Here's the first of what will be many questions about subs. My son currently has a AudioBahn 4x50w running the four speaker sets (front and back) so I'm figuring he'll want about 150-200w worth of sub and amp. Good/Bad assumption? He's not looking to thump his neighbor but to get a well balanced system. Second question is about enclosures. Since we are not all that good at woodworking and lack the area to do it he will be buying an enclosure. What are the thoughts on enclosure types. He's pretty much decided on 2x something, probably 2x10's. I'm of the opinion that a ported enclosure is the way to go based on my home theater experience but with a box this small and 2 10's in it is a sealed enclosure a better idea. He's looking at a Q-Logic box at Crutchfiel that fires down. That's what my setup is at home but it's got 4 feet of transmiddion line behind it huffing through 3 tuned ports so it's not apples to apples. Is there any benefit to the down firing, sealed enclosure aside from protecting the drivers. And last question for now, aside from the convienence of moving the box in and out is there any problem hanging the amps on the box. Seems awfully convienent to me but I wonder about the vibration.
Replies (14)
Pinch on 05/20/2004 14:46:18
My experience with enclosures has taught me to base which type to purchase/build on what kind of music you listen to and what you hope to hear when you listen to that kind of music. Example: If you listen to a lot of hip-hop and R&B, and hope to get a chest thumping when you listen to it, a ported or band-pass type may be the way to go depending on how much you like bass. If you listen to jazz and techno on the other hand, and want a responsive sub that can handle a double bass drum on occasion a sealed enclosure may be the way to go.
Here is how I break it down.
Sealed
Pros: Tight response. Clean sounding. Good for fast bass rhythms. Subs can handle rated power all day without breakin a sweat.
Cons: Lacking on the real lows since acoustic suspension prevents full excursion (box must be larger in volume to compensate for this). Sometimes sounds too punchy.
Ported
Pros: Less suspension on the sub cone means it can move more = more bass. Box doesn't have to be huge and you'll still get decent lows (usually better than a sealed enclosure).
Cons: Improperly tuned ports lead to "port noise" which is annoying. Typically not as clean sounding as a sealed box.
Band-Pass
Pros: Handles a lot of power. Really loud/Plenty of bass.
Cons: Typically the least clean sounding. Sometimes overpowers mids/highs. Decreases sub life.
There is a lot more to this topic for sure. Having a good enclosure can make a good sub sound great (the reverse is also true: a bad enclosure can make a great sub sound poorly). You mentioned that you aren't good with woodworking, but just ponder this. If you buy a q-logic dual 10" enclosure from a major retail store, count on spending $80-$100 for a box designed to fit a wide variety of subs. A sheet of 3/4" mdf plywood is like $24, a tube liquid nails is like $6, and a box of screws is like $5. If you purchase a sub or pair of subs, it is likely the manufacturer will provide you with the recommended enclosure volume. All you really need to know beyond that is: if it's not supposed to be a port seal it well, and straight cuts look better than wavy ones. :) When you're done you'll have a box designed to the specs of your subs (which will make them sound better and last longer), that you can say you made yourself. Don't be intimidated by the idea (you're not building an entertainment center to match your china hutch after all). Also, most of the people on this forum are really cool, and glad to walk you through this process.
Didn't mean to tell you what to do there, I just hate to sell people short :).
cplkittle on 05/20/2004 17:23:27
Transmission lines are geared more for getting lower bass from smaller drivers (6" and below). They work well in this area because the smaller the driver, generally, the more accurate it is (the quicker it responds). With larger drivers in TL enclosures they tend to get muddy. The bass is there and it is low, deep, and soft, but it is usually 90degrees out of phase from the driver. This leads to sloppy or muddy sounding bass.
Downfiring boxes in my opinion are not all they are hyped up to be. I would definitely not recommend a sealed downfire box in any case. A downfiring enclosure can help with prevention of overexcursion to an extent in a ported enclosure, but at the expense of some cancellation (sound waves reflecting directly back onto the cone).
10" subs obviously will not pick up the lows like a 12 or a 15 will. However, they are more accurate. finding the right size box can be tricky at times. since they already have the tight accurate traits, this can be overexaggerated (as pinch mentioned) in too small of a sealed enclosure.
Ported enclosures should be designed for the sub. If you go this route you are gaining 3db (double the volume if designed right) plus more low end. ie one ported 10 = 2 sealed 10's in SPL.
Back to the facts at hand. with the mids/highs on a 50/4 amp, I would safely assume that you could run in the neighborhood of 500-600watts for the bass. If it were me, I would go with a good brand 12" sub capable of 400-600watts in a ported box (tuned to 40-45Hz). This should give you a good balance of lows compared to mids/highs. I highly recommend Alpine because of their quality and reputation as well as cost. Also keep in mind that even though THD is not as audible in the bass department, a clean amplifier is well worth the money.
In this business, you honestly get what you pay for.
swez on 05/20/2004 19:34:58
Well stated points guys and very good detail. It really boils down to how much bass he wants and is willing to pay for.
