I have bucket seats in my truck, and I have very little space inside of it, being a single cab. I do not want to put my subs behind my seat so I built my own box in between my seats. I have two 12" audiobahn 400 watt rms subs, pushed by a Lanzar 1600 watt amp. I want 2 subs that have a higher effiency rating than the 92.3 of the 12's I have now, And at least 300 watss rms power and a better amp. The problem is, I don't want to spend a fortune to do it. I was thinking Infinity Kappa Perfect 12'.....but I don't know. I'm open to any suggestions.
-KP
Replies (23)
swez on 04/18/2004 09:27:19
This is a tough call as we don't have real details on how Bahn rates efficiency numbers on their subs. The RMS ratings are usually accurate for Bahn subs and amps. What sub model are you using here and how many cf is your enclosure? (Ported or Sealed?)
That Lanzar amp may be your weak link. What is the model number and type of amp used here? ( 2 Channel, Mono or other?)
Lanzar makes decent gear, but they tend to over rate their output figures.
This, coupled with how the subs are setup, (wiring to amp and enclosure) may be the root of your dissatisfaction. What is your biggest complaint about what you have now?
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/18/2004 13:12:13
Aw1251Q=sub ID. My enclosure is almost 2 cu. ft. sealed. Amp is a Vibe 258 2 ch. It's wired in a series parralel at 4 ohms. my biggest complaint about it is that it doesn't sound as good as I think it should. The subs are DVC 4 ohm. I want to change my subs and amp, but I'm not sure what to go with. KP
blacktallon2000 on 04/18/2004 14:15:37
You'd be better off keeping the Audiobahn subs. They are very effecient and in my opinion they sound better than the infinity subs you mentioned. is the box volume 2 Cuf per sub ? or is it a combined calculation. The manufacturers specs for this sub is minimum 0.9 Cuf and maximum 1.6 Cuf with 50% fiberfill. If your box is too big or too small the sound will not be what it should.
swez on 04/18/2004 20:11:41
Just curious.. which way are the subs facing in your vehicle now? Also, what is the LP filter and amp gain settings on the amp? This may just be a setup problem and not so much an equipment issue.
Can you explain your main complaint with the system as is now?
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/18/2004 20:40:58
My enclosure is 1 cu. ft per sub, and one sub is facing left, and one right. I'm not sure of the LP filter, as I haven't looked at it lately but gain settings? Don't know what that is. I've heard the Infinity Kappa Perfect 12's and my subs have nothing on them. My problem with the system is that, well, You can barely hear it outside my truck. And my truck is not too loud. Any help with this, is greatly appreciated. I think my problem may be my wiring, it is wired with 8 gauge. Maybe a lack of power?-KP
swez on 04/18/2004 21:02:20
OK, these subs are opposing each other if I get your message on the sub facing issues. In the enclosure, is there a divider board so that each sub has its own sealed enclosure? It (they) should! If not, try disconnecting 1 subwoofer electrically from the circuit. If the bass sounds better with only one woofer connected, you need to change the polarity wiring on 1 sub as the subs are fighting each other, not working together.
To make this much easier to work with, you can parallel wire each sub (2 ohms) and run 1 sub per channel. Yes, you will have 2 LP filters and gain controls to set up, but this will give you the same power from the amp to subs and a lot easier to troublshoot as well.
As for LP filters, 80-100 Hz is a good place for most applications. Your gain controls on the amp, should match the HU output voltage from the RCA's. Generally 2.0 - 4.0 volts is about right. (+/- 0.5 volts) Depends on your present HU. (which is?)
There is an FAQ on tweaking subs. Have a look:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Swez
PS Yes, do use #4 gage power wire & ground here as you are now starving the amp for power.
Tinker18 on 04/18/2004 21:08:40
No, my subs are not facing back to back, one on passenger side, back left, on the driver side, front right. My head unit right now, which i am upgrading in a month is a Sony MD player. I'll have to get the product ID. As far as two ohms, that is originally how it was wired. I could not turn up the volume or the amp would shut off. no divider in the box.-KP
swez on 04/19/2004 12:19:06
OK... now we are getting somewhere... these subs do not have a divider panel so both subs are in one box. Even though one is firing out to front passenger side right, the other is firing to rear behind drivers side left. Is that correct?
