I have just recently gotten into the building of my dream car. I was very much into car audio during high school but unable to afford the prices associated with being a car audio enthusiast. Now my means are much more suited to this sort of hobby.
This is my current setup
2003 Chevy Suburban LT
HU: Pioneer AVH-7500 DVD
2 JL Audio VR Series Tweeters in the front pillars facing the windshield.
2 JL Audio XR650-CSi in the front doors replacing the POS Bose factory setup.
2 JL Audio XR525-CXi Coaxial set in the rear doors
2 JL Audio TR350-CXi in the rear posts next to the hatch.
These sets are Powered by a JL Audio 450/4 Amplifier
The sub is a JL Audio ProWedge CLS112RG-W7
This is powered by a JL Audio 1000/1 Amplifier.
I have a 1 Farad Audiobahn Digital cap attached to the amlifiers.
I have 0 Gauge Stinger Pro Series wire running power from the Battery to the amplifiers which are mounted under the third row seat in a custom enclosure.
The Battery, and alternator grounds have 0 Gauge wire grounding them to the chasis.
The stock alternator is rated at 145 AMP's.
I am still using the stock battery.
The problem is when the system is played at 3/4 volume and the bass hits the dimming occurs. Also I notice a severe power drain when idling in traffic when this occurs. Voltage per the battery meter gets as low as ~10 volts before I start to turn the music down to avoid damage.
My install guys are recommending a new alternator from Stinger which costs approximately $1200 and is rated at 240 amps.
My concern is this is quite pricey for a simple alternator in my opinion. While I can afford to pay such a price for an alternator I am worried that this may not be the true problem. I have read some that the battery may truly be the problem. With this setup could the problem be cured by simply adding a more powerful battery?
I intend to add a couple headrest monitors, some neon underlighting, a playstation 2, and a navigation system. I am also thinking about adding a set of kick panels with an additional Jl Audio XR650-CSi set in it. Also a center channel speaker will be added for the better audio staging.
So as you can see the power usage for the car will be increasing beyond what is already in the car at this point in time so building for the future is the key here.
I also intend to work on the engine compartment at some later date so remaining factory like in the compartment is important so that I do not limit my options such as a supercharger and nitrous setup.
While much of this may sound like overkill my objective is to enjoy this vehicle for quite some time to come and to possible use it in some shows, mainly for SQ competitions. I appreciate the feel of the bass as well but fidelity always trumps raw power in my book.
If you have recommendations on placement as well, all advice will be accepted.
Replies (18)
uochronos on 02/25/2004 21:28:31
wow very nice set up sounds like other then the electrical youve got one killer system..
that is pricey in my opinion for a 240amp alternator.... but thats also a big brand alternator. you might look threw your local phone book. i know here in portland oregon we have at least one company that does custom alternators i'm getting a 250amp alternator for my 2003 ranger FX4 for 630$... i would not even know the existed except a good friends dad owns the place. so it may not hurt to take a whirl threw the yellow pages.
Raefin on 02/25/2004 21:36:35
I did some other research with a place called ohio generator and they have a 200 amp alternator available for $600 as well.
One other problem I failed to mention is a high pitched noise that comes from the HU after it warms up a bit. I know the fan does add some noise but this noise is very high pitched. Most people cannot even hear it but to me it is quite distinct. Any suggestions on going about rooting out the source of the problem?
swez on 02/25/2004 23:09:16
In your case, you may be better off adding a dedicated ALT & BAT for the audio/video system. Depends on how much room you have and if you are will to make such a drastic modification to your newer ride.
The 2nd electricals can power your amps and A/V gear while the stock system supports the HU and rest of the electricals. It's a cheaper option, most efficient but may have warrantee implications on a mod this exotic.
About the high pitch noise... try turning down your gains on the mids/highs amp. This may make that noise go away. If not, grounding the HU and amp that feeds the highs to same location, should clear it up.