As for subs, a pair of good 10's in a well matched enclosure (sealed) is a good all around performer. Not as much SPL as a tuned port or bandpass box, but very good transient response, accurate bass and can get low as well... it's all in the sub/box combination. For most car audio applications, 35-40 Hz., is possible and at reasonable SPL due to cabin gain effects of car acoustics. To preserve cargo space and reduce costs, a single 12" sub will do very well here too.
As for power, figure at least 250-300 RMS of amping power. A Class D amp is best for bass applications as it is very efficient on power. (typ., 90% efficiency) These amps are designed specifically for bass only applications. Also, most Class D MONO amps will do a 2 ohm load. A few can even manage a 1 ohm load. Since he has a smaller Import, the ALT is generally modest and a large amp would mean beefing up the electricals to feed a larger sub amp.
Subs: Alpine & Infinity are very good SQ/SPL subs. They come in single and dual voiced coil models. If using a Class D MONO amp, a single 12", 4+4 DVC will net 2 or 8 ohms, depending on wiring. Both brands have subs that will take 300 RMS or more in a single sub.
If Buffalo Jr., really wants 2x10's, shoot for either a pair of single coil 4 ohm subs or a pair of 2+2 ohm dual coil subs. Alpine makes 2+2's, but Infinity does not at the moment. He'd have to use 4 ohm single coils here.
Yes, many do mount amps on the sub enclosure. Vibration is not a problem in better made boxes. A 3/4" MDF panel is pretty stiff and does not vibrate too badly in moderate SPL applications. Just makes the box a bit heavier to move/remove. Have to shut off the power to main power feed line by pulling the fuse near BAT.
Finally, if you want to buy a very well made enclosure, consider Sub Zone. Very well made, usually a bit cheaper cost than Q'Logics too. They have many styles and sizes to fit most subs on the market today.
http://www.thezeb.com/SubZone.aspx?Results=1&CategoryID=2&Manufacturer=39
Swez
sawyer16v on 05/21/2004 02:40:35
While at crutchfield.com maybe check out non-powered sub/box packages. I like the idea of the speaker manufacturer matching the sub and box rather than picking a random box that you think will work. Kicker, Alpine, Bazooka for under $200. I think mounting the amp to the box is a fine idea, definitely the easiest way to go. Have you played with the idea of bridging the rear channels of the Audiobahn to the sub and running the rear fill off the HU? Don't know anything bout subs firing down in a trunk but this site has good info on placement --- http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html
Good Luck
Buffalo on 06/1/2004 08:40:26
Hi guys,
We are just back from sunny and hot Disney World. Been there 10 days and glad to be home. He's really hot on the subs noe. In fact last night he ordered the subs and an amp. Not excatly what you all recommended so I wanted to check to see if we were OK or not. The subs are Infinity Kappa perfect 12.1d's with 4 ohm DVC's. The amp is a AudioBahn A8000T which is rated at 400W RMSx1 at 4 ohms or 800W RMSx1 at 2 ohms. This is a class AB amp. The other one he was looking at was a Kicker KX400.1 which is a class D amp rated at 200W RMSx1 at 4ohms or 400W RMS at 2 ohms. Can we make what he bought work or should we put a hold on it and rethink? the Infinity's are also available in a single coil 4 ohm flavor. Also the amp has dual 30 AMP fuses and the AudioBahn we just put in has Dual 20 AMP fuses so I assume we need to take a look at his altenator and see if it needs upgrading. Any ideas on where you get upgraded alternators and does nayone know if Honda has factory units. The car is under warrenty and I'd rather keep it that way.
swez on 06/1/2004 10:06:31
The sub amp is fine and will match his 4 channel amp. However, the sub choice (Perfect 12.1d) is going to leave 50% of the amps' power unused. If he uses a pair of Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1's, this is a very good match and the sub amp will give him full power to these subs when wired in parallel to amp. Same power handling as the 12.1d's, but not a DVC. The Perfect 12.1 is a single coil, 4 ohm version.
As for power consumption issues... the pair will pull close to 100 amperes of current at full load. Under moderately loud listening conditions, more like 60-80 amperes of draw.. Not sure on the ampere rating of the Civics' ALT. Probably about 70-80 amperes max output. That means light dimming and other electrical issues are pending if you remain with a stock ALT/BAT and wiring.
Can you confirm the ALT output figures for this model and look at the CCA ratings for the present battery? Yes, there are ways to beat the light dimming issues. But let's see what you have to work with presently.
Swez
Buffalo on 06/1/2004 12:28:47
Swez,
Thanks for the timely response and because of it I was able to change the 12.1d's to 12.1's. I'll dig up the numbers you asked for. I assume the user's manual should have the alternator rating and would the CCA rating be on the batt itself? Another thing I noticed on the amp is that it needs 4 ga wiring. We've got a 4 ga going back to the trunk and into a 4ga/8ga fused distribution block. How are we to handle the power wiring for this?
