We are looking at Clarion, Pioneer, Alpine, Sony, Panasonic in the $200-$350 range. Opinions gladly read.
Thanks
Replies (16)
uochronos on 05/6/2004 11:59:08
i have owned kenwood, pioneer, pioneer premier, sony, and clarion. head units and i would not buy a sony or a pioneer.
panasonic is also in the lower brands.
i at the current time own both a clarionn and a pioneer premieer both of which i'm very happy with. alpine also has some very nice head units but i'am un familar with them. clarions you have to shop pretty hard to find a good one but there are usualy alot of pioneer premiers on sale... i have an older model a deh=p640 series all of the 600 and 700 series can uauly be found for under 300$ there are plenty of HU's abov that 800-900 series but they pretty much dont have better sound just6 more features and look flashier. infact its said that a deck can jump 100$ because of a few features that arnt that great when i bought mine the guy at the audio shop almost had me talked into a 740 for 350 instead of a 640 for 240$ until i read both manuals and learned that i was paing over 100$ more for mp3 capability and a couple more bass and trble booting capabilities which i wouldnt have used. i would suggest finding the brand you want then finding the model that has enough out puts for your amps and the features you need not a bunch you dont because then they are just confuseing...
also between pioneer premier, clarion, and alpine. i would say pioneer premier has one of the easier to learn layouts its very strieght forward and simple but still nice to look at.
ttocs on 05/6/2004 13:01:28
alpine........
Panasonic would suprise you if you think they are a lower brand. They do make some very entry level decks however when you get into the same price range as most other decks they are fairly reliable, and have a good setup...
Tinker18 on 05/6/2004 15:16:06
i recently purchased an alpine 9833, and i must say, i am more than happy with it. i would also shun you away from sony, ive had two, and never liked either.
swez on 05/6/2004 17:49:13
Ditto...
Midrange Pioneers, Alpine or Clarion are all good choices. The trick is not to pay for features he may not need or use.
Sony has a big name and they look pleasing to the eye, but the performance you get for what is paid... not a great value. Not that Sony upper lines are not good... just not a good value. Their Technical Support is some of the most lacking in the business... just look at the web site. All show, (glitzy) but no useful details.
Swez
uochronos on 05/6/2004 22:47:24
i really had no idea that panasonic made some decent HU's ttocs everyone i have had the dishonor to work with must have been lower level because none of them seemed to hold up to my pioneer ion quality or features. i may have to look into them i hate to think i may have been missing somehting. thanks for the info i like being enlightened about things i would have passed by
cplkittle on 05/6/2004 22:53:13
Alpine is a good choice.. and right in the price range.
You can also consider Eclipse for the lower $300 range. I personally like the security features that eclipse offers, as well as the warranty.
Buffalo on 05/7/2004 07:52:42
Thanks everyone. Just to close the loop my son ended up buying a Clarion DXZ645MP. It was a step up from what he was looking at mostly because of the preouts available.
swez on 05/7/2004 09:44:55
That's a good choice. Has many useful features, 3 pairs of pre outs for adding amps later and good EQ control features (Z-Enhancer Plus) as well. The external preamp inputs are nice if one chooses to use a portable device for music.
In all, well done!
Swez
Buffalo on 05/10/2004 08:12:24
Swez,
Thanks. As you might see in another thread everything is bought now and we are waiting for it to get here. In addition to the HU he ended up with a Audiobahn A4004T 4x50, Infinity Kappa 50.5cs components to be mounted in a set of front kick panels by Q-form and JBL GOT926 6x9's for the back. Ordered all the wiring and such from Crutchfield and Sound Domain. Hopefully we thought of everything. Now we have to figure out how to mount the stuff in the trunk. I'm thinking of doing only a temporary wood thing and then transferring everything over to the sub box when he does that. Any opinions?
swez on 05/10/2004 09:11:15
Progress is being made and the kick panels generally do sound better than many door mounts as well. I guess you really did not want to deal with the door panels afterall.
That Bahn amp, are you planning to run all 4 interior speakers with it or front channels to kicks and rear channels to a sub? If yes, the rear speakers can be powered off the HU amplifiers with good results.
As for the sub... if you bridge the rear channels on the Bahn 4004T, you'll get 200 RMS watts of power for a sub at 4 ohms. Can use a modest single coil 4 ohm woofer or a dual coil (2+2) type sub for best efficiency.
Finally, as for mounting the amp, many do mount single amps to the sub enclosure or make an amp rack that mounts in trunk or under the seats. Not much more than a piece of wood, covered with matching carpet material and all wiring is attached to wood as well.