Swez
Raefin on 02/26/2004 08:34:46
The gains are actually almost all the way down. My objective was to not push the amplifiers too much from the get go because they are not exactly cheap. The whine only starts up after driving a while so my assumption was that it is related to the fan in the HU.
I have no problem going with a second or even a third battery for the car if that is what it is going to take but setting up a two alternator system with custom belts may interfere with my intention to put a supercharger in the engine compartment. I do have quite a bit of room in the compartment but dealing with custom belts and what not seems like it could be a troublesome spot. I do not know if anyone has any experience with running a setup like that.
Of course I may have no choice is what you could be saying with respect to powering the setup properly. If that is the case do you have any recommendations on where to look to acquire such a setup?
cplkittle on 02/26/2004 09:05:47
The whine could also be attributed to a lengthy ground wire (ground loop cause of noise). Try to keep grounds under 2'.
I would try turning the gain up on the amplifiers a bit, this would eliminate the need for increased volume on the head unit, and may take out some of the noise. Also, the HU would not be working as hard by transferring some of the load to the amplifiers, and may not need the fan as often. The sound quality should not decrease in this case once the amp gains are balanced to each other, in fact, in my experience it should improve. My recommended balance point would be with the radio volume on the lowest setting (in most cases 1), from there adjust the gain on the amps so that the radio is not too loud to make a phone call or order at a drive through.
swez on 02/26/2004 09:19:27
Many of the DB Dragers use this type of arrangement. They have to as the number of sub amps employed is often 10 or more 1000 watt power plants. Yeah... WOW huh?
In your case, a good customizing shop that specializes in under the hood toys, would be a good option to start. You could also attend a few DB Drags and ask around as to how they accomplished this type of modification.
Also, would turbo charging be easier to do on this vehicle than a supercharger unit and still give the desired performance? Turbos are small, very efficient and give a nice kick of HP. Superchargers are large and bulky and need major mods in the intake system and pully mods. Either way, low compression pistons are often used in both applications if I understand their application right....it's been a while since I seen Superchargers used in place of turbos.
Lastly, you can identify that whine if it is the HU fan. A soda straw will work like a stythescope to help pinpoint the fan noise, if that is what it is. A little sound deadning material may help muffle that noise. But be careful not to block the air flows to same.
Swez
Raefin on 02/26/2004 09:28:54
Typical comfortable listening of my music is done around 5-10/40. This is when I hear the noise of the HU. If the volume is increased it overpowers the whine and you cannot discern it whatsoever from the rest of the music.
The ground wire may actually be longer than 2' due to the fact that it is a truck and has a distance to go to get to the body. I will have to check that out though.
ttocs on 02/26/2004 09:39:59
That is the exact system I have put in countless burbans at the shop I started working part time for 6 months ago... There are alot of them rolling around scottsdale, nothing less then 24's on them.... You have a spot under the hood for a second battery, and the stock system will alow for it. I wired one up last saterday for the exact problem. Get a good yellow top, replace both if you want the flash(sounds like you do). Did you fit the amps under the seat? I never worked with JL until I started at this shop. TOP OF THE LINE AMP....... They always send them off booming, never bring them back..
Raefin on 02/26/2004 09:56:44
The third row seat has just enough space to accomodate both amps side by side in a small amp rack which flushes against the bottom of the seat. Covered in vinyl to match the leather seats you cannot tell that there is anything under there for a complete stealth look.
Now with the addition of the extra battery is that sufficient to correct the dimming problem even with the addition of these extra components for the future?
Raefin on 02/26/2004 10:11:27
Swez,
The reason for the supercharger over the turbo is threefold. First, My friends and I have never owned a supercharger and have never had the chance to work on one before and would like to. Second, Our past experiences with Turbos have left a sour taste in my mouth. (My friend had an old Mitsubishi Starion with twin turbos which constantly detonated themselves, agreed user error but still) Lastly, A supercharger performs at the entire RPM range which gives heavy vehicles, such as my 6250+ lb truck more pull at low RPM's and actually increasing gas mileage in some instances. At least that is what I have read can occur.