When woofers are not enclosed in separate chambers, the rear bass waves generated by both subs are out of phase in opposing forces. This will dramatically reduce bass output from both subs as they are cancelling each other out. Hense, very poor bass response, low SPL and not much low end.
To overcome this phenomena, you will need to reverse the wiring polarity on 1 sub to improve this situation. The reason I suggested removing one sub (electrically) from the amp, if the bass gets better with one sub, then both... the subs are OUT OF PHASE !!!. One woofer is cancelling out the other.
BTW, if you have 4+4 ohn DVC's and a 2 channel amp, you can run each sub at 2 ohms. But the amp has to be set up in 2 channel mode... NOT MONO BRIDGED MODE. This amp will handle a 2 ohm load, only when used in Stereo mode.. NOT BRIDGED MONO MODE.
Do you get whjat I am driving at? Even if you do not... disconnect 1 sub (electrically) and listen to the difference. If bass sounds better with only 1 sub connected to amp... change wiring polarity on the other sub and you are good to go.
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/20/2004 18:27:43
I understand what you are saying, and i now understand why it wouldn't handle the 2 ohm load, b/c it was bridged, can I just switch the wires around on the amp leading to one sub? or do I have to actually do something else. I am unsure of how EXACTLY to reverse the polarity.-kp
cybersailor420 on 04/20/2004 18:32:21
yep, that's all it takes. negative goes to positive, positve goes to negative. presto-chango, polarity reversed!
swez on 04/20/2004 20:13:30
Depends on how the subs are wired to amp and/or to each other.
If this box has 2 sets of speaker terminals, the swap is easy... just change one set of speaker wires as noted by cyber and listen to the difference.
If the subs are wired together inside the box and only 1 pair of wires out to amp, you have to pull one sub and switch Neg/Pos wires on only 1 sub.
Good luck and come back to tell us you now have the slammin bass you expected.
asplundher on 04/20/2004 20:50:49
If the amp is bridgable, then with the dual voice coils wired in series to 8 ohms, then both pair paralleled to a final 4 ohms there should be no problem.
As far as the divider issue, wire one sub out of phase with the other. This type of setup should decrease distortion somewhat. Output will probably be not as great as a compound setup but, should be better than what you had. I will lookup some more on the effects of that kind of setup and give you more info later.
Tinker18 on 04/20/2004 21:01:17
thank you all, but....well..... heheh, we now have a new problem. My subs are now wired at 2 ohms in phase and they sound awesome, the only problem now is, well, since I hooked my subs up, ALL my 4x6's(in dash and behind seat) quit working. no sound what so ever. Any ideas?-KP
swez on 04/21/2004 07:15:41
My...my, out of the frying pan and into the fire huh? OK, do you have these speakers running off the HU or is there an amp powering them? Also, are these aftermarket or stock speakers you have now?
Good job fixing your bass engine.... say more about the new problem.
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/21/2004 16:36:27
no kidding, as of right now, the speakers are running off the HU, the speakers in front are aftermarket orion 4x6's, which were in the truck when I bought it, but as far as I can tell, the rear 4x6's are stock. No signal is getting to ANY of the four speakers, but my amp(for my subs) is recieving the signal just fine. I have checked the fuses both in my fuse box and on the rear of the HU and both are fine. This is definitly a problem that has never happened to me before. Help?-KP-THINK.brbrok, i just went out to my truck and tried to start it, when i turned the key to the ignition i could hear a little sound in my rear speaker, but not music, like a screech. also, why does my bass sound like it's a punch instead of sounding normal when turned up loud? it sounds like its tight bass instead of deep bass. im sooo ready just to take the damn truck to the sudio shop and say "here fix it"br
saintanddolphin on 04/21/2004 20:15:04
Sounds like it could be RCA wire short.Unplug RCAs from the sub amp and see what happens.
