Hello My name is Eric I live in Montreal and i will need your advise and Help.
Let me tell you what i have so far a Panasonic CQ-DF583U cd wma mp3 player. no bass control on this one.
I have also (ok I know they are not the best but for the Price they sound good) Koss MSP630 6-1/2 speakers 4x 50w rms 180w peak.
I also just purchaseed a Subwoofer a JL Audio 10W04 now it say in a panflet that is is 250w peak and for optimum ouput level i should run it at 125w rms
ok now the fun part I need to buy an Amplifier.
So a friend of a friend has this Power Acoustik Amp 1000w peak ok. I do not know the rms Wattage. It supose to have a 4 channel brigeable thingy. where i can put 4 speakers and 2 subs on top of that. This is what he told me. Apearantly you can do all kinids with it. and it had these little needle gauges on them. I just Kow it is a Power Acoustik model name ???.
and it is a few years old. Now i don't know how old that is. His asking price is 250$ Canadian. Now to me it might be a bit steep speacially used. But I read good Reviews about Power Acoustiks. Amp.
Now should I buy it or not Or any of you have any suggestion for me.
Also I want to rewire all my speakers with a good wire. is 14 gauge to much. and 10 gauge for the sub??
Please any guru out there help me out.
p.s. How do I know that i am at my optimum output range when adjusting the amp.??
Replies (25)
0u1lowwd2 on 05/27/2004 00:10:22
I have a Jetta III 99 the old shape. big trunk space do not want to use it all. I want to know what I can take appart and not in the car to easy my work load
ttocs on 05/27/2004 08:43:26
it would be helpfull if you had the model number. We can get a better idea then.
swez on 05/27/2004 09:38:38
That is a bit high for a used 4 channel Power Acoustic amp. It says 1000 watts output...but that is peak. Translated to RMS, this is more like 60 watts RMS per channel x 4 or 120 watts RMS x 2 when bridged. Not anything special here in all.
Not sure what the CND/USD currency conversion rate is now, but assuming $1.00 CND = $0.67 USD or ($1.00 USD = $1.47 CND) Yep, that's confirmed! A (-33 cents) (USD) differential here.
OK, let's define your goals and budget here. That will dictate the path you will want to consider as you shop and compare.
OPTIONS:
1. If you have 4 interior Koss speakers installed now and like them... stick with it for the time being. A decent 4 channel amp is best here as you can drive each channel to 50-75 watts RMS and still be fine. This option will give you complete control over front to rear staging volume for best balance.
2. If you wish to add a modest sub to the mix (I would & did) then a sub amp to power your sub gives best flexibilty, but 2 amps to buy and install. A modest sub amp of say 100 - 150 watts (RMS) is very inexpensive. About a buck a watt CND. (brand/features dependent)
3. Another option is to use a 5 channel amp. Four channels for interior and 1 sub channel... all in one casing. Easy deal here, just a tad more expensive.
4. That HU mentioned (Panasonic CQ-DF583U) has 25 x 4 RMS watts output to each speaker. A 50 watt per channel amp will only increase your SPL by about +3dB/channel. Not a big difference to what your ears can detect... just a bit less distortion at high listening levels. You can get more clean SPL to your interior speakers by using less Bass boost and let the sub handle that department. This is your cheapest option and will still net better results than you have now.
OK, have a few questions and comments on these options? Fire away! Oh... changing your interior speaker wiring is not needed here. Most stock speakers use #16 gage wire. At this power level, there is no real benefit going to all that extra work. Save your money and time.
Comments,
Swez
PS Got a budget in mind here and what are you hoping to achieve when this install is completed?
By just adding a modest sub amp to power your JL woofer will make a notable difference here as your HU and interior speakers will not have to reproduce heavy bass.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/27/2004 23:27:47
Hello guys Sorry if i reply late it is because i can only do this late and get the answer the next day. Thank for your Help though. So Let me try to understand better There is a 5 channel amp out there? cool got to check it out. Basically I have a Low budget on this thing. But I don't think just because It is low budget that it cannot sound good. But I would not mind Investigating in a little more on a good amp., incase later on i get better speakers. I know that the JL Audio is not a cheap brand I may have taken only a 10" Sub but i felt that it was good for me because I listen to everything in music. I know that 12" is the way to go speacially if you listen to Hip Hop. Anyhow it was a demo it was cheap and I have it now.
I am worried about my impedence though If I get a 4 channel Brigeable Amp. I got 5 speakers at 4 ohms each the output let say is 4 ohms per channel there is 4 ohms less (if it works that way) Will the amp. divid the ohms eaqually?? how does it work.
Can i risk damaging my stero or my amp for that matter.
As for the power acoustik model number yet i should have it next week.
I was wondering about my box for the Sub should follow the rules from JL Audio ? or is it just guid lines. To me they make sence.
When i go to the stores though it seams that the boxes are to small and not done right. according to JL Audio specs. This is one reason why I want to built it myself.
Question for SWEZ
You mentioned something about my HU putting out 25rms and that A 50 watt per channel amp will only increase your SPL by about +3dB/channel do you mean by this that I don't connect them to an Amp.? or Just an Amp that Doesn't Feed 50w rms to my speakers. Also you said to lower my Bass and let the Sub handle that departement. The only way i see this is to take my rear pre amp. outputs and connect them to an amp. now if this is what I have to do how will this affect the impedence of my rear speakers and how will it affect me HU. Can I risk damaging it.
Anyhow before I wright a bible let me stop here. please help me understande this impedence a little better.
thank you guys
uochronos on 05/27/2004 23:53:07
even with a modest budget it can sound good just takes a bit longer to find good deals and get it all hooked up right, just have to be patient.
ok as far as ohms go that is not the out put. ohms are the resistance that channel need to run most 4 channel amps can handle a 2ohm or more load but cant handle less then 2 ohms. if you have 5 speakers i'm assuming you mean 4 full range(door speakers) and a sub. if you want to amp them all you would need a 4 channel for the 4 door speakers and then a amp for the sub. or you would need a 5 channel amp to run all speakers off one amp. you cant run sub and 4 door speakers off of a single 4 channel amp.
as for the box you can have most car audio shops build a box for your specific speaker but most the ones they have just laying around are just basic generic boxes usualy like .5 cubic feet, 1 cubic feet, etc. those are good if your speaker calls for that size box other wise you well need to have them build you a custom one or build it yourself. if you choose to build it your self then we can walk you threw how to do it.
as for do you need to follow jls guidline you can fudge on them a bit to get the box to fit the car but if the box is overly large your speaker well over extend itself and end up damageing itself. if the box is overly small you well not get the full potential out of it.
as for what swez said about your HU puting out 25x4 rms and an 50watt x 4 amp would only add +3db. what he meant was that paying 200$ or more to add +3db especialy running as small a sub as you are isnt really nessicary. it wont hurt but it isnt really needed. in general you want your mids and highs to have around 1/8 ratio to your bass. menaing if you have 800watts to a sub you want around 100watts to your mids and highs. so 25watts to your mids and highs off your head unit and 125-150watts to your sub i think would even out well.
i tried to write this as carefully as i could but if you get confused on it just ask and we shall respond there are nop stupid questions when your starting out.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/28/2004 00:22:04
Hello uochronos
Tell me what do they mean by Bridged Because The Amp I am supose to get is a 4 channel bridged. And he told me that it has an output plug for the sub on it plus the 4 channel connections.
He told me that the guy i am supose to buy it from had 4 speaker plus 2 subs on it. Now I am confused. If he did that then it must be ok for my car. If you want to know I have a Jetta III 99 Big Trunk lots of space. Can you please explain to me.
This amp is by a company called Power acoustiks and i read on the net that it was a good amp. My friend told me that his freind paid 1000$ for it at the time he wants to sell it 250$ i am thinking 200$.
uochronos on 05/28/2004 02:32:43
1000$ seems a bit steep i doubt he payed that but i dont know alot about power acustik so maybe. i have a very nice 2 channel phoenix gold that i bought at a store for only 400$ and its a 500watt amp.
if he had 4 speakers and 2 subs i would assume it is a 5 channel amp then, hmm i just browsed a couple web sites that sell power acoustik and the most expensive amp i could find was 2300watts to 1 channel and it was around 500$ brand new. and they had several 4 channel amps i saw for under 200$ brand new. seems to me unless this amp is something very special he is over charging a bit for a used amp... once we get the model number we can say for sure.
bridged is as follows basicaly. say i have a 2 channel amp that puts out 125watts per channel at 4 ohms or 250watts per channel at 2 ohms. if i where to bridge this amp i would get one single channel that puts out 500watts at 4 ohms. now to bridge means to basicaly connect the 2 channels of the amp into one channel. usualy this is down by taking the positive of one channel and the negitive from the other channel. although this can vary between brands. i hope that clears up bridging a bit for you.
i suggest you goto www.thezeb.com and look at power acoustic amps there to get an idea of how much these amps usualy cost new. the zeb has very good prices in general so those are going to be reasonably low prices.
also dont nessicarily trust what other people have done to amps and subs in there cars i have friends that have systems that are hooked up insanly wrong but still work although eventualy either and amp or speaker goes out, usualy due to a very easily corrected problems.
any more questions please feel free to ask
~chronos
swez on 05/28/2004 09:20:25
After reading your comments and questions, it sounds like the HU you have now, only has rear channel RCA outputs. With that option in mind.. I would suggest running the interior speakers off the HU only for now. Use the RCA out on the HU, to power a modest sub amp.