My biggest concern is that I can go out and spend $1200 on a stinger alternator and then once the other equipment is put in that may not be enough. I am attempting to future proof as much as possible so I do not have to spend and then respend.
swez on 02/26/2004 14:14:46
Got it... planning is everything in this venture. Unfortunately, we cannot help you much on the engine mods... but the audio gear is what we do pretty well at.
Swez
riceman on 02/26/2004 16:42:36
maybe you should try using 4 gauge power wires with your setup i don't think theres no need for 0 gauge. yea it looks nice but i think its inpractical. what I'm trying to say is 4 gauge is like a garden hose and that's all you need but you put in 0 gauge that's like a firehose. the bigger the wire the more amperage it can carry and zero is the biggest you can get. try it out see if the dimming is reduced. I've noticed that once i switched to H.I.D xenon headlights the dimming in my car was drastically reduced i think the halogen bulbs were taking a heck of alot of power. my hid's power are regulated by the ballast and now my hid 's dont dim at all but there's still a little dimming on my other lights. try it out and post the results.
Relax_The_Mind on 02/26/2004 17:00:09
Superchargers are a lot more of a hassle to take care of... especially if its tweaked. Turbos come a dime a dozen nowadays and in some cases come almost as cheap as true cold air intake setups. heh...
I think you would be be better off with the dedicated A/V piggy backed alternator and battery setup as mentioned above. Some db drag cars have upwards (from what ive seen) of 13 alternators.
If that car is anything like my parents 2003 Yukon XL... You may have little options on the alternators as it is kind of cramped.
Nice ride... tvs make 13 hour roads trips feel like an hour.
RTM
Raefin on 02/26/2004 22:36:25
I am a bit worried about the two alternator setup. There is probably room to get a second one in there along with the additional battery but that is really gonna cut out some of the extra space. I liked the car as well because pretty much everything was easy enough to get to.
It should be identical to the 2003 Yukon XL though. So perhaps there isn't as much room as I am thinking there is. Been a few months since I have been in there.
I would think that the 0 gauge wire would not be causing too much of a drain on the system if only because the amplifier should only be drawing what power it needs. Also with any additional adds I will probably be using the entire 0 gauge because remember this is a Suburban so that is a long run from the engine compartment back to the third row of seats.
If I did go with a two alternator setup, would that mean two high output alternators would be necessary along with two Optima batteries?
uochronos on 02/27/2004 04:50:56
0 gauge seems fine to me especialy as far as your going you really cant go too big on the wire and your right the amps only pulling what it needs infact bigger wire threwout the system and between alternator and battery should help reduce dimming i would think... also for the size amp your running i wouldnt use less then 2gauge myself 1000watts is a good chunk of power and thats just for the sub... also 0 gauge is not the largest wire there is 00 and so on. although not used very often....
swez on 02/27/2004 12:52:42
You can try adding a 2nd battery (Optima Yellow) to the exsisting system and dedicate that battery via a battery isolator to your audio amps. It will act as a nice current storage buffer to feed the amps, but it too, needs to be charged as it gives up power to the amps. That puts additional strain on your alternator too.
However, the isolator allows the ALT to switch back and forth between battery that needs to be fed most. This may work since you have a 145A ALT now. It's worth a try... before taking the next big step... a 2nd ALT. Can run your small amps & HU/AV on stock battery feeds and the sub amp(s) off the Yellow top.
Swez
PS Get the biggest CCA rated Yellow top you can find. Not cheap.. but cheaper than a 2nd ALT.
Raefin on 02/27/2004 13:05:08
Best CCA rating on a yellow top that I see is 900. Is that good enough? Or should I look for another brand that may have a higher CCA?brbrSaw a Rockford Fosgate rated 950 and a stinger rated at 1200. Are these the better call?br
swez on 02/27/2004 13:11:21
That's pretty good for that sub amp. Your 4 channel can still be powered off the main electrical system though. That should help a lot with power distribution to the beast sub amp.