Swez
Buffalo on 05/10/2004 12:25:49
Swez,
We are going to run the 4 channels to the four speaker point front and rear. He's planning on another amp for the subs. We are going to do all the wiring we can on the initial install for the sub so later on we can just plug in. the wiring kit we got is for two amps using 4ga and comes with a fused distribution block and all the power and ground wiring we need. We also have the interconnects from the head unit to the future subs coming and will run them off the third set of preamp outs from the Clarion and then tape up the ends and tuck them away until we need them. The kick panel thing wasn't so much dealing with the doors as everything I read said they would provide better imaging than the doors anyway so that's what we went with. One question I've seen some debate on. The power wiring kit is coming with a distribution block for the ground but I've read that we shouldn't be ganging grounds for multiple amps together like that but instead should be running seperate ground leads to the chassis but keeping them close together. Opinion?
ttocs on 05/10/2004 13:59:56
after years of installing I have had hit and miss problems with both wiring scenarios. I think it is more equipment dependant then anything. The shop I sideline at now likes to put all the grounds at the same point. We run 2 seperate wires along with the rca and remote wires and get all pwr connections for the deck and amps at the same place, the distro block. This help to reduce ground loops.
Your 4 channel amp is going to run all the speakers right? IF you mount it in the back, run all your speaker wires to the rear factory speaker locations. Now hook your rear speakers directly to the rear amp outputs, and hook the front amp outputs to the rear factory speaker wires. Now when you install the deck, connect the front and rear speaker wires together and you will not have to run any additional speaker wires. make sence(shrugs shoulders)?
Buffalo on 05/10/2004 14:44:47
ttocs,
Makes perfect sense. The only problem is we are not putting the new fronts in the factory location. He bought Q-form kick panels and we'll be using those for the fronts. I figure I'm going to be running the interconnects from front to back anyway so I might as well run new front speaker wire also. I got some decent 14ga on order. On the ground question are you in favor of using the ground distribution block and then running a single 8ga ground from the block to the chassis?
ttocs on 05/10/2004 17:34:38
I would use the dist block myself....
Sounds like you are off to a good start in the planning dept. WHat were you going to use to protect the cable from the firewall? We generally use a plastic or rubber grommet. If the car is not a stick there may be one there already for the clutch cable....
swez on 05/10/2004 18:45:06
Buffalo,
I agree with your kick panel solution for several reasons. Good option and generally easier to install than door locations and better sound quality as well.
As for a grounding D-Block, yes... by all means use one. Clean install that way and all grounds are located to 1 point. Your groun wire to chassis should be #4 with 2 amps installed. You can use a length of the #4 wire you got in the kit. Just paint it black or wrap with electrical tape to denote it is ground. Depending on the amps used, a #8 from each to grounding block will be fine.
Ttocs mentioned running the HU 12 volt lines and ground from the back as well. I like that idea as it tends to prevent unwanted noise and ground loops issues. That would be 4 wires in all:
1. Main power feed w/ fuse
2. Constant power for Memory and clock
3. Ground wire for HU
4. +12 v REM line to turn on amps.
NOTE: You may wish to include a set of speaker lines (2 pair) in this bundle that will feed front kick panel speaker lines. #14 -16 wire is sufficient here.
You may want to run these under the carpet, down the middle of the car. The main Power feed line on one trim rail, the RCA signal line on the other side trim rail or carpet.
The Bahn amp has preouts for a 2nd amp to plug into as well. You may use them for sub amp inputs if you wish or use the Sub preouts from the HU. The HU may have a set of controls in the menu for sub functions like loudness and crossover frequency. But these are redundant as the amp will also have these features. You can still control sub output levels by using the Bass tone control features in the HU.
Finally, we need to discuss power management for the system before he chooses his subs and amp. You need to find out what current output is available from the ALT and what CCA rating the BAT has. If this is like most smaller Imports, the ALT may be 75-90A max. The Battery may only be 500 CCA or so.
The 4 channel Bahn will pull close to 45A at full power. A large sub amp can easily pull that and much more. Add up the amps power draw and you may find the ALT not keeping up at high listening levels. More on that at a later time.
Swez
wilee-coyote on 05/11/2004 00:28:54
I love Alpine for many reasons. If you're going to add separate amps the voltage on the Alpine preouts is higher then most. Also the tend to have a good power/channel ratio for the $$$ spent. Not to mention they just look cool. Whatever you do, my personal preference would be a HU that has a knob for the volume control. So many have done away with these but you can't beat them when you rach for the dash! Preference I know but at least consider it in the HU you pick.