Buffalo
swez on 06/1/2004 12:51:09
If your D-block has multiple #8 outs and only one #4 input, you can gang a pair of #8's off the D-dlock to feed the sub amp. (dual #8's carry the same current as a single #4 wire)
If you don't have enough #8 holes in this D-block, may have to reconfigure it by either drilling and tapping a new port for an extra #4 line or get a different D-block. (2x #4, 2-4 #8's) OR..you can also locate a hex head cap screw of same size and thread pitch, add an "eye" connector to #4 wire for amp and use that cap screw for both #4 in and outputs. The cap screw will have to be a tad longer to accomodate both #4 wires. (can you visualize this modification?)
Good that you were able to change the sub order. This will work better that a pair of DVC's for this amp. Buffalo Jr. is getting ahead of the game huh?
As for finding out the CCA rating... yes, usually on the battery sticker. About the ALT rating, may have to call the Dealership or autoparts store to determine what stock ALT options are common to this car. They will have that detail on hand so you won't have to dig for it.
Finally, with this larger sub amp, a larger "current buffer" may be in order. Basically, a larger CCA rated battery will usually do the job. Something on the order of an 800 - 950 CCA rated BAT. This is a lot cheaper/easier than a 150A ALT upgrade and should not void the warrantee. The other items to modify would be the ALT/BAT power wire to a #4 gage line, a #4 ground from BAT to body and double up on the braided grounding strap from the engine block to body ground.
These minor upgrades should allow more efficient current flow from ALT to BAT to electrical system in general.
Swez
Buffalo on 06/7/2004 10:03:44
Thanks to everybody, especially Swez.
We should be recieving the replacement subs this week so it's time for the next round of questions. The two sealed boxes that my son is looking at on the ZEB site are .88cf and 1.4cf per chamber. The 1.4cf one will just barely fit if in fact it does fit so we may be taking a chance ordering it. From what I know of sub enclosures for home the theater the 1.4cf box will give him a little bit lower extention while producing a slightly less tight bass. and the .88cf would be the opposite, a little tighter with at slightly higher roll off. The Infinity subs recommend 1cf for a sealed enclosure so we are right between the mark. I would like to have the bigger box for more amp and DB mounting room but being a bass player for many years tight bass to me is everything so I am on the fence. Comments?
Second item. From what I've read and what has been said here we should be wiring the two subs to the single speaker output on the AudioBahn in parallel. the speakers are SVC 4ohm so this will present a 2 ohm load to the amp correct? Which means we should be able to draw up to 800 watts from the amp. Just trying to get my numbers in line. From what I understand the AudioBahn is 2 ohm stable. Again Comments?
Last one for Swez. So from what you said about the current buffer we may be able to solve the problem (if in fact it turns out there is one) by putting in a beefier battery and rewrking some of the wiring? What I'm planning on doing is getting everything hooked up and then do the light dimming check to see if there is in fact a problem. Anyone have any good suggestions on source material to test the current draw for low notes?
Thanks again to everyone for all the help.
Buffalo
swez on 06/7/2004 11:46:34
Either enclosure will work in this application and as you stated, the 0.88 ft^3 enclosure will yield tight bass and moderate deep low bass. On the other end of the spectrum, the 1.4 ft^3 enclosure will yield plenty of deep lows, but not much punch. Depends on his taste in music and overall space to install either enclosure.
One thing to consider here, the Perfect has a large basket/magnet assy. The displacement of this sub, loaded in the box, will reduce the interior air space by the amount the sub displaces. The displacement number may be noted in the data sheet. I did not find that data on the Infinity Perfect product sheet, but can estimate this sub displaces about 225-250 in^3 (~0.150 ft^3) per sub. You will need to subtract that amount from the internal enclosure airspace volume dimensions. If you have any questions, call/e-mail Infinity Tech for specific displacement numbers on this sub.
http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner%27s%20
Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%2012%20om.pdf
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As for wiring, yes... parallel wire each sub for a 2 ohm net load, then wire out from box to amp. Alt: Can wire each sub, and connect both wire set to amp outputs for same net effect.
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As for light dimming issues, you will know if that is an issue once all amps are hooked up and tweaked to optimal performance. Since this is a smaller vehicle, I would guess the ALT is somewhere in the 70-80A., output range and the stock BAT will be ~550 CCA.
You can verify the ALT output and BAT health by going to AutoZone. (or other good parts stores) They can test your ALT/BAT output capacities for free and guide you on upgrades if/as needed. The trick is to measure the battery cage and determine how much space you have for a larger BAT.
NOTE: The ALT output will be low at lower RPM's. As the engine revs to ~1800 RPM, the ALT will put out more amperes as system demands. Adding larger wires to ALT/BAT, BAT/GND are easy to do and you may find #4 wire kits that will drop right in with minimal effort on your part.