You may want to delete the CAP on your sub amp too. This takes a lot of juice to charge up repeatedly. It may be causing more harm than good.
Swez
This is my current setup
2003 Chevy Suburban LT
HU: Pioneer AVH-7500 DVD
2 JL Audio VR Series Tweeters in the front pillars facing the windshield.
2 JL Audio XR650-CSi in the front doors replacing the POS Bose factory setup.
2 JL Audio XR525-CXi Coaxial set in the rear doors
2 JL Audio TR350-CXi in the rear posts next to the hatch.
These sets are Powered by a JL Audio 450/4 Amplifier
The sub is a JL Audio ProWedge CLS112RG-W7
This is powered by a JL Audio 1000/1 Amplifier.
I have a 1 Farad Audiobahn Digital cap attached to the amlifiers.
I have 0 Gauge Stinger Pro Series wire running power from the Battery to the amplifiers which are mounted under the third row seat in a custom enclosure.
The Battery, and alternator grounds have 0 Gauge wire grounding them to the chasis.
The stock alternator is rated at 145 AMP's.
I am still using the stock battery.
The problem is when the system is played at 3/4 volume and the bass hits the dimming occurs. Also I notice a severe power drain when idling in traffic when this occurs. Voltage per the battery meter gets as low as ~10 volts before I start to turn the music down to avoid damage.
My install guys are recommending a new alternator from Stinger which costs approximately $1200 and is rated at 240 amps.
My concern is this is quite pricey for a simple alternator in my opinion. While I can afford to pay such a price for an alternator I am worried that this may not be the true problem. I have read some that the battery may truly be the problem. With this setup could the problem be cured by simply adding a more powerful battery?
I intend to add a couple headrest monitors, some neon underlighting, a playstation 2, and a navigation system. I am also thinking about adding a set of kick panels with an additional Jl Audio XR650-CSi set in it. Also a center channel speaker will be added for the better audio staging.
So as you can see the power usage for the car will be increasing beyond what is already in the car at this point in time so building for the future is the key here.
I also intend to work on the engine compartment at some later date so remaining factory like in the compartment is important so that I do not limit my options such as a supercharger and nitrous setup.
While much of this may sound like overkill my objective is to enjoy this vehicle for quite some time to come and to possible use it in some shows, mainly for SQ competitions. I appreciate the feel of the bass as well but fidelity always trumps raw power in my book.
If you have recommendations on placement as well, all advice will be accepted.
Replies (18)
uochronos on 02/25/2004 21:28:31
wow very nice set up sounds like other then the electrical youve got one killer system..
that is pricey in my opinion for a 240amp alternator.... but thats also a big brand alternator. you might look threw your local phone book. i know here in portland oregon we have at least one company that does custom alternators i'm getting a 250amp alternator for my 2003 ranger FX4 for 630$... i would not even know the existed except a good friends dad owns the place. so it may not hurt to take a whirl threw the yellow pages.
Raefin on 02/25/2004 21:36:35
I did some other research with a place called ohio generator and they have a 200 amp alternator available for $600 as well.
One other problem I failed to mention is a high pitched noise that comes from the HU after it warms up a bit. I know the fan does add some noise but this noise is very high pitched. Most people cannot even hear it but to me it is quite distinct. Any suggestions on going about rooting out the source of the problem?
swez on 02/25/2004 23:09:16
In your case, you may be better off adding a dedicated ALT & BAT for the audio/video system. Depends on how much room you have and if you are will to make such a drastic modification to your newer ride.
The 2nd electricals can power your amps and A/V gear while the stock system supports the HU and rest of the electricals. It's a cheaper option, most efficient but may have warrantee implications on a mod this exotic.
About the high pitch noise... try turning down your gains on the mids/highs amp. This may make that noise go away. If not, grounding the HU and amp that feeds the highs to same location, should clear it up.
Swez
Raefin on 02/26/2004 08:34:46
The gains are actually almost all the way down. My objective was to not push the amplifiers too much from the get go because they are not exactly cheap. The whine only starts up after driving a while so my assumption was that it is related to the fan in the HU.