Thanks
Replies (16)
uochronos on 05/6/2004 11:59:08
i have owned kenwood, pioneer, pioneer premier, sony, and clarion. head units and i would not buy a sony or a pioneer.
panasonic is also in the lower brands.
i at the current time own both a clarionn and a pioneer premieer both of which i'm very happy with. alpine also has some very nice head units but i'am un familar with them. clarions you have to shop pretty hard to find a good one but there are usualy alot of pioneer premiers on sale... i have an older model a deh=p640 series all of the 600 and 700 series can uauly be found for under 300$ there are plenty of HU's abov that 800-900 series but they pretty much dont have better sound just6 more features and look flashier. infact its said that a deck can jump 100$ because of a few features that arnt that great when i bought mine the guy at the audio shop almost had me talked into a 740 for 350 instead of a 640 for 240$ until i read both manuals and learned that i was paing over 100$ more for mp3 capability and a couple more bass and trble booting capabilities which i wouldnt have used. i would suggest finding the brand you want then finding the model that has enough out puts for your amps and the features you need not a bunch you dont because then they are just confuseing...
also between pioneer premier, clarion, and alpine. i would say pioneer premier has one of the easier to learn layouts its very strieght forward and simple but still nice to look at.
ttocs on 05/6/2004 13:01:28
alpine........
Panasonic would suprise you if you think they are a lower brand. They do make some very entry level decks however when you get into the same price range as most other decks they are fairly reliable, and have a good setup...
Tinker18 on 05/6/2004 15:16:06
i recently purchased an alpine 9833, and i must say, i am more than happy with it. i would also shun you away from sony, ive had two, and never liked either.
swez on 05/6/2004 17:49:13
Ditto...
Midrange Pioneers, Alpine or Clarion are all good choices. The trick is not to pay for features he may not need or use.
Sony has a big name and they look pleasing to the eye, but the performance you get for what is paid... not a great value. Not that Sony upper lines are not good... just not a good value. Their Technical Support is some of the most lacking in the business... just look at the web site. All show, (glitzy) but no useful details.
Swez
uochronos on 05/6/2004 22:47:24
i really had no idea that panasonic made some decent HU's ttocs everyone i have had the dishonor to work with must have been lower level because none of them seemed to hold up to my pioneer ion quality or features. i may have to look into them i hate to think i may have been missing somehting. thanks for the info i like being enlightened about things i would have passed by
cplkittle on 05/6/2004 22:53:13
Alpine is a good choice.. and right in the price range.
You can also consider Eclipse for the lower $300 range. I personally like the security features that eclipse offers, as well as the warranty.
Buffalo on 05/7/2004 07:52:42
Thanks everyone. Just to close the loop my son ended up buying a Clarion DXZ645MP. It was a step up from what he was looking at mostly because of the preouts available.
swez on 05/7/2004 09:44:55
That's a good choice. Has many useful features, 3 pairs of pre outs for adding amps later and good EQ control features (Z-Enhancer Plus) as well. The external preamp inputs are nice if one chooses to use a portable device for music.
In all, well done!
Swez
Buffalo on 05/10/2004 08:12:24
Swez,
Thanks. As you might see in another thread everything is bought now and we are waiting for it to get here. In addition to the HU he ended up with a Audiobahn A4004T 4x50, Infinity Kappa 50.5cs components to be mounted in a set of front kick panels by Q-form and JBL GOT926 6x9's for the back. Ordered all the wiring and such from Crutchfield and Sound Domain. Hopefully we thought of everything. Now we have to figure out how to mount the stuff in the trunk. I'm thinking of doing only a temporary wood thing and then transferring everything over to the sub box when he does that. Any opinions?
swez on 05/10/2004 09:11:15
Progress is being made and the kick panels generally do sound better than many door mounts as well. I guess you really did not want to deal with the door panels afterall.
That Bahn amp, are you planning to run all 4 interior speakers with it or front channels to kicks and rear channels to a sub? If yes, the rear speakers can be powered off the HU amplifiers with good results.
As for the sub... if you bridge the rear channels on the Bahn 4004T, you'll get 200 RMS watts of power for a sub at 4 ohms. Can use a modest single coil 4 ohm woofer or a dual coil (2+2) type sub for best efficiency.
Finally, as for mounting the amp, many do mount single amps to the sub enclosure or make an amp rack that mounts in trunk or under the seats. Not much more than a piece of wood, covered with matching carpet material and all wiring is attached to wood as well.