An 800+ CCA BAT should help a lot to feed amps and keep the rest of the electrical system supplied with enough "juice". If you still get some light dimming on large bass hits, your last resort is to upgrade the ALT to a HO version. There are suppliers out there that have these HO ALTs off the shelf. Not cheap once you get past the 150A., versions. But can deal with that issue if it comes up.
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Finally, you can "cheat a bit" for now, by installing lower rated fuses in the amps or at the BAT fuse. If the fuse(s) blow, dial up the gain to reduce current draw from the amp(s). This will protect your ALT from trying to feed more current than it is able, to the amps.
Comments?
Swez
PS This last trick is a monitor to you that Jr. Buffalo is getting a bit SPL happy in his listening habits. Once the amps get past a fused limit, it will blow. Your que to say... "Uhmmmm, getting a bit carried away with the volume control there son".
PSS I too was a bass player back in the mid-70's-early 80's. I liked both punch and deep end bass as well. Eventually opted for a Stereo 4001 Rick bass guitar, dual 15's and a pair of 10's... bi-amped. Used the vernerable Ampeg SVT for the 15's and a smaller amp for the 10's. The 10's were a great practice amp/woofer combo. The SVT/dual 15's were added for live performances. Yeah, I knocked a few things off the walls upstairs and was banished to the garage to practice in short order. I miss playing too.... been a long time!
Buffalo on 06/7/2004 12:23:42
Swez,
Thanks, you bring back memories. I played professionally in this area to earn extra cash. We were Heavy metal thunder all the way. Very much into Blue Oyster Cult, Who and the like. In the early days I used to Acoustic heads (don't remember the model numbers) doing about 200w each (lofty numbers in those days) coupled to two Sun dual 15 Folded horn enclosures. by the time it was over I had four of the Acoustics and four of the Suns. Often could only use 2 of the Suns do to stage space at the bars we played but that was usually enough. I'm paying for it today with my hearing but I sure did enjoyit then
swez on 06/8/2004 10:05:10
Hummmm, I remember those Acoustic Heads (5 band EQ if I recall rightly) and the folded horn subs. Tried a few and just could not get used to the "honkiness" of the upper bass from that enclosure design. They were very good at throwing bass a long way off stage and into the room... but for the stage bass sound, always prefered sealed or ported systems.
Also have one Ampeg 6 x 10" sealed enclosures. Not a bad stage sound, but no real thunder with them either. (low efficiency drivers) The dual ported 15's sounded very good on stage and in the room too.
Yes, The SVT Head was only 300 RMS, weighed ~90 lbs. My back hurts... just thinking about how we used to lug heavy gear up and down stairs. Gee... was I ever really that young and strong enough to lug all that junk all over town? Seems so long ago huh?
Finally, was into Hard Rock and some Heavy Metal than too. Stones, Queen, BTO, Kiss, Bowie, Seager, Grand Funk, Deep Purple and lots of top 40. Traveled a bit as a "Glitter Rock" (makeup and costumes)band for a time too. "The Rockin' Kansas City Gramaws"... if you can believe a name like that, on a marquee??? Aww heck... was young, a bit too cocky for my own good... but loved to play music. Come to think of it... meeting "chicks" was a lot easier then too... hehe
Thanks for taking me back down memory lane.... and you?
Swez
Buffalo on 06/8/2004 12:25:52
Swez,
I was a Fender Precision man and used to use the high treble metallic sound a lot so the folded horns were great. Gave me the edge I was looking for but could fill the bottom a bit also. Your right about the stage sound though. I was always trying to fiddle with the EQ's and our sound man would always come up afterward and chenge things back and tell me to stop messing around. I once heard our lead play my bass from the back of a big hall and it sounded completely different from the stage sound so I learned to leave things alone. Talk about haulin' stuff our keyboard guy's prize possesion was a Hammond B3 and rotary cabinet that we had to haul around. Made the rest of our stuff seem paltry. Luckily we had a deal with a local U-haul place for trucks and for the last three years we played mostly week or more stints in clubs so we didn't have the nightly grind. We were. for most of the time, Maxwell Parachute "Good to the Last Drop" was the slogan and the graphic was a parachute with a coffee cup on the end and a drop coming out. Top that for corny. Later changed to Rigel thank god. Never did the glitter Rock thing but I did do a stint in a 14 piece soul band complete with Temptations style singers out front. Yellow brocade tuxs and all. Ahh the lost years.........
swez on 06/8/2004 20:11:22
Oh what colorful lives we have lead huh? Hammond B3 was a monster to lug around. I remember them as being "THE THING" in keyboards back then. Nothing sounded better than a B-3.
The Fender Rhodes piano was a real clunker in my books for a stage piano... but some made it sound good in a studio environment. The F-Precision was my first bass guitar. I loved the deep tones and how they thundered when EQ that way. The Rickenbacker I eventually went to, was a 2 channel bass setup. Had a jack for MONO and either F/R or F&R pickups, depending on the amp(s) used. Tried the RotoSound strings like John Entwhistle used. (The Who) and really liked that raw, raspy funk bass or could mellow it out and sound more like a Fender P-Bass. Did you ever try a fretless bass?