I have no problem going with a second or even a third battery for the car if that is what it is going to take but setting up a two alternator system with custom belts may interfere with my intention to put a supercharger in the engine compartment. I do have quite a bit of room in the compartment but dealing with custom belts and what not seems like it could be a troublesome spot. I do not know if anyone has any experience with running a setup like that.
Of course I may have no choice is what you could be saying with respect to powering the setup properly. If that is the case do you have any recommendations on where to look to acquire such a setup?
cplkittle on 02/26/2004 09:05:47
The whine could also be attributed to a lengthy ground wire (ground loop cause of noise). Try to keep grounds under 2'.
I would try turning the gain up on the amplifiers a bit, this would eliminate the need for increased volume on the head unit, and may take out some of the noise. Also, the HU would not be working as hard by transferring some of the load to the amplifiers, and may not need the fan as often. The sound quality should not decrease in this case once the amp gains are balanced to each other, in fact, in my experience it should improve. My recommended balance point would be with the radio volume on the lowest setting (in most cases 1), from there adjust the gain on the amps so that the radio is not too loud to make a phone call or order at a drive through.
swez on 02/26/2004 09:19:27
Many of the DB Dragers use this type of arrangement. They have to as the number of sub amps employed is often 10 or more 1000 watt power plants. Yeah... WOW huh?
In your case, a good customizing shop that specializes in under the hood toys, would be a good option to start. You could also attend a few DB Drags and ask around as to how they accomplished this type of modification.
Also, would turbo charging be easier to do on this vehicle than a supercharger unit and still give the desired performance? Turbos are small, very efficient and give a nice kick of HP. Superchargers are large and bulky and need major mods in the intake system and pully mods. Either way, low compression pistons are often used in both applications if I understand their application right....it's been a while since I seen Superchargers used in place of turbos.
Lastly, you can identify that whine if it is the HU fan. A soda straw will work like a stythescope to help pinpoint the fan noise, if that is what it is. A little sound deadning material may help muffle that noise. But be careful not to block the air flows to same.
Swez
Raefin on 02/26/2004 09:28:54
Typical comfortable listening of my music is done around 5-10/40. This is when I hear the noise of the HU. If the volume is increased it overpowers the whine and you cannot discern it whatsoever from the rest of the music.
The ground wire may actually be longer than 2' due to the fact that it is a truck and has a distance to go to get to the body. I will have to check that out though.
ttocs on 02/26/2004 09:39:59
That is the exact system I have put in countless burbans at the shop I started working part time for 6 months ago... There are alot of them rolling around scottsdale, nothing less then 24's on them.... You have a spot under the hood for a second battery, and the stock system will alow for it. I wired one up last saterday for the exact problem. Get a good yellow top, replace both if you want the flash(sounds like you do). Did you fit the amps under the seat? I never worked with JL until I started at this shop. TOP OF THE LINE AMP....... They always send them off booming, never bring them back..
Raefin on 02/26/2004 09:56:44
The third row seat has just enough space to accomodate both amps side by side in a small amp rack which flushes against the bottom of the seat. Covered in vinyl to match the leather seats you cannot tell that there is anything under there for a complete stealth look.
Now with the addition of the extra battery is that sufficient to correct the dimming problem even with the addition of these extra components for the future?
Raefin on 02/26/2004 10:11:27
Swez,
The reason for the supercharger over the turbo is threefold. First, My friends and I have never owned a supercharger and have never had the chance to work on one before and would like to. Second, Our past experiences with Turbos have left a sour taste in my mouth. (My friend had an old Mitsubishi Starion with twin turbos which constantly detonated themselves, agreed user error but still) Lastly, A supercharger performs at the entire RPM range which gives heavy vehicles, such as my 6250+ lb truck more pull at low RPM's and actually increasing gas mileage in some instances. At least that is what I have read can occur.