As for the 4 channel amp we have been discussing, his price is a bit too high for a low budget amp like PA. A $200.00 offer is still too high as I have seen new PA 4 channels for under $125.00 (USD) new. So a new one would be less than $200.00 (CND)
Also, connecting your HU to this 4 channel amp, will involve several modifications you may not be too interested in doing. Specifically, adding a 4 channel line converter that changes speaker voltage to RCA line voltages. Not a hard job, nor super expensive... just time consuming. Can explain that later if you want more details.
Finally, your JL sub is 125 watts RMS, 4 ohm single voice coil. A very modest 2 channel amp, bridged MONO will do a nice job adding bass to your present system. The enclosure specs for this woofer are 0.50 -0.90 cu ft. The larger the box, the more deep bass you get. The smaller end of the spec will net punchy bass. Depending on what you listen to most, will determine what size enclosure yhou choose. A 0.75 cu ft sealed box will be a good all around enclosure here.
Swez
PS Sorry for the short answers now... am pressed for time but can add more detail later if you ask.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/29/2004 00:19:57
Hello I have solved my problem I have learned today.
This is what I ahve learned.
I got A pre amp front and a pre amd rear RCA out.
I thought that I had to disconect my wire that are directly connected to my speakers In order to use those RCA outs.
I turns out that I do not have to. he he now i am smiling and a light bulb turns it self on.
That Means If I wanted to I can get two amps one for my speakers and one for my Sub.
For now I am thinking of just Buying a 2 channel amp and connect it to my Sub. later i can remove the wires that are directly connected to my speaker and connect that to a 4 channel amp.
And this will work just fine.
I do apoligize if I made you misunderstand me. It's just that I was confused about the wire and RCA part.
Now for a 2 channel amp is for 2 speakers. I guess this is what we call bridging. put them all together into the one Sub right?
Now the other question what about the impedence will that turn into 8ohms or remain 4 ohms how does that work?
uochronos on 05/29/2004 01:27:22
to bridge the 2 channels of the amp into one channel is what well happen and that well make it 4 ohm stable which means your sub well need to be a 4 ohm sub. basicaly each channel of a 2 channel amp can take as low as a 2 ohm load but when you bridge the 2 channels into a single channel they can only take down toa 4 ohm load, the amp doesnt have ohmage its the speaker that does the ohmage rating for the amp just tells you how low of a number your amp can use. get the idea? if your fuzzy on anything please ask
~chronos
0u1lowwd2 on 05/29/2004 01:40:04
uochronos thank u
Now i can finally get an amp and get started... oh wait i need money.
So then this is what i am going to do.
1. I will take your advise you gave me the other day about leaving the four speaker dirrecly to the the stereo lower the bass volume.
Question do I take out the BOOM or from the stereo?
2. I will but a good 2 Channel Amp. Turns out that i got this friend from the gym who knows a guy who can get me car audio stuff or almost cost price. that mean the 250$ I was willing to spend on that Power acustik can go to something a lot better.
Question for a 2 channel amp. does it have to be made specifically for a Sub? if yes please give me your suggestion on what type I should get?
so thats what i am going to do.
other question If i want to replece my Regular speakers with a good kind can you tell me what brand in your opinion that sounds really good and is not expensive.?
thank you
uochronos on 05/29/2004 02:15:38
"Question do I take out the BOOM or from the stereo?" i did not understand this really.
just make sure the amp you get has a low pass setting almost all 2 channel amps have this though.
as for replacing your factory speakers there are lots of good brands, i had a set of pioneer premier speakers they sounded nice. alpine type S speakers are also a good choice. also at www.thezeb.com they have CDT coaxil speakers on sale for 44.95 a set. thats a good deal there. brands i would stay away from are regular pioneer(non premeer) these tend to lacvk for the money, also stay away from sony they are ok speakers but very over priced also they tend to be a bit shrill sounding at high volumes,
my last bit of advice would have to be watch who you buy from a friend of a friend can end up being a rip off. i have seen that situation turn out real good or really bad, had a friend buy stuff like that the deck ended up messed up and since he did not buy from an authorized dealer it was not warrantied. by all means if you get a killer deal and it works go for it just be extra carefull when dealing like that. chances are if its brand new in the box and in the guys van with a bunch of other stuff its stolen. also if its used equipment and they wont let you hook it up to power to see if it works then they probaly know something is wrong.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/29/2004 02:46:30
What i meant by boom i Meant the bass boost on my HU it is called BOOM.
Also the my friend of a friend has his own buisness selling car audio stuff. so it is pretty safe. My firend Bought this amp for his Car retail over 2000$ he got it for 1200$. It is A Power something NOT Acustik.
I don't have factory speakers though I got Koss MSP630 series the sounds good for the price. I paid 40$ Canadien a pair Cheap price here. They have two tweeters with it plus I am still running the factory tweeters with it.
By the way if you remember my car is a jetta III 99 old model.
Funny when they try to advertise the car comes with an 8 speaker system. The tweeters are seperate from the normal speaker.
So in my case I have 16 speaker plus a sub that 17. hummm.
because the Koss speaker you see is a 3 in 1 speaker thats what the call it a bass a mid range and a tweeter.
All in all i have 8 tweeters, 4 midrange, 3 regular or bass. and one big Sub
Thanks for your advise uochronos
I am thinking of getting n MTX amp. They seem good what do you suggest for a good 2 channel amp?
uochronos on 05/29/2004 03:16:28
mtx makes good stuff. i personaly like phoenix gold. there octane series is about the same price range as mtx. also jbl makes a few resonable amps the power valve series has a 150.2 which would be perfect for your sub. also alpine makes a 140watt 2 channel amp. basicaly just check to make sure the RMS wattage at 4 ohms is 125-175watts. also makes sure the amp is rated at 12-14volts input. some companies well rate them at 15+volts making the power output of the amp seem higher then it is.
ah the fact he hs his own buisness would definatly make it a reliable source. but still be carefull. also when you get a price qoute from the guy feel free to tell use and we may7 be able to find it cheaper for you online,. i personaly got a 1200watt digital class t amp for 200$ because i shoped around for it. myself and many of the others here love to shop for items and find the best deal:) sort of a good feeling to find someone an awsome deal...
also the 3 in 1 speaker as you called it is what i was refering to in my last post as a coaxil speaker just so we know what each other is talking about:)
also yes turn down the boom on yourn radio. the best way to tune your radio is turn all options too flat basicaly 0 boost then turn youerradio to the volume you normaly listen to it at. then add a bit of boost to what ever area needs it highs mids lows. you shouldnt need more then 1-3of boost and if it starts to distort a bit turn it back one notch, this is the best way to get your system sounding good.
for more info on this check the DIY section of this site i belive swez wrote an article on tweaking your system to get the most out of it. he has a way of puting things so they are very easy to understand. comes with experience:)
swez on 05/29/2004 10:22:15
Your getting the idea here rapidly. Yes, by all means, when you get the sub and amp installed, turn off the "BOOM" feature on this HU. It sucks up power that can be better used by the interior speakers and allows the sub & sub amp to fill in the lower 2 octaves of bass.
As for better interior speakers, Alpine, Infinity, CDT, Polk and several other brands would be a nice addition to the front stage of your car. Can leave the rear speaker alone until you get some cash for an amp.
I generally recommend 2-ways (Components) up front, as these provide superior sound quality over cheaper coaxials. Better speakers, better crossovers and much better sound than low budget 3-ways. However, to get the most from a quality Comp set, they need an outboard amp to drive them to full potential w/o excess distortion. That can be added later as $$ permits.
About MTX amps... not a bad brand here, but these are generally not cheap either. Not the best value on the block, unless you can get one near dealer cost. Phoenix Gold, JBL, PPI, US Acoustics and JL all make fine amps. A little shopping will net the best bang for your buck.
