I called and talked to John at Maxxsonics and he told to get the low end boomier bass, I would need a balanced input driver. I dont know what this is and is this statement true?... I've heard that they are used to boost the voltage for a low level HU RCA output. Please explain, Thanx
Replies (22)
saintanddolphin on 04/30/2004 18:27:30
I dont know about balanced input driver but I do know that an enclosure design change would alter the response of your driver.
It could be as simple as adding poly fill or removing it(depending on driver q and type,size of enclosure).
What sub are you using?What type and size of enclosure?
One of the Golds will have to help with the balance input driver issue but am curious about your set up.
Mike
swez on 04/30/2004 19:22:08
A balanced line driver (BLD) is used to cancel noise and provide a clean signal to the input side of the device it feeds.
Instead of using a traditional "unbalanced line" ( center pin of RCA is +Y voltage) and shielded claw is at ground potential. The BLD will be similar, but the pin connector is +Y voltage and the shielded ground claw is now 180 degress out of phase or -Y voltage. They track at 180 degrees out of phase to cancel noise and provide a cleaner audio signal to the next device in the audio chain.
If you want to read more and see diagrams:
http://www.bcae1.com/ballndrv.htm
Swez
SeJae on 04/30/2004 20:40:27
So, your saying that my low end bass will be louder, Swez or what else do you suggest? I have 2 HZ12's and a sealed enclosure with a BX1000D Hifonics amp, not sure how many cf the box is. But the box had 2 12 MTX4000''s before...
swez on 04/30/2004 21:20:08
The Zeus subs mentioned, really lack decent information off the HiFonics web site. They note a ported enclosure of 0.70 cf per sub, with port tuning of 40 Hz.
Oddly, the same specs are given for the 10" version as the 12" subs. I can only guess that there is more to this story than is available off the web site. Do you have the spec sheet that came with these subs? Usually, they come with detailed box building parameters and recommended seled or ported enclosure recommendations.
If you do not have that info, call HiFonix bck and ask for more detail on recommended sub enclosure designs for these subs.
Most 12" subs will work well in .88 - 1.50 cf sealed enclosures. However, some subs that are designed for HIGH SPL applications are restricted to small enclosures that really do not provide much low end bass. This may be one of those types.
Again, call HiFonics back and ask to speak with one of thier senior techs or engineers about this application. Come back and let us know what you hear OK?
Swez
ttocs on 05/1/2004 02:56:03
if you are wanting to get more out of your bass a simple but great way is with the PG bass nob. It is a single band parametric eq with subsonic filter........... Bassheads dream........
SeJae on 05/1/2004 15:55:17
TTocs is it a bass remote, cause if it is then my amp came with one... So you guys think that I should go ahead and purchase the BLD or what? Thanx ahead of time
uochronos on 05/1/2004 16:06:17
i believe what ttocs was refering to was thwe phoenix gold bass cube... audio control also makes one similar called "the epicenter" both of these items increase your bass performance by maximizing tthe bass in your music and recreating it without distortion.
ttocs on 05/1/2004 19:40:35
it will allow you to pick a certain bass freq, allow the frequencies around that frequencies that you want, and then boost them.
swez on 05/1/2004 20:59:52
Found a high end (expensive) line driver that can be considered, if you choose to go that route. Am not recommending you buy it, but at least you can look at it, read the details and store that info in your head for now.
==========================================
Product ID: N-1000 Category: Driver Products
N-1000
Description: This unit features the best possible way to increase and convey the signal level without raising the noise floor. Featuring a fully isolated bi-polar power supply. Complete with balanced cables, a transmitter and receiver. It can handle signal levels up to 10 volts RMS and exhibits a source impedance of less than 50 ohms. Soft turn-on and delayed turn-off circuitry makes the N-1000 a truly competition quality component. Used by MARK ELDRIDGE to win the 1995, 1996 & 2000 IASCA Unlimited Expert Class. Shipped with 12 feet of balanced cable.
Price: $250.00
http://www.davidnavone.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=N-1000
===========================================
As for what to do next, still need your present enclosure details. That's H, W & D. This will help determine the cf of internal air space our subs are working in.
Also, what HU are you using now? Brand and model #? Am curious what the RCA output voltage is on this HU and where is the gain set on your Amp now?