Mike
saintanddolphin on 04/21/2004 20:31:37
On second thought you would have to unplug RCAs from the HU
Tinker18 on 04/22/2004 16:21:15
I think I may have figured it out. Not sure. When i rewired my subs, I ACCIDENTLY touched my ground and remote wire together. I'm thinking that maybe it shorted out and now the remote wire is grounding out to the frame, and since the remote wire is hooked up to the HU it might possibly have fried the circuit for my speakers? any thoughts on this? I checked the RCA cables, and they are fine, yet when they are disconnected from my amp, and i turn the HU off, the subs still move-one time- like one little bump. any suggestions as to why this is happening also?-KPbr
compvr15s on 04/23/2004 11:18:18
i have had that happen where my subs still worked and my speakers didnt. you may have fried your internal amp on the HU. best thing to do for your speakers is to take a known good speaker and hook it up in place of one of your 4x6s if still have problem then may be wiring or HU malfunction. check to make sure your grounds are good, that thump you here is common, im not exactly sure what causes it, this may be a grounding issue as well. good luck
Tinker18 on 04/23/2004 16:13:47
thanks any one else have an idea?
saintanddolphin on 04/24/2004 08:26:44
I checked the RCA cables, and they are fine, yet when they are disconnected from my amp, and i turn the HU off, the subs still move-one time- like one little bump. any suggestions as to why this is happening also?-KPbr
The reason your subs move when you turn off the HU is because your amp does not have an internal capacitor to store power therfore the amp will dissapate the extra power through the path of least resistance,your subs.This common an not an issue unless it is a violent excursion.Some less expensive wires will cause this also.
I think Compvr is right.If your RCA cables are OK,you may have shorted your HU speaker channels but you would probably not be able to detect bad RCAs with a visual inspection.
I would suggest using a known good set of RCAs and re-test.
If you shorted your remote wire I would think that the HUs fuse would blow before catostrophic failure of the unit.
Mike THINK
Tinker18 on 04/24/2004 11:29:25
ok, i will, but im curiuous as to how the rca cables could affect my other speakers? thanks for your help, and sorry for all the questions.
swez on 04/25/2004 12:33:39
I think you may have damaged the HU amplifiers when you shorted the wiring mentioned. The best you can do right now, is remove the HU and bench test it with other speakers. If you get no sound from the HU amps, repair time for the HU. May have blown output or preamp transistors. Not a job for a rookie.
Also, with the HU removed, get an ohm meter and measure the resistance between Pos & Gnd on each speaker and record the ohmic readings. If any one of these speaker line read below ~3.0 ohms, you have a bad speaker or wiring problems in that location.
Swez
-KP
Replies (23)
swez on 04/18/2004 09:27:19
This is a tough call as we don't have real details on how Bahn rates efficiency numbers on their subs. The RMS ratings are usually accurate for Bahn subs and amps. What sub model are you using here and how many cf is your enclosure? (Ported or Sealed?)
That Lanzar amp may be your weak link. What is the model number and type of amp used here? ( 2 Channel, Mono or other?)
Lanzar makes decent gear, but they tend to over rate their output figures.
This, coupled with how the subs are setup, (wiring to amp and enclosure) may be the root of your dissatisfaction. What is your biggest complaint about what you have now?
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/18/2004 13:12:13
Aw1251Q=sub ID. My enclosure is almost 2 cu. ft. sealed. Amp is a Vibe 258 2 ch. It's wired in a series parralel at 4 ohms. my biggest complaint about it is that it doesn't sound as good as I think it should. The subs are DVC 4 ohm. I want to change my subs and amp, but I'm not sure what to go with. KP
blacktallon2000 on 04/18/2004 14:15:37
You'd be better off keeping the Audiobahn subs. They are very effecient and in my opinion they sound better than the infinity subs you mentioned. is the box volume 2 Cuf per sub ? or is it a combined calculation. The manufacturers specs for this sub is minimum 0.9 Cuf and maximum 1.6 Cuf with 50% fiberfill. If your box is too big or too small the sound will not be what it should.
swez on 04/18/2004 20:11:41
Just curious.. which way are the subs facing in your vehicle now? Also, what is the LP filter and amp gain settings on the amp? This may just be a setup problem and not so much an equipment issue.
Can you explain your main complaint with the system as is now?