Tried a Jazz band ensamble, Big Bands of the 40's and several other styles of bands as well. It was a blast. Since I was in Jr. High, I took up music and learned several instruments. Would like to get a nice keyboard and play around with that for a while too... but who has the time anymore???
Another day in "Memory Lane".... thanks for the trip back to simpler times. We seem to have a kindered spirit about life.. neat huh!
Swez
Replies (14)
Pinch on 05/20/2004 14:46:18
My experience with enclosures has taught me to base which type to purchase/build on what kind of music you listen to and what you hope to hear when you listen to that kind of music. Example: If you listen to a lot of hip-hop and R&B, and hope to get a chest thumping when you listen to it, a ported or band-pass type may be the way to go depending on how much you like bass. If you listen to jazz and techno on the other hand, and want a responsive sub that can handle a double bass drum on occasion a sealed enclosure may be the way to go.
Here is how I break it down.
Sealed
Pros: Tight response. Clean sounding. Good for fast bass rhythms. Subs can handle rated power all day without breakin a sweat.
Cons: Lacking on the real lows since acoustic suspension prevents full excursion (box must be larger in volume to compensate for this). Sometimes sounds too punchy.
Ported
Pros: Less suspension on the sub cone means it can move more = more bass. Box doesn't have to be huge and you'll still get decent lows (usually better than a sealed enclosure).
Cons: Improperly tuned ports lead to "port noise" which is annoying. Typically not as clean sounding as a sealed box.
Band-Pass
Pros: Handles a lot of power. Really loud/Plenty of bass.
Cons: Typically the least clean sounding. Sometimes overpowers mids/highs. Decreases sub life.
There is a lot more to this topic for sure. Having a good enclosure can make a good sub sound great (the reverse is also true: a bad enclosure can make a great sub sound poorly). You mentioned that you aren't good with woodworking, but just ponder this. If you buy a q-logic dual 10" enclosure from a major retail store, count on spending $80-$100 for a box designed to fit a wide variety of subs. A sheet of 3/4" mdf plywood is like $24, a tube liquid nails is like $6, and a box of screws is like $5. If you purchase a sub or pair of subs, it is likely the manufacturer will provide you with the recommended enclosure volume. All you really need to know beyond that is: if it's not supposed to be a port seal it well, and straight cuts look better than wavy ones. :) When you're done you'll have a box designed to the specs of your subs (which will make them sound better and last longer), that you can say you made yourself. Don't be intimidated by the idea (you're not building an entertainment center to match your china hutch after all). Also, most of the people on this forum are really cool, and glad to walk you through this process.
Didn't mean to tell you what to do there, I just hate to sell people short :).
cplkittle on 05/20/2004 17:23:27
Transmission lines are geared more for getting lower bass from smaller drivers (6" and below). They work well in this area because the smaller the driver, generally, the more accurate it is (the quicker it responds). With larger drivers in TL enclosures they tend to get muddy. The bass is there and it is low, deep, and soft, but it is usually 90degrees out of phase from the driver. This leads to sloppy or muddy sounding bass.
Downfiring boxes in my opinion are not all they are hyped up to be. I would definitely not recommend a sealed downfire box in any case. A downfiring enclosure can help with prevention of overexcursion to an extent in a ported enclosure, but at the expense of some cancellation (sound waves reflecting directly back onto the cone).
10" subs obviously will not pick up the lows like a 12 or a 15 will. However, they are more accurate. finding the right size box can be tricky at times. since they already have the tight accurate traits, this can be overexaggerated (as pinch mentioned) in too small of a sealed enclosure.
Ported enclosures should be designed for the sub. If you go this route you are gaining 3db (double the volume if designed right) plus more low end. ie one ported 10 = 2 sealed 10's in SPL.
Back to the facts at hand. with the mids/highs on a 50/4 amp, I would safely assume that you could run in the neighborhood of 500-600watts for the bass. If it were me, I would go with a good brand 12" sub capable of 400-600watts in a ported box (tuned to 40-45Hz). This should give you a good balance of lows compared to mids/highs. I highly recommend Alpine because of their quality and reputation as well as cost. Also keep in mind that even though THD is not as audible in the bass department, a clean amplifier is well worth the money.
In this business, you honestly get what you pay for.
swez on 05/20/2004 19:34:58
Well stated points guys and very good detail. It really boils down to how much bass he wants and is willing to pay for.
As for subs, a pair of good 10's in a well matched enclosure (sealed) is a good all around performer. Not as much SPL as a tuned port or bandpass box, but very good transient response, accurate bass and can get low as well... it's all in the sub/box combination. For most car audio applications, 35-40 Hz., is possible and at reasonable SPL due to cabin gain effects of car acoustics. To preserve cargo space and reduce costs, a single 12" sub will do very well here too.