Swez
SeJae on 05/2/2004 15:06:48
I still have to measure my enclosure, but I tried to calculate the total and divide by 1728 and got like 10.72 or 9.72, that doesnt semm right, but ill remeasure and post it. My HU is a Panasonic CQ-H1083U "Ghostface", the RCA output is 5 volts. My amp gain was just a little over halfway, but now I got it turned farther than that. Also, since the subs I have r single 4 ohm coil, I was thinking of buying some 4 ohm DVC for a 1 ohm load to the amp. John at Maxxsonics said this is 1 ohm stable, what do you guys think?br
swez on 05/2/2004 18:50:31
The BX1000D is 1 ohm stable and specs say 1000 watts RMS @ 1 ohm, 500 @ 2 ohms and 250 watts @ 4 ohms. With your present subs, the best you can get is 500 RMS (250/sub). That should still make some serious bass, even at 250 per sub.
This amp has an input sensitivity range of 250mV to 9.0 volts. So a middle setting is about right foryour HU which is 5.0 volts out to sub amp. You may want to try dialing back a tad toward the 250mV side of the gain and listen to your subs closely for excess distortions and amp clipping. Clipping is covered in the FAQ section of this site.
Finally, to get a rough approximate internal cf number, use this general format: Good for squares and rectangles
H" x D" x L" = "X" cubic inches
"X"/1728 = "Y" exterior cubic feet
"Y" x 0.70 = "Z" = approximate internal cf (this is a quick and dirty way to derive internal cf of a box) There is a more accurate way, but it takes a few more steps to arrive at the proper internal dimensions.
If you have a wedge type box, the base will be D1 and the top will be D2. To determine "D net", use this calculation:
D1 + D2 =D'/2 = actual D in cubic inches. Then plug that into the earlier equation for a result.
From the numbers you mentioned... 10.72 or 9.72, this box seems to be 7.50 or 6.8 cf internally. Way too large for these subs per HiFonics specs.
SubZone makes a great enclosure and here is a wedge box design that nets 0.88 cf/sub. By adding the sub displacement, should be very close to HiFonics specs for these subs>
http://www.subzoneusa.com/images/h-122lqs%20dimensions.jpg
Zeb Audio had this box for $90.00 or use the exterior dimensions to make your own box for ~ $60.00
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=5360
Swez
cplkittle on 05/5/2004 08:22:05
Just wanted to say thanks, Swez for that link. I had to figure out balanced/unbalanced outputs myself, with that link, a third grader could look at the picture and explain it..
good site.
kudos
SeJae on 05/18/2004 16:56:04
Hey Swez, I just remeasured and my box is 2.216 cf internally. But because my enclosure has seperated chambers would I cut the cf in half. If so that would put me around 1.0 cf per sub chamber or what?... John at maxxsonics told me that the HZ12's need 1.0 to 1.5 cf for the proper sound. But I plan on getting either some infinity kappa 12.1 or EDK or EDO series 12's DVC. So I can run my Hifonics bx1000d @ 1ohm. Thanx ahead of time.
SeJae on 05/18/2004 17:00:33
my enclosure measurements are H = 13 D = 14 and L =30. I looked on ebay and a sealed enclosure had the same exact measurements and they claimed it was 1.25 cf. So why am I getting 2.212 ?.....
uochronos on 05/19/2004 05:09:55
i get close to the same number as you....could be the 1.25 is after sub displacement. or be thiker wood or some sort of block inside to take up space.
SeJae on 05/19/2004 10:39:36
Maybe because the enclosure is split in two because of seperate chambers... Also, I guess Ill go with the ED12Kx DVC, so I can run my Hifonics BX1000D at 1ohm... Some for real bass, huh.......
swez on 05/19/2004 11:18:44
When measuring internal dimensions, yes... one must subtract the cubic inch displacement of the divider board and sub displacement as well.
If you are pretty close to 1.0 cf/sub now, that should be about right for most 12" subs. Can expect more punchy bass in smaller side specs and deeper bass on larger side of specs.
Your amp is fine at 1 ohm, the subs will need to take all those watts as well and if the box is +/- 10% of recommended enclosure size, this will affect your overall bass sound.
If your box is just a little on the small side, adding 50-75% polyfill to each chamber will help. (about 1 lb per sub) This makes the enclosure seem a bit larger to sub and better overall low end bass is usually the result.
Swez
SeJae on 05/19/2004 11:36:59
Appreciate it Swez dogg. So I take that the ED12Kv Series are a very good choice for my setup?.. Also, can I get polyfill at like a Jo Ann fabrics or where else. Not quite sure what polyfill is though.br
uochronos on 05/19/2004 13:27:53
pollyfill is simply pillow stuffing. any fabric store should carry it... i buy mine at walmart
swez on 05/19/2004 20:30:13
The goal here, is getting a 1 ohm load with dual subs. You will need a pair of 4+4 ohm subs in full parallel to get that power range. Having 4 VC's, all in parallel net 4/4 =1 ohm. The subs will have to take 500 RMS each as well. (250/coil) The 12Kv.2 subs will not work in this one.
