connected yet): Alpine MRV-F340 55Wx4 RMS (4 ohm)
All of my wiring is stock... recommended wiring?
I'm looking for clean sound quality still with a punch, even at low volumes and premium speakers (I boycott MTX, Kenwood, Sony, Infinity, JBL, Pioneer, Audiobahn and the like... especially Kicker. MAD)
What amplifiers, subwoofers, and head unit or anything else would you recommend to complete my system (please... a maximum of three subs)?
Alpine Type-Xs are sexy looking. THINK
Replies (42)
aposynthesi on 06/17/2004 10:11:04
Ahem... head will now be replaced by Alpine's CDA-9835.
ryan on 06/17/2004 12:43:03
Whats your budget for everything? Do you prefer 10's or 12's or doesnt matter?
aposynthesi on 06/17/2004 13:26:40
I really don't like to set budgets for things though, I'd rather save up for higher quality. If I had to, I'd say $500-700 minimum.
aposynthesi on 06/17/2004 13:30:22
... and it doesn't matter what size. I'd prefer everyones personal unlimited opinion.
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 12:33:45
No replies FROWN
swez on 06/18/2004 13:05:57
Kinda tough to press on when some of our favorite gear is on the boycott list... hehe
Very good HU that Alpine you have pending. Lots of nice features too. The Speakers mentioned are very good too. If you have not purchased the Boston's yet, consider the CDT CL-61a . They are 6.5" comps and wwell above average in power handling, crossovers and great midbass too. At $150.00 a pair off Zeb Audio... hard to beat.
That Alpine amp is a good start for interior speakers. A little more power would be nice... but not a must have though.
Tell us more about the kind of sub sound you want and power range of amp you wish to use. Then we can make some solid recommendations to fit your needs. Am sure that trunk is like a cave so no problems with a pair of 10's, 12's or even 15's if you so desire.
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 13:21:35
Fine, maybe I'll un-boycott uhhh... *insert your favorite here*.
The RMS for both pairs of my speakers does not go over 50W RMS, and the F340 is 55W RMS @ 4ohms.
For subs, I'd want say... ~500W RMS @ 4ohms.
Sorry for aggrivating you. FROWN FROWN FROWN FROWN
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 15:57:07
Here are some reference pictures of my trunk:
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_lower.jpg
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_upper.jpg
swez on 06/18/2004 17:18:11
That's a few great shots of the trunk! Looks like the amps (an amp rack) can be fitted on the upper shelf (below rear deck speakers) and your sub enclosure will fit nicely in the lower well. Clean little thing too! Looks almost showroom new. Is there a fiber pad that goes under the carpet for sound deadening too? My Buick LeSabre looks very similar, but no upper shelf and has a full 1" thick wool/fiber noise pad as well.
OK, do you have a preference on the type of bass you like best? Ie: punchy quick bass... (Rock, Techno) OR.... lots of deep bass. (Rap, Jazz or R&B) Should be able to find a pair of 10's or 12's in that power range and stay off the "boycott list too". SMILE SQ, SPL or SQL sub choices here?
Can you take a few measurments of the lower trunk housing space? That will help define the box maximum parameters and sub choices. Figure on rear firing these subs to back bumper for best bass performance. That's not a hard and fast rule. But it seems to pan out best for 90% of the installs I have worked with.
Height max:
Width max:
Depth max:
Also, your rear deck speakers may need some kind of acoustical barrier. Medium - High SPL subs can really play havoc on unshielded rear deck speakers. The bass waves are so strong, they make the rear deck cones go spastic w/o some way to block out the bass. Some use tupperware or other semi-rigid material and some packing of fiberglass, polyfill or similar sound dampening material. It will be easier to do now, than when the subs are installed.
Finally, are you planning to make or buy your sub enclosure? Ported or sealed?
Swez
PS I was not "miffed" at your boycott list... just found it amusing as this is the first time in 4 years of doing this board, that someone had a "boycott" list. Care to share your views on why?
aposynthesi on 06/18/2004 19:05:32
You should see my trunk when it's full of my drumset! It's pretty awesome that the whole thing fits in there.