Swez
Buffalo on 05/10/2004 12:25:49
Swez,
We are going to run the 4 channels to the four speaker point front and rear. He's planning on another amp for the subs. We are going to do all the wiring we can on the initial install for the sub so later on we can just plug in. the wiring kit we got is for two amps using 4ga and comes with a fused distribution block and all the power and ground wiring we need. We also have the interconnects from the head unit to the future subs coming and will run them off the third set of preamp outs from the Clarion and then tape up the ends and tuck them away until we need them. The kick panel thing wasn't so much dealing with the doors as everything I read said they would provide better imaging than the doors anyway so that's what we went with. One question I've seen some debate on. The power wiring kit is coming with a distribution block for the ground but I've read that we shouldn't be ganging grounds for multiple amps together like that but instead should be running seperate ground leads to the chassis but keeping them close together. Opinion?
ttocs on 05/10/2004 13:59:56
after years of installing I have had hit and miss problems with both wiring scenarios. I think it is more equipment dependant then anything. The shop I sideline at now likes to put all the grounds at the same point. We run 2 seperate wires along with the rca and remote wires and get all pwr connections for the deck and amps at the same place, the distro block. This help to reduce ground loops.
Your 4 channel amp is going to run all the speakers right? IF you mount it in the back, run all your speaker wires to the rear factory speaker locations. Now hook your rear speakers directly to the rear amp outputs, and hook the front amp outputs to the rear factory speaker wires. Now when you install the deck, connect the front and rear speaker wires together and you will not have to run any additional speaker wires. make sence(shrugs shoulders)?
Buffalo on 05/10/2004 14:44:47
ttocs,
Makes perfect sense. The only problem is we are not putting the new fronts in the factory location. He bought Q-form kick panels and we'll be using those for the fronts. I figure I'm going to be running the interconnects from front to back anyway so I might as well run new front speaker wire also. I got some decent 14ga on order. On the ground question are you in favor of using the ground distribution block and then running a single 8ga ground from the block to the chassis?
ttocs on 05/10/2004 17:34:38
I would use the dist block myself....
Sounds like you are off to a good start in the planning dept. WHat were you going to use to protect the cable from the firewall? We generally use a plastic or rubber grommet. If the car is not a stick there may be one there already for the clutch cable....
swez on 05/10/2004 18:45:06
Buffalo,
I agree with your kick panel solution for several reasons. Good option and generally easier to install than door locations and better sound quality as well.
As for a grounding D-Block, yes... by all means use one. Clean install that way and all grounds are located to 1 point. Your groun wire to chassis should be #4 with 2 amps installed. You can use a length of the #4 wire you got in the kit. Just paint it black or wrap with electrical tape to denote it is ground. Depending on the amps used, a #8 from each to grounding block will be fine.
Ttocs mentioned running the HU 12 volt lines and ground from the back as well. I like that idea as it tends to prevent unwanted noise and ground loops issues. That would be 4 wires in all:
1. Main power feed w/ fuse
2. Constant power for Memory and clock
3. Ground wire for HU
4. +12 v REM line to turn on amps.
NOTE: You may wish to include a set of speaker lines (2 pair) in this bundle that will feed front kick panel speaker lines. #14 -16 wire is sufficient here.
You may want to run these under the carpet, down the middle of the car. The main Power feed line on one trim rail, the RCA signal line on the other side trim rail or carpet.
The Bahn amp has preouts for a 2nd amp to plug into as well. You may use them for sub amp inputs if you wish or use the Sub preouts from the HU. The HU may have a set of controls in the menu for sub functions like loudness and crossover frequency. But these are redundant as the amp will also have these features. You can still control sub output levels by using the Bass tone control features in the HU.
Finally, we need to discuss power management for the system before he chooses his subs and amp. You need to find out what current output is available from the ALT and what CCA rating the BAT has. If this is like most smaller Imports, the ALT may be 75-90A max. The Battery may only be 500 CCA or so.
The 4 channel Bahn will pull close to 45A at full power. A large sub amp can easily pull that and much more. Add up the amps power draw and you may find the ALT not keeping up at high listening levels. More on that at a later time.
Swez
wilee-coyote on 05/11/2004 00:28:54
I love Alpine for many reasons. If you're going to add separate amps the voltage on the Alpine preouts is higher then most. Also the tend to have a good power/channel ratio for the $$$ spent. Not to mention they just look cool. Whatever you do, my personal preference would be a HU that has a knob for the volume control. So many have done away with these but you can't beat them when you rach for the dash! Preference I know but at least consider it in the HU you pick.
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