Your better choice is the e12kx.44. A pair of these are pretty close to power and a good fit for your enclosure too. Are refurbished and cheaper than new. $75.00/ea. 1.0 cf/sub sealed, 100-400 RMS/sub
See: http://www.audiohole.com/detail.asp?id=455
==================================================
The next series up in power are the e12o.44 series. They handle more power, but require a larger enclosure than you have now to get the best bass from them. Are refurbished and cheaper than new. These are $165.00/ea. 1.5 cf/sub sealed 200-650 RMS/sub
See: http://www.audiohole.com/detail.asp?id=591
====================================================
Here's a winner!
Driver Name : e12K.44 / 14
Available Voice Coils : Dual 4 ohm, Single 4 ohm
Recommended Power Range : 350/650 watts
Recommended Applications : Sealed / Vented
Rec. Box Sizes : Sealed (.6-1.2cF), Vented (1.2 - 2.0cF)
Current Price : $105.00** / MSRP $225.00
You'll want the e12K.44 model (4+4 DVC)
See: http://www.edesignaudio.com/k.htm
===================================================
That's what I see from eD. The best choice is the last model noted.
Swez
SeJae on 05/20/2004 12:32:03
I called ED and they said that they dont carry the ED12K.44, but they keep talking about the O series which costs 165 per speaker. Not quite sure if I should go with it or try another brand of speaker or just drop down to the KX series. Which is 75 per speaker and the rms is 200 to 400 instead of the 500. This probably wont make a difference as far as my Hifonics BX1000D 1000 @ 1ohm. Will this cut down on the work of the amp or it wont matter ? What do you guys think?
swez on 05/20/2004 20:33:59
Actually, the Kx.44 series may be a very good choice for that amp. A 400 RMS sub pair will take short burst of more power and it will be clean power as well. That is good for a sealed enclosure type system as well.
The only thing... do a very complete setup job on the amp after the subs have broken in a few days. Subs are pretty tight for the first 24 hours of use. But then they loosen up and you'll get full X-max before the amp starts to clip. Just listen carefully when setting up your gains and avoid using much (if any) bass boost.
Read this for more details on setting up your subs:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Swez
Replies (22)
saintanddolphin on 04/30/2004 18:27:30
I dont know about balanced input driver but I do know that an enclosure design change would alter the response of your driver.
It could be as simple as adding poly fill or removing it(depending on driver q and type,size of enclosure).
What sub are you using?What type and size of enclosure?
One of the Golds will have to help with the balance input driver issue but am curious about your set up.
Mike
swez on 04/30/2004 19:22:08
A balanced line driver (BLD) is used to cancel noise and provide a clean signal to the input side of the device it feeds.
Instead of using a traditional "unbalanced line" ( center pin of RCA is +Y voltage) and shielded claw is at ground potential. The BLD will be similar, but the pin connector is +Y voltage and the shielded ground claw is now 180 degress out of phase or -Y voltage. They track at 180 degrees out of phase to cancel noise and provide a cleaner audio signal to the next device in the audio chain.
If you want to read more and see diagrams:
http://www.bcae1.com/ballndrv.htm
Swez
SeJae on 04/30/2004 20:40:27
So, your saying that my low end bass will be louder, Swez or what else do you suggest? I have 2 HZ12's and a sealed enclosure with a BX1000D Hifonics amp, not sure how many cf the box is. But the box had 2 12 MTX4000''s before...
swez on 04/30/2004 21:20:08
The Zeus subs mentioned, really lack decent information off the HiFonics web site. They note a ported enclosure of 0.70 cf per sub, with port tuning of 40 Hz.
Oddly, the same specs are given for the 10" version as the 12" subs. I can only guess that there is more to this story than is available off the web site. Do you have the spec sheet that came with these subs? Usually, they come with detailed box building parameters and recommended seled or ported enclosure recommendations.
If you do not have that info, call HiFonix bck and ask for more detail on recommended sub enclosure designs for these subs.
Most 12" subs will work well in .88 - 1.50 cf sealed enclosures. However, some subs that are designed for HIGH SPL applications are restricted to small enclosures that really do not provide much low end bass. This may be one of those types.
Again, call HiFonics back and ask to speak with one of thier senior techs or engineers about this application. Come back and let us know what you hear OK?