Here are measurements:
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_lower_mm.jpg
Heres a rad area on the side:
http://members.cox.net/aposynthesi/trunk_side.jpg
For my bass, I prefer it to be punchy, but also have enough deep bass for parts of songs that aren't as fast. I will be making a ported sub enclosure.
My deck will be finished before I even start the trunk, so the subs shouldn't interfere with the 6x9's.
Haha, I made the boycott list because every time that I've gone into Best Buy, or Circuit City, speakers by those companies have been playing extremely loud by asshats who didn't know what they were doing, so that kind of ruined it for me. Plus I'm one of those people who get happy when people say "I've never heard of them."
Sean
swez on 06/19/2004 11:38:10
Sean,
Ahhhh, now I get the picture on boycott stuff and I really do appreciate your comment on: [Plus I'm one of those people who get happy when people say "I've never heard of them."] Know what ya mean.... Never heard of that brand huh? Well, listen to this... demo your setup... ooooo's, ahhhhhh's, ummmmmm's (a 4th of July experience) says the listener as he is amazed by the almost concert level sound in your ride. hehe
OK, as for size of subs, looks like you have room for a pair of 12's here and can go ported if you wish. Personally, sealed will net best punch, (well controlled) deep bass and in a 50% smaller enclosure. Yes, you will give up a few dB of bass SPL... but unless you are planning to compete in SPL COMPS, not an issue.
As for popular subs, many like Alpine, Eclipse, Rockford and Infinity. Tight sound, not overly expensive and easy to find in several voice coil arrangments.
If you want something out of the ordinary... consider Elemental Designs, Adire Brahma, Diamond, Phoenix Gold or JL.
==================================================
Detailed specs and links:
Diamond Audio: CM3-12D2 or 12D4
2 or 4 ohm DVC's available in this series
http://www.diamondaudio.com/MobileAudio/index.cfm?page=Subwoofers (general product page)
http://www.diamondaudio.com//Files/products/CM3%5Fspec%5Frev1%2Epdf (sub specs, enclosure recommendations in .pdf file)
A Google web search will give you an idea on prices, reviews and where to buy these subs.
==================================================
Example: Short form shopping list....
Diamond Audio CM3-12D4 ****
12 Inch, 4+4 DVC, 500 Watts RMS
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12441 $109.00/ea.
===================================================
Phoenix Gold Ti12D ****
12 Inch 4 Ohm Dual Voice Coil Subwoofer
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13026 $179.00/ea.
===================================================
Phoenix Gold Ti12 ***
12 Inch 4 Ohm Subwoofer (SVC 4 ohms)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13025 $145.00/ea.
===================================================
Earthquake DBX12D *** (SPL sub mostly)
12" Subwoofer 4 ohm DVC, 400 watts RMS
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12612 $139.00/ea.
===================================================
JL Audio 12W6v2 ****
12" Subwoofer, 4+4 DVC 400 Watts RMS
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12514 $339.00/ea. (a bit pricey huh?)
===================================================
Adire Brahma 12 ****
2+2 DVC only 1600 watts RMS
http://www.adireaudio.com/StockProducts/raw_drivers.htm#Brahma
$379.00/ea. (Not cheap here either)
==================================================
Elemental Designs ****.5
130.v2, 2+2 or 4+4 DVC's 900 watts RMS
http://www.edesignaudio.com/ov2.htm $165.00/ea. (Best value Buy)
This brand is coming on strong as a premium SQL driver
===================================================
OK, there's a pretty good listing of very good subs in the power range mentioned. Most are DVC models (2+2 or 4+4 DVC's). As such, a Class "D" or "T" amp will do the job.
When using a pair 2+2 or a pair of 4 ohm subs, can get the job done with a 2 ohm stable sub amp. If you opt for a pair 4+4 DVC's, need an amp that will handle 1 ohm loads.
If you elect to go ported, make sure you get an amp that has subsonic filtering built in or add a set of F-Mods ($26.00/pr.) to block subsonics to ported subs.
Finally, suggested power range for the sub amp should be in the 1000 -1500 watt category. Pick a sub that appeals to you most, then we can define the enclosure specs and the best amp choice to drive them.
Comments?