Look here:
1. OCTANE-R 2.5:2 $108.00 (USD)
12dB HP/LP fixed crossovers
• Full range aux output
• Dimensions: 8.75L x 10.875W x 2.25H
80W x 2 (4 ohm stereo)
250W x 1 (4 ohm bridged) ****
http://www.justamps.com/
2. Clarion APX401.2 $118.00 (USD)
Continuous Average Power Output 200W (100W x 2 into 4 Ohms 20Hz- 20kHz @0.05% THD)
Typical 2-Ohm Stereo 190W x 2 @ 0.5% THD
Typical Bridged Power 1kHz 380W @ 0.5% THD ***
Bass Extender Control 0~18dB @ 45Hz
Adjustable 55Hz-5.5kHz, 12dB/oct. High/Low Pass Crossover
Mixed-Mode Operation
Bridgeable 2/1 Channel Operation
Speaker Level Inputs
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/187
3. PrecisionPower PCX-250 $119.00 (USD)
2 Channel Amplifier
Q-Bass Bass Boost
Adaptive PWM Power Supply
Advanced Instrumentation Input
HP/LP/Full 30-4KHZ X-Over
HP/LP/Full 30-4KHZ RCA Output
2 x 50 4 Ohm Stereo
2 x 100 2 Ohm Stereo
1 x 200 4 Ohm Mono ****
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1816
4. HiFonics Warrior Falcon $105.00 (USD)
2-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: 2-channel
RMS Power: 90W x 2
Bridged RMS Power: 280W x 1 ****
THD at Rated RMS Power: n/a
Speaker Level Inputs: No
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 - 18 dB
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Channel Separation: n/a
Signal to Noise Ratio: n/a
Fuse Rating: n/a
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/HIFFALCON
6. MTX Audio Thunder202 $150.00 (USD)
2-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: 2-channel
RMS Power: 50W x 2 @ 14.4V
Bridged RMS Power: 200W x 1 @ 14.4V **
THD at Rated RMS Power: <1%
Speaker Level Inputs: Yes
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: n/a
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Channel Separation: n/a
Signal to Noise Ratio: >100 dB
Fuse Rating: 20 amps
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/MTX202
7. US acoustics USB-600D $120.00 (USD)
200 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms ***
300 watts x 1 at 2 ohms
efficient Class D technology
requires 10-gauge power and ground leads — wiring and hardware not included with amplifier
variable low-pass crossover (30-250 Hz, 12 dB/octave)
8 dB bass boost at 63 Hz through on-amp control
phase invert switch (0 or 180 degrees)
remote level control with 16' cable
thermal, short-circuit, and power/ground reversal protection
9-1/4"W x 2-5/8"H x 9-5/8"D
3-year warranty
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-PuRRvugbmfy/cgi-bin
/ProdView.asp?i=235USB600D
OK, that should keep you busy for a while. You may have to contact a few of the sellers to see what shipping rates are to Montreal, CAN. Some will ship to CANADA, while others may not. If you have any friends with US mailing addresses in upstate New York, have them order the amp and ship it to you. You may reduce Customs issues, extra duty and taxes.
Swez
PS The rating system used is as followed:
* = poor
** = fair
*** = above average
**** = best value
PSS Was your friend talking about a Precision Power 4 channel for $1000.00... that makes sense as PPI makes some fine gear.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/30/2004 02:58:20
Thanks Swez and uochronos
Swez that was PrecisionPower you seam to recomend it. with 4 stars. so I will look into it also the others you listed.
I heard of one called Pyle is it good or is it a Pile of ....
Like I hade a Pyramid amp once and it di not do a thing for these to el cheapo subs i had in the past check this out they were called super sound the only reason I had those was because I wanted the enclosure it came with the two bass were facing each other at an angle. also there were sealed with a plastic window. and each back of the sub had a ported hole. I thought it was cool. I hade paid like 70$ for the hole thing two subs and the box.
Now I want to tear the box open and put it back together. To make a normal Looking Box. although the the enclosure did look cool.
I know now that I will stay far away from Pyramid type amps. No disrespect for those who have them it is just not for me. Like most people would say what am i doing with Koss speakers in my car. for the price they are worth it and sound good. But I do wnat better.
But with a Getto Budget like I have. It will have to do. I am Thniking Infinity. I do trust My Sub I know JL Audio is pretty good.
I did make a test with a legacy Amp. That to me is Just like Pyramid in my view.
I wnet to the flee market today to look at what they had.
These amps I never heard of like one was ken somthing (Not Kenwood) and this other name I forgot
But i was checking 5 channel amps there is this one on e-bay
5 channel 1,200 watt Boss Mosfet Car amp RT945 right now at 2:53am it is set at 200$ Canadian is that a good Amp.?
Anyhow guy will check this place out tomorow night after I go see the movie The Day After Tomorow.
What is funny about me haveing a low budget system in my car is that It is the oposite in my living room where I have high end stuff. the hole Home theater stuff. It took four year to come to what it is now, and a lot of $$$$$ Plus now I am thinking of Getting a New TV in the Future like a DPL Screen Awsome color and also it is the 16:9 ratio I like.
see ya
uochronos on 05/30/2004 03:20:59
from what little first hand aexperience i have with boss amps and what i ahve heard they are not a high end amp. if you know the model i could help more.
infinity are a very nice speakers a bit on the spendy side though if not shopped around in my opinion.
your home audio system sound a bit like my car i have spent 2 years building my car syustem one high end component at a time and am very proud of the out come 90% of which was goten from direction here.
swez on 05/30/2004 12:06:21
PPI (Precision Power) is a fine amp and they make quality gear. Trouble is, not cheap... unless you have a contact that can sell them at just over cost.
The other amps mentioned... Pyle, Pyramid, Boss, Legacy are all in the * & ** category of quality. The upper end amps in the line are better... but for a few more $$'s why not buy quality gear. Shopping hard, is the key to low budget, high quality gear. Most of us are very much bargain hunters as well.
Try to think about your end goal here. Then work back from that, one step at a time. As budget permits... add some good gear. In time, you will have a first rate car audio system that will not break the piggy bank. (just as you did in your HT system)
Swez
0u1lowwd2 on 05/31/2004 01:34:25
Hello guys.
So I did something today. I went to the store where I bought My jl audio Sub. and I Baught another one now I got 2 of them. yup. from what I am told it is a better ballanced sound. It does make sence in a way but at least that is out of the way because I was really wondering all week if it was a good enough just one sub then today I heard the Differance. Although it might not be a big differance it just sounded better.
Now is that I have to reconfigure my enclosure. I could use the box I have but I am worried that it might not give me the sound qualitiy I want.
The way my box is made Something called "Dual Band Pass" or something like that. The 2 Subs. face each other at a 90 deg. angle and a plexy glass enclosing the hole so you can see the two subs. Also on the front side of the box there is ported holes on each side. There is these two plastic tubes inside not 5 inches long. But the Problem is that the Holes are 4" Dia. way to much.
Now my evil genius is thinking lets be cheap on this you are a machinist you know how to work with presision tools take out the front of the box take out part of the wood inside where the Subs are bolted. Just take out material enough to leave room for the back of the Sub. reenforce the structure inside. then put a new front plate 3/4" to an 1"thick. glue it on, and nail it on. then put that carpet thing over it. Now the big Question is:
To Port or Not to Port?
In the JL Audio website they say to make the enclosure much bigger for ported Wha I have now would not cover there specs.
But when I go to the Stores I see these Boxes there not even big enough for a sealed box and there still ported. So the people who make these Enclosures (Boxes). do they know what there doing??
Ok lets try this I will wright down the specs of the Subs I have.
and if you can tell me how big I should have my box made.
Now as I told you if you are familiar with VW Jetta III generation. You know the trunk is Big and deep. Ex. You can have you and your girlfriend in that trunk and have a good time with plenty of manuvering.
so here are the specs.
(I don't know what certain terms mean so if you do not mind explaining them to me.)
My Subs are 10W0-4
Free Air Resonance (Fs) : 24.2Hz
Electical "Q" (Qes) : 0.420
Mechanical "Q" (Qms) : 8.560
Total Speaker "Q" (Qts) : 0.400
Equiv. Compliance (Vas) : 2.45 ft-cu. or 69.4 litres
One-Way, Linear Excursion (Xmax)* : 0.340" or 8.6mm
Efficiency ( IW / lm )** : 85.5dB
Effective Piston Area (Sd) : 54.7"-sq.. 0.0353m-sq.
DC Resistence (Re)*** : 3.86ohmes
Nominal Impedance : 4ohmes
Power Handling (continous) : 125W
Mounting Depth : 5.375in 137mm
Mounting Hole Dia. : 9.125" 232mm
Driver Displacement : 0.050 ft-cu 1.4 litres
* Xmax specifications are derived via one-way voice coil overhang method with no correction factors applied.
** Efficency ( IW / lm ) is not an accurate indicator of a subwoofer's output capability and should not be used as a comparision to other subwoofers to determine which one is "louder".
***All other specifications remain the same.
I wrote this exacly how it is written in the manual i have.