As for power, figure at least 250-300 RMS of amping power. A Class D amp is best for bass applications as it is very efficient on power. (typ., 90% efficiency) These amps are designed specifically for bass only applications. Also, most Class D MONO amps will do a 2 ohm load. A few can even manage a 1 ohm load. Since he has a smaller Import, the ALT is generally modest and a large amp would mean beefing up the electricals to feed a larger sub amp.
Subs: Alpine & Infinity are very good SQ/SPL subs. They come in single and dual voiced coil models. If using a Class D MONO amp, a single 12", 4+4 DVC will net 2 or 8 ohms, depending on wiring. Both brands have subs that will take 300 RMS or more in a single sub.
If Buffalo Jr., really wants 2x10's, shoot for either a pair of single coil 4 ohm subs or a pair of 2+2 ohm dual coil subs. Alpine makes 2+2's, but Infinity does not at the moment. He'd have to use 4 ohm single coils here.
Yes, many do mount amps on the sub enclosure. Vibration is not a problem in better made boxes. A 3/4" MDF panel is pretty stiff and does not vibrate too badly in moderate SPL applications. Just makes the box a bit heavier to move/remove. Have to shut off the power to main power feed line by pulling the fuse near BAT.
Finally, if you want to buy a very well made enclosure, consider Sub Zone. Very well made, usually a bit cheaper cost than Q'Logics too. They have many styles and sizes to fit most subs on the market today.
http://www.thezeb.com/SubZone.aspx?Results=1&CategoryID=2&Manufacturer=39
Swez
sawyer16v on 05/21/2004 02:40:35
While at crutchfield.com maybe check out non-powered sub/box packages. I like the idea of the speaker manufacturer matching the sub and box rather than picking a random box that you think will work. Kicker, Alpine, Bazooka for under $200. I think mounting the amp to the box is a fine idea, definitely the easiest way to go. Have you played with the idea of bridging the rear channels of the Audiobahn to the sub and running the rear fill off the HU? Don't know anything bout subs firing down in a trunk but this site has good info on placement --- http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html
Good Luck
Buffalo on 06/1/2004 08:40:26
Hi guys,
We are just back from sunny and hot Disney World. Been there 10 days and glad to be home. He's really hot on the subs noe. In fact last night he ordered the subs and an amp. Not excatly what you all recommended so I wanted to check to see if we were OK or not. The subs are Infinity Kappa perfect 12.1d's with 4 ohm DVC's. The amp is a AudioBahn A8000T which is rated at 400W RMSx1 at 4 ohms or 800W RMSx1 at 2 ohms. This is a class AB amp. The other one he was looking at was a Kicker KX400.1 which is a class D amp rated at 200W RMSx1 at 4ohms or 400W RMS at 2 ohms. Can we make what he bought work or should we put a hold on it and rethink? the Infinity's are also available in a single coil 4 ohm flavor. Also the amp has dual 30 AMP fuses and the AudioBahn we just put in has Dual 20 AMP fuses so I assume we need to take a look at his altenator and see if it needs upgrading. Any ideas on where you get upgraded alternators and does nayone know if Honda has factory units. The car is under warrenty and I'd rather keep it that way.
swez on 06/1/2004 10:06:31
The sub amp is fine and will match his 4 channel amp. However, the sub choice (Perfect 12.1d) is going to leave 50% of the amps' power unused. If he uses a pair of Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1's, this is a very good match and the sub amp will give him full power to these subs when wired in parallel to amp. Same power handling as the 12.1d's, but not a DVC. The Perfect 12.1 is a single coil, 4 ohm version.
As for power consumption issues... the pair will pull close to 100 amperes of current at full load. Under moderately loud listening conditions, more like 60-80 amperes of draw.. Not sure on the ampere rating of the Civics' ALT. Probably about 70-80 amperes max output. That means light dimming and other electrical issues are pending if you remain with a stock ALT/BAT and wiring.
Can you confirm the ALT output figures for this model and look at the CCA ratings for the present battery? Yes, there are ways to beat the light dimming issues. But let's see what you have to work with presently.
Swez
Buffalo on 06/1/2004 12:28:47
Swez,
Thanks for the timely response and because of it I was able to change the 12.1d's to 12.1's. I'll dig up the numbers you asked for. I assume the user's manual should have the alternator rating and would the CCA rating be on the batt itself? Another thing I noticed on the amp is that it needs 4 ga wiring. We've got a 4 ga going back to the trunk and into a 4ga/8ga fused distribution block. How are we to handle the power wiring for this?
Buffalo
swez on 06/1/2004 12:51:09
If your D-block has multiple #8 outs and only one #4 input, you can gang a pair of #8's off the D-dlock to feed the sub amp. (dual #8's carry the same current as a single #4 wire)
If you don't have enough #8 holes in this D-block, may have to reconfigure it by either drilling and tapping a new port for an extra #4 line or get a different D-block. (2x #4, 2-4 #8's) OR..you can also locate a hex head cap screw of same size and thread pitch, add an "eye" connector to #4 wire for amp and use that cap screw for both #4 in and outputs. The cap screw will have to be a tad longer to accomodate both #4 wires. (can you visualize this modification?)
