Maybe I should have posted this before I bought the new amplifier but I needed the upgrade anyway. I had a 800watt Pryamid amp that's been in the closet for a year. When I took it out and hook it up to my car, it will operate with little gain and at low volume, but when I increase either the protection light comes on.
At first I thought it was just a grounding problem and changed to the thick wire and changed grounding locations. But after a day of the same problems I ordered a new box and amp from ebay.
The amp is three years old and been in the closet for one of those years. I have two 12' JBL Woofers (not sure of the exact model) I"m sure this is a common problem. Can anyone help.
Replies (12)
swez on 04/6/2004 15:31:58
This frequently happens when the speaker ohm load is too low for the amp. If this is a 2 channel amp, amd you bridged it to MONO mode operation, have to use a 4 ohm load. ( or higher)
Typically, if you have dual subs that are 4 ohms each (single voice coil) need to wire 1 sub per channel in stereo mode... then adjust your gains to match HU RCA outputs. (2.0-4.0 volts typ.)
If you wnt to bridge the amp for maximum output, need a pair of 4+4 ohm DVC's, wired in series/parallel. That nets 4 ohms to a bridged amp.
If this does not answer your questions yet, give more details on amp (model #) and subs Make & model.
Swez
PS What gage wire are you using to feed this amp?
Noid on 04/6/2004 16:07:39
That could be the problem because the amp (Pyramid PB-448) is a 4 channel amp. I had the two 12's (Pioneer IMPP) that I was trying to bridge into the 4 channel amp. I never understood how "OHM's" worked. I figured it's just a setting that speakers have and you have to make sure its compatable with the amplifier.
I think the wire is an 8 gauge. I'm not sure because i went to home depot and the employee recommended a wire for me.
Problem is this is the same set up that I had a year ago. So at first I thought the speaker was bad, so a friend and I swapped to check. He had a Single Kicker in a box, but he same thing happen. then I increased the gauge on the ground from 12 to 8 (or the same wire used to power the amp) plus change the location from the screw that attaches the trunk lid to the mound where the trunk locks down. Same problem. I have a new JBL 1200.1 that was recommended by someone here. So when I get home I'll test that.
swez on 04/6/2004 20:08:34
You may want to keep that 4 channel and use as interior speaker amp. That's what it's designed for.
The JBL 1200.1... good to go at 1 or 2 ohm loads. You may have some light dimming with this amp unless you have a heavy duty electrical system. This amp will pull a steady 80A when you work it hard... can pull over 100A at full power. A #4 gage power line kit is needed and 80-100A fuse at BAT.
Those subs you have, are they single or dual voice coils? I see 2 types...
1. 4 ohm Single coil: http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/PIOTSW305C
2. 4+4 Dual coils:
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/PIOTSW300R
Both subs will handle 400 watts RMS each... so your amp can definitely send the cones into orbit if you get heavy on the volume knob.
Swez
PS This amp... is not a toy... nothing like your 4 channel. JBL puts out a full 1200 + watts RMS (~2400 peak watts) Your subs will need to be pretty strong to take all this amp can dish out.
Noid on 04/7/2004 12:52:05
Double checking everything, maybe it's the fuse. I reading other post and I noticed that my fuse is probably insufficient. You've been recommending 50 - 80 amp fuse and i have a measliy 30.
I'm taking your warning and waiting for my new woofers to arrive before I use the JBL amp. In the mean time, I'll work on getting the pyramid working.
Since all of my information is in this thread I'll ask one question.
1) what would be the ideal capacitor for this car/amp? I already have noticable light dimming on the HU and clock display when the amp is hooked up. I'm sure I'll need one , because I'm planning on adding a light kit very soon. (Also ordering a battery isolator and second battery next month)
swez on 04/7/2004 20:20:48
Your HU lights will dim and flash when the HU volume is above ~60% (if not sooner) depending on how much bass boost or EQ is used on the HU That is normal as the HU is running out of gas to provide that power to your internal amps. (not the 4 channel so much)
As for caps... they are a bandaid approach. Getting your new batteries and isolator kit should make a permanent fix to poser shortage issues.