So I hope this can be of help to which size I should be making this box.
Oh yeah one more thing should I divide the middle part of the Box to seperate both Subs or should all Vibration move freely in side the hole box.
Thank you
Will be back tomorrow for some insight.
Speaking of Tomorrow I went to see The Day After Tomorrow.
Great special effects I mean Wow But Thats It.
See ya.
uochronos on 05/31/2004 02:05:47
someone was very busy today hehe.
as for a second sub its more a choice of taste alot of people like 2 subs i personaly prefer one for space reasons but it well add 3db of volume.
as for ported or sealed thats about your personaly tastes and goal. a sealed enclosure is very responsive and great for SQ(sound quality) as for ported it well net you 3db more volume per sub and well still be good on sq just not quite as resxponsive. also ported well be a bit better at the really low notes.
swez on 05/31/2004 08:04:53
Eric,
You are working too hard on the tech data for these subs. The web site has all that and we just cut & paste as needed.... or provide a web addy for details: www.jlaudio.com/
This sub is suitable for sealed or ported enclosures. The .pdf file has details on both enclosure recommedations and all specs too:
Sealed = 0.75 cf/sub (21.2 l)
Ported = 1.25 cf/sub (35.4 l) port = 3" dia, x 14.7" (76mm x 373mm)
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/pdfs/10_12_15W0_MAN.pdf
If you are that handy, (a Machinist) why not have the fun of building your own spec enclosure and sell the BP w/o subs for as much as you can? Depending on the net internal air volume available, it could be modified to use as sealed or ported.
The 4th Order Band Pass enclosure you mentioned, is one of the most efficient sub enclosure designs to get high bass SPL. When made to specs of a given sub, they do pretty well at making lots of noise. But there are drawbacks too. If made improperly, the subs can be trashed in short order and you'd never hear it until they die.
Sealed or Ported??? Depends on space available, type of music you like and personal preferences. Ported is more efficient and you get a few extra dB of SPL near tuning freq. Sealed sounds smoother, better transient response (quick cone actions) in a small package.
In either case, it is a good idea to use a divider board so that each sub has it's own air chamber. This board also provides rigidity to the box and keeps it from flexing with high SPL bass.
Now, you have 2 subs now... the amp choices have just changed. You can now use a Class D sub amp to power these puppies. That amp will need to be stable at 2 ohms & can put out 300 - 400 RMS @ 2 ohms. Class D is a very efficient amp design (~90% eff.) for sub applications.
Generally, MONO amps are less cost than a two channel amps of same power rating and more efficient use of power. A 2 channel amp is only ~60% efficient. For every 100 watts the amp consumes, you get 60 watts out to the sub. That's why Class D (or Class T) amps are prefered.
OK, enough to chew on for now. If you care to, measure the outer dimensions of that BP box you have now. If it is close to the dimensions of either dual sealed or ported, can hack it apart and use the shell. Measure the height, width, depth and board thickness. I'll crunch a few numbers and see if it can be used.
Swez
0u1lowwd2 on 05/31/2004 23:51:10
Hello Guys I am really sorry to bother you with all these questions.
As an ex Machinist, (I am a Draftsman now). I am very maticulous about my work And I love pressision, You must Understand once that is in you it is in you. For example. My wife thinks i am insane. Because When I put a Picture frame I use a level indicator and put marks on the wall for the frame to be exacly the same distance from the sealing at both ends. I would say the frame is about .010" off. Well my son moved it a couple of times.... Well you know where I am coming from.
All this to tell you thanks a whole bunch you guy have been great in helping me with this situation.
Swez my box is 28-1/8"width x 12"high x 16-1/8"dp.
Now the Fudged up part is, and i am not crazy about this.
The front and back are like 1-1/8thk and the sides are 5/8 thk.
And that wood is that type MDF I beleive like glued wood chips.
I think personally it is a good size box.
Now everybody has so many opinions on this. And personally it drives me nuts. Where should you point the sub. some told me directly to your seats. some told me striaght to where you open the trunk. some say to the sides.
Personally This is what I am thinking of doing.
Make the box from my old one remove the hole front.
Design a new one with a twist.
Have the subs Center to Center Distance of between 13" to 14" Have them Angled away from each other at 10 to 12deg.
If i send them both in there corners. it might make a diferance in sound. I will divided the Middle of the Box As you said have there own Air Chamber.
Now here is a crazy idea I have not sure if it would work. Might sound insane.
So you got the Divider seperating the chamber right leave about 2" from the front.
Now on each side of the divider add a piece of wood touching the front of the Box and leaving about a 1/4" in the Back.
In the Front it would give an ilussion of one ported slit very small not big 1/2".
Also this will renforce the box. Now I don't know if it would Sound good.
You guys I don't know how much experience you have in this if you ever heard of this. befor or is it Nuts.
Anyhow let me know what you think
Oh yeah also Grounding the Amp.
Big Question.
I am not To Crazy about removing paint and drilling a hole in my trunk. I don't mind removing paint in a remote place but a hole no way. I have this Magnet out of a Hardrive, and if you put that sucker at least 1/4" near the fridge it will go and hit it with a SLAM!!Hardrive Magnets are Strong. You see where i am getting at ?.
If I would Hold the ground with a Magnet would that do some damage to the Amp.
A frend and I were Debating it today.
PS if you have a busted p.c. somwhere open up the hardrive and take out those magnets. it will feel like as if something is bolted and that you forgot to remove a screw, but you did not. it is the magnets facing another one and they are strong suckers.
Thanks guys.
uochronos on 06/1/2004 02:14:20
the magnet would not damage the amp unless it was very close to the amp. after all i have my amp mounted to my box with a 180oz of magnets 6 inches from it... the subs being the magnets however this would not work as well as a secure screw or bolt. alot of people use the seat belt bolt. or some other bracket that is already in place as to not have to dril another hole. i myself used one of the bolts holding down my rear seats in my truck.
as for pointing the subs this is a subject of alot of debate. pointing them right at the seat makes little sense to me because they cant move air then. in cars i always butt them up against the seat pointing towards the trunk lid. this seems to net the most response and clean sound. however you can move them about trying differnt locatiosn and fidning what sounds best to you.
as for the box design you mentioned i'm assumeing you mean you would be porting each sub. the thing here is the subs have to be ported to the corect frequency if the ports are too large the subs well over extend themselve and self destruct on you. if the port is to small you well not get the right sound out of it at all. so thats important to figure out the frequency they need to be ported at then figure out what dimensions you need, there is a very good DIY article in the archives about ported enclosures.
hope this helped a bit.
~chronos
swez on 06/1/2004 11:09:21
OK, ran some numbers and this present enclosure will net out to ~2.3 cf internally when all the guts are removed. A bit too small for porting, a hair too large for sealed... but with some angled face mods, you can get there sealed.
As for material to use, yes... MDF is the prefered material in sub enclosures. (NOT REGULAR PARTICLE BOARD OR OSB) For upscale box designs, Baltic Birch plywood is excellent... but very expensive.
OK, your present subs require 0.75 cf per sub of air space. There is a +/-10% fudge factor here, so you can go a bit over or under that spec and still have very good bass performance. Once you gut the box so that only sides, top, bottom and back are there, then finding center point and installing a divider panel is next. Can use 5/8 - 3/4" MDF there and 3/4" MDF for sub baffle panels. The angle you choose will help zero in on the target internal air space. You will have to remove the ports and cap off the holes as well. Bondo works well as a filler.
Since you are probably used to working in Metric and American measuring standard, I assume you know the conversion factors.
1 ft^3 = 28.32 Liters
1" = 25.4 mm
Finally, this is not rocket science or die making grade tolerances. There is room for marginal deviations and still obtain excellent results. Do you drive others nuts with your pursuits in precise measuring? Having a very detailed thinking process is excellent for many things in life. Swez is more of a "Big Picture" personality with a good eye for details as well. (a real odd-ball combination huh?) LOL
Comments?
Swez
0u1lowwd2 on 06/1/2004 22:10:57
Hello guys
I have decided to go Sealed I got an e-mail from JL audio and they said that my current enclosure size is to small for to be Ported and that Sealed would be Fine Just like Swez says. (Well Swez said It is a bit big for Sealed. But Like I said I will give some angle and divide the chamber with a thick wood and reenforce the Enclosure even more and get that Pillow Stuffing Stuff...
I was Wondering If I can put some Dynamat in my trunk or is it a waste of money. Actually how would Dynamat afect the Subs if you put it inside the enclosure.
http://www.dynamat.com/home.htm
Oh I got a question WHat is the Deal with the hugh capacitor some people use with there Systems.
As for an Amp. I got in Mind PPI or Rockford Fosgate Mono.
what you think About that?