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/18/2004 20:40:58
My enclosure is 1 cu. ft per sub, and one sub is facing left, and one right. I'm not sure of the LP filter, as I haven't looked at it lately but gain settings? Don't know what that is. I've heard the Infinity Kappa Perfect 12's and my subs have nothing on them. My problem with the system is that, well, You can barely hear it outside my truck. And my truck is not too loud. Any help with this, is greatly appreciated. I think my problem may be my wiring, it is wired with 8 gauge. Maybe a lack of power?-KP
swez on 04/18/2004 21:02:20
OK, these subs are opposing each other if I get your message on the sub facing issues. In the enclosure, is there a divider board so that each sub has its own sealed enclosure? It (they) should! If not, try disconnecting 1 subwoofer electrically from the circuit. If the bass sounds better with only one woofer connected, you need to change the polarity wiring on 1 sub as the subs are fighting each other, not working together.
To make this much easier to work with, you can parallel wire each sub (2 ohms) and run 1 sub per channel. Yes, you will have 2 LP filters and gain controls to set up, but this will give you the same power from the amp to subs and a lot easier to troublshoot as well.
As for LP filters, 80-100 Hz is a good place for most applications. Your gain controls on the amp, should match the HU output voltage from the RCA's. Generally 2.0 - 4.0 volts is about right. (+/- 0.5 volts) Depends on your present HU. (which is?)
There is an FAQ on tweaking subs. Have a look:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Swez
PS Yes, do use #4 gage power wire & ground here as you are now starving the amp for power.
Tinker18 on 04/18/2004 21:08:40
No, my subs are not facing back to back, one on passenger side, back left, on the driver side, front right. My head unit right now, which i am upgrading in a month is a Sony MD player. I'll have to get the product ID. As far as two ohms, that is originally how it was wired. I could not turn up the volume or the amp would shut off. no divider in the box.-KP
swez on 04/19/2004 12:19:06
OK... now we are getting somewhere... these subs do not have a divider panel so both subs are in one box. Even though one is firing out to front passenger side right, the other is firing to rear behind drivers side left. Is that correct?
When woofers are not enclosed in separate chambers, the rear bass waves generated by both subs are out of phase in opposing forces. This will dramatically reduce bass output from both subs as they are cancelling each other out. Hense, very poor bass response, low SPL and not much low end.
To overcome this phenomena, you will need to reverse the wiring polarity on 1 sub to improve this situation. The reason I suggested removing one sub (electrically) from the amp, if the bass gets better with one sub, then both... the subs are OUT OF PHASE !!!. One woofer is cancelling out the other.
BTW, if you have 4+4 ohn DVC's and a 2 channel amp, you can run each sub at 2 ohms. But the amp has to be set up in 2 channel mode... NOT MONO BRIDGED MODE. This amp will handle a 2 ohm load, only when used in Stereo mode.. NOT BRIDGED MONO MODE.
Do you get whjat I am driving at? Even if you do not... disconnect 1 sub (electrically) and listen to the difference. If bass sounds better with only 1 sub connected to amp... change wiring polarity on the other sub and you are good to go.
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/20/2004 18:27:43
I understand what you are saying, and i now understand why it wouldn't handle the 2 ohm load, b/c it was bridged, can I just switch the wires around on the amp leading to one sub? or do I have to actually do something else. I am unsure of how EXACTLY to reverse the polarity.-kp
cybersailor420 on 04/20/2004 18:32:21
yep, that's all it takes. negative goes to positive, positve goes to negative. presto-chango, polarity reversed!
swez on 04/20/2004 20:13:30
Depends on how the subs are wired to amp and/or to each other.
If this box has 2 sets of speaker terminals, the swap is easy... just change one set of speaker wires as noted by cyber and listen to the difference.
If the subs are wired together inside the box and only 1 pair of wires out to amp, you have to pull one sub and switch Neg/Pos wires on only 1 sub.
Good luck and come back to tell us you now have the slammin bass you expected.
asplundher on 04/20/2004 20:50:49
If the amp is bridgable, then with the dual voice coils wired in series to 8 ohms, then both pair paralleled to a final 4 ohms there should be no problem.
As far as the divider issue, wire one sub out of phase with the other. This type of setup should decrease distortion somewhat. Output will probably be not as great as a compound setup but, should be better than what you had. I will lookup some more on the effects of that kind of setup and give you more info later.
