A lot of headUnits such as Pioneer's deh-p400mp, allow you to control high and lowpass filters indepenantly for the rear and front speakers (eg to play the bass through the rear and the vocals up front).
How do you maintain this control when hooking up a 4ch amp? Do you connect a seperate rca for the front 2 channels and one for the rear? Iv'e never fitted an amp so i'm a bit confused on how the seperate signals get there.
PS. My HU also gives you control of the subwoofer level, but does this mean it has to be on an independant amp, or could you stil control it through a 5Channel setup? same sort of question i know...
Replies (9)
Swez on 05/15/2003 12:07:49
The HU crossovers are a nice feature, but most good amps have them as well. The main advantage using HU xovers, is that you can adjust the xovers on the fly to get the best possible sound for your system.
Is best to have a 4 channel amp, or a pair of 2 channels so you can control output and balance of the entire interior souind stage. This means 4 RCA lines to the amp(s) from the HU for maximum control of fade and R/L balance.
Better HU's, have a sub out feature and these are nice to drive the sub system and also control sub output from the driver's seat... very convienent this way... but the subs will need to be amped adequately to your taste.
Some 5 channels amps are not too bad in performance, but the sub channel is often weak and these amps are very expensive. Also, if one channel goes out... the whole amp is lost to the repair shop and no tunes til it comes back. A separate bass amp is usually a better way to go and may cost notably less.
Do you have a system in mind to date (HU, Amps, speakers & sub etc) and what sort of budget is available? With this information, we can steer you into some very good options and help you figure out the install process as well.
Swez
md4374 on 05/15/2003 19:25:39
Thanks for the tips. Basically I'm more interested in sound Quality rather than nose-bleedin' power, so my ideal system is:
A pioneer deh-p9400mp HU,
6 1/2" components up front,
6x9's on an MDF shelf in the rear, (approx 250w peak)
Possibly a 12" sub depending on cash.
I wanna amplify the front speakers, and maybe bridge the remaining 2channels to the sub, leaving the HU to power the 6x9's.
What do U think?
Swez on 05/16/2003 16:02:12
Well, I think you have a good plan in mind... I too am an SQ'er and if it happends to get loud as I play... OK, a bonus!
If you want a clean system, that does not run out of gas when you dial it up, figure ~50 watts RMS (min) per speaker to front & rear speakers. There are no HU's out there at the present, that can deliver that kind of power... so amping is your answer.
Now, have found a really sweet deal on a High end SQ set of Comps for you to look at: www.the zeb.com
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
Specifically, the CL-61a for $150.00 a pair is an incredible deal. They typically sell for $250.00 a pair or higher. I would not wait too long on this one.... at this price for CDT Comps, they may not last long
As for the rear speakers, can do full range or midbass only. Depends on your taste. I prefer full range in the rear and if you plan to run these off the HU amps, expect a -4/6dB loss as compared to front outputs... but that may not be a real issue, if the rear speakers used are high efficiency.
I picked up a set of cheaper American Pro 4-ways for $50.00 a set and was very pleasantly surprised at how good they sound with only HU power. These speakers are pretty massive and require a deep pocket to install as the magnets are larger than usual.... but that is part of why they have such high output at low power.
http://www.justcarspeakers.com
American Pro: VS1469C
4 WAY 6"X9"
150 WATT RMS
CHROME BASKET AND CONE
BUTYL RUBBER SURROUND
1" NEODYMIUM TWEETER
2.5" MIDRANGE
30 OZ MAGNET
45HZ-20KHZ
SENSITIVITY 91 dB @ 1w/1m
As for a good 4 channel amp with clean power and both hi/lo pass filters, a lot of SQ guys on a budget are using US acoustics. They have a 65 & 85 x 4 RMS version. Look here: $122.00/172.00 respectively
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/us_acoustics.html
Note: These amps are rated @ 12.9 volts for rated output, so they can actually do more than rated if your car ALT can put out a steady 13.5 volts. These amps are made very well. I have the USX-4065 model and many of the guys I have talked to, are using 2 & 4 channel versions. For subs, (2100/2150) we all agree this is a great amp at a value price.