Swez
PS Do you have a sub amp choice in mind yet?
aposynthesi on 06/19/2004 14:16:40
Wouldn't the 4+4's have a better SQ than the 2+2's, and why would I need a 1 ohm stable amp for the 4's, and not the 2's?
Maybe I've just got everything mixed up, I thought the higher number ohms were better.
I will go sealed, as you said sealed would put out a tighter punch with deep bass... like I wanted.
Shouldn't I be getting two amp's along with the two subs, instead of linking them?
Brahmas and JL's are too expensive for a single sub, and I like the Diamond Audio and Elemental Designs price-performance deal.
What about the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF or the MB Quart PWE 302/304? I just saw that Alpine subs are only 300W RMS, 87 sensitivity, so those are a no.
I don't know... stuff (in better terms)... about amplifiers. So I can't answer you last question. Would my HU be able to control other companies amps with Bass Engine Pro?
Feel free to slap me if you must.
Thanks x 100,05406,460617,899999999999999
Sean
uochronos on 06/19/2004 15:22:18
ohmage just changes what amp you can use with the subs higher or lower ohms does not give better quality sound... 2+2 ohm dual voice coils can wire ech sub to a 4 ohm load or a 1 ohm load or wire 2 of these subs into a 2 ohm or 8ohm load.... where as a 4+4 ohm sub can be wired to get 8 ohm or 2 ohm alone or with 2 subs be wired to get 4 ohm or 1 ohm load... i hope that helps you a bit understanding that.
no as far as getting 2 amps or even a 2 channel amp too run 2 subs this well work but well cost alot more be alot bulkier and drain alot more power then a single 1 channel amp well. you wont gain sound quality or power by using 2 amps so its only logical to go with a 1 channel class D or class T amplifier.
as for brahmas and jl's being too expensive for a single sub alot of times this is because 1 sub can be as loud as 2... 1 JL w7 well rip your car apart in the right enclosure and a single w6 can do so as well. also brahams are very potent subs when just using one.
also if your looking at elemental designs they have there A15AE on sale for only 270$ an amazing sub for the price. its last years model so they are clearing them all out.
aposynthesi on 06/20/2004 15:33:45
Hmm... it says that Swez posted last, but uochronos did.
Uochronos: I get what you're talking about, two 4 ohm speakers ran parallel make 2 ohms, or in a series would make 8 ohms - two 2 ohm speakers ran parallel make 1 ohm, and in series make 4 ohms. Right?
So basically, I'd want to get 4 ohm subs if I wanted to run at 2 ohms parallel, or 2 ohms if I wanted to run them at 4 ohms in a series.
Hmm...
swez on 06/20/2004 17:24:39
Your general target is 1 or 2 ohms load to the amp you choose. Here's a quick summary of what can be done: BTW, you are on the right track so far.
1. A Pair of 2+2 DVC's
a. Wire sub A coils in Series for a 4 ohm load
b. Now do the same with sub B (4 ohms again)
c. Now wire both (now 4 ohm subs) in parallel to amp for a net 2 ohm load.
This is a perfect match for Most Class D sub amps.
2. Using a pair of 4+4 DVC's now
a. Wire sub A coils in parallel for a 2 ohm load
b. Do the same for sub B (2 ohms here as well)
c. Now, wiring both subs in parallel will give you a 1 ohm load
NOTE: Current draw management is key to a potent system that won't kill your electrical system. That's why we recommend Class D or T amps for subs. These are ~90% efficient. (meaning... they draw 1000 watts from electricals, but return 90% of that to amplifier to power subs)
Now, there are High Current amps (HC class) out there... (Class A/B types) that are often 2 channel and can be bridged to run below 1 ohm. These puppies are real current hogs and deliver ~60% efficiency to subs. Avoid this step unless you plan to go all out in SPL COMPS. Major electrical upgrades are needed when taking this route.
Finally, use a Class D or T Mono amp for 2 subs. The 2+2 DVC is the best overall choice as there are many fine MONO amps that can deliver 1000 - 1200 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. Only a few can do 1 ohm loads well. The $$$ you have left after the subs are purchased, will determine the amp you choose. Realistically, 1000 watts RMS is plenty for your present application. Even at that, figure the current draw on your electricals will be pretty close to 100 amperes of current at full output.