Let me tell you what i have so far a Panasonic CQ-DF583U cd wma mp3 player. no bass control on this one.
I have also (ok I know they are not the best but for the Price they sound good) Koss MSP630 6-1/2 speakers 4x 50w rms 180w peak.
I also just purchaseed a Subwoofer a JL Audio 10W04 now it say in a panflet that is is 250w peak and for optimum ouput level i should run it at 125w rms
ok now the fun part I need to buy an Amplifier.
So a friend of a friend has this Power Acoustik Amp 1000w peak ok. I do not know the rms Wattage. It supose to have a 4 channel brigeable thingy. where i can put 4 speakers and 2 subs on top of that. This is what he told me. Apearantly you can do all kinids with it. and it had these little needle gauges on them. I just Kow it is a Power Acoustik model name ???.
and it is a few years old. Now i don't know how old that is. His asking price is 250$ Canadian. Now to me it might be a bit steep speacially used. But I read good Reviews about Power Acoustiks. Amp.
Now should I buy it or not Or any of you have any suggestion for me.
Also I want to rewire all my speakers with a good wire. is 14 gauge to much. and 10 gauge for the sub??
Please any guru out there help me out.
p.s. How do I know that i am at my optimum output range when adjusting the amp.??
Replies (25)
0u1lowwd2 on 05/27/2004 00:10:22
I have a Jetta III 99 the old shape. big trunk space do not want to use it all. I want to know what I can take appart and not in the car to easy my work load
ttocs on 05/27/2004 08:43:26
it would be helpfull if you had the model number. We can get a better idea then.
swez on 05/27/2004 09:38:38
That is a bit high for a used 4 channel Power Acoustic amp. It says 1000 watts output...but that is peak. Translated to RMS, this is more like 60 watts RMS per channel x 4 or 120 watts RMS x 2 when bridged. Not anything special here in all.
Not sure what the CND/USD currency conversion rate is now, but assuming $1.00 CND = $0.67 USD or ($1.00 USD = $1.47 CND) Yep, that's confirmed! A (-33 cents) (USD) differential here.
OK, let's define your goals and budget here. That will dictate the path you will want to consider as you shop and compare.
OPTIONS:
1. If you have 4 interior Koss speakers installed now and like them... stick with it for the time being. A decent 4 channel amp is best here as you can drive each channel to 50-75 watts RMS and still be fine. This option will give you complete control over front to rear staging volume for best balance.
2. If you wish to add a modest sub to the mix (I would & did) then a sub amp to power your sub gives best flexibilty, but 2 amps to buy and install. A modest sub amp of say 100 - 150 watts (RMS) is very inexpensive. About a buck a watt CND. (brand/features dependent)
3. Another option is to use a 5 channel amp. Four channels for interior and 1 sub channel... all in one casing. Easy deal here, just a tad more expensive.
4. That HU mentioned (Panasonic CQ-DF583U) has 25 x 4 RMS watts output to each speaker. A 50 watt per channel amp will only increase your SPL by about +3dB/channel. Not a big difference to what your ears can detect... just a bit less distortion at high listening levels. You can get more clean SPL to your interior speakers by using less Bass boost and let the sub handle that department. This is your cheapest option and will still net better results than you have now.
OK, have a few questions and comments on these options? Fire away! Oh... changing your interior speaker wiring is not needed here. Most stock speakers use #16 gage wire. At this power level, there is no real benefit going to all that extra work. Save your money and time.
Comments,
Swez
PS Got a budget in mind here and what are you hoping to achieve when this install is completed?
By just adding a modest sub amp to power your JL woofer will make a notable difference here as your HU and interior speakers will not have to reproduce heavy bass.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/27/2004 23:27:47
Hello guys Sorry if i reply late it is because i can only do this late and get the answer the next day. Thank for your Help though. So Let me try to understand better There is a 5 channel amp out there? cool got to check it out. Basically I have a Low budget on this thing. But I don't think just because It is low budget that it cannot sound good. But I would not mind Investigating in a little more on a good amp., incase later on i get better speakers. I know that the JL Audio is not a cheap brand I may have taken only a 10" Sub but i felt that it was good for me because I listen to everything in music. I know that 12" is the way to go speacially if you listen to Hip Hop. Anyhow it was a demo it was cheap and I have it now.
I am worried about my impedence though If I get a 4 channel Brigeable Amp. I got 5 speakers at 4 ohms each the output let say is 4 ohms per channel there is 4 ohms less (if it works that way) Will the amp. divid the ohms eaqually?? how does it work.
Can i risk damaging my stero or my amp for that matter.
As for the power acoustik model number yet i should have it next week.
I was wondering about my box for the Sub should follow the rules from JL Audio ? or is it just guid lines. To me they make sence.
When i go to the stores though it seams that the boxes are to small and not done right. according to JL Audio specs. This is one reason why I want to built it myself.
Question for SWEZ
You mentioned something about my HU putting out 25rms and that A 50 watt per channel amp will only increase your SPL by about +3dB/channel do you mean by this that I don't connect them to an Amp.? or Just an Amp that Doesn't Feed 50w rms to my speakers. Also you said to lower my Bass and let the Sub handle that departement. The only way i see this is to take my rear pre amp. outputs and connect them to an amp. now if this is what I have to do how will this affect the impedence of my rear speakers and how will it affect me HU. Can I risk damaging it.
Anyhow before I wright a bible let me stop here. please help me understande this impedence a little better.
thank you guys
uochronos on 05/27/2004 23:53:07
even with a modest budget it can sound good just takes a bit longer to find good deals and get it all hooked up right, just have to be patient.
ok as far as ohms go that is not the out put. ohms are the resistance that channel need to run most 4 channel amps can handle a 2ohm or more load but cant handle less then 2 ohms. if you have 5 speakers i'm assuming you mean 4 full range(door speakers) and a sub. if you want to amp them all you would need a 4 channel for the 4 door speakers and then a amp for the sub. or you would need a 5 channel amp to run all speakers off one amp. you cant run sub and 4 door speakers off of a single 4 channel amp.
as for the box you can have most car audio shops build a box for your specific speaker but most the ones they have just laying around are just basic generic boxes usualy like .5 cubic feet, 1 cubic feet, etc. those are good if your speaker calls for that size box other wise you well need to have them build you a custom one or build it yourself. if you choose to build it your self then we can walk you threw how to do it.
as for do you need to follow jls guidline you can fudge on them a bit to get the box to fit the car but if the box is overly large your speaker well over extend itself and end up damageing itself. if the box is overly small you well not get the full potential out of it.
as for what swez said about your HU puting out 25x4 rms and an 50watt x 4 amp would only add +3db. what he meant was that paying 200$ or more to add +3db especialy running as small a sub as you are isnt really nessicary. it wont hurt but it isnt really needed. in general you want your mids and highs to have around 1/8 ratio to your bass. menaing if you have 800watts to a sub you want around 100watts to your mids and highs. so 25watts to your mids and highs off your head unit and 125-150watts to your sub i think would even out well.
i tried to write this as carefully as i could but if you get confused on it just ask and we shall respond there are nop stupid questions when your starting out.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/28/2004 00:22:04
Hello uochronos
Tell me what do they mean by Bridged Because The Amp I am supose to get is a 4 channel bridged. And he told me that it has an output plug for the sub on it plus the 4 channel connections.
He told me that the guy i am supose to buy it from had 4 speaker plus 2 subs on it. Now I am confused. If he did that then it must be ok for my car. If you want to know I have a Jetta III 99 Big Trunk lots of space. Can you please explain to me.
This amp is by a company called Power acoustiks and i read on the net that it was a good amp. My friend told me that his freind paid 1000$ for it at the time he wants to sell it 250$ i am thinking 200$.
uochronos on 05/28/2004 02:32:43
1000$ seems a bit steep i doubt he payed that but i dont know alot about power acustik so maybe. i have a very nice 2 channel phoenix gold that i bought at a store for only 400$ and its a 500watt amp.
if he had 4 speakers and 2 subs i would assume it is a 5 channel amp then, hmm i just browsed a couple web sites that sell power acoustik and the most expensive amp i could find was 2300watts to 1 channel and it was around 500$ brand new. and they had several 4 channel amps i saw for under 200$ brand new. seems to me unless this amp is something very special he is over charging a bit for a used amp... once we get the model number we can say for sure.
bridged is as follows basicaly. say i have a 2 channel amp that puts out 125watts per channel at 4 ohms or 250watts per channel at 2 ohms. if i where to bridge this amp i would get one single channel that puts out 500watts at 4 ohms. now to bridge means to basicaly connect the 2 channels of the amp into one channel. usualy this is down by taking the positive of one channel and the negitive from the other channel. although this can vary between brands. i hope that clears up bridging a bit for you.
i suggest you goto www.thezeb.com and look at power acoustic amps there to get an idea of how much these amps usualy cost new. the zeb has very good prices in general so those are going to be reasonably low prices.
also dont nessicarily trust what other people have done to amps and subs in there cars i have friends that have systems that are hooked up insanly wrong but still work although eventualy either and amp or speaker goes out, usualy due to a very easily corrected problems.
any more questions please feel free to ask
~chronos
swez on 05/28/2004 09:20:25
After reading your comments and questions, it sounds like the HU you have now, only has rear channel RCA outputs. With that option in mind.. I would suggest running the interior speakers off the HU only for now. Use the RCA out on the HU, to power a modest sub amp.