Those Pioneer subs... the 1200.1 may be too strong for them and this amp draws over 100A at full power. That much output wattage will be very hard on your subs with minimal benefit to more SPL. You can easily use the JBL BP 600.1 for these subs ith very good results and not fear shreading your subs too.
This amp only draws ~50A of current, delivers 300 + watts RMS per sub and will be a lot easier on your car electricals. If you wanted more amping power later, can always add a 2nd 600.1. This amp is well priced off the net. About $200.00 off E-bay, a bit higher on other sites. Use a #4 wire kit with this amp, 60-80A fuse at BAT.
What fuse are you blowing here? Amp fuses or fuse at battery? What are the fuses used on this amp chassis? When the amp goes into protect... usually using the wrong ohm load (to low) for amp.
When bridging a 4 channel to a 2 cannel amp version, 4 ohms is the lowest you can go per channel. Usually, 1 sub per bridged channel is best. (4 ohm subs only)
Swez
Noid on 04/8/2004 12:07:33
The power wire is 10 gage.
The fuse at the battery is 30a
The fuse in the amp is 30a
The speaker is Pioneer IMPP 302F Freeair Series 4ohms Single Voice
I removed this from my 87' Chevy Celebrity a year ago. Now I'm trying to hook it up in my 97' Mirage. The hook up I had before was bridge the two IMPP's in the rear spot. Connect the Front Left/Right to my 6x9 in the rear of the car.
Now I'm trying to connect the same two speakers, bridged in the rear slots on the amp, but with out the 6x9's hooked up. When I turn my volume up above 16 of 33 with the gain just above 50%. The amp shuts down and the protection light comes on. Neither the fuse in at the battery or the fuse in the amp have blown.
I'll try to hook up the rear speaker in the Mirage like I had the 6x9's in the celebrity this evening. But I tried hooking up the subsseveral different ways and kept getting the same problem. I tried the JBL 1200.1 with a 12" kicker in a box and got the same problem. So I figure its the wiring.
I've ordered 4 gauge power wire with a 100 amp fuse&holder. The seller is offering a svr 33-12 for $65 with my order. From what I can tell this is a good deal, depending upon shipping. Next week I'll also be getting the battery isolater. Hopefully this will solve the problem but I'm stumped.
swez on 04/8/2004 13:09:02
The only way you can use that 4 channel to power a pair of subs is as followed:
1. Bridge the front channels (L&R) and connect 1 sub to that bridged channel
2. Bridge the rear channels (L&R) and connect 1 sub to that bridged channel
3. Set your amp gain at 50% or midpoint initially
4. Use the Low Pass filters on each half of the amp, set to ~80 Hz.
5. The #8 wire and ground is correct for this amp and 30A fusing is correct
How do you have your audio signals connected to the amp? There are 3 ways to do this:
1. Tap rear speaker wires (L&R) and feed to amp via input High signal terminals. There is a large signal voltage off you speakers in the range of 15-20 volts. The High signal inputs convert this voltage to a usable level, then feed the amplifier preamps etc.
2. RCA lines from the HU, connected to the RCA inputs at the amp. This signal is a lower voltage audio signal in the range of 1-4 volts. This is the best way to connect HU to amps.
3. Install a Line out converter kit, off the the HU speaker line outputs. This converts speaker level signals to RCA line levels.
Finally, be sure you have a bare metal ground to the car floor pan, seat belt bolts or other metal surface near the amp. If the ground is not a good one, it will not carry the power to the amp properly. Basically, a poor ground will limit full voltage getting to the amp and it will strain or shut down due to low voltage protection circuits.