As for a sub, a single 12" with 100-300 RMS amping power will do nicely. Look here: http://www.justwoofers.com/
The Infinity Reference 1220W: $65.00 each
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohms
Power Handling: 300WRMS/1200W peak
Sensitivity @ 2.83V/1m: 92dB
Frequency Response: 20Hz - 800Hz
Mounting Depth: 6-1/8" (156mm)
Cut-Out Diameter: 11-1/8" (283mm)
For this sub, a 1.25 cf (+/- 10% OK) sealed enclosure works very well and this sub can go very low too. The fusion fe-12S is 1.2 cf and has polyfill already included. $85.00 + S&H. This will work. http://www.justwoofers.com/
If you are handy with wood working and have the tools, can make your own box for under ~$40.00... maybe less. Looking at ~1/2 sheet of 3/4" MDF, some glew, screws and a diagram of the panel cuts. In fact, Home Depot will cut your panels to size for ~$0.50/cut. All you would have to do is assemble and carpet the box and add hardware. The tricky part in making the box, is the sub hole cutout.
A router w/ circle cutting jig is best, but a RotoZip w/ compass cutter will work fine too.... just go slow on the cutting. A free hand jiz saw is hard to control... but will do in a pinch.
How does all this sound to you so far? Under $500.00 for the whole kit... not a bad system.
Swez
PS If you bridged the rear channels of a typical 4 channel for your sub, you'll need a 4 ohm driver. Anything lower than 4 ohms will be hard on the amps.
md4374 on 05/17/2003 07:01:09
Nice one Swez, I'll get on to the sites. Only problem is i live in the UK, so i'll have to check if they ship overseas - it makes me cry seeing just how cheap everything is over in the States.
PS I'm not not too sharp on my knowledge of Ohm loads, can you switch most amps between 2 and 4 ohms? What do you mean by a 'driver'?
Swez on 05/17/2003 08:19:39
Driver = speaker, subwoofer, midrange or tweeter... all are drivers as they reproduce audio from an amplifier
Ohms = a unit of resistance. In amps, we choose the resistance of the speaker(s) to get the optimal output from a given amp. The amp responds automatically to power the load, based on the resistance of the speaker(s) connected to it.
Yes, things may well be cheaper in the USA as we mass produce many things or import in huge quantities. Plus, I would think our tax structure is not as high as what you may see.
Like gasoline for example, the average price per gallon in my area is about $1.45 (~$0.38/l) for 87 octane. Of that amount, about $0.42 are taxes. Plus, our income tax ranges from 18-55%, depending on how much we earn annually.
How does that stack up with what folks in the UK pay? THINK
If you cannot get what is listed above in the UK, am sure there are other sites in the UK that sell similar products. Have you found any of them in your web searches?
Swez
md4374 on 05/17/2003 19:35:53
Income tax is roughly the same, but its the VAT (Value added tax) thats the real killer - goods are already overpriced, then 17.5% VAT is added on top. Fuel is about 80p per litre (you'll have to do the math) which is increasing all the time. We all drive like 1 Litre cars over here and it'll still cost you £35-50 to fill up....
Anyway, back to the hardware:
CDT audio and US Accoustics are not brands we're familiar with over here, but those sites you showed me do ship internationally which is very tempting, although the holding period at Customs and the added import tax isn't pretty.
Still, the info you listed have given me some ideas on what to look for in alternatives - and more importantly how to avoid screwing up!
PS. Am definately gonna run the 6x9's from the HU (I've got a Fiat Punto Sporting, which is pretty small you see). I've seen a set of Pioneer TS-A6958 6x9's on offer for £50 (see how we suffer!), if you know of them do you think they'll run well at low power levels like you mentioned with the American Pro's?
Swez on 05/17/2003 20:13:09
The Pioneers I found were:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/CarProducts/CarProductDetails/0,1429,1466,00.html
I do not see anything on A6958's so am assuming a typo? Not a bad product and except for the power handling is much lower than The AM Pros.... Got a thought for you to chew on....
Since you have a very small car, why not eliminate the rear speakers all together and just run a quality set of 2-way Component speakers in the front and sub in rear. Lots of guys do the same thing here when they have smaller vehicles and claim it all sounds pretty good when balanced out properly.
Your HU can control the sub from the rear channel RCA outputs
and the amp can manage the LP filtering as well. A decent 4 channel amp will do the job and save you the cost of 6x9's in the rear. If you feel that there is a major loss of sound staging w/o rear speakers, can always use a small set coaxials to add that dimension and run these off the HU amps. Does that appeal to you?
Finally, there are a lot of very good audio makers in the UK. I may not be as familiar with these brands, but if you find a few sites that offer something of interest, pass me the links and I'll have a look for you. Am sure you can find web sites that sell Pioneer, Rockford, Infinity, HiFonics.
Wonder if there is a way to obtain products desired here, and mail them via Air to you and not have a big hassle with Customs. You know, Christmas presents and the like.... do they have to pass through Customs? I dunno?