Can your electrical system support that size amp and still maintain adequate watts to run your car? Most cars will run well on 40-50 amperes of current. Keep that in mind as we proceed.
Swez
PS A smaller amp (500 - 600 RMS) and a single strong sub (4+4 DVC) can be pretty darn loud. This system will draw about 50 amperes of current and will only be 3-6 dB less bass at half the price. Les space needed as well. Chew on that a while before you make your sub choice.
PSS Don't know much about Boston subs or the MBQ sub mentioned. Am sure they are high quality SQL subs too. Got a link or 2 for them... I can look em up for you and comment.
aposynthesi on 06/20/2004 19:04:21
Boston ProSeries 12.5LF:
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ca_product.asp?ProductID=93&CategoryID=17
MB Quart PWE 302/304:
http://www.mbquart.com/2003/en_US/products/prod_detail.asp?isArchive=&cat=auto&series=premium%20series&strt=1&model=PWE+302%2F304
This amplifier seems pretty rad (Swiss Audio):
http://purecaraudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=483
So does this one (Hifonics):
http://purecaraudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2187
Something like those amps would do well I suppose...
I'll keep that idea about one sub in my mind... would I be able to buy an amp that does say... 600W RMS at 2 ohms and use a 2 ohm sub? I may just do that and then do some midwoofers inside the car for better sound shaping.
Thanks Swez
- Sean
swez on 06/20/2004 23:35:08
Sean,
The Boston 12.5LF Series seems more like like a high SPL sub than SQ or SQL type sub. If you read the .pdf full detail spec sheet, it's more hype than facts. More of a (hype) sales pitch than an accurate
(technical) statement of what this woofer series is designed for. As a professional salesman and a Techie to boot, this kind of sales pitch turns me in a direction that takes me 180 degrees away from this kind of marketing hype. Not impressed with this page or pitch. For $300.00 a pop... there are better ways/products to spend your hard earned money.
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/newproduct/ProSubs.pdf
===================================================
The MB Quart PWE 302/304
This is an 2003 version sub. The web link given is like a mouse in a maze. But, I did find the specs off this .pdf:
http://www.mbquart.com/scripts/mbtech.cfg/php.exe/enduser/fattach_get.php?p_sid=tCyC5qeh&p_tbl=10&p_id=45&p_created=1056340099
There are no references to enclosure recommendations, but if we used the Theil/Small parameters, could come up with an enclosure design for them. My German, French and Spanish are not up to par either. hehe
Looking through the web pages, I found a site that carries this series. At $245.00/ea., they ought to be a solid piece of gear. Now.. if I can only find some useful specs on this sub.... Hummm, another set of rabbit trails on this product search as well. Nothing here to really tell much about this sub line either.
1. http://www.infinitecaraudio.com/cgi-bin/icastore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=PWE302
2. http://www.mbquart.com/2003/en_US/products/prod_detail.asp?isArchive=&cat=auto&series=premium%20series&strt=1&model=PWE+302%2F304
a. 600 watts input power (RMS or peak???)
b. 0.95 cf sealed
c. 2/2 or 4/4 DVC
d. Frequency range: 16-300 Hz.
e. Sensitivity: 2,8dB (have no clue what that means)
My best suggestion, contact a dealer that sells MBQ's and see if they have some useful product details on this sub.