As for the 4 channel amp we have been discussing, his price is a bit too high for a low budget amp like PA. A $200.00 offer is still too high as I have seen new PA 4 channels for under $125.00 (USD) new. So a new one would be less than $200.00 (CND)
Also, connecting your HU to this 4 channel amp, will involve several modifications you may not be too interested in doing. Specifically, adding a 4 channel line converter that changes speaker voltage to RCA line voltages. Not a hard job, nor super expensive... just time consuming. Can explain that later if you want more details.
Finally, your JL sub is 125 watts RMS, 4 ohm single voice coil. A very modest 2 channel amp, bridged MONO will do a nice job adding bass to your present system. The enclosure specs for this woofer are 0.50 -0.90 cu ft. The larger the box, the more deep bass you get. The smaller end of the spec will net punchy bass. Depending on what you listen to most, will determine what size enclosure yhou choose. A 0.75 cu ft sealed box will be a good all around enclosure here.
Swez
PS Sorry for the short answers now... am pressed for time but can add more detail later if you ask.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/29/2004 00:19:57
Hello I have solved my problem I have learned today.
This is what I ahve learned.
I got A pre amp front and a pre amd rear RCA out.
I thought that I had to disconect my wire that are directly connected to my speakers In order to use those RCA outs.
I turns out that I do not have to. he he now i am smiling and a light bulb turns it self on.
That Means If I wanted to I can get two amps one for my speakers and one for my Sub.
For now I am thinking of just Buying a 2 channel amp and connect it to my Sub. later i can remove the wires that are directly connected to my speaker and connect that to a 4 channel amp.
And this will work just fine.
I do apoligize if I made you misunderstand me. It's just that I was confused about the wire and RCA part.
Now for a 2 channel amp is for 2 speakers. I guess this is what we call bridging. put them all together into the one Sub right?
Now the other question what about the impedence will that turn into 8ohms or remain 4 ohms how does that work?
uochronos on 05/29/2004 01:27:22
to bridge the 2 channels of the amp into one channel is what well happen and that well make it 4 ohm stable which means your sub well need to be a 4 ohm sub. basicaly each channel of a 2 channel amp can take as low as a 2 ohm load but when you bridge the 2 channels into a single channel they can only take down toa 4 ohm load, the amp doesnt have ohmage its the speaker that does the ohmage rating for the amp just tells you how low of a number your amp can use. get the idea? if your fuzzy on anything please ask
~chronos
0u1lowwd2 on 05/29/2004 01:40:04
uochronos thank u
Now i can finally get an amp and get started... oh wait i need money.
So then this is what i am going to do.
1. I will take your advise you gave me the other day about leaving the four speaker dirrecly to the the stereo lower the bass volume.
Question do I take out the BOOM or from the stereo?
2. I will but a good 2 Channel Amp. Turns out that i got this friend from the gym who knows a guy who can get me car audio stuff or almost cost price. that mean the 250$ I was willing to spend on that Power acustik can go to something a lot better.
Question for a 2 channel amp. does it have to be made specifically for a Sub? if yes please give me your suggestion on what type I should get?
so thats what i am going to do.
other question If i want to replece my Regular speakers with a good kind can you tell me what brand in your opinion that sounds really good and is not expensive.?
thank you
uochronos on 05/29/2004 02:15:38
"Question do I take out the BOOM or from the stereo?" i did not understand this really.
just make sure the amp you get has a low pass setting almost all 2 channel amps have this though.
as for replacing your factory speakers there are lots of good brands, i had a set of pioneer premier speakers they sounded nice. alpine type S speakers are also a good choice. also at www.thezeb.com they have CDT coaxil speakers on sale for 44.95 a set. thats a good deal there. brands i would stay away from are regular pioneer(non premeer) these tend to lacvk for the money, also stay away from sony they are ok speakers but very over priced also they tend to be a bit shrill sounding at high volumes,
my last bit of advice would have to be watch who you buy from a friend of a friend can end up being a rip off. i have seen that situation turn out real good or really bad, had a friend buy stuff like that the deck ended up messed up and since he did not buy from an authorized dealer it was not warrantied. by all means if you get a killer deal and it works go for it just be extra carefull when dealing like that. chances are if its brand new in the box and in the guys van with a bunch of other stuff its stolen. also if its used equipment and they wont let you hook it up to power to see if it works then they probaly know something is wrong.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/29/2004 02:46:30
What i meant by boom i Meant the bass boost on my HU it is called BOOM.
Also the my friend of a friend has his own buisness selling car audio stuff. so it is pretty safe. My firend Bought this amp for his Car retail over 2000$ he got it for 1200$. It is A Power something NOT Acustik.
I don't have factory speakers though I got Koss MSP630 series the sounds good for the price. I paid 40$ Canadien a pair Cheap price here. They have two tweeters with it plus I am still running the factory tweeters with it.
By the way if you remember my car is a jetta III 99 old model.
Funny when they try to advertise the car comes with an 8 speaker system. The tweeters are seperate from the normal speaker.
So in my case I have 16 speaker plus a sub that 17. hummm.
because the Koss speaker you see is a 3 in 1 speaker thats what the call it a bass a mid range and a tweeter.
All in all i have 8 tweeters, 4 midrange, 3 regular or bass. and one big Sub
Thanks for your advise uochronos
I am thinking of getting n MTX amp. They seem good what do you suggest for a good 2 channel amp?
uochronos on 05/29/2004 03:16:28
mtx makes good stuff. i personaly like phoenix gold. there octane series is about the same price range as mtx. also jbl makes a few resonable amps the power valve series has a 150.2 which would be perfect for your sub. also alpine makes a 140watt 2 channel amp. basicaly just check to make sure the RMS wattage at 4 ohms is 125-175watts. also makes sure the amp is rated at 12-14volts input. some companies well rate them at 15+volts making the power output of the amp seem higher then it is.
ah the fact he hs his own buisness would definatly make it a reliable source. but still be carefull. also when you get a price qoute from the guy feel free to tell use and we may7 be able to find it cheaper for you online,. i personaly got a 1200watt digital class t amp for 200$ because i shoped around for it. myself and many of the others here love to shop for items and find the best deal:) sort of a good feeling to find someone an awsome deal...
also the 3 in 1 speaker as you called it is what i was refering to in my last post as a coaxil speaker just so we know what each other is talking about:)
also yes turn down the boom on yourn radio. the best way to tune your radio is turn all options too flat basicaly 0 boost then turn youerradio to the volume you normaly listen to it at. then add a bit of boost to what ever area needs it highs mids lows. you shouldnt need more then 1-3of boost and if it starts to distort a bit turn it back one notch, this is the best way to get your system sounding good.
for more info on this check the DIY section of this site i belive swez wrote an article on tweaking your system to get the most out of it. he has a way of puting things so they are very easy to understand. comes with experience:)
swez on 05/29/2004 10:22:15
Your getting the idea here rapidly. Yes, by all means, when you get the sub and amp installed, turn off the "BOOM" feature on this HU. It sucks up power that can be better used by the interior speakers and allows the sub & sub amp to fill in the lower 2 octaves of bass.
As for better interior speakers, Alpine, Infinity, CDT, Polk and several other brands would be a nice addition to the front stage of your car. Can leave the rear speaker alone until you get some cash for an amp.
I generally recommend 2-ways (Components) up front, as these provide superior sound quality over cheaper coaxials. Better speakers, better crossovers and much better sound than low budget 3-ways. However, to get the most from a quality Comp set, they need an outboard amp to drive them to full potential w/o excess distortion. That can be added later as $$ permits.
About MTX amps... not a bad brand here, but these are generally not cheap either. Not the best value on the block, unless you can get one near dealer cost. Phoenix Gold, JBL, PPI, US Acoustics and JL all make fine amps. A little shopping will net the best bang for your buck.