Good that you were able to change the sub order. This will work better that a pair of DVC's for this amp. Buffalo Jr. is getting ahead of the game huh?
As for finding out the CCA rating... yes, usually on the battery sticker. About the ALT rating, may have to call the Dealership or autoparts store to determine what stock ALT options are common to this car. They will have that detail on hand so you won't have to dig for it.
Finally, with this larger sub amp, a larger "current buffer" may be in order. Basically, a larger CCA rated battery will usually do the job. Something on the order of an 800 - 950 CCA rated BAT. This is a lot cheaper/easier than a 150A ALT upgrade and should not void the warrantee. The other items to modify would be the ALT/BAT power wire to a #4 gage line, a #4 ground from BAT to body and double up on the braided grounding strap from the engine block to body ground.
These minor upgrades should allow more efficient current flow from ALT to BAT to electrical system in general.
Swez
Buffalo on 06/7/2004 10:03:44
Thanks to everybody, especially Swez.
We should be recieving the replacement subs this week so it's time for the next round of questions. The two sealed boxes that my son is looking at on the ZEB site are .88cf and 1.4cf per chamber. The 1.4cf one will just barely fit if in fact it does fit so we may be taking a chance ordering it. From what I know of sub enclosures for home the theater the 1.4cf box will give him a little bit lower extention while producing a slightly less tight bass. and the .88cf would be the opposite, a little tighter with at slightly higher roll off. The Infinity subs recommend 1cf for a sealed enclosure so we are right between the mark. I would like to have the bigger box for more amp and DB mounting room but being a bass player for many years tight bass to me is everything so I am on the fence. Comments?
Second item. From what I've read and what has been said here we should be wiring the two subs to the single speaker output on the AudioBahn in parallel. the speakers are SVC 4ohm so this will present a 2 ohm load to the amp correct? Which means we should be able to draw up to 800 watts from the amp. Just trying to get my numbers in line. From what I understand the AudioBahn is 2 ohm stable. Again Comments?
Last one for Swez. So from what you said about the current buffer we may be able to solve the problem (if in fact it turns out there is one) by putting in a beefier battery and rewrking some of the wiring? What I'm planning on doing is getting everything hooked up and then do the light dimming check to see if there is in fact a problem. Anyone have any good suggestions on source material to test the current draw for low notes?
Thanks again to everyone for all the help.
Buffalo
swez on 06/7/2004 11:46:34
Either enclosure will work in this application and as you stated, the 0.88 ft^3 enclosure will yield tight bass and moderate deep low bass. On the other end of the spectrum, the 1.4 ft^3 enclosure will yield plenty of deep lows, but not much punch. Depends on his taste in music and overall space to install either enclosure.
One thing to consider here, the Perfect has a large basket/magnet assy. The displacement of this sub, loaded in the box, will reduce the interior air space by the amount the sub displaces. The displacement number may be noted in the data sheet. I did not find that data on the Infinity Perfect product sheet, but can estimate this sub displaces about 225-250 in^3 (~0.150 ft^3) per sub. You will need to subtract that amount from the internal enclosure airspace volume dimensions. If you have any questions, call/e-mail Infinity Tech for specific displacement numbers on this sub.
http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner%27s%20
Manual/KAPPA%20PERFECT%2012%20om.pdf
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As for wiring, yes... parallel wire each sub for a 2 ohm net load, then wire out from box to amp. Alt: Can wire each sub, and connect both wire set to amp outputs for same net effect.
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As for light dimming issues, you will know if that is an issue once all amps are hooked up and tweaked to optimal performance. Since this is a smaller vehicle, I would guess the ALT is somewhere in the 70-80A., output range and the stock BAT will be ~550 CCA.
You can verify the ALT output and BAT health by going to AutoZone. (or other good parts stores) They can test your ALT/BAT output capacities for free and guide you on upgrades if/as needed. The trick is to measure the battery cage and determine how much space you have for a larger BAT.
NOTE: The ALT output will be low at lower RPM's. As the engine revs to ~1800 RPM, the ALT will put out more amperes as system demands. Adding larger wires to ALT/BAT, BAT/GND are easy to do and you may find #4 wire kits that will drop right in with minimal effort on your part.
An 800+ CCA BAT should help a lot to feed amps and keep the rest of the electrical system supplied with enough "juice". If you still get some light dimming on large bass hits, your last resort is to upgrade the ALT to a HO version. There are suppliers out there that have these HO ALTs off the shelf. Not cheap once you get past the 150A., versions. But can deal with that issue if it comes up.
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Finally, you can "cheat a bit" for now, by installing lower rated fuses in the amps or at the BAT fuse. If the fuse(s) blow, dial up the gain to reduce current draw from the amp(s). This will protect your ALT from trying to feed more current than it is able, to the amps.