1. Power handling in continous watts (RMS)
2. Enclosure recommendations for SQL bass applications
3. Voice coil configurations available (2+2), (4+4) (6+6) or other
Is there a specific reason why you chose either of these subs over the earlier listing given? Both of these subs mentioned are not very well noted on web sites I normally used to get much of the technical details from. That may indicate they do not endorse or support internet sales.. only high priced audio salons can sell them. (and at a hefty price tags too)
===================================================
Swiss Audio SDX1500 Mono Amplifier
CLASS D MONO BLOCK AMPLIFIER
1X1500 WATTS@ 1 OHM MONO
1X1000 WATTS@ 2 OHM MONO
1X500 WATTS@ 4 OHM MONO
VARIABLE BASS BOOST: 0-12db
THD: 0.05%
S/N: 100dB
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 5HZ-250HZ
VARIABLE 24dB LOW PASS FILTER: 50HZ-150HZ
TRIPLE GAUGE VU METER
BUILT-IN DIGITAL VARIABLE SUBSONIC, PHASE, LOW -PASS AND BASS BOOST CONTROLS
VARIABLE PHASE CONTROL: 0-180
4 WAY CIRCUIT PROTECTION: THERMAL, SHORT CIRCUIT, OVERLOAD AND DC OFFSET
DIMENSIONS: 206MM(W) X 60MM(H) X 430MM(L)
Comments:
Interesting and I have looked at these products before. Not sure if power ratings are RMS or peak. The price is pretty steep as well, but good features and plenty of output power as well. How much current does it draw? If we know the current draw to be over 120 amperes at full power, am sure this is a pretty solid amp.
Getting late and I have to stop for now... will come back with a few other selections ASAP.
Swez
cplkittle on 06/20/2004 23:43:49
looking at the first posts.. I have the CDA 9835.. love it
I would look into eclipse and diamond for subs and amps, both very powerful and clean.
Alpine type X subs are awesome.. have heard them and compared them to both diamond and eclipse. the diamonds are a little cleaner, but not much. The only flaw with the type X subs are that they have a little huff sound to them. I origionally thought this was the ported box, but it is audible in a sealed enclosure as well, making me believe that it is what's called motor noise. I highly recommend finding someone that carries these brands and listening to them before purchasing them. Especially if buying from ebay.
cplkittle on 06/20/2004 23:48:33
one other note.. the CDA9835 has some of the coolest features if you use an alpine amp as well. you can controll the amp almost entirely (set crossover points, gain, phase, bass boost, view current draw in amps, volts, and view amplifier internal temperature - all from the HU (CDA9835 and 9833)
Do some serious research of the differences in the two models mentioned above, there are not that many differences, except the price ($100) The multicolor display on the 9835 is only the button background lighting. the screen is black/green constantly
aposynthesi on 06/21/2004 00:46:25
cplkittle: I've already ordered the 9835, it should arrive tomorrow. Also, I've decided against Alpine Type-X's because of the exact reason you said. They're still pretty looking though.
aposynthesi on 06/21/2004 06:40:27
Going to Lakeland, FL until thursday... I may not be able to respond until then, so ta.
aposynthesi on 06/23/2004 11:30:14
I'm alive.
aposynthesi on 06/24/2004 21:44:08
I'm back in Georgia now!!!!!!!!!! Finally.
racerbizoehm on 06/25/2004 10:37:27
you forgot Resonant Engineering
aposynthesi on 06/25/2004 12:57:30
Those resonant subs look pretty nice...
I just got my 9835 today... I was wondering, should I eliminate the existing quick connects I was using for my JVC head and solder the wires?
racerbizoehm on 06/25/2004 14:21:38
could make your connections a little better
aposynthesi on 06/26/2004 02:05:06
Would it be possible to get a better amp for the same price as I got the MRV-F340 for? It's still on back order, and I ordered it on the 16th. It cost me $245.50 total at ike sound.
swez on 06/26/2004 09:43:37
Alpine MRV-340 is a 4 channel, 55 RMS x 4 into 4 ohms.
Possible alternate choices:
1. HiFonics Nemesis NX440
Multi-Channel Amp
Multi-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: Multi-Channel
RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 50W x 4
THD at 4-Ohm RMS Power: <0.03%
Bridged RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 200W x 2
Speaker Level Inputs: No
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 - 18 dB
Frequency Response: 10-30,000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: >95 dB
Fuse Rating: 50 amps
http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFNX440 $210.00 (USD)
2. Phoenix Gold Octane-R 5.0:4
Multi-Channel Amp
Multi-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: Multi-Channel
RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 50W x 4 @ 14.4V
THD at 4-Ohm RMS Power: n/a
Bridged RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 150W x 2 @ 14.4V
Speaker Level Inputs: No
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 - 15 dB
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: >100 dB
Fuse Rating: 2 x 20 amps
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PHOR504 ($250.00) USD
3.Kenwood KAC-8401
Multi-Channel Amp
Multi-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: Multi-Channel
RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 60W x 4 @ 14.4V
THD at 4-Ohm RMS Power: 0.08 %
Bridged RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 180W x 2 @ 14.4V
Speaker Level Inputs: Yes
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 or 6 dB
Frequency Response: 10-30,000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: 100 dB
Fuse Rating: 40 amps
http://www.cardomain.com/item/KENKAC8401 ($250.00) USD
4. Rockford Fosgate 501X
65x4 @ 4ohm - 500 watts RMS total
This is the older style 2002-03 amp... plenty of clean power at this price too.