Look here:
1. OCTANE-R 2.5:2 $108.00 (USD)
12dB HP/LP fixed crossovers
• Full range aux output
• Dimensions: 8.75L x 10.875W x 2.25H
80W x 2 (4 ohm stereo)
250W x 1 (4 ohm bridged) ****
http://www.justamps.com/
2. Clarion APX401.2 $118.00 (USD)
Continuous Average Power Output 200W (100W x 2 into 4 Ohms 20Hz- 20kHz @0.05% THD)
Typical 2-Ohm Stereo 190W x 2 @ 0.5% THD
Typical Bridged Power 1kHz 380W @ 0.5% THD ***
Bass Extender Control 0~18dB @ 45Hz
Adjustable 55Hz-5.5kHz, 12dB/oct. High/Low Pass Crossover
Mixed-Mode Operation
Bridgeable 2/1 Channel Operation
Speaker Level Inputs
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/187
3. PrecisionPower PCX-250 $119.00 (USD)
2 Channel Amplifier
Q-Bass Bass Boost
Adaptive PWM Power Supply
Advanced Instrumentation Input
HP/LP/Full 30-4KHZ X-Over
HP/LP/Full 30-4KHZ RCA Output
2 x 50 4 Ohm Stereo
2 x 100 2 Ohm Stereo
1 x 200 4 Ohm Mono ****
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1816
4. HiFonics Warrior Falcon $105.00 (USD)
2-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: 2-channel
RMS Power: 90W x 2
Bridged RMS Power: 280W x 1 ****
THD at Rated RMS Power: n/a
Speaker Level Inputs: No
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: 0 - 18 dB
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Channel Separation: n/a
Signal to Noise Ratio: n/a
Fuse Rating: n/a
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/HIFFALCON
6. MTX Audio Thunder202 $150.00 (USD)
2-Channel Amp Specifications
Amplifier Type: 2-channel
RMS Power: 50W x 2 @ 14.4V
Bridged RMS Power: 200W x 1 @ 14.4V **
THD at Rated RMS Power: <1%
Speaker Level Inputs: Yes
Preamp Outputs: Yes
Built-In Crossovers: HP/LP
Bass Boost: n/a
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Channel Separation: n/a
Signal to Noise Ratio: >100 dB
Fuse Rating: 20 amps
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/MTX202
7. US acoustics USB-600D $120.00 (USD)
200 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms ***
300 watts x 1 at 2 ohms
efficient Class D technology
requires 10-gauge power and ground leads — wiring and hardware not included with amplifier
variable low-pass crossover (30-250 Hz, 12 dB/octave)
8 dB bass boost at 63 Hz through on-amp control
phase invert switch (0 or 180 degrees)
remote level control with 16' cable
thermal, short-circuit, and power/ground reversal protection
9-1/4"W x 2-5/8"H x 9-5/8"D
3-year warranty
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-PuRRvugbmfy/cgi-bin
/ProdView.asp?i=235USB600D
OK, that should keep you busy for a while. You may have to contact a few of the sellers to see what shipping rates are to Montreal, CAN. Some will ship to CANADA, while others may not. If you have any friends with US mailing addresses in upstate New York, have them order the amp and ship it to you. You may reduce Customs issues, extra duty and taxes.
Swez
PS The rating system used is as followed:
* = poor
** = fair
*** = above average
**** = best value
PSS Was your friend talking about a Precision Power 4 channel for $1000.00... that makes sense as PPI makes some fine gear.
0u1lowwd2 on 05/30/2004 02:58:20
Thanks Swez and uochronos
Swez that was PrecisionPower you seam to recomend it. with 4 stars. so I will look into it also the others you listed.
I heard of one called Pyle is it good or is it a Pile of ....
Like I hade a Pyramid amp once and it di not do a thing for these to el cheapo subs i had in the past check this out they were called super sound the only reason I had those was because I wanted the enclosure it came with the two bass were facing each other at an angle. also there were sealed with a plastic window. and each back of the sub had a ported hole. I thought it was cool. I hade paid like 70$ for the hole thing two subs and the box.
Now I want to tear the box open and put it back together. To make a normal Looking Box. although the the enclosure did look cool.
I know now that I will stay far away from Pyramid type amps. No disrespect for those who have them it is just not for me. Like most people would say what am i doing with Koss speakers in my car. for the price they are worth it and sound good. But I do wnat better.
But with a Getto Budget like I have. It will have to do. I am Thniking Infinity. I do trust My Sub I know JL Audio is pretty good.
I did make a test with a legacy Amp. That to me is Just like Pyramid in my view.
I wnet to the flee market today to look at what they had.
These amps I never heard of like one was ken somthing (Not Kenwood) and this other name I forgot
But i was checking 5 channel amps there is this one on e-bay
5 channel 1,200 watt Boss Mosfet Car amp RT945 right now at 2:53am it is set at 200$ Canadian is that a good Amp.?
Anyhow guy will check this place out tomorow night after I go see the movie The Day After Tomorow.
What is funny about me haveing a low budget system in my car is that It is the oposite in my living room where I have high end stuff. the hole Home theater stuff. It took four year to come to what it is now, and a lot of $$$$$ Plus now I am thinking of Getting a New TV in the Future like a DPL Screen Awsome color and also it is the 16:9 ratio I like.
see ya
uochronos on 05/30/2004 03:20:59
from what little first hand aexperience i have with boss amps and what i ahve heard they are not a high end amp. if you know the model i could help more.
infinity are a very nice speakers a bit on the spendy side though if not shopped around in my opinion.
your home audio system sound a bit like my car i have spent 2 years building my car syustem one high end component at a time and am very proud of the out come 90% of which was goten from direction here.
swez on 05/30/2004 12:06:21
PPI (Precision Power) is a fine amp and they make quality gear. Trouble is, not cheap... unless you have a contact that can sell them at just over cost.
The other amps mentioned... Pyle, Pyramid, Boss, Legacy are all in the * & ** category of quality. The upper end amps in the line are better... but for a few more $$'s why not buy quality gear. Shopping hard, is the key to low budget, high quality gear. Most of us are very much bargain hunters as well.
Try to think about your end goal here. Then work back from that, one step at a time. As budget permits... add some good gear. In time, you will have a first rate car audio system that will not break the piggy bank. (just as you did in your HT system)
Swez
0u1lowwd2 on 05/31/2004 01:34:25
Hello guys.
So I did something today. I went to the store where I bought My jl audio Sub. and I Baught another one now I got 2 of them. yup. from what I am told it is a better ballanced sound. It does make sence in a way but at least that is out of the way because I was really wondering all week if it was a good enough just one sub then today I heard the Differance. Although it might not be a big differance it just sounded better.
Now is that I have to reconfigure my enclosure. I could use the box I have but I am worried that it might not give me the sound qualitiy I want.
The way my box is made Something called "Dual Band Pass" or something like that. The 2 Subs. face each other at a 90 deg. angle and a plexy glass enclosing the hole so you can see the two subs. Also on the front side of the box there is ported holes on each side. There is these two plastic tubes inside not 5 inches long. But the Problem is that the Holes are 4" Dia. way to much.
Now my evil genius is thinking lets be cheap on this you are a machinist you know how to work with presision tools take out the front of the box take out part of the wood inside where the Subs are bolted. Just take out material enough to leave room for the back of the Sub. reenforce the structure inside. then put a new front plate 3/4" to an 1"thick. glue it on, and nail it on. then put that carpet thing over it. Now the big Question is:
To Port or Not to Port?
In the JL Audio website they say to make the enclosure much bigger for ported Wha I have now would not cover there specs.
But when I go to the Stores I see these Boxes there not even big enough for a sealed box and there still ported. So the people who make these Enclosures (Boxes). do they know what there doing??
Ok lets try this I will wright down the specs of the Subs I have.
and if you can tell me how big I should have my box made.
Now as I told you if you are familiar with VW Jetta III generation. You know the trunk is Big and deep. Ex. You can have you and your girlfriend in that trunk and have a good time with plenty of manuvering.
so here are the specs.
(I don't know what certain terms mean so if you do not mind explaining them to me.)
My Subs are 10W0-4
Free Air Resonance (Fs) : 24.2Hz
Electical "Q" (Qes) : 0.420
Mechanical "Q" (Qms) : 8.560
Total Speaker "Q" (Qts) : 0.400
Equiv. Compliance (Vas) : 2.45 ft-cu. or 69.4 litres
One-Way, Linear Excursion (Xmax)* : 0.340" or 8.6mm
Efficiency ( IW / lm )** : 85.5dB
Effective Piston Area (Sd) : 54.7"-sq.. 0.0353m-sq.
DC Resistence (Re)*** : 3.86ohmes
Nominal Impedance : 4ohmes
Power Handling (continous) : 125W
Mounting Depth : 5.375in 137mm
Mounting Hole Dia. : 9.125" 232mm
Driver Displacement : 0.050 ft-cu 1.4 litres
* Xmax specifications are derived via one-way voice coil overhang method with no correction factors applied.
** Efficency ( IW / lm ) is not an accurate indicator of a subwoofer's output capability and should not be used as a comparision to other subwoofers to determine which one is "louder".