Swez
PS If you wish to contact me direct via email, feel free to do so. My email is: swezdp@juno.com
md4374 on 05/18/2003 12:31:22
Yeah, i was in two minds about the rear speakers. but i think i'll need something for th rear stage, just for fill if nothing else. (To be honest i started building a MDF replica shelf about a year ago and don't want to give up on it now! backwards logic, i know)
Oh, and i did give you the wrong model number, it should be TS-A6988
300w peak, 4 way.
UK sites:
caraudiocentre.co.uk
incar-discount.co.uk
caraudiodiscount.com
I've had i quick look and its enough to get me b****hing about prices again, sorry! Have a look, its been a while since iv'e gone through in detail but i'm pretty sure they're quoting retail. Internet shopping hasn't really caught on over here, so you REALLY have to search for a decent offer.
You were right, those CDT components were a great deal and the only way i can think of getting them is to have a friend order them and send them over as a 'gift'. I know a friend-of-a-friend who lives in Jersey i could try them...How do customs know if the package is a gift or not anyhow? Do they have specific labeling when ordering from retailers? zeb.com use UPS Worldwide to ship, had any dealings with them?
Swez on 05/18/2003 14:44:30
OK, we are on the same page of thinking here... get a quality product at a reasonable price and determine a way to limit excess taxation.
That idea of contacting your friend in Jersey is a good one. He/she may be able to order all you desire, repackage it and forward to UK as parcel post and skip the VAT etc...
I don't know the specifics on how this would be accomplished, but definitely worth looking into. BTW, you're not unique in high priced audio gear. I have a friend in Israel who claims the prices on gear there are horribly expensive too. They really get hit hard by taxation and Iraqi mssiles . Not sure which is worse! He also states that theft is a BIG problem too.
In the meantime, will have a look at those UK sites mentioned. Am curious what they carry and the costs.
...OK, I looked at all 3 sites and wish I knew the conversion factor between USD and Euro. I did recall reading that the Euro was climbing up fast this month in value as compared to the USD. Seems to me, it was 4 USD to 1 Euro??? could that be right? Will have to check that out in the financial pages to know for sure.
Are your costs stated in Euro dollars or British pound? I am not familiar with your currency, but THINK I can find a conversion table to cipher this out.
Swez
PS Since you are already building the rear deck enclosure for rear fill speakers, might as well press on with it.
PSS These sites are very limited in product offerings compared to what we see here in the US... MAD guess you already know that. GRIN USFLAG
How do you maintain this control when hooking up a 4ch amp? Do you connect a seperate rca for the front 2 channels and one for the rear? Iv'e never fitted an amp so i'm a bit confused on how the seperate signals get there.
PS. My HU also gives you control of the subwoofer level, but does this mean it has to be on an independant amp, or could you stil control it through a 5Channel setup? same sort of question i know...
Replies (9)
Swez on 05/15/2003 12:07:49
The HU crossovers are a nice feature, but most good amps have them as well. The main advantage using HU xovers, is that you can adjust the xovers on the fly to get the best possible sound for your system.
Is best to have a 4 channel amp, or a pair of 2 channels so you can control output and balance of the entire interior souind stage. This means 4 RCA lines to the amp(s) from the HU for maximum control of fade and R/L balance.
Better HU's, have a sub out feature and these are nice to drive the sub system and also control sub output from the driver's seat... very convienent this way... but the subs will need to be amped adequately to your taste.
Some 5 channels amps are not too bad in performance, but the sub channel is often weak and these amps are very expensive. Also, if one channel goes out... the whole amp is lost to the repair shop and no tunes til it comes back. A separate bass amp is usually a better way to go and may cost notably less.
Do you have a system in mind to date (HU, Amps, speakers & sub etc) and what sort of budget is available? With this information, we can steer you into some very good options and help you figure out the install process as well.
Swez
md4374 on 05/15/2003 19:25:39
Thanks for the tips. Basically I'm more interested in sound Quality rather than nose-bleedin' power, so my ideal system is:
A pioneer deh-p9400mp HU,
6 1/2" components up front,
6x9's on an MDF shelf in the rear, (approx 250w peak)
Possibly a 12" sub depending on cash.
I wanna amplify the front speakers, and maybe bridge the remaining 2channels to the sub, leaving the HU to power the 6x9's.
What do U think?
Swez on 05/16/2003 16:02:12
Well, I think you have a good plan in mind... I too am an SQ'er and if it happends to get loud as I play... OK, a bonus!
If you want a clean system, that does not run out of gas when you dial it up, figure ~50 watts RMS (min) per speaker to front & rear speakers. There are no HU's out there at the present, that can deliver that kind of power... so amping is your answer.