Swez
ttocs on 05/1/2004 02:56:03
if you are wanting to get more out of your bass a simple but great way is with the PG bass nob. It is a single band parametric eq with subsonic filter........... Bassheads dream........
SeJae on 05/1/2004 15:55:17
TTocs is it a bass remote, cause if it is then my amp came with one... So you guys think that I should go ahead and purchase the BLD or what? Thanx ahead of time
uochronos on 05/1/2004 16:06:17
i believe what ttocs was refering to was thwe phoenix gold bass cube... audio control also makes one similar called "the epicenter" both of these items increase your bass performance by maximizing tthe bass in your music and recreating it without distortion.
ttocs on 05/1/2004 19:40:35
it will allow you to pick a certain bass freq, allow the frequencies around that frequencies that you want, and then boost them.
swez on 05/1/2004 20:59:52
Found a high end (expensive) line driver that can be considered, if you choose to go that route. Am not recommending you buy it, but at least you can look at it, read the details and store that info in your head for now.
==========================================
Product ID: N-1000 Category: Driver Products
N-1000
Description: This unit features the best possible way to increase and convey the signal level without raising the noise floor. Featuring a fully isolated bi-polar power supply. Complete with balanced cables, a transmitter and receiver. It can handle signal levels up to 10 volts RMS and exhibits a source impedance of less than 50 ohms. Soft turn-on and delayed turn-off circuitry makes the N-1000 a truly competition quality component. Used by MARK ELDRIDGE to win the 1995, 1996 & 2000 IASCA Unlimited Expert Class. Shipped with 12 feet of balanced cable.
Price: $250.00
http://www.davidnavone.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=N-1000
===========================================
As for what to do next, still need your present enclosure details. That's H, W & D. This will help determine the cf of internal air space our subs are working in.
Also, what HU are you using now? Brand and model #? Am curious what the RCA output voltage is on this HU and where is the gain set on your Amp now?
Swez
SeJae on 05/2/2004 15:06:48
I still have to measure my enclosure, but I tried to calculate the total and divide by 1728 and got like 10.72 or 9.72, that doesnt semm right, but ill remeasure and post it. My HU is a Panasonic CQ-H1083U "Ghostface", the RCA output is 5 volts. My amp gain was just a little over halfway, but now I got it turned farther than that. Also, since the subs I have r single 4 ohm coil, I was thinking of buying some 4 ohm DVC for a 1 ohm load to the amp. John at Maxxsonics said this is 1 ohm stable, what do you guys think?br
swez on 05/2/2004 18:50:31
The BX1000D is 1 ohm stable and specs say 1000 watts RMS @ 1 ohm, 500 @ 2 ohms and 250 watts @ 4 ohms. With your present subs, the best you can get is 500 RMS (250/sub). That should still make some serious bass, even at 250 per sub.
This amp has an input sensitivity range of 250mV to 9.0 volts. So a middle setting is about right foryour HU which is 5.0 volts out to sub amp. You may want to try dialing back a tad toward the 250mV side of the gain and listen to your subs closely for excess distortions and amp clipping. Clipping is covered in the FAQ section of this site.
Finally, to get a rough approximate internal cf number, use this general format: Good for squares and rectangles
H" x D" x L" = "X" cubic inches
"X"/1728 = "Y" exterior cubic feet
"Y" x 0.70 = "Z" = approximate internal cf (this is a quick and dirty way to derive internal cf of a box) There is a more accurate way, but it takes a few more steps to arrive at the proper internal dimensions.
If you have a wedge type box, the base will be D1 and the top will be D2. To determine "D net", use this calculation:
D1 + D2 =D'/2 = actual D in cubic inches. Then plug that into the earlier equation for a result.
From the numbers you mentioned... 10.72 or 9.72, this box seems to be 7.50 or 6.8 cf internally. Way too large for these subs per HiFonics specs.
SubZone makes a great enclosure and here is a wedge box design that nets 0.88 cf/sub. By adding the sub displacement, should be very close to HiFonics specs for these subs>
http://www.subzoneusa.com/images/h-122lqs%20dimensions.jpg
Zeb Audio had this box for $90.00 or use the exterior dimensions to make your own box for ~ $60.00
http://www.thezeb.com/detail.aspx?ID=5360
Swez
cplkittle on 05/5/2004 08:22:05
Just wanted to say thanks, Swez for that link. I had to figure out balanced/unbalanced outputs myself, with that link, a third grader could look at the picture and explain it..
good site.
kudos
SeJae on 05/18/2004 16:56:04
Hey Swez, I just remeasured and my box is 2.216 cf internally. But because my enclosure has seperated chambers would I cut the cf in half. If so that would put me around 1.0 cf per sub chamber or what?... John at maxxsonics told me that the HZ12's need 1.0 to 1.5 cf for the proper sound. But I plan on getting either some infinity kappa 12.1 or EDK or EDO series 12's DVC. So I can run my Hifonics bx1000d @ 1ohm. Thanx ahead of time.