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=3575 ($235.00) USD
5. Autotek SS-490.4
75 Watts X 4 Channels @ 4 Ohms
100 Watts X 4 Channels @ 2 Ohms
200 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms
BridgedBipolar output
Fully adjustable 2-way X-over with full-range option
Multi-channel operation
4AWG molded terminals
0-18dB Adj. Bass Boost
On Board Thermal Regulation
3-Way Protection
Line Outputs
U.S. Design Patent D415493
Brushed aluminum top panel
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=6621 ($200.00) USD
==================================================
OK, there's a good list of above average 4 channel amps in the power range you can use. The Autotek SS-490.4 is probably your best deal and a fine amp maker too.
Good luck!
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/26/2004 15:47:08
Thanks Swez...zie. Would it be in my best interest to hold off on amps all together until I get enough money to purchase the system fully?
I would like the subwoofer and speaker amps to be the same brand, so it will look somewhat decent in the trunk... the subwoofer can be a different brand though.
Autoteks amps look nice, so do the Hifonics ones... have you heard anything about Swiss Audio amps? They look pretty cool cosmetically, but I haven't heard anything about them performance-wise. Their SMR6004 is 150 Watts x 4 @ 4OHM, and it's $229.99 at www.purecaraudio.com GRIN All of their other products seem to be high-performacne also.
aposynthesi on 06/27/2004 18:36:26
I'll put this thread on hold until I get enough funds to continue discussion. Recommendations are still welcome from anyone.
Thanks again guys.
swez on 06/27/2004 19:24:24
I have seen Swiss Audio amps on the web, the specs look like they know what they are doing and the prices I have seen, indicate they are not cheap toys either.
I have never seen or demo'd a Swiss Audio product to date. So I cannot speak from that side of experience.
The amps I listed for you earlier are all quality products. The Autotek 4 channel is a very good deal and plenty of power for the speakers you noted before. Autotek also make some very nice sub amps too. If you want to stay in same series, you'll have to look into the Super Sport line to match the SS-490.4.
In this case, it all depends on your subs. The SS series does not offer Class D amplifiers... only Class A/B with bipolar NPN transistors. This is the most common power transistor used in high end audio gear of years gone by. They sound great for Mid/high & bass applications. Just draw a lot of current
For Bass applications, consider these amps in the Autotek line:
SS-490.2 ($199.99)
175 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms
225 Watts X 2 Channels @ 2 Ohms
450 Watts X 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms Bridged
SS-590.2 ($250.00)
225 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms
275 Watts X 2 Channels @ 2 Ohms
550 Watts X 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms Bridged
===================================================
http://www.thezeb.com/Autotek.aspx?Results=1&CategoryID=4&Manufacturer=5
SS-600.4 ($199.99)
100 x 4 @ 4 ohms
100 Watts X 4 Channels @ 4 Ohms
150 Watts X 4 Channels @ 2 Ohms
300 Watts X 2 Channels @ 4 Ohms Bridged
SS-800X ($289.95)
Class-D Mono Subwoofer Amplifier With Remote
400 Watts X 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms
500 Watts X 1 Channel @ 2 Ohms
750 Watts X 1 Channel @ 1 Ohms Bridged
Full MOSFET Circuitry
Fully Adjustable 2-Way X/Over w/full range option
Multi-Channel Operation
4-AWG Molded Terminals
0-12dB Adj. Bass Boost
Line Out On Board
Thermal Regulation
3-Way Protection
Patented Chrome Plated, Thermal Vent Cooling Heat Sink
They have the Super Sport Blue version which is same power, but is a bit cheaper too. These are in the 2003 Catalog.
http://www.millenniumaudio.com/supersport.htm
Zeb has both the SS-600.4 and SS-800.1 Both show in stock so your wait is minimal and free shipping too.