Now, have found a really sweet deal on a High end SQ set of Comps for you to look at: www.the zeb.com
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
Specifically, the CL-61a for $150.00 a pair is an incredible deal. They typically sell for $250.00 a pair or higher. I would not wait too long on this one.... at this price for CDT Comps, they may not last long
As for the rear speakers, can do full range or midbass only. Depends on your taste. I prefer full range in the rear and if you plan to run these off the HU amps, expect a -4/6dB loss as compared to front outputs... but that may not be a real issue, if the rear speakers used are high efficiency.
I picked up a set of cheaper American Pro 4-ways for $50.00 a set and was very pleasantly surprised at how good they sound with only HU power. These speakers are pretty massive and require a deep pocket to install as the magnets are larger than usual.... but that is part of why they have such high output at low power.
http://www.justcarspeakers.com
American Pro: VS1469C
4 WAY 6"X9"
150 WATT RMS
CHROME BASKET AND CONE
BUTYL RUBBER SURROUND
1" NEODYMIUM TWEETER
2.5" MIDRANGE
30 OZ MAGNET
45HZ-20KHZ
SENSITIVITY 91 dB @ 1w/1m
As for a good 4 channel amp with clean power and both hi/lo pass filters, a lot of SQ guys on a budget are using US acoustics. They have a 65 & 85 x 4 RMS version. Look here: $122.00/172.00 respectively
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/us_acoustics.html
Note: These amps are rated @ 12.9 volts for rated output, so they can actually do more than rated if your car ALT can put out a steady 13.5 volts. These amps are made very well. I have the USX-4065 model and many of the guys I have talked to, are using 2 & 4 channel versions. For subs, (2100/2150) we all agree this is a great amp at a value price.
As for a sub, a single 12" with 100-300 RMS amping power will do nicely. Look here: http://www.justwoofers.com/
The Infinity Reference 1220W: $65.00 each
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohms
Power Handling: 300WRMS/1200W peak
Sensitivity @ 2.83V/1m: 92dB
Frequency Response: 20Hz - 800Hz
Mounting Depth: 6-1/8" (156mm)
Cut-Out Diameter: 11-1/8" (283mm)
For this sub, a 1.25 cf (+/- 10% OK) sealed enclosure works very well and this sub can go very low too. The fusion fe-12S is 1.2 cf and has polyfill already included. $85.00 + S&H. This will work. http://www.justwoofers.com/
If you are handy with wood working and have the tools, can make your own box for under ~$40.00... maybe less. Looking at ~1/2 sheet of 3/4" MDF, some glew, screws and a diagram of the panel cuts. In fact, Home Depot will cut your panels to size for ~$0.50/cut. All you would have to do is assemble and carpet the box and add hardware. The tricky part in making the box, is the sub hole cutout.
A router w/ circle cutting jig is best, but a RotoZip w/ compass cutter will work fine too.... just go slow on the cutting. A free hand jiz saw is hard to control... but will do in a pinch.
How does all this sound to you so far? Under $500.00 for the whole kit... not a bad system.
Swez
PS If you bridged the rear channels of a typical 4 channel for your sub, you'll need a 4 ohm driver. Anything lower than 4 ohms will be hard on the amps.
md4374 on 05/17/2003 07:01:09
Nice one Swez, I'll get on to the sites. Only problem is i live in the UK, so i'll have to check if they ship overseas - it makes me cry seeing just how cheap everything is over in the States.
PS I'm not not too sharp on my knowledge of Ohm loads, can you switch most amps between 2 and 4 ohms? What do you mean by a 'driver'?
Swez on 05/17/2003 08:19:39
Driver = speaker, subwoofer, midrange or tweeter... all are drivers as they reproduce audio from an amplifier
Ohms = a unit of resistance. In amps, we choose the resistance of the speaker(s) to get the optimal output from a given amp. The amp responds automatically to power the load, based on the resistance of the speaker(s) connected to it.
Yes, things may well be cheaper in the USA as we mass produce many things or import in huge quantities. Plus, I would think our tax structure is not as high as what you may see.
Like gasoline for example, the average price per gallon in my area is about $1.45 (~$0.38/l) for 87 octane. Of that amount, about $0.42 are taxes. Plus, our income tax ranges from 18-55%, depending on how much we earn annually.
How does that stack up with what folks in the UK pay? THINK
If you cannot get what is listed above in the UK, am sure there are other sites in the UK that sell similar products. Have you found any of them in your web searches?