Comments?
Swez
PS This last trick is a monitor to you that Jr. Buffalo is getting a bit SPL happy in his listening habits. Once the amps get past a fused limit, it will blow. Your que to say... "Uhmmmm, getting a bit carried away with the volume control there son".
PSS I too was a bass player back in the mid-70's-early 80's. I liked both punch and deep end bass as well. Eventually opted for a Stereo 4001 Rick bass guitar, dual 15's and a pair of 10's... bi-amped. Used the vernerable Ampeg SVT for the 15's and a smaller amp for the 10's. The 10's were a great practice amp/woofer combo. The SVT/dual 15's were added for live performances. Yeah, I knocked a few things off the walls upstairs and was banished to the garage to practice in short order. I miss playing too.... been a long time!
Buffalo on 06/7/2004 12:23:42
Swez,
Thanks, you bring back memories. I played professionally in this area to earn extra cash. We were Heavy metal thunder all the way. Very much into Blue Oyster Cult, Who and the like. In the early days I used to Acoustic heads (don't remember the model numbers) doing about 200w each (lofty numbers in those days) coupled to two Sun dual 15 Folded horn enclosures. by the time it was over I had four of the Acoustics and four of the Suns. Often could only use 2 of the Suns do to stage space at the bars we played but that was usually enough. I'm paying for it today with my hearing but I sure did enjoyit then
swez on 06/8/2004 10:05:10
Hummmm, I remember those Acoustic Heads (5 band EQ if I recall rightly) and the folded horn subs. Tried a few and just could not get used to the "honkiness" of the upper bass from that enclosure design. They were very good at throwing bass a long way off stage and into the room... but for the stage bass sound, always prefered sealed or ported systems.
Also have one Ampeg 6 x 10" sealed enclosures. Not a bad stage sound, but no real thunder with them either. (low efficiency drivers) The dual ported 15's sounded very good on stage and in the room too.
Yes, The SVT Head was only 300 RMS, weighed ~90 lbs. My back hurts... just thinking about how we used to lug heavy gear up and down stairs. Gee... was I ever really that young and strong enough to lug all that junk all over town? Seems so long ago huh?
Finally, was into Hard Rock and some Heavy Metal than too. Stones, Queen, BTO, Kiss, Bowie, Seager, Grand Funk, Deep Purple and lots of top 40. Traveled a bit as a "Glitter Rock" (makeup and costumes)band for a time too. "The Rockin' Kansas City Gramaws"... if you can believe a name like that, on a marquee??? Aww heck... was young, a bit too cocky for my own good... but loved to play music. Come to think of it... meeting "chicks" was a lot easier then too... hehe
Thanks for taking me back down memory lane.... and you?
Swez
Buffalo on 06/8/2004 12:25:52
Swez,
I was a Fender Precision man and used to use the high treble metallic sound a lot so the folded horns were great. Gave me the edge I was looking for but could fill the bottom a bit also. Your right about the stage sound though. I was always trying to fiddle with the EQ's and our sound man would always come up afterward and chenge things back and tell me to stop messing around. I once heard our lead play my bass from the back of a big hall and it sounded completely different from the stage sound so I learned to leave things alone. Talk about haulin' stuff our keyboard guy's prize possesion was a Hammond B3 and rotary cabinet that we had to haul around. Made the rest of our stuff seem paltry. Luckily we had a deal with a local U-haul place for trucks and for the last three years we played mostly week or more stints in clubs so we didn't have the nightly grind. We were. for most of the time, Maxwell Parachute "Good to the Last Drop" was the slogan and the graphic was a parachute with a coffee cup on the end and a drop coming out. Top that for corny. Later changed to Rigel thank god. Never did the glitter Rock thing but I did do a stint in a 14 piece soul band complete with Temptations style singers out front. Yellow brocade tuxs and all. Ahh the lost years.........
swez on 06/8/2004 20:11:22
Oh what colorful lives we have lead huh? Hammond B3 was a monster to lug around. I remember them as being "THE THING" in keyboards back then. Nothing sounded better than a B-3.
The Fender Rhodes piano was a real clunker in my books for a stage piano... but some made it sound good in a studio environment. The F-Precision was my first bass guitar. I loved the deep tones and how they thundered when EQ that way. The Rickenbacker I eventually went to, was a 2 channel bass setup. Had a jack for MONO and either F/R or F&R pickups, depending on the amp(s) used. Tried the RotoSound strings like John Entwhistle used. (The Who) and really liked that raw, raspy funk bass or could mellow it out and sound more like a Fender P-Bass. Did you ever try a fretless bass?
Tried a Jazz band ensamble, Big Bands of the 40's and several other styles of bands as well. It was a blast. Since I was in Jr. High, I took up music and learned several instruments. Would like to get a nice keyboard and play around with that for a while too... but who has the time anymore???
Another day in "Memory Lane".... thanks for the trip back to simpler times. We seem to have a kindered spirit about life.. neat huh!
Swez
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