May I respectfully suggest you get on with the show soon. All this waffling, vacillation and procrastination are keeping you from your goals. GRIN Get off your duff man! hehe We'll all be old men before this project gets done. lol
Of coarse... if cash flow is the issue... as you can... when you can...buy what you need.
Swez
PS Swez...zie??? My, ain't we getting chummy? Am probably older than your parents... hehe glad you feel that much at ease here bud.
Just call me Swez... Swezie... Dave... David or Hey You! I answer to most of them... just don't call me late for dinner.
aposynthesi on 06/27/2004 21:11:28
Haha, yeah... Swezzie. Swayze. My father is almost 50, and I'm 19... if you're older than that, then damn - I commend you for being computer literate. That's a rarity that comes with that age.
GRIN
I'm kidding... I think.
swez on 06/27/2004 21:35:55
Am creeping up on 49 this Winter. Actually, I wish I had even more computer skills. Web searches and data grabbing is now 2nd nature to me as I use a computer for lots of research. (all kinds)
Now, I desire to "master" Spread sheets and Database applications as well as Graphics presentation (Ie: Power Point) programs as well. But these are so "boring" I can hardly get myself to dive in. I like the older Power Point versions, but this new version in Windows XP Pro is a bit more challanging to me. Guess I just have to used it more to get the most from it.
BTW, when I was in college (1975-1983) computers were just coming into vogue. In 1975, most of the rich brats has HP Scientific Calculators at ~$350.00 a pop. I used a slide rule.... get the picture?
What the heck is a slide rule huh? I resisted learning computers until the mid-80's as they were mostly DOS. (Dumb Operating Systems only)
But... once I got the basics... it really came in handy. It helped me get to a whole new level of efficiency, organization and grabbing information with a few keystrokes.
Computers are a great tool and can be a BIG TIME WASTER as well. But anyone in business for themselves or heading up a Corporate entity must be computer savvy. It's not an option! In todays' lean and mean management programs, the more you can do on your own and faster than other... the more value we bring to the round table in board meetings. (or is that bored meetings?)
Have endure many a "bored meeting" in my day, Fortunately, having my lapper handy, could review reports, search forecasts and databases or just play a few games until it was my turn to give a presentation.
Yawn.... Corporate life is not for me anymore. I like being in the field, selling, teaching, mentoring, pursuading and making deals. I would go nuts in a traditional Corporate setting... (7:00 am - 7:00 PM) plus commutes, and all the interruptions and time wasting meetings my former bosses had to endure. Give me the open playing field anyday!
I'm outta here... need some fresh air!
Later gator,
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/28/2004 00:24:25
Yeah man, if you ever need help with anything relating to computers, you know who to call. The ghost... busters. Or me.
I've been working on computers since 1992, or 93, whenever windows 3.1 came out, and I have experience working at a computer repair, business networking, and printer repair shop. Also, every school that I've attended, network administrators and teachers are after me for help... not to brag though. GRIN
swez on 06/28/2004 09:58:30
Good stuff to know and is good to be a Generalist now, but if you pursue IT careers later, plan on becoming a flex-expert or you'll have a hard time making a gp of things.
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/29/2004 14:28:25
Ok, I can't help it... what about midwoofers / small subwoofers & tweeters inside the cabin?
What brand of wires would you recommend?
and
When would I need capacitors?
swez on 06/30/2004 11:26:42
Need a Capacitor? NOPE! A more robust ALT/BAT & wires are much better.
Interior speakers: Most are very happy with amped COMPS in the front and coaxials in back. Matching speakers (F&R) are best... but not always madatory) Better brands are CDT, Polk, Diamond, Focal,Alpine, Infinity or Eclipse. Many more choices are available, depending on budget and preferences.
Midbass: If you have larger speakers (Ie: 6.5" up front and 6x9's in rear, midbass is pretty well covered. The subs will take care of the rest.