You can easily test voltage coming into amp by probing the Main batteyr feed line to amp and its ground lug. This is a DC voltage and you should get a reading between 12.5 -14.4 volts here, when the car is running. If lower than 12.0 volts.... you have a power feed problem. Ie: poor ground, bad wire connection back to battery and fuse holder.
Swez
Noid on 04/11/2004 13:12:32
I have the amp connected to the HU by RCA cables.
I have the back 5 1/4 speakers connected to the Front right and left. Then have the rear bridged to a 12" MTX Bandpass box (cannot read the specifics)
I also tried connecting the sub on just the right or left rear channel not bridged.
I still get the same problem. I noticed that I only get this problem when the sub is connected. If I disconnect the sub i can turn the volume up way past the point where it shuts off with the sub connected.
Even with the 1200.1 the amp shuts down or goes into protection when the bass hits hard or the volume is up.
Could it be the size wire I'm using to the speakers? I believe they're a 16 or 18 gauge. Other wise it's something with the sub, right?
asplundher on 04/11/2004 13:29:16
The JBL 300.1 also would be a better choice for those Pioneers don't require a whole lot of power. I ran some off a Jensen KA-3/ 2 channel+mono block @200rms and they performed well. Plus the 300.1 only draws 29 amps.
Before you go to extremes for that mild setup start with checking the simple things first. You shouldn't have too go all out to run those subs. It might even be worth getting a pro to check out your setup and trouble shoot.
Noid on 04/11/2004 13:33:45
I ordered the JBL 1200.1 because I am going to order 2 audiobahn 12" that can handle alot more power. I am not planning on installing the 1200.1 perminately until i get the new subs. I only installed them to test and see if there was a problem with the amp itself.
swez on 04/11/2004 14:26:57
I think you have a bad sub ith there. Sounds like the voice coil is shorting out as you apply more power. That will send the/any amp into protect mode.
Pull your Pioneer subs and figure out which one is giving you problems. These are free air subs, so you can apply amp power to them w/o a box.
Swez
Noid on 04/21/2004 10:22:50
Okay you were right out of the 3 subs I have only one works. The other two short when the volume is turned up. Thanks for the help.
At first I thought it was just a grounding problem and changed to the thick wire and changed grounding locations. But after a day of the same problems I ordered a new box and amp from ebay.
The amp is three years old and been in the closet for one of those years. I have two 12' JBL Woofers (not sure of the exact model) I"m sure this is a common problem. Can anyone help.
Replies (12)
swez on 04/6/2004 15:31:58
This frequently happens when the speaker ohm load is too low for the amp. If this is a 2 channel amp, amd you bridged it to MONO mode operation, have to use a 4 ohm load. ( or higher)
Typically, if you have dual subs that are 4 ohms each (single voice coil) need to wire 1 sub per channel in stereo mode... then adjust your gains to match HU RCA outputs. (2.0-4.0 volts typ.)
If you wnt to bridge the amp for maximum output, need a pair of 4+4 ohm DVC's, wired in series/parallel. That nets 4 ohms to a bridged amp.
If this does not answer your questions yet, give more details on amp (model #) and subs Make & model.
Swez
PS What gage wire are you using to feed this amp?
Noid on 04/6/2004 16:07:39
That could be the problem because the amp (Pyramid PB-448) is a 4 channel amp. I had the two 12's (Pioneer IMPP) that I was trying to bridge into the 4 channel amp. I never understood how "OHM's" worked. I figured it's just a setting that speakers have and you have to make sure its compatable with the amplifier.
I think the wire is an 8 gauge. I'm not sure because i went to home depot and the employee recommended a wire for me.
Problem is this is the same set up that I had a year ago. So at first I thought the speaker was bad, so a friend and I swapped to check. He had a Single Kicker in a box, but he same thing happen. then I increased the gauge on the ground from 12 to 8 (or the same wire used to power the amp) plus change the location from the screw that attaches the trunk lid to the mound where the trunk locks down. Same problem. I have a new JBL 1200.1 that was recommended by someone here. So when I get home I'll test that.
swez on 04/6/2004 20:08:34
You may want to keep that 4 channel and use as interior speaker amp. That's what it's designed for.