***All other specifications remain the same.
I wrote this exacly how it is written in the manual i have.
So I hope this can be of help to which size I should be making this box.
Oh yeah one more thing should I divide the middle part of the Box to seperate both Subs or should all Vibration move freely in side the hole box.
Thank you
Will be back tomorrow for some insight.
Speaking of Tomorrow I went to see The Day After Tomorrow.
Great special effects I mean Wow But Thats It.
See ya.
uochronos on 05/31/2004 02:05:47
someone was very busy today hehe.
as for a second sub its more a choice of taste alot of people like 2 subs i personaly prefer one for space reasons but it well add 3db of volume.
as for ported or sealed thats about your personaly tastes and goal. a sealed enclosure is very responsive and great for SQ(sound quality) as for ported it well net you 3db more volume per sub and well still be good on sq just not quite as resxponsive. also ported well be a bit better at the really low notes.
swez on 05/31/2004 08:04:53
Eric,
You are working too hard on the tech data for these subs. The web site has all that and we just cut & paste as needed.... or provide a web addy for details: www.jlaudio.com/
This sub is suitable for sealed or ported enclosures. The .pdf file has details on both enclosure recommedations and all specs too:
Sealed = 0.75 cf/sub (21.2 l)
Ported = 1.25 cf/sub (35.4 l) port = 3" dia, x 14.7" (76mm x 373mm)
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/pdfs/10_12_15W0_MAN.pdf
If you are that handy, (a Machinist) why not have the fun of building your own spec enclosure and sell the BP w/o subs for as much as you can? Depending on the net internal air volume available, it could be modified to use as sealed or ported.
The 4th Order Band Pass enclosure you mentioned, is one of the most efficient sub enclosure designs to get high bass SPL. When made to specs of a given sub, they do pretty well at making lots of noise. But there are drawbacks too. If made improperly, the subs can be trashed in short order and you'd never hear it until they die.
Sealed or Ported??? Depends on space available, type of music you like and personal preferences. Ported is more efficient and you get a few extra dB of SPL near tuning freq. Sealed sounds smoother, better transient response (quick cone actions) in a small package.
In either case, it is a good idea to use a divider board so that each sub has it's own air chamber. This board also provides rigidity to the box and keeps it from flexing with high SPL bass.
Now, you have 2 subs now... the amp choices have just changed. You can now use a Class D sub amp to power these puppies. That amp will need to be stable at 2 ohms & can put out 300 - 400 RMS @ 2 ohms. Class D is a very efficient amp design (~90% eff.) for sub applications.
Generally, MONO amps are less cost than a two channel amps of same power rating and more efficient use of power. A 2 channel amp is only ~60% efficient. For every 100 watts the amp consumes, you get 60 watts out to the sub. That's why Class D (or Class T) amps are prefered.
OK, enough to chew on for now. If you care to, measure the outer dimensions of that BP box you have now. If it is close to the dimensions of either dual sealed or ported, can hack it apart and use the shell. Measure the height, width, depth and board thickness. I'll crunch a few numbers and see if it can be used.
Swez
0u1lowwd2 on 05/31/2004 23:51:10
Hello Guys I am really sorry to bother you with all these questions.
As an ex Machinist, (I am a Draftsman now). I am very maticulous about my work And I love pressision, You must Understand once that is in you it is in you. For example. My wife thinks i am insane. Because When I put a Picture frame I use a level indicator and put marks on the wall for the frame to be exacly the same distance from the sealing at both ends. I would say the frame is about .010" off. Well my son moved it a couple of times.... Well you know where I am coming from.
All this to tell you thanks a whole bunch you guy have been great in helping me with this situation.
Swez my box is 28-1/8"width x 12"high x 16-1/8"dp.
Now the Fudged up part is, and i am not crazy about this.
The front and back are like 1-1/8thk and the sides are 5/8 thk.
And that wood is that type MDF I beleive like glued wood chips.
I think personally it is a good size box.
Now everybody has so many opinions on this. And personally it drives me nuts. Where should you point the sub. some told me directly to your seats. some told me striaght to where you open the trunk. some say to the sides.
Personally This is what I am thinking of doing.
Make the box from my old one remove the hole front.
Design a new one with a twist.
Have the subs Center to Center Distance of between 13" to 14" Have them Angled away from each other at 10 to 12deg.
If i send them both in there corners. it might make a diferance in sound. I will divided the Middle of the Box As you said have there own Air Chamber.
Now here is a crazy idea I have not sure if it would work. Might sound insane.
So you got the Divider seperating the chamber right leave about 2" from the front.
Now on each side of the divider add a piece of wood touching the front of the Box and leaving about a 1/4" in the Back.
In the Front it would give an ilussion of one ported slit very small not big 1/2".
Also this will renforce the box. Now I don't know if it would Sound good.
You guys I don't know how much experience you have in this if you ever heard of this. befor or is it Nuts.
Anyhow let me know what you think
Oh yeah also Grounding the Amp.
Big Question.
I am not To Crazy about removing paint and drilling a hole in my trunk. I don't mind removing paint in a remote place but a hole no way. I have this Magnet out of a Hardrive, and if you put that sucker at least 1/4" near the fridge it will go and hit it with a SLAM!!Hardrive Magnets are Strong. You see where i am getting at ?.
If I would Hold the ground with a Magnet would that do some damage to the Amp.
A frend and I were Debating it today.
PS if you have a busted p.c. somwhere open up the hardrive and take out those magnets. it will feel like as if something is bolted and that you forgot to remove a screw, but you did not. it is the magnets facing another one and they are strong suckers.
Thanks guys.
uochronos on 06/1/2004 02:14:20
the magnet would not damage the amp unless it was very close to the amp. after all i have my amp mounted to my box with a 180oz of magnets 6 inches from it... the subs being the magnets however this would not work as well as a secure screw or bolt. alot of people use the seat belt bolt. or some other bracket that is already in place as to not have to dril another hole. i myself used one of the bolts holding down my rear seats in my truck.
as for pointing the subs this is a subject of alot of debate. pointing them right at the seat makes little sense to me because they cant move air then. in cars i always butt them up against the seat pointing towards the trunk lid. this seems to net the most response and clean sound. however you can move them about trying differnt locatiosn and fidning what sounds best to you.
as for the box design you mentioned i'm assumeing you mean you would be porting each sub. the thing here is the subs have to be ported to the corect frequency if the ports are too large the subs well over extend themselve and self destruct on you. if the port is to small you well not get the right sound out of it at all. so thats important to figure out the frequency they need to be ported at then figure out what dimensions you need, there is a very good DIY article in the archives about ported enclosures.
hope this helped a bit.
~chronos
swez on 06/1/2004 11:09:21
OK, ran some numbers and this present enclosure will net out to ~2.3 cf internally when all the guts are removed. A bit too small for porting, a hair too large for sealed... but with some angled face mods, you can get there sealed.
As for material to use, yes... MDF is the prefered material in sub enclosures. (NOT REGULAR PARTICLE BOARD OR OSB) For upscale box designs, Baltic Birch plywood is excellent... but very expensive.
OK, your present subs require 0.75 cf per sub of air space. There is a +/-10% fudge factor here, so you can go a bit over or under that spec and still have very good bass performance. Once you gut the box so that only sides, top, bottom and back are there, then finding center point and installing a divider panel is next. Can use 5/8 - 3/4" MDF there and 3/4" MDF for sub baffle panels. The angle you choose will help zero in on the target internal air space. You will have to remove the ports and cap off the holes as well. Bondo works well as a filler.
Since you are probably used to working in Metric and American measuring standard, I assume you know the conversion factors.
1 ft^3 = 28.32 Liters
1" = 25.4 mm
Finally, this is not rocket science or die making grade tolerances. There is room for marginal deviations and still obtain excellent results. Do you drive others nuts with your pursuits in precise measuring? Having a very detailed thinking process is excellent for many things in life. Swez is more of a "Big Picture" personality with a good eye for details as well. (a real odd-ball combination huh?) LOL
Comments?
Swez
0u1lowwd2 on 06/1/2004 22:10:57
Hello guys
I have decided to go Sealed I got an e-mail from JL audio and they said that my current enclosure size is to small for to be Ported and that Sealed would be Fine Just like Swez says. (Well Swez said It is a bit big for Sealed. But Like I said I will give some angle and divide the chamber with a thick wood and reenforce the Enclosure even more and get that Pillow Stuffing Stuff...
I was Wondering If I can put some Dynamat in my trunk or is it a waste of money. Actually how would Dynamat afect the Subs if you put it inside the enclosure.
http://www.dynamat.com/home.htm
Oh I got a question WHat is the Deal with the hugh capacitor some people use with there Systems.
As for an Amp. I got in Mind PPI or Rockford Fosgate Mono.
what you think About that?
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