Hopefully, you can fit 6.5" Comps up front... say CDT CL-61a ($150.00/pr.) up front and decent coaxials in the rear. These speakers will go down to ~60 Hz with good power handling. The subs fill in the lows below 80 Hz., range.
Amping: As you know, aftermarket HU's do have decent power. They range from 15 - 27 watts RMS x 4, depending on the design. Better interior speakers will sound best with 50-100 watts RMS per channel. Clean, crisp audio and no clipping when set up properly. Amping will give you a few more dB of SPL to be sure. But when you really want to crank it up, an outboard amping system will give more SPL and remain very clean too. (low distortion factor)
What else?
Swez
aposynthesi on 06/30/2004 11:45:56
What you said about the speakers:
As you know, I have Alpine Type-R 6x9's in the rear (which are amazing, but I'd love to have a matching pair of comps), and Boston Acoustic 6.5 fullranges up front. If I were to get component speakers then I wouldn't know what to do with these others. I have an extra pair of Alpine Type-S 5x7's now if you're interested GRIN mwahaha.
As for SQ and SPL, I prefer SQ mostly, but I do love SPL, most-likely everyone into car audio does. I can't stand distortion.
I may sell both pairs of speakers that I used up front for components, but I wont worry about that until everything else has been done.
I've been wondering about batteries recently as well, after thinking about - SVR 80-12 Audio Battery (or other, better brands/models). This battery has a voltage of 12, would 14 be recommended?
...Wires?
Thanks swezie,
Sean
uochronos on 06/30/2004 14:33:10
maybe i can help here most auto batteries are going to list 12volt because thats what the battery is when your car is turned on however and the alternaotor starts charging the voltage goes up to about 13-14volts...
as for bateries i personaly like optima gel cell batteries they are very nice and if shopped a bit can be got for a decent price. also napa, auto zone, etc usualy make a simalar gell cell in a generic brand thats a bit cheaper but very simalar in charatieristics.
hope this helped you out.
~chronos
aposynthesi on 06/30/2004 21:18:14
Yeah that helped somewhat, I'll check into that battery.
I've decided to sell my Boston Acoustics NX67 6.5's... once I plugged them in and compared them to my Alpine Type-S 5x7's they were terrible.
swez on 06/30/2004 21:52:59
That's a better match too as you have Alpine R, 6x9's in rear deck already. I'd keep the 6x9's as is for now and run the 5x7's until you are ready to upgrade to a high end Comp system like the CDT's mentioned earlier. These Comps are the real deal. A quality set of speakers and a super crossover for them too. Can even add ambient tweeter to the front stage for better imaging if you so choose.
About Boston Acoustics... I have heard/read several reoprts from users that say their Comps are pretty good. But the 2-way coaxials use fair speakers and a good 12 dB/octave crossover.
Compared to the better brands noted before,and after looking at their web site for specs and such... was less than impressed with the details they offer there. Seems more an SPL product line than SQL. Yes... much better than a factory stock speaker, but how about the coloration of sound they produce? Stereo imaging, balanced lows/mids/highs, sound a bit middy in the 1Khz range? A better crossover and EQ would probably bring them to life well... but is it worth all that?
On batteries... the larger the CCA ratings, the better your system will handle bass spikes. A larger sub amp... 600 watts (RMS or more can really suck a lot of juice from the electrical system. But the ALT is the key player here. A stock ALT will produce ~40% more power then the car needs when all major systems are running. Adding some current hungry amps will really put a strain on your ALT/BAT and electronics in general.
Gel cells are nice and easy to find. But they are a tad pricey. You can often buy a regular lead acid car battery with same CCA ratings for a lot less. It will do the same thing as a gel cell... just not as safe as gels as they bind the electrolyte in a gel, not liquid.
Swez
aposynthesi on 07/1/2004 10:33:45
The Boston's were terrible, Alpine was totally better overall; SQ and SPL. Sure, they didn't distort when I turned them all the way up... but I could hear the passengers side Alpine over the drivers side Boston.
I love it when cheaper speakers outperform more expensive ones.
Alpine speakers should replace Boston on the "What to Buy" list in the FAQ. (By the way... shouldn't that be updated with new brands and models sometime soon?)
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