The JBL 1200.1... good to go at 1 or 2 ohm loads. You may have some light dimming with this amp unless you have a heavy duty electrical system. This amp will pull a steady 80A when you work it hard... can pull over 100A at full power. A #4 gage power line kit is needed and 80-100A fuse at BAT.
Those subs you have, are they single or dual voice coils? I see 2 types...
1. 4 ohm Single coil: http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/PIOTSW305C
2. 4+4 Dual coils:
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/PIOTSW300R
Both subs will handle 400 watts RMS each... so your amp can definitely send the cones into orbit if you get heavy on the volume knob.
Swez
PS This amp... is not a toy... nothing like your 4 channel. JBL puts out a full 1200 + watts RMS (~2400 peak watts) Your subs will need to be pretty strong to take all this amp can dish out.
Noid on 04/7/2004 12:52:05
Double checking everything, maybe it's the fuse. I reading other post and I noticed that my fuse is probably insufficient. You've been recommending 50 - 80 amp fuse and i have a measliy 30.
I'm taking your warning and waiting for my new woofers to arrive before I use the JBL amp. In the mean time, I'll work on getting the pyramid working.
Since all of my information is in this thread I'll ask one question.
1) what would be the ideal capacitor for this car/amp? I already have noticable light dimming on the HU and clock display when the amp is hooked up. I'm sure I'll need one , because I'm planning on adding a light kit very soon. (Also ordering a battery isolator and second battery next month)
swez on 04/7/2004 20:20:48
Your HU lights will dim and flash when the HU volume is above ~60% (if not sooner) depending on how much bass boost or EQ is used on the HU That is normal as the HU is running out of gas to provide that power to your internal amps. (not the 4 channel so much)
As for caps... they are a bandaid approach. Getting your new batteries and isolator kit should make a permanent fix to poser shortage issues.
Those Pioneer subs... the 1200.1 may be too strong for them and this amp draws over 100A at full power. That much output wattage will be very hard on your subs with minimal benefit to more SPL. You can easily use the JBL BP 600.1 for these subs ith very good results and not fear shreading your subs too.
This amp only draws ~50A of current, delivers 300 + watts RMS per sub and will be a lot easier on your car electricals. If you wanted more amping power later, can always add a 2nd 600.1. This amp is well priced off the net. About $200.00 off E-bay, a bit higher on other sites. Use a #4 wire kit with this amp, 60-80A fuse at BAT.
What fuse are you blowing here? Amp fuses or fuse at battery? What are the fuses used on this amp chassis? When the amp goes into protect... usually using the wrong ohm load (to low) for amp.
When bridging a 4 channel to a 2 cannel amp version, 4 ohms is the lowest you can go per channel. Usually, 1 sub per bridged channel is best. (4 ohm subs only)
Swez
Noid on 04/8/2004 12:07:33
The power wire is 10 gage.
The fuse at the battery is 30a
The fuse in the amp is 30a
The speaker is Pioneer IMPP 302F Freeair Series 4ohms Single Voice
I removed this from my 87' Chevy Celebrity a year ago. Now I'm trying to hook it up in my 97' Mirage. The hook up I had before was bridge the two IMPP's in the rear spot. Connect the Front Left/Right to my 6x9 in the rear of the car.
Now I'm trying to connect the same two speakers, bridged in the rear slots on the amp, but with out the 6x9's hooked up. When I turn my volume up above 16 of 33 with the gain just above 50%. The amp shuts down and the protection light comes on. Neither the fuse in at the battery or the fuse in the amp have blown.
I'll try to hook up the rear speaker in the Mirage like I had the 6x9's in the celebrity this evening. But I tried hooking up the subsseveral different ways and kept getting the same problem. I tried the JBL 1200.1 with a 12" kicker in a box and got the same problem. So I figure its the wiring.