SeJae on 05/18/2004 17:00:33
my enclosure measurements are H = 13 D = 14 and L =30. I looked on ebay and a sealed enclosure had the same exact measurements and they claimed it was 1.25 cf. So why am I getting 2.212 ?.....
uochronos on 05/19/2004 05:09:55
i get close to the same number as you....could be the 1.25 is after sub displacement. or be thiker wood or some sort of block inside to take up space.
SeJae on 05/19/2004 10:39:36
Maybe because the enclosure is split in two because of seperate chambers... Also, I guess Ill go with the ED12Kx DVC, so I can run my Hifonics BX1000D at 1ohm... Some for real bass, huh.......
swez on 05/19/2004 11:18:44
When measuring internal dimensions, yes... one must subtract the cubic inch displacement of the divider board and sub displacement as well.
If you are pretty close to 1.0 cf/sub now, that should be about right for most 12" subs. Can expect more punchy bass in smaller side specs and deeper bass on larger side of specs.
Your amp is fine at 1 ohm, the subs will need to take all those watts as well and if the box is +/- 10% of recommended enclosure size, this will affect your overall bass sound.
If your box is just a little on the small side, adding 50-75% polyfill to each chamber will help. (about 1 lb per sub) This makes the enclosure seem a bit larger to sub and better overall low end bass is usually the result.
Swez
SeJae on 05/19/2004 11:36:59
Appreciate it Swez dogg. So I take that the ED12Kv Series are a very good choice for my setup?.. Also, can I get polyfill at like a Jo Ann fabrics or where else. Not quite sure what polyfill is though.br
uochronos on 05/19/2004 13:27:53
pollyfill is simply pillow stuffing. any fabric store should carry it... i buy mine at walmart
swez on 05/19/2004 20:30:13
The goal here, is getting a 1 ohm load with dual subs. You will need a pair of 4+4 ohm subs in full parallel to get that power range. Having 4 VC's, all in parallel net 4/4 =1 ohm. The subs will have to take 500 RMS each as well. (250/coil) The 12Kv.2 subs will not work in this one.
Your better choice is the e12kx.44. A pair of these are pretty close to power and a good fit for your enclosure too. Are refurbished and cheaper than new. $75.00/ea. 1.0 cf/sub sealed, 100-400 RMS/sub
See: http://www.audiohole.com/detail.asp?id=455
==================================================
The next series up in power are the e12o.44 series. They handle more power, but require a larger enclosure than you have now to get the best bass from them. Are refurbished and cheaper than new. These are $165.00/ea. 1.5 cf/sub sealed 200-650 RMS/sub
See: http://www.audiohole.com/detail.asp?id=591
====================================================
Here's a winner!
Driver Name : e12K.44 / 14
Available Voice Coils : Dual 4 ohm, Single 4 ohm
Recommended Power Range : 350/650 watts
Recommended Applications : Sealed / Vented
Rec. Box Sizes : Sealed (.6-1.2cF), Vented (1.2 - 2.0cF)
Current Price : $105.00** / MSRP $225.00
You'll want the e12K.44 model (4+4 DVC)
See: http://www.edesignaudio.com/k.htm
===================================================
That's what I see from eD. The best choice is the last model noted.
Swez
SeJae on 05/20/2004 12:32:03
I called ED and they said that they dont carry the ED12K.44, but they keep talking about the O series which costs 165 per speaker. Not quite sure if I should go with it or try another brand of speaker or just drop down to the KX series. Which is 75 per speaker and the rms is 200 to 400 instead of the 500. This probably wont make a difference as far as my Hifonics BX1000D 1000 @ 1ohm. Will this cut down on the work of the amp or it wont matter ? What do you guys think?
swez on 05/20/2004 20:33:59
Actually, the Kx.44 series may be a very good choice for that amp. A 400 RMS sub pair will take short burst of more power and it will be clean power as well. That is good for a sealed enclosure type system as well.
The only thing... do a very complete setup job on the amp after the subs have broken in a few days. Subs are pretty tight for the first 24 hours of use. But then they loosen up and you'll get full X-max before the amp starts to clip. Just listen carefully when setting up your gains and avoid using much (if any) bass boost.
Read this for more details on setting up your subs:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Swez
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