My biggest concern is that I can go out and spend $1200 on a stinger alternator and then once the other equipment is put in that may not be enough. I am attempting to future proof as much as possible so I do not have to spend and then respend.
swez on 02/26/2004 14:14:46
Got it... planning is everything in this venture. Unfortunately, we cannot help you much on the engine mods... but the audio gear is what we do pretty well at.
Swez
riceman on 02/26/2004 16:42:36
maybe you should try using 4 gauge power wires with your setup i don't think theres no need for 0 gauge. yea it looks nice but i think its inpractical. what I'm trying to say is 4 gauge is like a garden hose and that's all you need but you put in 0 gauge that's like a firehose. the bigger the wire the more amperage it can carry and zero is the biggest you can get. try it out see if the dimming is reduced. I've noticed that once i switched to H.I.D xenon headlights the dimming in my car was drastically reduced i think the halogen bulbs were taking a heck of alot of power. my hid's power are regulated by the ballast and now my hid 's dont dim at all but there's still a little dimming on my other lights. try it out and post the results.
Relax_The_Mind on 02/26/2004 17:00:09
Superchargers are a lot more of a hassle to take care of... especially if its tweaked. Turbos come a dime a dozen nowadays and in some cases come almost as cheap as true cold air intake setups. heh...
I think you would be be better off with the dedicated A/V piggy backed alternator and battery setup as mentioned above. Some db drag cars have upwards (from what ive seen) of 13 alternators.
If that car is anything like my parents 2003 Yukon XL... You may have little options on the alternators as it is kind of cramped.
Nice ride... tvs make 13 hour roads trips feel like an hour.
RTM
Raefin on 02/26/2004 22:36:25
I am a bit worried about the two alternator setup. There is probably room to get a second one in there along with the additional battery but that is really gonna cut out some of the extra space. I liked the car as well because pretty much everything was easy enough to get to.
It should be identical to the 2003 Yukon XL though. So perhaps there isn't as much room as I am thinking there is. Been a few months since I have been in there.
I would think that the 0 gauge wire would not be causing too much of a drain on the system if only because the amplifier should only be drawing what power it needs. Also with any additional adds I will probably be using the entire 0 gauge because remember this is a Suburban so that is a long run from the engine compartment back to the third row of seats.
If I did go with a two alternator setup, would that mean two high output alternators would be necessary along with two Optima batteries?
uochronos on 02/27/2004 04:50:56
0 gauge seems fine to me especialy as far as your going you really cant go too big on the wire and your right the amps only pulling what it needs infact bigger wire threwout the system and between alternator and battery should help reduce dimming i would think... also for the size amp your running i wouldnt use less then 2gauge myself 1000watts is a good chunk of power and thats just for the sub... also 0 gauge is not the largest wire there is 00 and so on. although not used very often....
swez on 02/27/2004 12:52:42
You can try adding a 2nd battery (Optima Yellow) to the exsisting system and dedicate that battery via a battery isolator to your audio amps. It will act as a nice current storage buffer to feed the amps, but it too, needs to be charged as it gives up power to the amps. That puts additional strain on your alternator too.
However, the isolator allows the ALT to switch back and forth between battery that needs to be fed most. This may work since you have a 145A ALT now. It's worth a try... before taking the next big step... a 2nd ALT. Can run your small amps & HU/AV on stock battery feeds and the sub amp(s) off the Yellow top.
Swez
PS Get the biggest CCA rated Yellow top you can find. Not cheap.. but cheaper than a 2nd ALT.
Raefin on 02/27/2004 13:05:08
Best CCA rating on a yellow top that I see is 900. Is that good enough? Or should I look for another brand that may have a higher CCA?brbrSaw a Rockford Fosgate rated 950 and a stinger rated at 1200. Are these the better call?br
swez on 02/27/2004 13:11:21
That's pretty good for that sub amp. Your 4 channel can still be powered off the main electrical system though. That should help a lot with power distribution to the beast sub amp.
You may want to delete the CAP on your sub amp too. This takes a lot of juice to charge up repeatedly. It may be causing more harm than good.
Swez
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