I've ordered 4 gauge power wire with a 100 amp fuse&holder. The seller is offering a svr 33-12 for $65 with my order. From what I can tell this is a good deal, depending upon shipping. Next week I'll also be getting the battery isolater. Hopefully this will solve the problem but I'm stumped.
swez on 04/8/2004 13:09:02
The only way you can use that 4 channel to power a pair of subs is as followed:
1. Bridge the front channels (L&R) and connect 1 sub to that bridged channel
2. Bridge the rear channels (L&R) and connect 1 sub to that bridged channel
3. Set your amp gain at 50% or midpoint initially
4. Use the Low Pass filters on each half of the amp, set to ~80 Hz.
5. The #8 wire and ground is correct for this amp and 30A fusing is correct
How do you have your audio signals connected to the amp? There are 3 ways to do this:
1. Tap rear speaker wires (L&R) and feed to amp via input High signal terminals. There is a large signal voltage off you speakers in the range of 15-20 volts. The High signal inputs convert this voltage to a usable level, then feed the amplifier preamps etc.
2. RCA lines from the HU, connected to the RCA inputs at the amp. This signal is a lower voltage audio signal in the range of 1-4 volts. This is the best way to connect HU to amps.
3. Install a Line out converter kit, off the the HU speaker line outputs. This converts speaker level signals to RCA line levels.
Finally, be sure you have a bare metal ground to the car floor pan, seat belt bolts or other metal surface near the amp. If the ground is not a good one, it will not carry the power to the amp properly. Basically, a poor ground will limit full voltage getting to the amp and it will strain or shut down due to low voltage protection circuits.
You can easily test voltage coming into amp by probing the Main batteyr feed line to amp and its ground lug. This is a DC voltage and you should get a reading between 12.5 -14.4 volts here, when the car is running. If lower than 12.0 volts.... you have a power feed problem. Ie: poor ground, bad wire connection back to battery and fuse holder.
Swez
Noid on 04/11/2004 13:12:32
I have the amp connected to the HU by RCA cables.
I have the back 5 1/4 speakers connected to the Front right and left. Then have the rear bridged to a 12" MTX Bandpass box (cannot read the specifics)
I also tried connecting the sub on just the right or left rear channel not bridged.
I still get the same problem. I noticed that I only get this problem when the sub is connected. If I disconnect the sub i can turn the volume up way past the point where it shuts off with the sub connected.
Even with the 1200.1 the amp shuts down or goes into protection when the bass hits hard or the volume is up.
Could it be the size wire I'm using to the speakers? I believe they're a 16 or 18 gauge. Other wise it's something with the sub, right?
asplundher on 04/11/2004 13:29:16
The JBL 300.1 also would be a better choice for those Pioneers don't require a whole lot of power. I ran some off a Jensen KA-3/ 2 channel+mono block @200rms and they performed well. Plus the 300.1 only draws 29 amps.
Before you go to extremes for that mild setup start with checking the simple things first. You shouldn't have too go all out to run those subs. It might even be worth getting a pro to check out your setup and trouble shoot.
Noid on 04/11/2004 13:33:45
I ordered the JBL 1200.1 because I am going to order 2 audiobahn 12" that can handle alot more power. I am not planning on installing the 1200.1 perminately until i get the new subs. I only installed them to test and see if there was a problem with the amp itself.
swez on 04/11/2004 14:26:57
I think you have a bad sub ith there. Sounds like the voice coil is shorting out as you apply more power. That will send the/any amp into protect mode.
Pull your Pioneer subs and figure out which one is giving you problems. These are free air subs, so you can apply amp power to them w/o a box.
Swez
Noid on 04/21/2004 10:22:50
Okay you were right out of the 3 subs I have only one works. The other two short when the volume is turned up. Thanks for the help.
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