Swez
md4374 on 05/17/2003 19:35:53
Income tax is roughly the same, but its the VAT (Value added tax) thats the real killer - goods are already overpriced, then 17.5% VAT is added on top. Fuel is about 80p per litre (you'll have to do the math) which is increasing all the time. We all drive like 1 Litre cars over here and it'll still cost you £35-50 to fill up....
Anyway, back to the hardware:
CDT audio and US Accoustics are not brands we're familiar with over here, but those sites you showed me do ship internationally which is very tempting, although the holding period at Customs and the added import tax isn't pretty.
Still, the info you listed have given me some ideas on what to look for in alternatives - and more importantly how to avoid screwing up!
PS. Am definately gonna run the 6x9's from the HU (I've got a Fiat Punto Sporting, which is pretty small you see). I've seen a set of Pioneer TS-A6958 6x9's on offer for £50 (see how we suffer!), if you know of them do you think they'll run well at low power levels like you mentioned with the American Pro's?
Swez on 05/17/2003 20:13:09
The Pioneers I found were:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/CarProducts/CarProductDetails/0,1429,1466,00.html
I do not see anything on A6958's so am assuming a typo? Not a bad product and except for the power handling is much lower than The AM Pros.... Got a thought for you to chew on....
Since you have a very small car, why not eliminate the rear speakers all together and just run a quality set of 2-way Component speakers in the front and sub in rear. Lots of guys do the same thing here when they have smaller vehicles and claim it all sounds pretty good when balanced out properly.
Your HU can control the sub from the rear channel RCA outputs
and the amp can manage the LP filtering as well. A decent 4 channel amp will do the job and save you the cost of 6x9's in the rear. If you feel that there is a major loss of sound staging w/o rear speakers, can always use a small set coaxials to add that dimension and run these off the HU amps. Does that appeal to you?
Finally, there are a lot of very good audio makers in the UK. I may not be as familiar with these brands, but if you find a few sites that offer something of interest, pass me the links and I'll have a look for you. Am sure you can find web sites that sell Pioneer, Rockford, Infinity, HiFonics.
Wonder if there is a way to obtain products desired here, and mail them via Air to you and not have a big hassle with Customs. You know, Christmas presents and the like.... do they have to pass through Customs? I dunno?
Swez
PS If you wish to contact me direct via email, feel free to do so. My email is: swezdp@juno.com
md4374 on 05/18/2003 12:31:22
Yeah, i was in two minds about the rear speakers. but i think i'll need something for th rear stage, just for fill if nothing else. (To be honest i started building a MDF replica shelf about a year ago and don't want to give up on it now! backwards logic, i know)
Oh, and i did give you the wrong model number, it should be TS-A6988
300w peak, 4 way.
UK sites:
caraudiocentre.co.uk
incar-discount.co.uk
caraudiodiscount.com
I've had i quick look and its enough to get me b****hing about prices again, sorry! Have a look, its been a while since iv'e gone through in detail but i'm pretty sure they're quoting retail. Internet shopping hasn't really caught on over here, so you REALLY have to search for a decent offer.
You were right, those CDT components were a great deal and the only way i can think of getting them is to have a friend order them and send them over as a 'gift'. I know a friend-of-a-friend who lives in Jersey i could try them...How do customs know if the package is a gift or not anyhow? Do they have specific labeling when ordering from retailers? zeb.com use UPS Worldwide to ship, had any dealings with them?
Swez on 05/18/2003 14:44:30
OK, we are on the same page of thinking here... get a quality product at a reasonable price and determine a way to limit excess taxation.
That idea of contacting your friend in Jersey is a good one. He/she may be able to order all you desire, repackage it and forward to UK as parcel post and skip the VAT etc...
I don't know the specifics on how this would be accomplished, but definitely worth looking into. BTW, you're not unique in high priced audio gear. I have a friend in Israel who claims the prices on gear there are horribly expensive too. They really get hit hard by taxation and Iraqi mssiles . Not sure which is worse! He also states that theft is a BIG problem too.
In the meantime, will have a look at those UK sites mentioned. Am curious what they carry and the costs.
...OK, I looked at all 3 sites and wish I knew the conversion factor between USD and Euro. I did recall reading that the Euro was climbing up fast this month in value as compared to the USD. Seems to me, it was 4 USD to 1 Euro??? could that be right? Will have to check that out in the financial pages to know for sure.
Are your costs stated in Euro dollars or British pound? I am not familiar with your currency, but THINK I can find a conversion table to cipher this out.
Swez
PS Since you are already building the rear deck enclosure for rear fill speakers, might as well press on with it.
PSS These sites are very limited in product offerings compared to what we see here in the US... MAD guess you already know that. GRIN USFLAG
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