Tinker18 on 04/20/2004 21:01:17
thank you all, but....well..... heheh, we now have a new problem. My subs are now wired at 2 ohms in phase and they sound awesome, the only problem now is, well, since I hooked my subs up, ALL my 4x6's(in dash and behind seat) quit working. no sound what so ever. Any ideas?-KP
swez on 04/21/2004 07:15:41
My...my, out of the frying pan and into the fire huh? OK, do you have these speakers running off the HU or is there an amp powering them? Also, are these aftermarket or stock speakers you have now?
Good job fixing your bass engine.... say more about the new problem.
Swez
Tinker18 on 04/21/2004 16:36:27
no kidding, as of right now, the speakers are running off the HU, the speakers in front are aftermarket orion 4x6's, which were in the truck when I bought it, but as far as I can tell, the rear 4x6's are stock. No signal is getting to ANY of the four speakers, but my amp(for my subs) is recieving the signal just fine. I have checked the fuses both in my fuse box and on the rear of the HU and both are fine. This is definitly a problem that has never happened to me before. Help?-KP-THINK.brbrok, i just went out to my truck and tried to start it, when i turned the key to the ignition i could hear a little sound in my rear speaker, but not music, like a screech. also, why does my bass sound like it's a punch instead of sounding normal when turned up loud? it sounds like its tight bass instead of deep bass. im sooo ready just to take the damn truck to the sudio shop and say "here fix it"br
saintanddolphin on 04/21/2004 20:15:04
Sounds like it could be RCA wire short.Unplug RCAs from the sub amp and see what happens.
Mike
saintanddolphin on 04/21/2004 20:31:37
On second thought you would have to unplug RCAs from the HU
Tinker18 on 04/22/2004 16:21:15
I think I may have figured it out. Not sure. When i rewired my subs, I ACCIDENTLY touched my ground and remote wire together. I'm thinking that maybe it shorted out and now the remote wire is grounding out to the frame, and since the remote wire is hooked up to the HU it might possibly have fried the circuit for my speakers? any thoughts on this? I checked the RCA cables, and they are fine, yet when they are disconnected from my amp, and i turn the HU off, the subs still move-one time- like one little bump. any suggestions as to why this is happening also?-KPbr
compvr15s on 04/23/2004 11:18:18
i have had that happen where my subs still worked and my speakers didnt. you may have fried your internal amp on the HU. best thing to do for your speakers is to take a known good speaker and hook it up in place of one of your 4x6s if still have problem then may be wiring or HU malfunction. check to make sure your grounds are good, that thump you here is common, im not exactly sure what causes it, this may be a grounding issue as well. good luck
Tinker18 on 04/23/2004 16:13:47
thanks any one else have an idea?
saintanddolphin on 04/24/2004 08:26:44
I checked the RCA cables, and they are fine, yet when they are disconnected from my amp, and i turn the HU off, the subs still move-one time- like one little bump. any suggestions as to why this is happening also?-KPbr
The reason your subs move when you turn off the HU is because your amp does not have an internal capacitor to store power therfore the amp will dissapate the extra power through the path of least resistance,your subs.This common an not an issue unless it is a violent excursion.Some less expensive wires will cause this also.
I think Compvr is right.If your RCA cables are OK,you may have shorted your HU speaker channels but you would probably not be able to detect bad RCAs with a visual inspection.
I would suggest using a known good set of RCAs and re-test.
If you shorted your remote wire I would think that the HUs fuse would blow before catostrophic failure of the unit.
Mike THINK
Tinker18 on 04/24/2004 11:29:25
ok, i will, but im curiuous as to how the rca cables could affect my other speakers? thanks for your help, and sorry for all the questions.
swez on 04/25/2004 12:33:39
I think you may have damaged the HU amplifiers when you shorted the wiring mentioned. The best you can do right now, is remove the HU and bench test it with other speakers. If you get no sound from the HU amps, repair time for the HU. May have blown output or preamp transistors. Not a job for a rookie.
Also, with the HU removed, get an ohm meter and measure the resistance between Pos & Gnd on each speaker and record the ohmic readings. If any one of these speaker line read below ~3.0 ohms, you have a bad speaker or wiring problems in that location.
Swez
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